Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - IDAHO STUDENT MURDERS: SUSPECT ARRESTED, CLUES LEFT BEHIND?

Episode Date: December 31, 2022

An arrest is made in the murders of four University of Idaho students. Fourty-eight days after the brutal stabbing, Bryan Kohberger, 28, was arrested early Friday morning over 2,500 miles away in Pennsylvania. Kohberger has been charged with first-degree murder and felony burglary. An extradition hearing is scheduled for Tuesday.  Police answered few questions about what led up to Kohberger’s arrest, saying Idaho law requires the arrest affidavit be sealed until the suspect is “physically back in Latah County” and officially charged.   In the meantime, Kohberger's academics are being picked apart. Kohberger graduated from Northampton Community College with an associate of arts degree in psychology.  He received a bachelor's degree and a master's degree in criminal justice from DeSales University.  Kohberger had just completed his first semester as a Ph.D. student in the Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology at Washington State University. He is also a teaching assistant there.  Joining Nancy Grace today:  Dale Carson - High-profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent & Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County); Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself,  Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University; Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet" and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan"  Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA; Twitter: @ColdCaseTips; Host of the new podcast, "Zone 7" Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Worked over 300 Homicides in his 25-year career; Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room"     Laura Ingle - Senior Correspondent, Fox News Channel, Twitter: @lauraingle, Instagram: @lauraingletv    Dave Mack – CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news now, an arrest has been made in the case of four beautiful Idaho University students massacred, we believe, in their own beds asleep. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to Chief James Fry. Last night, in conjunction with the Pennsylvania State Police, Federal Bureau of Investigation, detectives arrested 28-year-old Brian Christopher Kohlberger in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania,

on a warrant for murder of Ethan, Zaina, Madison, and Kaylee. I want to personally thank these agencies for their assistance in this case. Koberger resides in Pullman, Washington and is a graduate student at Washington State University. Since that incredible 3 a.m. ishh arrest we've learned a lot about brian christopher coberger with me an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now but first straight out to laura engel senior correspondent fox news laura thank you for being with us what can you tell us about how the arrest went down who what why when where hi, when, where? Hi, Nancy. Well, we are actually currently positioned outside the Monroe County Correctional Facility. This is a jail here in Pennsylvania where the suspect is being held until he makes his extradition court appearance on

Tuesday. You know, he was here. There are reports that he drove from Washington State to Pennsylvania sometime within the Christmas holiday. We don't know that for sure, but that are some of the reports that we're starting to hear today. But early Friday morning, like you said, around 3 a.m., Pennsylvania State Police arrived at a home here in Monroe County serving a search warrant. And we believe it was the home of his parents. And you've seen the photos by now, the aerials. It's a very large home, sprawling area, rural mountainous roads in the Pocono Mountains. They showed up 3 a.m., took him into custody. There's word that they, well, they did say that they got a white Elantra. We're not clear if it was in the driveway, but it was somewhere in

Monroe County, and it is now in police custody. And of course, we talked about how, you know, that's going to be a treasure trove of information within that car. One thing that we are just learning today, one of, you know, people are now starting to kind of come out of the woodwork, people that knew him, people that took classes with him. He went to school in Washington State, just about nine miles away from the murder scene. And the New York Post is now reporting that he attended a criminal justice class after the November 13th homicides. And they talked about this case. This is what B.K. Norton told the New York Post that he went to class and they all sat around talking about it. They say that he was quiet

and deadpan and that they were discussing just how the murders had taken place, how crazy it was they had no information, and that they were all hoping they were safe. He's telling the New York Post today, little did we know the murderer was among us. That's a quote from the Post there. So right now he is in this jail. It holds about 400 inmates, maximum and minimum security. We've reached out to the parents who do live here for a comment. We have not been able to get through to them. While he did have that apartment in Washington State, he is registered to vote here. This is technically the address that he has is here in Pennsylvania. So we're digging around more to find out or talk to people who knew him, who went to school with him. And police said in that press conference Friday night that they want to know, if you know this guy, if you know Brian, please come forward.

We want to talk to you about what he was talking about around the times of the murder, how he was acting, where he was going. They say this is a whole new chapter. They still have a lot of information they're trying to get. Now we've got that name in the face. They hope more people will come forward. Laura Engel, I saw that quote by a fellow student, B.K. Norton, and I noticed, Laura Engel, that the student also said this guy had always been pretty taciturn, pretty quiet, but that he was, he, the defendant, was more animated following the murders and that whenever they would have a class discussion, remember this is, you know, less than 12 miles away from the murders and that whenever they would have a class discussion, remember this is,

you know, less than 12 miles away from the murders. He's at Washington State University getting his PhD in criminology, that whenever that would be brought up, the murders would be brought up, he would go completely quiet and quote, deadpan, would never interject anything he thought about the murders at all. Complete radio silence whenever that was brought up. Did you see that, Laura Engel? I did see that, and I thought it was really interesting. And the idea of him being animated after the murders, you know, being the main suspect in this case, thinking about, you know, did he think he got away with something? Did he think that he was going to get away with it? And then possibly sitting back in that criminal justice class and just kind of, you know, everybody that has talked about knowing him say that he always felt

like he wanted to be kind of the smartest guy in the room. He always wanted to over explain things that he knew about wanting to make sure that everybody knew what his level of intelligence was. So, you know, I can, you can only imagine that he's sitting back in that class, maybe arms crossed, maybe just like taking it all in, seeing what people are saying about the murders as he's kind of digesting what the perception was. Yeah, he is by no means an idiot, because, you know, I was looking online to Cheryl McCollum, founder, director of the Cold Case Research Institute at coldcasecrimes.org. We know that he got an associate's degree, a two-year degree at a local community college in Pennsylvania. Then he goes on to DeSales University, also in Pennsylvania, and he gets his B.A. or was it a B.S. in criminology.

He was on the dean's list. Then he gets his master's degree in criminal justice, also at DeSales. Then he, let's see, no, he gets his master's degree at WSU, Washington State University, nine miles from the murder scene. Then starts his doctorate, and he actually was a teaching assistant, which is very common when you're getting your Ph.D. They'll throw a little money, the school will throw a little money at you, or you might get a scholarship or a stipend if you're a teaching assistant.

You know, teach classes, help other students. I can't wait to hear what the students have to say that studied under him, Cheryl McCollum. So this guy is no idiot at all. Oh, he's not an idiot, Nancy. But again, he's not experienced in the ways that matter as far as forensics and leaving things that a crime scene goes the students are going to have unbelievable testimony about things that he said things that he was interested in and i'm telling you there will be a plethora of information in that house can you imagine from getting his, you know, associate's degree to working on a PhD, how much writing he did. Oh, gosh, yes.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I've got to throw this to Karen Stark. With me is high-profile psychologist joining us out of Manhattan, Karen Stark at karenstark.com. That's Karen with a C. Karen, listen to this. I don't know if you were with us watching last night. We did a full hour at 10 p.m. last night on Fox about this, about this case. And Karen, I know you heard us talking about this.

As part of his criminology degree, Karen Stark, he actually sent out reportedly, you know, it is attributed to him on Reddit and other places, a questionnaire to violent offenders. Think murderers, rapists, child molesters, asking questions like, oh gosh, I made a huge long list. What was your first move in achieving your goal? What was your thought process when you left the scene? How did you leave the scene? Did you know the victim? How did you approach the victim? It's like a how-to. He was asking other criminals, violent offenders, basically, hey, what were you thinking when you murdered that little old lady or when you raped that little kid? And feeding off of it and learning from their answers, Karen Stark. And Nancy, things like what did you do with the murder weapon?

If you used something, what did you use? I read the whole entire thing. Oh, Karen Stark, you're so right about the murder weapon. Note to self, read all the answers from criminals that responded about what they did

with the murder weapon and then use those answers to try to find the murder weapon. Okay, go ahead. What he was doing, and I don't think I've ever heard anything like this before nancy this is a really talk about brilliant even though cheryl's right he made mistakes at the crime scene but this guy was actually teaching himself how he would be able to commit a crime he was asking people who had done it, how did you feel?

What did you do? So that he could learn and believe me, the whole time he would read those answers, he was plodding in his head and getting really excited about the prospect of trying all this out. You just poured gas on the fire. That is Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author. I mean, it's so long I can't even get through his credentials. I mean, really, you know what? Shorten your resume, please, Joe Scott. Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon.

Great, by the way. Host of a brand new hit series, Body Bags of Joseph Scott Morgan on iHeart and so forth and so on. Okay, by the way. Host of a brand new hit series, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on iHeart and so forth and so on. Okay, you're brilliant. Alright, Joe Scott Morgan, now that I've fed your ego for this morning, did you hear what Karen Stark and Sheryl McCullen both said? Yes,

he may be smart, but no, this is one of your quotes. You quote somebody else that every action, every action leaves behind a trace. What's your quote that you always throw at me? Yeah, Edmond LeCard, the godfather of forensic science. Every contact leaves a trace. He said that over 100 years ago, Nancy, and here we are.

One of these days, Jessica Morgan, when we're on together, I'm going to give that quote and the origination and act like it's all mine and just see how you respond. It's my community. It'll be the community. You're absolutely correct. Explain. Yeah, here we are on the brink of 2023. And that still applies everywhere he went,

every contact that he made in that scene. And of course, in that car, the car is a big piece to this. He's leaving something behind, not just of himself, but everything that he brought out of that house, any kind of biological sample, blood, hair, any kind of trace elements would have been transferred over to that vehicle. And Nancy, trust me on this, please, I beg you. In a case like this, where you have sharp force injuries, and you multiply that by a factor of four people, and multiple stab wounds, he will be just absolutely super saturated in blood that would have been transferred somewhere into that vehicle in any other environment that he may have entered into and so that is going to be a tie back and i was amazed absolutely amazed yesterday when they said hey we've got a dna

profile on this guy amazing it was It was. It was absolutely amazing. That's my biggest takeaway. Guys, I'm going to go to an incredible guest, Chris McDonough, and a high profile lawyer out of Jackson, former FBI Dale Carson. But I've got to circle back right here to Cheryl McCollum. Not only is she founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, she's a forensic expert. And she is now the host and star of a new hit series. It's a podcast called Zone 7. Cheryl McCullum, I got a ton of questions, but I couldn't look at them while you and I were on air together last night.

I saw them all after. I wish I could have looked at them because one of them is really good. I think I touched on this but then dropped it to go on to something else last night. There's a very strong likelihood that at least one, if not more, of the victims, these beautiful, oh gosh, they're not that older than my twins, Cheryl. They're the age of your children, Cheryl. Did you think about that? The victims are the age of your children, Cheryl. Did you think about that? The victims are the age of your children?

Anyway, I was wondering if any of them fought back, would his body still, the defendant's body, still have scratches, bruises on the body 47 days later? And I came to the conclusion very quickly that they would be gone. Then somebody wrote in, unless he cut himself with the knife. So what about that, Cheryl McCollum? Well, knives get very slippery when they get blood all over them. And a lot of times the perpetrators will injure themselves either because their hand slips on the knife or when they're grabbing the victim with their

non-dominant hand and then stabbing, they will stab their non-dominant hand. So that's one thing that investigators are going to be looking for. The second thing is these students, these other classmates, they may have noticed a black eye or a scratch on his face or scratch on his neck or scratches on his hands and arms so there may be other witnesses out there and that i'll tell you what he kind of reminds me of israel keys israel king rot in hell for all eternity he absolutely rot in hell for all eternity but he studied ted bundy as you know and he kind of upped his game a little bit by having those caches and stuff but let me tell you he made a mistake this freak serial killer israel keys last known victim samantha koenig uh barista out of alaska actually had kill kits all across the country that would have what he thought he needed to commit and cover up murders.

Freak. Okay, go ahead. But when it came down to it, as much planning and studying as he did, he made a mistake at an ATM with the victim's card. So that's what I'm telling you. Idiot. But when they're not a, you know, real criminal, they don't have that type of mind to get away with things, they make these mistakes, and this is what I see in my spouse. Hey, you know, Jackie, here in the studio with me, you're making a very, very sour, kind of a bitter face right now. I hope it's not at me. I hope it's at the defendant.

At the victim. I mean, the defendant. The defendant. Okay. Good to know. Of course, you and I intimately know the case of Israel Keyes and Samantha Koenig. Okay, guys. Hold on, Dale Carson.

I cannot believe you have not injected yourself yet. You must be. Well, I wanted to say something about Cheryl. Just as I was about to go to Chris McDonough. See how polite he's being? Just a, you know, go-to. Okay, go ahead, Dale Carson. High-profile lawyer. Join him out of Jacksonville. But this is the reason I really love Carson, because he's a former FBI agent and cop in Miami-Dade, where there is never a lack of business. Author of Arrest Proof Yourself at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Okay, hit me.

All right, so Cheryl is a most remarkable person on this probe. Cheryl is, and I'll tell you why. She pointed out early on that that white car, nobody had called police to say it was theirs. And then yesterday, most elegantly, she said this. She said, just because you can read the recipe for a cake doesn't mean you can bake one. And that's certainly true with this guy. He may have had all that information from all these sources, but he'd never made a cake. And that's what allowed him, as Cheryl pointed out, to get caught ultimately

because just because you can make the cake, read the directions, doesn't mean that you can kill the people and get away with it. You know, that brings me to a point, and you're absolutely correct. Chris McDonough is with me, director at the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective. I found him as I was going deep, deep, deep, deep on the Internet looking at anything about Idaho murders. And I found him on his YouTube channel, The Interview Room. And I was completely, I think I watched his drive-thru of Moscow.

Guys, correct me. Is it Moscow or Moscow? Moscow. Moscow? Moscow. Okay, what? Yeah. Moscow? Moscow. Okay, what? Yeah, Moscow. Okay, I'm glad you told me that because I must have said Moscow one time last night.

I had about 50 responses on Twitter alone about what an idiot I was for saying Moscow. Okay, Moscow, thank you. They were right. Everybody was right, and I was wrong. Chris McDonough with me, host of The Interview Room. Your drive through Moscow. I watched that, I don't know how many times, over and over. And it's like, what is it, an hour and 45 minutes long?

You're not one for brevity, thank God in heaven. Because I want to just soak in every single detail. He's going about two miles an hour down main street and Moscow. And then he turns left at a gas station. You can, you see everything in such incredible detail. And he's got, I think your wife, the lady you keep calling honey, both of you were chiming in like, look at that, look at this, look at that, look at this. It was incredibly helpful. That aside, Chris, what do you make of the fact that now we know for sure that this guy, okay, Koberger, went back to class.

Think about it, Jackie. He goes back to class after a quadruple homicide and sits in class like, do-do-do-do, nothing's wrong, continues as normal, SOP, and they're talking about the case, the murders in class. They're talking about the white Elantra, and there he is with a white Elantra, and it never occurred to him, wow, I should go tell them I have a white Elantra so they can rule me out. Right? He never said a word, Chris. Yeah, Nancy, I mean, pretty interesting, right?

And I think we get a clue of that early on in some of the press conferences, a comment that the chief made. Remember early on he came out and said to the public, if you see any shifts in behavior of people around you, that would be a red flag for them, right, to call the authorities at that point. And so I think, you know, we've been right on target with this guy and, you know, in this panel discussion here for the weeks now that this guy has been sitting back watching all of this and quite frankly, you know, perhaps, you know, getting a great deal of satisfaction out of, you know, just the ability to sit there like a chameleon in plain sight. And, you know, the doc can measure that in relationship to his ego. But I think it's fascinating that the guy did not step forward.

Absolutely. I wish I could focus more on what you're saying, Chris McDonough, but Jackie here in the studio, it's hard to focus when you see a piece of paper going back and forth like that over in the corner. So I finally have to look at her. And she actually has a point. What about the fact, Dave Mack joining me from CrimeOnline.com, is it true, Dave Mack, that there are reports upon his arrest around 3 a.m. in the morning, which is quite a coincidence that the murders occurred around 3 a.m.? Jackie, you get credit for that, 3 a.m. in the morning, which is quite a coincidence that the murders occurred around 3 a.m.

Jackie, you get credit for that, 3 a.m. in the morning. He said, has anybody else been arrested? Did he say that? Is that a correct report, Dave Mack? That has not been confirmed from anything I've seen yet, Nancy. Was it reported, Dave Mack? It was reported that he said it, not confirmed. Okay, gotcha.

Okay, that is very unusual why he would say that. But I want you to take a listen to Hour Cut 199. This is Chief James Fry of the Moscow, Idaho Police. Listen. This was a very complex and extensive case. We developed a clear picture over time and we stand assured that the work is not done, but be assured the work is not done. This has just started. Since November, we have remained laser focused on pursuing every lead

in our pursuit of justice for the victims and their families. I recognize the frustration with the lack of information that's been released. However, providing any details in this criminal investigation might have tainted the upcoming criminal prosecution or alerted the suspect of our progress. We will continue to provide as much information as we can as the process moves forward. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This was a very complex and extensive case. We developed a clear picture over time, and we stand assured that the work is not done. Be assured the work is not done.

This has just started. Since November, we have remained laser-focused on pursuing every lead in our pursuit of justice for the victims and their families. I recognize the frustration with the lack of information that's been released. However, providing any details in this criminal investigation might have tainted the upcoming criminal prosecution or alerted the suspect of our progress. We will continue to provide as much information as we can as the process moves forward. And I understand, to Dale Carson, high-profile lawyer out of Jacksonville,

former FBI, that we may see the probable cause, in other words, the ingredients that went into the arrest. Why police thought that this is the guy that committed the quadruple killing at the time he arrives back in Idaho. What do you think about that? Well, that makes perfect sense. And of course, there's a supporting document, as you well know, called an affidavit for probable cause that a judge has to look at and agree that there's sufficient probable cause to issue a warrant or make an arrest. Now, in this particular case, we know that there's a state warrant and there was a federal warrant as well. So both of those warrant systems allow access to electronic monitors and other things through the court system. So there's going to be a plethora of

information that develops once he's back in Moscow. Another thing, in addition to correcting me when I said Moscow, the social media, let me just say viewers, also pointed out that I was trying and convicting Koberger before we've even struck a jury. That's not true. I was accused of convicting the Duke lacrosse players, but I would like to point out that my opinions were based on what the district attorney, the rape kit nurse, and the victim, the alleged rape victim on with me. The afternoon, one of the lacrosse players gave a statement, actually spoke in front of reporters. I immediately said, that is the state's worst nightmare because I believe that the lacrosse player, he was, I think he was even taking questions. He was truthful. He was forthcoming. And also, I remember in the Elizabeth Smart case, I was accused of convicting Richie. And what I had always said is he makes the perfect suspect.

Not that I thought he was guilty. But when I actually met and spoke to his wife one night on Larry King, I'm like, I believe her. I think she's telling the truth about his alibi. That's just, you know, the state needs to rethink the case. In this case, we are going forward. We are proceeding with what we know right now. I think it goes without saying that everyone is presumed innocent and that we have to have a jury trial before there's a conviction. So I thought that that was just a given, but apparently not. In the meantime, take a listen to our cut 203, Bill Thompson, the local prosecutor. As far as Mr. Kohlberger, I can share with you that he is a graduate student at Washington State University and has an apartment residence over at Pullman. He has had an initial appearance

in front of a judge in Pennsylvania. He is being held without bond, and the warrant from our magistrate judge here also provides for no bond. We understand that he's scheduled to be back in court in Pennsylvania next Tuesday afternoon, and that a public defender has been appointed for him there. The process at this point is since he was arrested in another state, he has the opportunity to either waive extradition and return voluntarily to the state of Idaho, or if he prefers not to waive extradition, then we will initiate extradition proceedings through our governor's office. If we do that, it can take a while for him to get here. Of course, you know, we all know Chris McDonough from the Cold Case Foundation. Extradition is a very short proceeding. It's not, are you guilty or innocent? It's nothing

even touching on guilt or innocence. It's very simply, hey, are you Chris McDonough? That's all I need to know, because we've got a warrant for you, if you're Chris McDonough, out of Idaho for a quadruple slaying. All I need to know right here in Pennsylvania is, are you Chris McDonough? That's it. Are you? And if you are wise, you'll go, yes, I am. Because if you won't answer or say no or don't waive extradition, all they do is they get your five fingers and they do a print right there in court and compare it to a fingerprint sent

over from elsewhere. And if you match, you match and you're sent whether you like it or not. It's just very simply a transmittal type of hearing. Usually lasts, I've done a million, I'm about 15 minutes. Would you agree with that, Chris McDonough? Absolutely, Nancy. And I think what's going to be interesting is to see how he does answer that question, right? And I read an interesting article last night. It was a letter to the editor from one of his family members, actually his mother, where she complained about the death penalty. And this was previous to obviously his arrest. So I wonder if that's going to play into any of this, to your point, in the courtroom.

So that's something to just kind of look out for for speaking of the mom and what we know about the family i gotta tell you something uh cheryl mccollum did you see where they lived i understand i think lauren engel told me last night it was in a gated community those are huge homes huge lots at least an acre to two acres, maybe 1.8 acres, judging on the aerial, with wooded lawns. They're grass lawns with wooded acreage between the homes. That is some setup, kind of a silver spoon-ish situation. It's a great setup, but it's also a great setup for somebody that's got things to hide. So I would be interested if there's any sheds on the property, if there's a place that he used to go and hang out alone. People gravitate after they commit crimes to

places that are comfortable for them, where they have the home field advantage. So there are things on that property that would be, I think, interesting to law enforcement. And I want to say one more thing. If he, in fact, did say, has anybody else been arrested, he would be worried about his mom. There's no way that she wasn't completely focused on what was happening near his college and what happened to those kids. And then she knew the car too. And she knew that car was out in her driveway. So if she helped him as an accessory after the fact, he knows that. So he may have been worried about her. There's not a second killer here. I found it very difficult to believe,

Cheryl McCollum. I agree with you. Let me throw this to Joe Scott Morgan from Jacksonville State University and Body Bags. Joe Scott, given that we thought, we're told, at the beginning, the same type of knife wounds were on all four victims, that indicated one murder weapon, hence one murderer. I agree with Cheryl McCollullum i don't think that the question has anybody else been arrested necessarily means there was another person at the killing or taking part in the killing i agree with cheryl you know the parents had to see he's got a white elantra right out of the park right out of the driveway for pete's sake yeah and there would have been observable behavior upon his arrival back home. Was he acting more oddly than normal within that family?

And unless you're living under a rock, you're aware of this case. And to Cheryl's point, the fact that he was in such close proximity, I don't know if people appreciate the geography here. From WSU to U of I, you can walk that distance. I mean, you literally can. I mean, it's that close. So you're telling me that she had no awareness here. And that's going to be key.

I want to know, but one from a forensic standpoint, one of the things that I'm very interested in regarding this car, he had this car for days and days post-homicide. I want to know what's been done with the car in that period of time. Is there a record that he had it cleaned? Is there CCTV imagery of him going to a car wash, vacuuming the thing out, purchasing supplies to clean this thing with because it's been in his control all of this period of time. But I can tell you this, he didn't get everything out of there. I promise you that.

Oh, no. No way could he get everything out. Jump in. Oh, Karen Stark, I was just about to go to you about his, these are their words, not mine, his fastidious and obsessive compulsive issues regarding his eating. He was a devout vegan. And hey, don't knock it. I went vegetarian for two years when I was at Court TV, believe it or not. But he insisted their words were forced. His parents

to throw out their old pots and pans because they had come in contact with meat. Now, of course, that's not new that vegans don't want to use pots and pans that have been in touch with meat. But you don't have to have your parents throw them out like you can't stand them to even be in the same kitchen. Well, that just makes me, I'm not surprised. I mean, you have to have a little bit of obsessive compulsive behavior to be able to be in a graduate program. I mean, think about law school. I mean, you really have to be organized and it tends to develop in students. But given that, I was also thinking about the fact that he said, was anyone else arrested?

And I don't know, perhaps it was his family, but I really believe that's his arrogance, that it was much more about, hey, did you make any mistakes? Just his curiosity. Well, I want to pick up on what you're saying, Karen Stark. Exactly, yeah. Because let's follow that through to its logical conclusion. If he is obsessive-compulsive, as one aunt of his who refused to be named

called him obsessive-compulsive, Chris McDonough, that could really help this case. What if he was obsessive compulsive about these murders? And can't you just see him studying all those questionnaires that the criminals wrote back, studying their techniques and actually like working himself into a frenzy and then committing the crime. Obsessive compulsive could go two ways. He could have either obsessively and compulsively planned the murders. Do you remember the murder of Bonnie Lee Bakley? Which, by the way, Robert Blake did it. I know he was acquitted, but he totally did it. And he had his henchmen, and they actually wrote out a list.

We need lye. We need tarps. We need tarps. We need shovels. The gun. Blah, blah, blah. They wrote a list. Hello. And it was found.

All right. That was a bad idea. It could go that way where there's so much evidence they find in his Pullman apartment or online, or he could have been obsessive compulsive about cleaning it all away. So what about that, Chris? Yeah, Nancy, I think this guy lives, it appears that he lived such a mechanical existence, right, to your thought process there. And so that's why I feel that his research is going to be really interesting to discover, you know, what type of individuals he

was connecting with. And what I find, and I'm just going to say this out loud here, but one of the things that I'm really curious about is this idea that, you know, he's a masked murderer at this point. And is he morphing into a serial? I.e., you know, he's gotten away with this in his mind. He gets there and he's sitting back, you know, taking this all in. And to that methodical process, was he studying individuals? Let's use BTK for an example. Was he studying him as a, you know, almost a mentor? And what I find interesting is his initials.

His name is Brian Christopher, you know, Colbert, right? But you look at his initials, BCK, BCK. So we take out the T and we have a BK. And so there's, I'm just curious, and I'm just, you you know thinking out loud here is that somewhere in his research study somewhere that he's obsessed with this type of individuals you know uh following your train of thought it would be very interesting to find out if if during the course of his studies he made contact with other killers and spoke to them through phone calls, email, so forth. We understand that he was relatively silent on social media. I also saw reports that he followed Maddie on Instagram,

so that's not consistent. We'll know more and more and more, but we do know this. Take a listen to our cut 214, our friends at WPVI Philly. The neighbor tells us she didn't know Brian Koberger but had seen him in and out of the house in recent weeks. She says his parents were a very sweet couple but kept to themselves. Authorities say Koberger is a PhD student at Washington State University in Pullman not far from the University of Idaho campus. Authorities are searching his Washington State apartment. Police in Idaho believe they have their man, but did not release motive or details of the crime. They say this investigation is not over and want people to come forward and provide information about Koberger.

Anyone who knows about this individual to come forward, call the tip line. They're still wanting information. If you've got it, tip line 208-883-7180. Repeat 208-883-7180. They want to flesh out their case. Guys, what did they have to make them arrest Koberger? Okay, jump in, Joe Scott Morgan. What do you think they had? Well, obviously, they've got the DNA that they've developed along the way, but I got to make a statement. I'm going to give credit to Mac on this, Nancy. She and I had a conversation at about 11 o'clock last night. You know what? We find it. Why the hey, did you do it at 11 o'clock?

You had 10 to 11 with me on Fox, for Pete's sake. And you save it. And you have your discussion at 1101. Okay, go ahead. You were working us hard. Hey, listen. Mac and I had a conversation. And this is what we concluded.

Who in the world starts killing when they're almost 30 years of age? Who does that like this? And, you know, you begin to think about what does he have in his history? You know, I know that you're referring to what do they have in order to affect an arrest on this guy. But what does he have lurking in his past that suddenly he would kick off, not with one, not with two, not with three, but four, four. Yeah, he went from zero to 100 MPH in 60 seconds.

I hear you. Hey, question. Go ahead, whoever that is. It's either Carol or Cheryl. Karen or Cheryl. Jump in. Yeah. When you're talking about being obsessed, even if he had no crimes, which would be hard to believe, like animals or something, and here's the guy's a vegan, but he was obsessed, Nancy, in criminology. And in this particular case,

it was, I have no doubt, he just sat there and was planning something. And he went back and he finished the semester. He didn't just go back to that class, but he finished the semester. He sat there,

he had a good hand look in his eyes, and he was enjoying every single moment of knowing that he was the one that did that. I notice he is wearing a pickle suit, also known as a Bam Bam, a suicide smock. We've had no indication that he has suicidal ideation, but we do know that's SOp in cases like this jump in quickly you know listen we're forgetting one thing he's gone through all this professional training in policing what an excellent idea to run a test an actual test to see if he can do something and promote himself in this environment of policing and phd in a way that turns this into an experiment.

Oh, please stop. Because that is a very scary proposition, Dale Carson, and is entirely possible. Guys, we hope that all will be made known. I believe the hearing is this Tuesday, correct, Jackie? Yes. Where we hope that the probable cause affidavit supporting his arrest warrant will be unsealed. But for right now, all we can do is continue to pray for justice and for the victims' families. People say they've got closure now.

This is just the first step in a very, very long and painful journey for them. Nancy Grace, Calm Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.