Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - IDAHO STUDENTS MURDERS: Inside The Investigation

Episode Date: November 29, 2022

Classes have resumed at the University of Idaho. It's been two weeks since four students were found stabbed to death inside their home and seemingly little progress has been made in finding the killer. Even though security has been tightened on campus, many students are not returning, preferring to complete the semester through remote learning. Meanwhile, investigators are sifting through more than 700 tips, 100 pieces of evidence, and 4,000 photos looking for evidence.  Joining Nancy Grace:  David Leroy - Attorney at Law (Boise, ID), Former Idaho Attorney General, Former Idaho Lieutenant Governor & Former Prosecutor (Ada County); Facebook.com/BoiseCriminalDefense Dr. Jorey Krawczyn - Psychologist (Panama City Beach, FL), Adjunct Faculty with Saint Leo University; Research Consultant with Blue Wall Institute, Author: "Operation S.O.S.”  Kathleen Canning-Mello - Instructor, the University of North Carolina at Wilmington; Former FBI Unit Chief, including 10 years assigned to the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Nicholas Bogel-Burroughs - National Reporter, The New York Times; Twitter: @NickAtNews   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. No motive, no murder weapon, no suspect. What are we talking about? This. This hour, we are tracking breaking news. Just a moment ago ago Moscow police confirmed four people were found dead in a home just steps away from the University of Idaho campus. Right now we're continuing to work to get more details tonight. We know that students

were ordered to shelter in place for a time this afternoon because of the scene's proximity to campus. Breaking news out of Moscow, Idaho. The bodies of four University of Idaho students discovered in a house just steps away from campus. Those students were discovered just yesterday afternoon in a neighborhood near Greek Row on campus. Earlier today, the university released the identities of the victims found in that house. 20-year-old Ethan Chapin from Conway, Washington. 21-year-old Madison Mogan from Coeur d'Alene. 20-year-old Ethan Chapin from Conway, Washington. 21-year-old Madison Mogan from Coeur d'Alene. 20-year-old Zanna Zerdodal from Post Falls. And 21-year-old Kaylee Gonzalez from Rathdrum, Idaho. You were just hearing our friends at KREM. At this hour, the mystery

surrounding the knife murders of four young students at University of Idaho still unsolved. As a matter of fact, in the last hours, we are learning new information about the quadruple murder of these young students. According to Steve Gonsalves, the father of Kaylee. He says, quote, the murders were fast. No one suffered or felt pain. He shares how his daughter came home in an urn. Listen. Steven Zolfa is the father of one of the victims, 21-year-old Kaylee, now shedding new light on what happened that night in his first sit-down interview.

It was fast and nobody suffered and nobody felt like that kind of pain. Officials maintain the murders happened between 3 and 4 a.m. and that the first 911 call was made around noon. Just hours later, Steve was informed of his daughter's death, not by police, but by family members on campus. Let's call Maddie. And then you realize Maddie's gone too. Madison Mogan was Kaylee's lifelong best friend. You can't imagine sending your girl to college and then they come back in a, you know, in an urn. And now the families of the victims growing frustrated by the lack of answers. I haven't earned the ability to grieve the way that I want to grieve.

I want to be able to have justice first. That from our friends at GMA. As pressure is mounting and fears swirling the university community, we still have no line on a suspect. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. We do know, however, certain individuals have been ruled out. Take a listen to Captain Roger Lanier. We do not believe the following individuals are involved in this crime.

The two surviving roommates, a male seen at the grub truck food vendor downtown, specifically wearing a white hoodie. A private party who provided rides home to Kaylee and Madison in the early morning hour of November 13th. Additionally, the identity of the 911 caller and the 911 call have not been released. So any information out there is speculation about that. Joining me in All-Star Panel to make sense of what we know right now, we do know the 911 call has not yet been released. And in the last hours, Chief James Fry from the Moscow police tries to answer that question. Listen. Gotti Schwartz, NBC News.

Just following up on the 911 call, you said that you don't believe that's the killer. Can you conclusively rule out the person that called 911 from inside the home as a suspect in this case? Can you go ahead and just ask that one more time, please? The person that was inside the home that called 911 that was not one of the roommates, can you conclusively rule that person out as a suspect at this point? I don't think I said that it wasn't one of the roommates. Can you conclusively rule that person out as a suspect at this point? I don't think I said that it wasn't one of the roommates. I said that it was used with the roommate's phone. I believe somebody asked if that was the killer and you said no. No, that's correct. Bottom line, the 911 call has not yet been released. So what do we know? First of all, to Nicholas Bogle Burroughs, national reporter, New York Times, joining us. He

is there on the scene in Moscow. Nicholas, thank you for being with us. What is the latest? Seemingly, all the news we're getting out of Idaho is that we don't have any news. Yeah, I mean, it's this investigation is now in the third week. Students are coming back to campus in Moscow. A lot of them told me yesterday they're really scared. They are taking all kinds of extra precautions. But like you're saying, the police have really given no solid information about who might have done this or why at this point. I want to go straight out to a special guest joining us, Kathleen Canning-Millow, former FBI unit chief, 31 years, 10 of those with a behavioral analysis unit, currently Instructor University, North

Carolina, Wilmington. Kathleen, thank you so much for being with us. I know you just heard our friend from the New York Times joining us from Moscow. He's saying we don't know who the suspect could be. Now, compared to you, we're all amateurs, but I think we can go out on a limb and say it is a white male because typically killers kill within their own race and because women typically statistically do not commit mass murder with a knife which narrows it down to a white male within the orbit of at least one of these four victims you're the expert i want to hear your analysis to me all of the information thus far points to a mass killing event. So what do we know about mass killings? Mass killings are the killings of three or more people during an event with no

cooling off period, right? And what is the motive for mass killing? Typically, it's a revenge motive, which is, I think, why the police came out early saying it's a targeted attack. And oftentimes the initial stimulus for this uncontained rage of probably, like you're saying, Nancy, a white male, is a perception of some real or imagined shame-producing injury or insult or disappointment that possibly one of the victims had made, whether it was a side comment to this individual, they may have known this individual or may not have. It could have been a stranger that they had made a comment to. And what we know about mass killers is they are often injustice collectors, right? So this was just one more insult on top of many insults this person has experienced.

And that person feels like vengeance is their only retribution. But I think there are some things that we can say that I think the public can help, right? What we know about mass killers is oftentimes they leak, right? What do we mean by leak? It means they give information about their intended plans, whether that be via social media postings or via poetry or writings or drawings, that other people may observe or may have observed before the attack occurred. And we do know that mass killers usually plan their activity. So I think there's some information that we can try to get from the public. We can talk about post-offense behavior as well that other people may have observed and maybe they unknowingly didn't, you know, connect.

So that's sort of my initial standing on this case. Wow, that's like drinking from the fire hydrant right there. That was a lot of information. Too much, too fast. I tried to take in everything you were saying. I see one issue, and I'm sure you can explain this. I'm going to go to Dr. Jory Crosby and joining us, psychologist, professor, St. Leo University and author. Dr. Jory, I hear what Kathleen Canning Mello, former FBI behavioral analyst, said that this activity could have been planned, which means the perp brought the knife and planned to lash out at one target.

On the other hand, how does that jive with the theory that this was a rage killing? Because when you're in a rage, you're not really planning anything. Well, you have to understand rage. Anger is different than rage. What brings about rage is what's called a paranoia shift. I'll tell you what, you know, Crossin and Canning Mello, I can't take the notes as quickly as you're talking. Okay, I feel like I'm back in law school. Okay, wait a minute did you say

what shifting a paranoid shifting paranoid shifting shifting okay everybody start taking notes because i cannot keep up with these two go go go go what she was also describing was the like say anarchistic personality they have a wounded ego they will carry that and that festers and that's where you know if they get a target and it can be something as simple as looking across the bar and somebody just giving you a bad look if you're a narcissistic you know individual that could wound your ego and you could become very violent I, we've had bar fights and murders on that type of behavior and that response. You know, I want to also clarify the difference between an incel, which Kathleen Canning-Millow

mentioned, involuntary celibate. That theory has come up several times that is the killer, an involuntary celibate who basically sees the world through the lens of misogyny, hating women. And it's really odd. My son and daughter, their twins are 15, and my son came home the other day and was talking about one of his friends who seems perfectly wonderful. And the friend said, all women are liars they're

all deceivers because he basically got turned down a couple of times for hoko translation homecoming all right so he's just a kid already thinking women are deceivers and I've been researching incels and they have names uh stereotypical names like someone is a Stacy uh certain guys jocks have their name and it's just fueled with hatred I'm not so sure this is an incel since they're few and far between that actually commit murder or someone that as dr jory crawson and kathleen kenning mellow were pointing out were and i'm using quotas insulted probably not really insulted but in their minds they were insulted or rejected crime stories with nancy grace joe scott morgan joining me professor forensics jacksonville state university author of blood beneath my My Feet on Amazon,

and star of a hit series, Body Bags, with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, you heard Kathleen and Dr. Jory speaking. How does their analysis jive with what we know about the scene? Well, from my perspective, what I'm taking away from this is that I believe that the individual showed up purposed. They had this knife because they're given a very specific description of this weapon. I think that they showed up with this weapon in hand in order to essentially commit a slaughter in here. So you think they showed up meaning to kill more than one person or meaning to kill the target? I think probably killing the target. And I think perhaps that everybody else was peripheral. But while they were there, I don't know if someone alerted

to the presence. Joe Scott, wait a minute. Hold on. I need your analysis. But to Nicholas Bogle Burroughs, joining me, national reporter, New York Times, there on the scene. Nicholas, I want to analyze what Joe Scott just said. I don't see how the others could be alerted because based on what the coroner said, some of them were asleep. Some of them fought back. Some of them obviously were in bed at the time. So if they had been alerted, they wouldn't have still been in bed, would they? I mean, are you getting any information? What can you tell us or refresh our recollection regarding where the victims were?

Right. So this home in Moscow, it's just off campus. It's a three-story home. There are two bedrooms on each floor. And what we've heard from the authorities is that all four victims were found on the second and third floors. We don't know exactly which bedrooms. And we know that the coroner has said that she believes that they were likely all sleeping at the time of the attack. She has also said that at least one of them appeared to have fought back.

So what that means to me is that they were all asleep when this attack occurred, but maybe one of them woke up during the attack and tried to defend themselves. But we know that there were the two surviving roommates elsewhere in the home. And that, as I'm sure you've talked about a lot, they did not realize that this had happened until hours later. And so based on what Nicholas Bogle Burroughs is stating, Joe Scott, I don't think they were alerted because they were still in their beds. And plus you have to think about the structure of the split level, Nancy. That's really interesting. If we could get our control room to show, there's one particular picture, Jackie, if you could send that again right now. And it's really good, Joe Scott.

It shows, you can look at this house and David Leroy joining me, high profile lawyer out of Boise, Idaho, former Idaho attorney general, former lieutenant governor, former prosecutor. You can find him at DLeroy.com. David, you're very familiar with this house. You've been in the house. And I noticed that, David, if you look at it from one angle, you're coming in on the floor where there's a sliding glass door. You don't really even see the bottom floor. If you come in from the first level, there's two ways to get to it. The first level, you see the, I guess call it the front door with the code you have to use to get in. I believe the killer came in through the second

level, which was also ground level. I like that picture, Haley, where it shows level one, two, and three. I mean, the sliding glass door of the second level was actually at ground level, as was the first floor front door. But you come, it's a split level home. You come in from two vantage points, from two entrances. And I believe the killer never went downstairs to the, I guess I would say, basement level where the other two roommates were asleep. David Leroy, usually I'm coming to you for legal analysis, but you have actually been here at this home. Could you describe any better what I'm trying to say? No, Nancy, your deduction is very logical. What is not always apparent in the photographs, but is likely in the one you're

showing, is that this house is set against a hill. So it has, with a rather steep incline, a front part structure, rectangular in nature, and then a back part that's almost two structures built together. And there are two ground level entries. It's just that they're on different levels. The second, third level, the sliding door you're talking about, being perhaps eight or ten feet higher than that,

the lower level with the pad that you call the front door. It is a split-level residence, but almost two residences in the way it's constructed. And I think that's led to a lot of confusion. Nicholas Buggleboro is with us there on the scene from the New York Times. He is a national reporter for them. Nicholas, you really have to look at it from both angles to see what we're talking about. But I kept, you know, turning this around like a Rubik's Cube until I saw the correct angle. Because I guarantee you, Nicholas, this guy, and it is a male, entered through that

sliding glass door. I don't believe he had the code and I think he, since this is a rage killing, very likely was ungloved and left fingerprints and that it doesn't match up the prints don't match up to anybody or DNA in CODIS or APHIS because he's not a convict he's never been convicted of anything could you describe the structure of the home Nicholas yeah absolutely I was there yesterday it is very much on a C-pill I think that is important so you you have the front door and the driveway and that goes into the first floor. But then if you go up another roadway to a kind of parking lot for an apartment complex nearby, you can see that there's this sliding glass door to the second floor and also a kind of patio area where they seem to have a few, a couch and a chair and seem to be a nice spot to hang out outside that second floor sliding door.

So I think, you know, the police have not said anything about where the killer might have entered. But obviously those are two obvious places where that could have happened um and you know all of this is happening just in this in this very tight-knit college town area right under you know a water tower with the university of idaho logo um it's it's all just right in this kind of central area next to campus well i think it does tell me something about the killer joe scott morgan everybody again this is not high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump in. Joe Scott, it is telling me something because if the perp did not know the code to the front door and came in through the sliding glass door, that tells me he was tangentially involved in the victim's lives.

If we accept that the killer is in one of their spheres, likely since we've got three dead females and one dead male, likely in one of the three female victims' lives. But he wasn't close enough to know the code. Nancy, this is Dave Leroy. What? Jump in, David. Nancy, you need to recall the intimate setting in this small college town. And if the profilers are correct, if Kathleen's predictions and the other speculations from various sources are correct, it should be possible in a town of 25,000 people and a campus of 11,500, all geographically very contiguous, to see somebody of that profile who suddenly has left town, who suddenly has changed their routine.

I'm very hopeful if these profiles are correct, that though we may not have analyzed the scene evidence to some particular person, some of these tangential things or some of these leaks that hopefully will be developed can perhaps very swiftly lead to a suspect meeting those profiles. And another thing that I think is news is there's an incredible amount of resources, an unprecedented amount of resources being applied by law enforcement, by Idaho standards to this case. The Moscow PD has 24 officers and they're all working on it, four detectives. The Idaho State Police Department

out of Boise has detailed their mobile forensic unit up there and has 20 investigators available. And significantly, the FBI out of three or four field offices and a laboratory in Virginia has 44 agents available to work on this case as well. So if the profilers are correct, somebody will pop up and perhaps we can marry up the scene evidence to that person in the near future. Everybody, I want you to take a listen to a theory I've developed so far. And please jump in. I believe this is going to be a white male, local, just as in Delphi. Now, we know that day there was a huge football game, and in that stadium, which holds 16,000 people, the seats were packed. But if we go with the premise this was targeted, that large group of people would be irrelevant to who this killer is. In other words, it's not increasing the suspect pool.

If we believe that this was targeted by someone within one of the girls' spheres, local white male, likely with cuts, bruises, and scratches that cannot account for that time of the killing. Someone that one of the girls knew at school or work. Someone that did not show up for school or work following it. Someone connected to them but not convicted. convicted someone that would own a camping military hiking type knife someone on foot not a peeping tom because this goes beyond the violence we would normally get from a peeping tom that graduates to a greater crime with no evidence so far of a stalker. Okay, we would have gotten that from emails or texts or phone calls. We don't have that. That's who I think the killer is going to be. And isn't it true, Nicholas Bogle Burroughs

joining us in the New York Times, police have ruled out any connection between the skinning of a dog a couple of miles away prior to the murders and three other stab victims from two stabbing incidents. All those have been ruled not connected. Is that correct, Nicholas? Right. There's been so much speculation around this case, of course, that the police have spent a lot of time in their public statements trying to dispel these rumors. So like you said, there's been cases elsewhere, I believe one in Oregon, that

the police have had to come out and say, we don't see anything that leads us to believe there's a connection. And they've also spent a lot of time um as you mentioned with the the uh death of a dog um elsewhere they believe that that was caused by you know another animal um they've also spent a lot of time talking about suspects that they uh have apparently ruled out so there was uh a man in a hoodie at a food truck that two of the victims, Maddie and Kaylee, went to on the night of the attacks. And, you know, the kind of Internet sleuth community, of course, has tried to pin down, you know, who could have done this. But in doing so, they've kind of put out a lot of names that the police have ended up saying, you know, we don't think that person is connected to this. So that person was among them. The person who gave two of the victims a ride home, you know, two surviving roommates. And there's about five more people that the police

have come out and said, we don't believe they have a connection to this. Guys, a piece of the puzzle that may become critical. Take a listen to Our Cut 65, Kena Whitworth. In a case like this though, where the victims and the survivors were all so active on social media, is that helpful to the investigation to learn about them and their friends and their lives? Well, I think it's both helpful and it also just enlarges the investigation overall. It just has more people for us to try and contact and try and get information on the evening in question and just be able to do a full analysis and review of the case. Straight out to special guest joining us, Kathleen Canning Mello, former FBI unit chief for 31 years. Ten of those assigned to the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit, now in Structer,

North Carolina. Kathleen, what can we learn from social media about these victims and the potential perpetrator? Absolutely, the police and FBI investigators are going through all of their social media with a fine-tooth comb. And I would go back weeks or even months trying to examine, identify the people within their network, try to identify their patterns over the last couple of weeks and people that they have encountered. And you would imagine this is such a data-driven sort of investigation as well in terms of cell phone data and other ring camera videos, CCTV. This is why it's taking a while to go through all that digital evidence because it requires

expertise, right? We need computer forensic examiners to go through a lot of this data to recover missing data from a lot of the devices. It takes time and it takes expertise. So I understand the frustration, but it certainly is necessary for the investigators to go through all of their social media contacts and all of their phones and all of their photographs in order to try the piece together and maybe identify this person. Right. I mean, I'm curious as to what they would be looking for. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Joe Scott Morgan, I would look to see whoever had friended them, who was on their Snapchat map, who was snapping with them. There's so many things to look at. Who had liked or disliked something or unfriended them. There's so many levels of seeming intimacy online. That's not real. And I guarantee you, if this was somebody in their sphere, they're looking at their Insta, they're looking at their story, as it's called. I believe that may hold a key. Yeah, it could.

But, you know, we got to consider one other thing. This is unlike any other kind of community that this could have happened in. We're talking about a university community. These kids that populate the student body, they're already looking toward Thanksgiving break. OK, and then you have this horrific event that occurs. And even by the admission of the president of the university, he said that some kids might not come back. Well, one of the problems this poses for the local police is the fact that these kids have left, Nancy, and you know better than anybody. There is something that you get when an eye-to-eye interview with individuals where you're sitting across the table from them and you can cue them you can get illicit information from them that's that there's a potential they're going to miss something here because even those individuals that didn't have

direct contact with these poor victims they might see something or they might have heard something that now has lost all context we're now two weeks down range from this. These kids have gone home. Some of them have not come back. They've offered for them to take online classes. That's no fault of the university. That's just the reality. And this is what this is a big obstacle, I think, that the police are facing in this case.

Guys, that would explain if the killer left immediately after the killing, it could all be chalked up to leaving out of fear, lost in the shuffle, maybe never returning. This is a very transient community. People come in and out depending on, do they graduate? Do they lay out a quarter? Are they leaving for work,

are they going to come back, are they picking up summer classes. That entirely compounds the difficulty of trying to locate the killer. As of right now, no motive, no murder weapon, no suspect. On top of it all, we are learning that the families are rankling, the families of the victims, because of lack of information. Take a listen to our Cut 63, our friend Jonathan Vigliotti. Police are keeping details they do have under lock and key, including audio of the 911 call, the names of the surviving roommates, and the names of those at the house who spoke to dispatchers during the call, citing case of the surviving roommates and the names of those at the house who spoke to dispatchers during the call, citing case integrity. The lack of information is a pain point for Kaylee

Consalves' already grieving family. We all want to play a part in helping and we can't play a part if we don't have any real substantial information to work from. Detectives did dispel rumors that the victims were tied up and addressed claims that Consalves had a stalker. So far, we have not been able to corroborate it, but we're not done looking into that piece of information. Oh, well, the roommates have been named. Isn't it Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk? Aren't those the names, Nicholas? Those names are out there. I'm not sure that that's come from the police but um i know that um the victims had posted on social media with with those

two students i would be curious dr jory crawson joining me psychologist uh faculty st leo university and author of operation sos dr jory do you believe the killer acted as a methodical serial killer such as BTK? I mean, there's a big difference in a mass killer or spree killer and a serial killer. Do you think he would have thought to take a trophy with him or was he hastily leaving the scene of the slaughter? I think he was hastily leaving. It was a mass killer, not a serial killer. I would even venture to say that he's left the area, and I would say that he probably left right after that got out of the area. Okay, we know there was no theft. We know there was no sex assault. We know now that the victims were not bound or gagged in any way.

I want to follow up on the fact that the families are upset they're not getting enough information. Nicholas Bogle Burroughs with me, national reporter, New York Times. It's not the police duty or law enforcement to spoon feed us the media information. But regarding the victims' families, that's a whole nother can of worms. You have to stay in touch with the victim's families. What are we learning about police refusal to release info to victims' families? Right. Well, all indications have been that they have received not much more information than has been provided publicly. Kaylee's family has spoken about, you know, I think her older sister, Olivia Gonsalves, has really kind of turned into

an investigator herself. She was going through, you know, her sister's phone account and looking at who she had called. She was looking at this live stream from the food truck before just about anyone. And, you know, she's really not getting much more information than the public and are expecting fewer updates as this drags on. To David Leroy, high profile lawyer out of Idaho, who's intimately familiar with this home, who has been in the home and knows the area very well. David, we also are told by police they're convinced that this was a targeted attack. This wasn't burglary gone wrong or a rape attempt gone wrong, but targeted. So that leads me to the question, how do they know it's a targeted attack?

They're not releasing that information, but think about it. Was one targeted? Two? All four? Most likely one. Why would they say one person was targeted? Were their wounds different? Was their body treated differently than the others? Did they have more wounds than the others? For instance, was their body staged? And what I mean by that is, was a blanket or a sheet pulled up over their face?

Any movement of the scene post-mortem is staging. Why do you think, David Leroy, you've handled plenty of murder cases, that police are insisting this was targeted against one of these victims? Well, the word targeted became initially associated with this homicide that they're now calling the king road homicides very very early in fact it was perhaps within almost minutes of when this first dialogue began that this began to be called a targeted killing i think they have stayed with that, partially because the original focus on just one household and four people and utterly shocking events in a small community appeared to be unlikely to repeat itself to the general public in any near-term future. And perhaps it is entirely consistent now, as they continue to use that with the profiling that we're discussing on the program today. I don't think they know yet, or at least they

haven't indicated yet, that it was targeted to any one person or that it was any more targeted than we have already learned. On the other hand, it remains something that is utterly unlikely to pose a general threat to the community of Moscow, as we have discussed. Until the killer's caught, I think that there is a threat. To Kathleen Canning Mello, why do you believe police have insisted this is targeting? I mean, David Leroy seems to suggest that they labeled it as targeted at the get-go, so now they're stuck with their own words. I disagree. Yeah, I think it goes back to the motivation, right? And we're considering the motivation, as we've discussed today, as a revenge motive.

So that seems to me it directly ties into some kind of a target, right? The offender wants revenge against one or more persons. We don't know at this point whether it was one or more victims that were the targets of this attack. But it seems logical to me that this revenge was the motive and one or more of those victims was the target of the attack. Jessica Morgan, it doesn't make sense to me that all four are the target. It would make more sense that one is a target. And if so, let's just follow this through to its logical conclusion. How would they determine this was targeted?

What could be different about one of the bodies? The level of violence involved specifically, you know, and a lot has been made of this, you know, because the term multiple has been used multiple stab wounds. I think the coroner let that slip out to be quite honest with you. I was,

I was too Joe Scott. I was stunned. Is that what you're going to say? That the coroner blab. Now, let me remind everybody. This coroner is not a medical doctor. She is not a medical examiner.

She has a four-year degree. And what did I tell you? It was Joe Scott was in English. Yeah, I think so. And then a JD. She has a lawyer's degree. She's a registered nurse. Also has a history as a registered nurse.

That said, take a listen to Hourcut 46. This is a county coroner, Kathy Mabbitt. Most of them had just like one that was the lethal stab wound. Yes. Can you describe what that one might have been? Fatal wounds were to the chest area or the upper body area. Were there, and I only ask this because it sometimes determines what kind of a crime this was, a crime of passion, a random crime, a fight, a struggle. Was there, were any of them slashed? Were any of their necks cut? Or were these all puncture wounds well it was a pretty large knife

so it's really hard to call them puncture wounds and they were definitely stabbings and I mean it has to be somebody that's pretty angry in order to stab four people to death as a county coroner speaking to our friends over at News Nation. Joe Scott, I like you, was very taken aback that the coroner issued the statement, gave an interview during an ongoing investigation. But did you hear her words? Most of them had her words just like one. That was a lethal stab wound. Most of them, not all of them,

had one lethal stab wound. Decipher, Joe Scott. Well, yeah, and then you factor in this idea of defensive wounds because defensive wounds can come in any number. How is one body treated differently than the other bodies? Why do we think this was targeted?

Yeah, well, for me personally, if you're asking me if I could examine the bodies, I would take a look and see who had sustained the most trauma. Because, you know, going to what Dr. Jory said, this is an indication of rage, perhaps. You know, and I'm not I'm not a psychotherapist. But, you know, when you see somebody that attempts to really destroy somebody with a knife, that gives you an indication of purpose. Nicholas Bogle Burrows there on the scene, national reporter, New York Times. What is the mood on campus right now as some students return? So yesterday was the first day back for students after this had all happened.

Many of them had left early for Thanksgiving break following this tragedy. And so I spoke with a lot of students yesterday, and many of them are afraid. They're texting their roommates and making sure that they're coming back if they are so that they're not alone. They're staying inside at night. They're walking in pairs. One woman told me she even was planning to get pepper spray for Christmas this year as a gift. So, you know, a lot of them were grateful for the police around campus. Multiple people pointed that out to me. But they are all just getting flooded with calls from their parents, from friends, checking in on them at all times. I'm sure.

Tip line 208-883-7054. Repeat, 208-883-7054. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.