Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Idaho Students Murders: Was Kaylee the Target?

Episode Date: December 6, 2022

Steve Goncalves, the father of Idaho victim Kaylee Goncalves, says he is so frustrated by how his daughter's and the other murders have been handled that he is looking at hiring a private investigator. Goncalves says his daughter and her friend Maddie's deaths are very different, saying Kaylee's injuries are more brutal. He also says that he is receiving little information from the Moscow Police. He's concerned that as more people and students leave the area that the killer has, too.     Joining Nancy Grace Dale Carson - High Profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself"  Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist; Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark"   Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA. Twitter: @ColdCaseTips    Robert Crispin - Private Investigator, Former Federal Task Force Officer for United States Department of Justice, DEA and Miami Field Division; Former Homicide and Crimes Against Children Investigator; Facebook: Crispin Special Investigations, Inc.  Ted Williams - Former Washington DC Police Detective Defense Attorney, Fox News Contributor; Starred in the nationally televised show, "Power of Attorney" Stephanie Pagones - Crime Reporter, Fox News Digital; Twitter: @steph_pagones  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Still no motive, no murder weapon, and no suspect as tensions mount in the small town of Moscow, Idaho. This, as we learn, according to the four student victims' families, one of the girls was the target. That is a huge break in this murder investigation. We also learn the families of the slain victims are actually hiring private investigators. This as an eerie handprint emerges on the sliding glass door of the so-called murder house. We also understand the family is questioning were certain people ruled out as suspects way too soon. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. In my mind, evaluating this case, the possibility

that as we pointed out on day one, one of the girls specifically was targeted. If that's true, that is a watershed moment in this case. First of all, take a listen to this. Your daughter and Maddie had different means or manner of attack, and that suggests one of them was targeted. Can you share with us, do you know, and you can't share either way, which one was targeted? I can't. I asked for permission to do you know, and you can't share either way, which one was targeted? I can't. I asked for permission to do just that, and they said no. I probably over-disclosed information that they wish I wouldn't have said.

But the story's going cold. There's less people coming to Moscow. I'm not going to go sleep in my bed knowing that I could get up and I could go to town and I could do something. And I'm not going to go away. You're hearing our friend Pete Hegses speaking on Fox News to Keely Gonzalez's father. Can you imagine that feeling? You're trying to find your daughter's killer grappling with her murder and suddenly everybody that seems interested at all in solving the case, one by one, begin to leave town? With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But before I go straight out to Stephanie Pagonis, crime reporter at Fox News Digital, I want to hear one more thing from Kaylee Gonsalves' dad. Take a listen to him speaking on Fox News.

I'll cut to the chase. Yeah. Their means of death don't match. Maddie's and Kaylee's cause of death, it does not match based on the autopsy report. They don't match. Would indicate that one of them may have been the target. He doesn't have to go up the steps. Let's stop playing games, guys.

I need somebody to step up and be an outfit, be somebody to be a leader. Don't make me do it. I don't want to do it. He doesn't have to go up the steps. Their points of damage don't match. I'm just going to say it. It doesn't have to go up those steps. Their points of damage don't match. I'm just going to say it. It wasn't leaked to me. I earned that. I paid for that funeral. I paid for that. It's my right. You ain't taking that from me. Calm down. If you don't want to say

nothing, that's your bet. But don't say I'm leaking anything. I paid that bill. Sent my daughter to college to get an education. She came back in a box, and I can speak on that. You know, Stephanie Pagonis, hold on just one moment. I want to go to a special guest joining us, Ted Williams, former Washington, D.C. police detective, defense lawyer, Fox News contributor, starred on Power of Attorney. Ted, that just gave me chills all the way down my body because I know you like I have spoken to so many homicide victims families this dad and mom you hear the mom going calm down calm

down he can't calm down he's not getting any answers he is beside himself Nancy he's frustrated and rightfully so. His child that he sent to college came back to him in a box. And as your audience should understand, this is a very, very emotional scenario for that man. And when you look at the fact that they talked about this targeted and then you get word from investigators, well, we don't know who the target was. Well, we don't know if the house was targeted. This is a bunch of BS. Either you put out a legitimate story or you don't say a damn thing and under the circumstances here this father has a right to feel the way he does and if you think about it for a second if the killer or killers came through the sliding back glass door on the back of the home he would have encountered both ethan and zany in the on the second floor of that home if they were the target well he would have killed them and it's more likely than not that he would have been left but the killer or killers went up to that third floor where Maddie and Kaylee were sleeping together, according to their father. And they were killed on that second, on that third floor.

The killer, I believe, had to have known something about that home. I believe that the killer has been, or killers should we say, have been in that home before. When I heard Ted, the pain and the anger, and Mr. Gonzalez, his voice, and I can just see the wife, because I've seen it so many times, the wife, you know, holding him by the arm going, calm down, calm down, calm down, because she knows that when you get crazy and you're angry, the cops don't want to deal with you. They shut you down, but he can't help it.

He's at his wits end. I want to analyze what Ted just told us. And remember, former Washington, D.C. police detective, not only defense attorney, but detective. He's been on just as many homicide scenes as I have been, if not more. You know, Stephanie Pagone is joining me, crime reporter, Fox News Digital. This is a big deal. This is a very big deal. We've been screaming from day one that somebody, most likely one of the girls, was targeted. And now we have reason to believe it was Gonsalves' daughter. Now, you just heard Ted lay out who was on what floor.

Explain what he is saying and why it is so critical that the killer goes to the second floor, which kind of looks like the ground floor from one vantage point. There's two people there. They're killed. But he goes up another flight. He could not have gotten in on that third floor. He had to come in through the front door on one or the sliding glass door on two but he went all the way up to three to continue killing and there is where the other two girls were. Explain it Stephanie. Absolutely

so first I want to start by saying as you Nancy, there are three stories in this building. On the top floor, the third floor, Kaylee and Maddie were sleeping in the same bed. On the second floor, Zanna and Ethan were sleeping. And on the bottom floor, there were two other roommates who survived these attacks and were not harmed. Now, as the father said, if this suspect did go through the middle floor, he would have had to have gone up the steps because there is no point of entry on the third floor. So as Ted just explained, if the killer had chosen, assuming the killer did go through the second floor he or she could have you know attacked Zanna and Ethan and then left but instead the killer went upstairs to the third floor again where there is no point of entry so that's why Mr. Gonsalves seems to be

explaining that he thinks this was a deliberate move, not just something where a killer just went through the home and attacked anything he or she saw. Let's hear it from Steve Goncalves one more time. This is our cut 102. Again, Steve is speaking with our friends at Fox. There's a couple things that tell me with common sense, but I'm not a professional, so I want to specify that. But they've said the entry point was the slider or the window.

It was in the middle floor. So to to me he doesn't have to go upstairs his entry and exit are available without having to go upstairs or downstairs looks like he probably may have not gone downstairs we don't know that for sure but he obviously went upstairs so I'm using logic that he chose to go up there when he didn't have to. Another thing. Were the injuries significantly different on those two girls? And I'm talking about Maddie and Kelly. Since the killer made such a point to go up to the third floor, were their injuries more severe? Were they posed in any way?

Were they, and when I say posing, I don't mean anything extravagant. I mean, were their faces covered up with a pillow? Were they, and when I say posing, I don't mean anything extravagant. I mean, were their faces covered up with a pillow? Were they unclothed? Were they moved in any way? That would also differentiate them from the other victims. Take a listen to our cut 124. This is Jim Murray at Inside Edition. Published reports say that Kaylee was subjected to a more brutal attack than the other three victims. She was killed on the same bed along with her best friend, Madison Mogan. News Nation reporter Brian Anton is in Idaho covering the investigation.

There's a number of different theories possible. Since her wounds were more significant than Maddie's, is it possible she was the target? Yes. Or is it possible that she woke up and was trying to fight back Is it possible she was the target? Yes. Or is it possible that she woke up and was trying to fight back and that Maddie was the target? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Straight out to forensic expert, founder the cold case research institute you can find her at coldcasecrimes.org cheryl mccollum jump in nancy it depends to me on where the wounds were so if the killer concentrated on her face her neck her chest

maybe even her breast that's going to be very telling. So it's not just a matter of she had more stab wounds, but where those stab wounds are located could be very telling of this killer. You know, Stephanie Pagonis joining us, Fox News Digital. I understand all the wounds were in the torso area. Is that correct or no? You know, I'm not necessarily sure about that. It could be correct.

But what I do know is that each of the victims were stabbed several times. Now, as we heard, Mr. Gonsalves explained that his daughter did mention that she was significantly injured here. But each of the victims showed signs not only of several stab wounds, but some of them also showed signs of fighting back. The medical examiner also said that investigators believed the victims were asleep when they were initially attacked. It's unclear, though, who woke up and who tried to defend themselves before they were ultimately killed. To you, Ted Williams joining us, former D.C. police detective, now defense attorney. We were told that the stab wounds were in the torso. But as Cheryl McCollum pointed out, if, let's just hypothesize, if Kelly or Maddie's wounds were in the breasts or in any other area that would somehow give a psychological differentiation to their wounds, that would be significant.

Do you know anything about that, Ted? Not a lot. The medical examiner has tried to speak out about where these wounds were. Hold on, friend. The coroner, she is not a medical doctor. And I was really surprised when she gave that interview right off the bat and started giving all these opinions that I would have thought the police would want to keep close to the vest do you remember that ted i remember it and and it surprised the living hell out of me and you're

absolutely right but the information that was given and let's just say for the purpose of our discussion here that uh kaylee was the target uh that is where investigators would have to start really significantly working backwards but if they fought if they did anything or there may be some dna that they will be able to develop or some physical evidence. If you are stabbing somebody, you have a knife. There's a great deal of blood. And your hand, if you're stabbing somebody, you have the knife in your hand. There's always a possibility that you could slip within the blood, and I hate to sound so gory about this, but you could slip into the blood and you could cut yourself with the knife. We know that this was a large knife

that was used. From all indications, it appears as though one knife, that is all we've heard about, that was used on four of the victims. And the only thing I hate is this misinformation about it may have been a military knife or this kind of a knife. All we know is that it was a large knife. It could very well have been a butcher knife. Yes. Anything that's fixed blade, you're absolutely right. Okay, guys, I hope you're sitting down.

Here he comes. Dale Carson, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville. fixed blade. You're absolutely right. Okay, guys, I hope you're sitting down. Here he comes. Dale Carson, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville. But more importantly, for my purposes, former Fed with the FBI as an agent, former cop, Dale Carson. Okay, Dale, let's have it. All right. Look, from my perspective, there are two ways this could have gone down. And I think it's fairly clear from the evidence. Someone either came in on the second floor or someone came in on the first floor. If the timings are not right and the police are not letting go with the information about why they know, how they know when people returned home. Now the people on the first floor returned at about 1 a.m.

So did they hear people go up the steps to the second floor? Is that how they know what time? And if that's the case. No, no, no. Dale Carson. No.

Some of the, one of the girls was on the phone. Wasn't it at 2 52 a.m. So we know the murders were after 2 52 a.m and i can guarantee you guarantee you that's a technical legal word that if they had heard somebody creeping up and down the stairs they would have done something they were asleep in their beds when they were attacked they didn didn't hear a thing. Not creeping. Okay, walking. People on the second floor

could have let someone into the property. And that person could have been in there waiting for the other people to come to the top floor. Okay, well there's a unique theory that they let the killer in. Guys, we are talking about

the possibility that one of these girls was the victim. And according to reports, Kelly Gonsalves had injuries that were different from the other injuries. Maybe simply more brutal. Stephanie Begonis, are you getting any sense of how her injuries were different? Police have even mentioned that the family, that they are not even communicating with the family in the sense that the family is getting information elsewhere. Yeah, we know about all the family's frustration. No, no, no. Take a listen to our cut 118, Steve and Christy Gonsalves. Somebody isn't communicating.

There's nothing being released. It seems like they're trying to suppress the story. We want to put rewards out there. Like, don't do that. Yeah, I get it. Your town doesn't want to have reward posters posted all over when you come and you do your rush you're not going to get a lot of students if they see those things but this community is not going to heal until this guy's pulled off the streets it ain't going to happen think it through it's not going to happen he has to be

off the streets we all are working for the same thing and more from steve gonzalez listen we know that this is getting three weeks in and it's starting to get, we don't want it to go cold. We're reaching out. I reached out to friends down in California today that have connections that we're hoping to get, raise some money to get a reward, to get a private investigator. Third party. Third party. Why go the private route do y'all worry that at the end of this week that this case may be cold we're scared when you tell me you don't want a a

photo up there with the reward offering information that kind of sounds like you're trying to like suppress the story i mean why do you not need help but hey i could be wrong and your officers i apologize if i'm wrong yeah i want to please forgive me please forgive me but if but if you don't have the information people do know if they don't okay joining me right now uh renowned private investigator robert crispin former federal task force with the Department of Justice, also with the DEA in Miami. Never a lack of business there. Former homicide detective, now founder of Crispin Special Investigations at CrispinInvestigations.com. Robert, I think I heard Dale Carson moaning in the background, groaning, don't do it.

Don't hire a PI. Carson moaning in the background, groaning, don't do it. Don't hire, hire a PI. But if the family is feeling, oh, that was Ted Williams groaning. Okay. If the family feels like they got to hire a PI, whose fault is that? They're not getting information from the cops. So listen, he's not wrong in saying no, no, no. However, I disagree with both of you there's a reason to hire an investigator and there's a host of reasons not to hire an

investigator the reason the family wants to bring in an investigator is because they're not getting anything from law enforcement okay that's intentional and you know mr williams will tell you as i'll tell you in a case of this magnitude or during a homicide investigation, you got to shut your mouth. Way too much information has been released on this, the method, the types of injuries, the weapon used. So when they do catch somebody. A lot of that information came from the coroner, not the family. And that never it never should have happened. It never should have happened.

But here's here's a good part about hiring an investigator. Once that crime scene, the right investigator, someone with experience, and I think Mr. Williams will tell you this. Once that crime scene has been released and the last law enforcement boot is out the door and it's been turned back over to the owner, the first boots that are going in is a guy like me or a guy like Mr. Williams, because crime scenes talk to you. As soon as you step in the door, that crime scene wants to tell you what happened. And it's going to tell you from the appearance of the crime scene, the damage, what's been cut out by law enforcement. Is there, you know, is the mattress gone is there a large section of the carpet gone are there holes in the wall it just it tells you how this happened and systematically

the trained investigator can go through and he can tell you i think this is how it happened did they kill him on the first on the second floor first or to kill him on the third floor first well we really don't know that although everyone's telling us that but you know what's going to tell us the crime scene's going to tell us because they killed him on the third floor first? Well, we really don't know that, although everyone's telling us that. But you know what's going to tell us? The crime scene's going to tell us. Because if they killed them on the second floor first, we got bloody footprints going upstairs. If we got bloody footprints coming downstairs, then we know that the top one happened first.

So the point I'm trying to tell you is the crime scene does tell you who did it. You just need to get in there. Now, I'd like to know, what is law enforcement's victim advocate unit to corral these victims and get them in and talk to them? I don't really like the way you said corral, like they're a bunch of livestock to be herded into a fence. I mean to get the family in and talk to them and keep them under wraps and explain to them, listen, we want to tell you certain things. But if I tell you this and victims' emotions run away and they're not law enforcement, the emotions will run and they talk. If a specific fact gets out, because when they catch this person, they're going to get a ton more evidence. Cheryl McCollum joining me.

I disagree with both Ted Williams and Robert Crispin because I'm hearing the anger and the frustration and the hurt and the murder victim's family's voices. Every time I hear Steve Gonsalves, I wince. And I've been there. I've been the murder victim's family. And when you don't know what's going on, it's terrible. And you were with me, Cheryl. The first thing I would do is find the victim's family. Find them at their home, in their backyard, at their office. I'd wait at their car till they came out. Get them. Explain to them what's happening. You don't have to give away all of your evidence.

But when they have questions, you need to feel them as best as you can. You don't need them having to go, and I don't fault the victim's family, having to go on national TV to try to get answers. That is not right, Cheryl. There is no excuse in not communicating. They should talk to these families every single day. That should be the first thing they do when they get to their desk. Here's what I've got today. This is what I'm doing. I will call you with any updates I can give you. At their desk? Cheryl, when you are dealing with a case like this, you get in your car and you go to them. Of course.

And see them face to face. Nancy, you've got a department of only 35 people. They have got over 2,000 tips. They are so out of their league. They need help. So what I'm saying is if they get to their desk and they're running through their day and their to-do list, the first thing they should do is reach out to that family. Period.

Period. Wait, wait, wait, wait, please. I don't mean to interrupt, but I got to. Look, Robert is right. There is a difference between law enforcement establishing a rapport with a family and keeping that rapport and the protection of an investigation. Law enforcement do not, do not, under any circumstance, have to tell a family everything that's going on or most of what's going on. Nancy, let me jump in. They've got to keep the family informed.

I don't have a problem with that. But Robert is right. You bring in a private investigator. Why can't both of you be right? Why can't we all agree that this family has been unattended? They're not getting the contact with the cops they need. And they're having to go on national TV to try to get answers. There is a medium between meeting with the family and spilling the whole case and not meeting with the family at all what's

going on here is you've got some investigators in your show is right they're inexperienced in this kind of investigation they haven't had a homicide out there for the last seven years. Seven years, I know. So they are very much inexperienced. Okay, you know what you're reminding me of, Ted? You and Crispin, you're reminding me of my husband.

Karen Stark with me, a renowned psychologist joining us out of New York, karenstark.com. That's Karen with a C, Karen. David drives like a 95-year-old grandma, okay? And he'll be going about literally 18 miles an hour. I put him on Waze to see how slowly he's going. I'm like, can you speed up for Pete's sake before my head blows

off? He goes, well, I don't want to run down those children. I'm like, isn't there a happy medium? Can you go 30 miles an hour and not run over the children on the sidewalk? Is there a middle ground here? And I think that's what we're saying, Karen. You don't have to open up all your files to the family in order to give them what they need. You need to have empathy for the family. It's really essential. I mean, you know what it's like to be a victim. These people need to be in touch. They need to. They have to walk. And I get it.

They need to walk a very narrow line, but they have to be able to let them know what's going on. If they are inexperienced. Right. Then they need to have other... Wait, wait. Guys, hold on. Wait a minute. I'm getting some information right now. We've got to address, and it is about a stalker.

Go to 123, our friends at KREM, very quickly. Investigators say they looked into an incident in mid-October, which is where they believe the stalker claims originated that Kaylee made to friends. Now, according to police, Kaylee was at an unidentified local business. Two men were seen inside attempting to pick up women. One of those men appeared to follow Kaylee out to her car, but did not make any contact with her, according to police.

Investigators say both men have been investigated and cleared as suspects. And also take a listen to 114, our friends at Fox. The fact that no one's going to reveal themselves so far as being potentially the person who was going after it means that maybe there was something that went on some time ago. It doesn't mean that it happened that night or a week or two before, but I've seen cases post my FBI experience where it's been two years when someone has come back and who had been felt disenfranchised or in some way, anyway, dissed and harbored that resentment, harbored that feeling, and he came back and committed killing. So it is possible that this is something that,

that's why it may be more difficult for police to find out who the suspect is. It could be further back in the past and very nuanced and very kind of veiled only in the killer's mind. So Stephanie Pagano is joining us from Fox News Digital. What can you tell me about an alleged stalker? Well, so interestingly enough, this is something that Kaylee supposedly even mentioned to her own father, that she felt as though she might have had a stalker, or she made some sort of comments about her feelings that she might have had one.

Now, this is something that police have questioned many people about, they say. And up until just yesterday they had not disclosed any additional details just yesterday police said they think they might have learned what kaylee was possibly referring to okay what was it the police said in mid-october two men were seen inside a local business in Moscow. Apparently one of the men appeared to be following Kaylee inside the business and after she left that business. The male then stopped following her and he didn't appear to make any contact with her, but police said that when they did speak to both men, they learned that they were trying to meet women at the business. Police said

they were able to corroborate this and they have not found any evidence to suggest that either of the men was involved in these murders so far. Okay, question. Do we know what business it was? I have heard that it was a local grocery store, but unfortunately, I don't have more beyond that at this moment. Okay, how does that factor in, Ted Williams? Well, it's another lead that you have to follow up on and you have to rule out. It's interesting about this stalking. I've always believed that it is not part of this investigation, but it's lead. Every lead, every lead has to be followed up on and this is just another

lead that was followed up on this stalking lead and it appears to be going nowhere but again nancy what i want to say and i think our guests understand we've got a lot of inexperienced individuals real in this investigation i know the FBI is involved. I know that the Idaho state police is involved, but we have a lot of inexperienced people running this investigation, and that is very concerning to me. Well, what about the idea of the stalker, Cheryl McCollum? Because it keeps coming up. It keeps coming up, and here's where it's got some legs for me. Her dad believes it. She stated it to more than one person and she was only there to show her new friend her car. I mean her friend her new car.

She wasn't supposed to be there and this person that murdered these four people took an extra step to go upstairs. He didn't go to the basement. So it looks to me like everything is pointing to Kaylee being the target. And if she made that statement and she sold her other car and put on there that she was moving across the country, she gave some information out. So if somebody wanted to stop her from leaving, they could do just that. crime stories with nancy grace straight out to cheryl mccallum cold case research institute jump in cheryl one thing i haven't heard anybody mention is whether or not the killer took souvenirs or a souvenir and the sad thing is when you're doing a victimology, the person that could best help law enforcement here was also murdered.

And that's each other's best friend. Getting back to the PI, here's the reason a PI might be really good in this case. Locating witnesses. Sometimes people will speak to a civilian when they will not speak to law enforcement, locating video and searching social media, a 35-member department cannot tackle a quadruple homicide by themselves.

You know, I've got some of my guests talking out of both sides of their mouth because they're saying, don't hire a PI, and they're saying there's not enough cops. And I want to follow up what Cheryl McCollum just said. Cheryl, you remember that big arson murder I tried right before I left the DA's office to go to court TV? Oh, yeah. That case was overwhelming. And then I found an incredible resource. It was the insurance company's private investigator.

Correct. And that guy had worked this case just as hard as the arson investigators. And he had a wealth of information that my investigators didn't have. Not because they were flat footed or stupid or lazy. He just had additional resources they didn't have. And I got a treasure trove of information from that arson private investigator for the insurance company. So I say take all the info you can get. I hear somebody jumping in.

Is it Dale or Ted? You don't want the private investigators to interfere with an already very, very complex case. That's the problem. And when you only have 35 members on a department, you can't devote an individual detective or officer to each of the families. I didn't ask for that. But what we're saying here is, look, right now we don't have any big suspect, none, none. So that means that it could be someone close to the family. We don't know the answer to those questions. And your point is?

Well, it's simply you've got to wait until the detectives who do have access to all of the information have an opportunity to analyze it. Well, you know what, Dale Carson? You can sit up in your ivory tower at your penthouse suite you've got there meeting clients, in your leather chair, blah, blah, blah. But these families are suffering. And unless the police speak to them and handle them with kid gloves and feed them enough information that they understand this case is on track, you're going to have them hiring PIs and spouting information on the airwaves because they don't know what else to do. They got their backs in a corner.

No, I understand the frustration of the family, but the families are not running a criminal investigation. I didn't say they were. They're not the victims. The victims are dead. The victims are dead. The victims are dead. And in order to get justice for them, everybody needs to quiet down and let the police do whatever work they can do. Absolutely.

And to interfere with that is just insanity. Okay. Bill is right, though, Nancy. You cannot. But you got. Look, there are two aspects of this case there is the catch the killer of killers and the second aspect is the successful prosecution of the killer killer and what a private investigator at this stage could interfere with that process and also think

about it the private investigator is not going to have access to the evidence. The police are not going to be talking and giving the private investigator information. I do agree with everyone here that the family needs to be kept in the loop as best you can. Well, that is not happening. Okay, everybody pipe down. Karen Stark wants in. Karen, that is not happening. Okay, everybody pipe down. Karen Stark wants in. Karen, it better be profound. Go.

It doesn't make any sense. This is a mixed message that they're inexperienced. They don't know what they're doing and yet we shouldn't have more people in trying to help them out. Amen, sister. That doesn't make any sense.

Wait a minute. You have the Idaho State Police involved. You've got the FBI involved. I know, so I don't know why you're screaming there's not enough cops. So there are enough cops. What is a private investigator going to do? I do

not know. We'll let him figure that out because like I just told you. Please, yeah, help me out here man throw me a bone i can tell you exactly what a private investigator is going to do at this stage he's going to jeopardize the entire investigation everything that law enforcement has done because absolutely telling you yeah because you know one thing that r will tell you, you get one shot at these interviews. One shot.

Yeah, but there is something a private investigator can do. There is something that they can do. What? And that's to create the nexus between law enforcement and the family. They can demonstrate to the family, here's the things that they are doing, and they don't even have to have the information. We as old private investigators know certain things are going to transpire and if you communicate that to the family then all of a sudden they're like oh jackie then i won't hate to do this but i'm gonna have to cut everybody's mic cheryl mccollum i just want

to point out that on all the cases i prosecuted, I never had someone hire a family, victim's family, hire a private investigator. Absolutely not. And you know why? Because they were with me lockstep every bit of the way. And no, I did not give them the whole file. And that thought never even occurred to me to give them the whole file or to tell them everything. But if they had asked me, I would have tried to tell them without jeopardizing the investigation. Or you would simply explain why

I can't tell you. Exactly. That's easily explained. But I'll tell you something, Nancy. Again, you are talking about a small department and they are over their head. But I want to point out one more thing, not just private investigators, but law enforcement use CIs all the time. They use civilians. And the problem when you bring in the state police. Confidential informants is what she's saying. And here's the thing. When you bring in the state police to a place like Moscow, they don't work that area. If this guy's in plain sight, which I believe he is, I believe he's a local. I believe he's right there. They don't know the rhythm of that community. Hey, hey I believe he is. I believe he's a local. I believe he's right there. They don't know the rhythm of that community.

Hey, hey, Cheryl, yes. Can you open up everybody's mic? This is important, guys. Number one, the family says that cops are clearing people too quickly. Let's hear cut 105. This is Kelly's dad at Fox News. Alibis. Just share the alibi.

If you're not sharing an alibi, to me, it tells me that you're not 100% confident that it's going to stick or you have somebody who's going to come forward and say, hey, I don't know what he told you or that person's alibi was, but I have this information. I have something. So if you don't share the alibi, it makes it a little bit harder for us to just let those go and i've said it before i don't i don't want to make victims out of just bystanders and witnesses so i just share those things and um that that would help no no no you don't go sharing alibis no you do not share alibis none of these people are actually clear i agree with that they may be clearing these people if there's other evidence that come in they will continue to be suspects of people of interest

but it's driven by the evidence you don't go to the family and tell the family this is what they said and he said and she said that is not the way you conduct an investigation. I got to agree with you on that, Ted Williams. Stephanie Pagonis, I was struck by a photo that my producer, there's Sidney, showed me the other day. It's a picture of Ethan, actually, the victim, Ethan, and he is sitting, Ethan Chapin, and he's sitting in the Sigma Chi house. It's not just him, but he's sitting sitting and behind him is a window beside him. And right through the window, you can look directly into the murder house.

I don't think people understand that you can look right into the girls' windows from the Sigma Chi house. Not only can you see it directly from there, Nancy, but students frequently even walk this path. They will walk from an area behind the crime scene over to an area near the fraternity house, and I believe it's something students frequently do because I've been told from students there that it's called a cut. Yes. Shortcut. Exactly. And you can see when there's not any snow where the grass is just dead there's no grass there because people take the cut so many times highly highly significant crispin why is it so important i mean i've often learned that killers covet what they see and you can see these girls right through their sliding glass door i mean

listen he he didn't go inside there wondering if the blinds were closed you know he just went in there on a rage and did what he did and when he left i guarantee you he took a lot of evidence with him and he left a lot of evidence he left his fingerprints i guarantee you he left his blood he left his footprints he left a fingerprint fingerprint, a palm print. He left something. Every criminal who commits a homicide leaves something or takes something. Agree or disagree, Dale Carson? Look, there's no question that when two crime scenes, a bad criminal interfaces with a crime scene, they leave something, they take something away. but that's months away. What you've just pointed out and what Cheryl's pointed out is that those open windows allow an assailant to watch them over time. And this assailant may have known that Kaylee was leaving, so he wouldn't have another opportunity to interface with her.

And it probably really frustrated him. And today you can use optics to enhance the view. So I would be curious, scene, two bedrooms that are crime scenes, and then four bodies that are crime scenes. And that's how I would have worked this thing. So you work your way out and in to each individual person. There is no way it is not going to be clear who was killed first. I would have swabbed every, you know, stab wound. You would know, just like Jeffrey McDonald, if you've got different, you know, blood types, that knife is going to go from victim one to victim two. That means victim two's got victim one and victim two's

blood. Victim three would have victim one, victim two, you know, victim three blood, and et cetera. They're going to know, they're going to be able to piece this together. We've had a month, and we've got to give them a little more time. This is a ton of information to go through. When you start talking about videotapes and victimology and the fraternities and sororities and classes and where they worked and their families and their exes, this is a ton to go through. Just social media would be somebody's full-time job on this thing. Karen Stark. I think

that it's really important, as we keep saying, to have those families in touch with and know that it's being worked on, to find a way to communicate with them, because it does take time, Cheryl's right, and they need to know that this is something that's important, really important, like you said, Nancy. Ted Williams, final thought. I agree with both of your guests that we have to continue to look at this in a broad perspective. You've got to keep the parents engaged. There is always a possibility that the parents know something nugget about the killer. I still believe that the killer had been,

you know, killers, should we say, have been in that house before. I don't think this was the first time, their first rodeo in that house. And when I say rodeo, I'm not being, I'm very evermind for that four Four college students died in that home. Unfortunately, we wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off.

Goodbye, friend. This is an I Heart podcast.