Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - INCITE FEAR: LUIGI MANGIONE'S MURDER “TERROR” CHARGE, MOM'S CHILLING COMMENT

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

Luigi Mangione has been indicted on first-degree murder in furtherance of terrorism.  He is also charged with two counts of murder in the second degree, with one of those counts also denoting Mangione murder of CEO Brian Thompson as an act of terrorism.  Mangione's family has yet to visit since his arrest, but he has had several meetings with his defense team that now includes high-profile attorney, Karen Friedman- Agnifilo.  Police questioned Mangione's mom the day before he was captured. She told officers that the shooting 'might be something that she could see him doing.' JOINING NANCY GRACE TODAY: Matt Mangino - Attorney, Former District Attorney (Lawrence County), Author: "The Executioner's Toll: The Crimes, Arrests, Trials, Appeals, Last Meals, Final Words and Executions of 46 Persons in the United States" Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker,"  featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock www.drbethanymarshall.com/ , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive Tom Smith - Former NYPD Detective, former  member FBI/NYPD Joint Terrorism Task Force. Co-Host of the GOLD SHIELDS Podcast, https://thegoldshieldshow.com, FB & Instagram: @thegoldshieldshow Sheryl McCollum - Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Host: Zone 7, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Joseph Scott Morgan  - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic Christina Aguayo - National News Anchor, Salem News Channel, website: www.ChristinaAguayoNews.Com, Facebook: @ChristinaAguayoNews, Instagram: @Christina.AguayoNews See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Inciting fear. The health boss assassin Luigi Mangione's charges just upgraded to murder one, claiming terrorism was the root of the shooting. This is mom's chilling comment to law enforcement is revealed. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Luigi Mangione remains behind bars in a Pennsylvania prison as he fights extradition to New York City. Online, so-called fans of the killer clamor for his release. They're not just clamoring now.

Authorities fear a copycat crime may be in the works. But this, as Luigi Mangione's charge is now upgraded to murder one. Listen. Luigi Mangione's charge is now upgraded to murder one. Listen. Luigi Mangione, the defendant, is charged with one count of murder in the first degree and two counts of murder in the second degree, including one count of murder in the second degree as an act of terrorism. For the brazen, targeted, and premeditated shooting of Brian Thompson,

who, as you know, was the CEO of UnitedHealthcare. Joining us, an all-star panel of experts to make sense of what we are learning right now about the so-called health boss assassin. Straight out to Christina Awayo joining us, national news anchor with Salem News Channel. Christina, thank you for being with us. Explain to us the new charges. Now, the old charges were A, out of Pennsylvania, where he was apprehended at the McDonald's. OK, the murder did not occur in Pennsylvania.

So therefore, he will not be facing that charge in Pennsylvania. The new charges are originating from a grand jury out of New York. What are they? OK, so now, as we just heard, Alvin Bragg, the district attorney in Manhattan alongside NYPD Commissioner Jessica Tisch, announced these new charges for New York. Number one, one count of murder, one murder in the first degree. He's facing two counts of murder, two murder in the second degree. He's facing two counts of murder two, murder in the second degree, one with the underlying cause of terrorism. And that's because Alvin Bragg said that this was premeditated. It was an ideological crime and it was committed in order to strike fear, terror, shock, attention into the residents of New York and the tourists of New York as well.

So that's why those charges have been outlined the way that they have. In addition to the murder one and the murder two, he's facing a slew of other felony charges. Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of LA, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her on Peacock. Now, Dr. Bethany, they had to, and it's very rare, especially for Bragg to take a hard crime fighting position. Don't ask me why about that. But that said, Dr. Bethany, they had to because the lifeblood of Manhattan is tourism. What tourist wants to go see Hamilton or whatever if they think they're going to get gunned down by an assassin like Luigi Mangione. Oh, no way. Are you going to take your children to Times Square?

You know, Nancy, not even just gunned down, but somebody who had the means to do this in such a crowded area, somebody who stayed at a hostel, somebody who carried a bike battery with him, someone who discarded a backpack in Central Park. This is where women and men, families take their children to play. And you know what, Nancy, I'm going to anticipate there are going to be a lot of tourists flocking to the scene where this crime took place. So we're going to have both a ghoulish quality of crime watching in the city and then families who want to stay away. Well put. You know, Christina Awayo just explained the most recent development in the Mangione case.

But let's hear it from the horse's mouth. Let me say a bit more about the charges. They include one count of murder in the first degree as a killing in furtherance of terrorism, two counts of murder in the second degree, one charge of the killing was done as an act of terrorism, two counts of murder in the second degree. One, charging of the killing was done as an act of terrorism, and the second, pertaining to the fact that the killing was intentional. The maximum penalty possible for murder in the first degree and murder in the second degree as an act of terrorism is life without parole.

The maximum penalty for murder in the second degree is 25 years to life. Joining me, high profile lawyer, Matthew Mangino, former felony prosecutor, author of The Executioner's Toll. Matt, thank you for being with us. Now, I don't want to go too inside baseball, too DEFCON 4 on this, but when you say the murder one charge is based on terrorism and intentional killing, that's the second theory of murder one. Murder two is also an intentional killing. Really, the only difference is who is the victim when it comes to intent as it relates to murder one versus murder two.

Agree, disagree. Well, I agree. But, Nancy, I'm a little suspect of the terrorism aspect of this. I don't see how this is an act of terrorism. Certainly, it intimidates the community, but any violent crime in downtown Manhattan intimidates the community, makes people fearful. I don't see that this is trying to influence the government policy in any way. So I think the second verse, same as the first, the state can't prove it. You don't think people are terrorized by somebody like Mangione wandering around Times Square, wandering around the city, lying in wait. We now know he stood

out there in the cold over an hour waiting for the victim to show up. You know what? Listen to brag. This was a frightening, well-planned, targeted murder that was intended to cause shock and attention and intimidation. It occurred in one of the most bustling parts of our city, threatening the safety of local residents and tourists alike, commuters and business people just starting out on their day. Back to you, Mangino. Question. You're saying the state can't prove the terrorism aspect of the murder one charge. Now, murder one in New York

must include aggravating circumstances or additional circumstances such as the victim was in law enforcement, the victim was a judge, the victim was a first responder, murder for hire, or inciting fear in furtherance of terrorism. I'm sure you as a felony prosecutor must have shown aggravating circumstances before. It's not that hard. Well, yeah, I have, particularly in my jurisdiction, in death penalty cases. But again, I think that the terrorism charge is a stretch here. You know, it's any homicide, any violent crime that's out in the public square in New York City incites fear in potential terrorists and other crime rates. It's themselves incite fear in people. So I think the terrorism charge.

Man, Gino, I'm sorry. Let me just check my, yeah, okay, that's working. Did you just compare the cold-blooded, well-planned execution of the health care boss to crime rates going up across the country? Are you saying, you know what? Eh, eh, cut his mic. Let me go to Tom Smith. Tom Smith joining me, former NYPD detective over 30 years, now the star of the Gold Shields podcast, Tom, could you please enlighten Matthew Mangino? Okay. I've checked his record. He's a very successful former felony prosecutor. I don't know what he's saying. I don't know what's coming out of his mouth, but to say people won't go to Times Square and visit New York because of rising crime rates. That's BS. New York is thronged.

Okay. But this, this, they had to do, they had to come down with this charge for the very reason of tourists, of the wellbeing of the citizens, of the credibility. If Brad can try to get credibility with the citizens, they had to do a murder one charge and gunning somebody down in cold blood because of a titular reason. The title, like you go down a judge because they're a judge. You gun down a cop because he she is a cop. You gun down this guy, Brian Thompson, because he's the head of United Healthcare. That is terrorism. There's a big difference. I've gone, taken the children to go see plays and go skating at Rockefeller Center and woman without fear of terrorism.

No, I think it's the correct charge because first of all, it's precedent setting for any possible copycats out there. Now, the highest charge that New York can bring was brought against him. And it did intimidate the public and not only just the public in general. Every CEO in this country felt fear and was frightened by this and took steps security wise with them, their families, not just in the healthcare system, but every CEO in this country was now under the intimidation of a murder like this. So I think going forward, it's the right charge and it's going to have a ripple effect with any possible copycats that are going to go on. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Joining me, Cheryl McCollum, founder, director of the Cold Case Research Institute and star of a hit series, Zone 7 podcast. Cheryl, what in the hay? Tom is absolutely right. Every single CEO in the Fortune 500 industries have changed the way they do business. He had a homemade weapon that he kept because I believe he wasn't finished. And he also talked about bombs. He also had specific, you know, a target. But the fact that he would make weapons, talk about other weapons of mass destruction, it again reminds me of our Olympic Park bombing. We had one murder, one, Alice Hophorn, but those games shut down. Athletes went home. Every single Olympic since then has changed to the way they do business.

This single murder, this single assassination is absolutely an act of terrorism. You know, it's very interesting the way that Matthew Mangino is trying to say that terror was not caused. Cheryl McCollum, you just pointed out that healthcare industry execs across the country, and in fact, the healthcare industry itself is changing the way it does business. What did you mean by that? You know, you've got CEOs now, not just in healthcare, but is there gonna be some crackpot that says, hey, airlines are a monopoly.

Car manufacturers are a monopoly. Who's next? They have no choice but to go to their security heads and say, hey, how can I be safe? And they've got to maintain a level of security, not just for themselves, but for their families. It's a different day than it was 10 days ago. You know, I want to go back to Christina Awayo joining us, national news anchor. Isn't it true, Christina, that months, just a few months before he was gunned down in the street, Brian Thompson issued a very chilling warning to the UnitedHealthcare executives about the way that the industry was portrayed

and actually pushed measures to change the way healthcare was working. That's absolutely right. And we found that out just recently by the parent company of UnitedHealthcare. He was actually, Brian Thompson was actually a good guy, quote unquote, who was working to fix things, who actually felt the pain of the people who were getting their claims denied or having to pay these enormous deductibles and sky high monthly premiums. And he was trying to bring awareness to it. He was trying to fix it. And he was actually trying to enact change across the entire healthcare industry, at least that of

UnitedHealthcare, to sort of reverse the problems and the issues that people were having with the healthcare system. So it appears as though Luigi Mangione targeted, allegedly targeted and killed, allegedly killed the wrong man. You know, it's really bizarre. It seems like he got it bass-ackwards while he was lying on the beach in Hawaii, hatching his murder plan, and picks out Brian Thompson, Christina. And I want to get these words exactly correct. Thompson had just in a very eerie, oh, there he is lounging without a shirt on, not working, I might add, like the rest of us. Wow, he doesn't look like he's in any back pain right there to me. None whatsoever. Oh, there he is running on the beach. In many shots, I see him lounging with Hawaiian

beauty scantily clad. Oh, there he is again. No problem. No indication of any pain whatsoever, but that's a whole nother can of worms. Just before being gunned down, Thompson was urging executives to focus on steps to eliminate out of pocket costs for life saving drugs. He understood quote, the public's frustration with what they perceived as the company's actions, actively articulating a vision that helped educate and help people understand what the company was doing and so on and so on. But the point is he had been urging Christina, urging the other health care executives to focus on taking steps to get rid of out of pocket costs for consumers. Yeah. So as smart as Luigi Mangione thinks that he is, and other people think that he

is in this elaborate plan and how much thought went into it and him being an engineer, he clearly wasn't very smart, right? Because he didn't do any research about the exact person that he was targeting. The one that he thought was the face of this healthcare industry to blame for all the costs and for essentially what they say costing people lives and the health care industry having blood on their hands. But this wasn't the man. This was the man that was actually fighting for the little people. He infiltrated the system. He worked hard. He got to the top. And then he was fighting, fighting for the very people that Luigi Mangione said he's fighting for. So he clearly didn't do his research. He didn't do his homework. And he's not as smart as he thinks

he is. The suspected killer of the UnitedHealthcare CEO amasses a cult following as law enforcement nationwide is on high alert for copycats after wanted posters of other CEOs are plastered across New York City. Cult schmalt. Why would anyone celebrate or lionize Luigi Mangione? I don't know. That's why we've got a shrink on today for that and many other reasons. But aside from would be copycats, one already emerging in Florida. Law enforcement honing in on Luigi Mangione's family. Listen. The NYPD reveals they spoke to Luigi Mangione's mother three days after Brian Thompson was gunned down. The suspect's parents filed a missing person report on Mangione in San Francisco. And in San Francisco, police sergeant believed they

recognized Mangione and wanted photos from the NYPD. Mangione's mother is called in. And while she doesn't identify her son in the photo talking about his mindset in the shooting, she said it might be something she could see him doing. OK, let me be clear to Matt Mangino. I'm going to go out on a limb and throw him another legal question. Mangino, under our jurisprudence, no one is required to be a good Samaritan. No one is required to come forward with information. While we want them to, they don't have to under the law. The one thing they cannot do is lie or in some way obstruct the course of justice. We're not the Chinese or Russian communist state where you are forced to give information. Um, no. So even if the mother,

and I'm sure she did, I was saying earlier today, Matt, I can spot my husband, my daughter, my son at, you know, 500 feet just by the way they walk, you know, the mother knew this was her son's picture. OK, she knew it was him. But under the law, she is not under any duty to come forward with that information. Well, yeah, she's not under any duty to come forward with that information. And she didn't identify him. But I think she did make a statement that this would be something that she believed he could do. So she wasn't completely uncooperative.

And maybe she was getting those words verbatim, Matt, because I want you to analyze them. And let me make sure Christina double check me on this. But the exact words I have that she, the mother, Luigi Mangione's mother said are, quote, might be something she could see him doing. Might be something she could see him doing. Do I have that right, Christina? Absolutely right. I just looked at my notes. Yeah. I wanted to read it verbatim because here, Matt Mangino, the words matter. If she obstructed police in any way, she can be charged. Her words must be parsed and must be examined under a microscope to make sure she didn't lie. And that sounds very equivocal.

It's very lukewarm. She's not saying, yeah, he did it. She's saying, well, it might be something I could see him doing, but she doesn't give him up. No, she doesn't give him up. And, you know, I don't think that she could at that point give him up. You know, she looked at a photograph. She said she was not sure that it was him. So obviously she can't be unequivocal about him committing the crime if she doesn't if she's not sure that that photograph is. Please, Matt, please. He's not my son. And I can look at the side by side and tell it's him. You know, Cheryl McCollum, let me go to you.

Little known fact, well into the early, early wee hours of the morning, Cheryl McCollum and I go on two separate wild goose chases after we learn, after we first learn that the feds are in Atlanta. Cheryl goes in the middle of the night to South Atlanta. I, in the middle of the night, go to North Atlanta, both to stake out addresses we have been told are connected to the New York health boss assassin. Cheryl, without identifying who a potential suspect was at the time, that potential suspect was related to someone formerly in law enforcement. And you and I spent many a long hour that night discussing that the law enforcement would absolutely turn over his relative. No question. But a mother, Cheryl, do you blame her? In your heart of hearts,

would you convict a mother for not turning over her son? You know, it's funny you mentioned that because you and I did have that conversation that the person that we knew, zero question they would have made that call. But here's what I said early on, and I'm going to stand by it. You can take the mama out. There's siblings, there's cousins, there's former co-workers, there's former classmates. They knew the mental state. They had reported him missing. They saw the video. They saw the face exposed photograph. I guarantee you there were phone calls and text messages between all of these people trying to get in touch with him. Where are you? Mama's words to me are very clear when she says, see him doing.

She saw that video. She saw the photograph. She knew. They all knew. Private security guards have been called in to protect McDonald's workers at an Altoona, Pennsylvania location as employees received threats since Luigi Mangione's arrest at the location. Police say officers and locals involved in the arrest have been receiving threats, and the Altoona police chief, Derek Swope, says the department takes all threats seriously.

The restaurant is flooded with negative reviews that Google is removing that include things such as rats in the kitchen. Okay, is this correct? Christina, why? Oh, the McDonald's employees have to hire security after they call law enforcement to arrest a cold blooded assassin. How are they the bad guy? When did they get so bass ackwards? It is absolutely unfathomable that you have to have security at McDonald's because you reported a crime. Now, people have been going out there. They've been seeing two and three security guards at a time, the employees there, but also the officers in that town, in that county have been getting threats, but there's this cult following surrounding him. They all paint him out to be the hero. The latest thing I've seen on social media is people are photoshopping themselves in pictures next to pictures of Mangione saying things like, we just went on this wild trip to

Las Vegas. He's the best employee ever. And they're sort of making fun of this whole situation, but there's nothing funny about a father of two getting gunned down in the middle of Manhattan assassination style. Well, you're absolutely right, Christina. As a matter of fact, listen to this. In a shocking display from a crowd in Boston, cheers erupt as pictures of Luigi Mangione are shown on a screen as the DJ plays Miley Cyrus, He Could Be The One. The event is Bop to the Top Tour's Jingle Bop and is being held at the Big Night Live venue in Boston. The crowd is heard cheering as photos of Luigi Mangione taken from his social media accounts appear on the screen. The cheers get even louder as Mangione's recent booking photos are shown. Mangione has become something of a sex symbol since his arrest,

and a fundraiser has raised over $100,000 for his legal fees, with his lawyer claiming to receive offers from people wanting to pay Mangione's legal bills. I hardly know what to say. He's the one by Miley Cyrus? Cheers erupting? People photoshopping themselves with Mangione? Why is Murder one somehow okay? Joining me is a guest who has seen literally thousands of death scenes. Joining us, Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator and professor of forensics,

Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit new series, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, you know, having lived through the murder of my fiance, it almost didn't seem real until I came down off the witness stand and I saw his bloody denim shirt on council table that he was wearing that day on the construction site where he was working. And for many years after that, it seemed like a horrible blur. I think part of the reason Mangione is seen as some sort of modern day Robin Hood is because people don't understand what murder is. And why should they?

Why should they? But could you explain what it is, what the victim went through lying there at 645 a.m. in the dark on a sidewalk in New York, hearing traffic going by and realizing he's bleeding out dead, that he would never see his children again. Yeah. You know, he takes this round to his back, Nancy, hollow point round, as a matter of fact, just like the one I have here is nine millimeter that expands to twice its size and diameter. And as it's expanding, it's a nine millimeter that expands to twice its size and diameter and as it's expanding it's ripping apart tissue uh in his chest cavity and i would i would wager that it probably clipped a lung they don't know what it's like you know as they're cheering on at their concert or whatever

the hell it was with molly cyrus playing in the background They don't know what it's like to see somebody, you know, expirating blood out of their mouth and their nose. And it's frothy. You know why it's frothy? Because it's filled with oxygen and he can't catch his breath any longer. And his life slips away. And the last thing he sees is this filthy sidewalk in NYC. But yet they continue.

They continue on with all of this nonsense. This guy is supposed to be what they call him an anti-capitalist. This is the first thing. You know what, Nancy, in some of these images, I've seen him clad in like Columbia sportswear. I saw a picture early on from Hawaii where he's wearing Ray-Ban aviators. There was another shot of him wearing probably Costa sunglasses. Gee, I don't see him walking around in homemade hemp clothing where he's making his own shoes and he's protesting about everything that's going on out there. He's living the easy life, just like these people at the concert. They have no idea what this man endured and also, more importantly, what his wife and his kids are going to have to endure

these following years as we go through. And they're going to wind up having to go to court too probably. You know, I'm thinking about everything you're saying, Joe Scott, and so many times I've wondered, I've wanted to believe, I chose to believe that Keith, my fiance, he didn't feel anything after the first bullet. But I don't think that that's true. I think that he fell over in the front seat of his truck as the perp continued to shoot him because he was shot in the back, the head, the face, the neck. He had to feel some of that. And it's agonizing, to put it euphemistically, to think what he went through.

He was still alive, his heart beating when he got finally from this remote location to the hospital. What did he feel? How much did it hurt? Did he realize what was happening to him? Did he think of me? Is there anything I could have done? What do you think that these boys are going to grow up wondering about their dad dying on the sidewalk? And Dr. Bethany, I mean, the complete futility of gunning down Thompson. And now the children have to grow up wondering, why did this happen to my dad for the rest of their lives? And people are celebrating it. Nancy, the children and the public will have to come to terms with the fact that this alleged crime did not come from an altruistic place.

If Mangione had wanted to change the health care system, he could have become an organizer, a politician. He could have helped change legislation. He could have served on the board of the hospital that his family donated a million dollars to. Again, I don't know Mangione. I've never seen him personally, but the public who is idolizing him needs to place in context the personality of somebody who could have antisocial personality disorder. They relate to others on the basis of power, not affection. They like to torture. They like to humiliate. I would think it would be fascinating to find, to really locate a girl perhaps that he dated. How did he treat that girl? Perhaps he put her on a pedestal at first and when she rejected him,

he stopped her. I mean, I'm just, I'm making this up, but I want the public to understand that this is not just somebody who shot somebody. This is somebody, a full person with a full identity, who lacks empathy, who is impulsive, who really may well not care about anyone around him. He just committed the crime because it was exciting, not because he was trying to help anybody out. To Tom Smith, following up on Joe Scott and Dr. Bethany, Tom Smith, former NYPD, 30 years on these very streets, star of the Gold Shields podcast. Tom, I think that people are just misguided. I don't think that they're hateful or that they truly want murder to occur. They have no reason to understand what it's like to go to a homicide scene, the smell of coagulating blood, the obvious signs of a struggle where the victim wanted to live.

They're not forced to think about it the way we are when we give closing statements, when we build a case, or in your case, when you investigate murders. Could you explain what a murder scene, what a murder really is? It's not like in the movies or TV. No, it's horrible. It's the worst scene to go to as a detective because every element of emotion is in there. You know, you want to get it done, but you're feeling for the victim. And you described it perfectly.

And it's not instant. A bunch of times in any homicide, it's not instant. There's pain. There's struggling. there's thoughts. And then from there, you're dealing with the families and notifications and interviews, which is always heartbreaking, especially like in this case, you're dealing with children and you're dealing with a wife. And those emotions carry on throughout the investigation.

And these people who are just clamoring onto this have no idea of the reality that homicides entail. And it's evident by their statements and their actions, which are totally despicable. The beach bomb life of alleged CEO slayer Luigi Mangione is revealed as roommates and friends speak out. The former Ivy League student and software engineer gallivanting in Hawaii and Japan before the murder. Luigi Mangione being celebrated all around the world, he is a killer. How did this guy turn into a sex symbol? I don't understand this, but what I do know is that Brian Thompson died a painful death alone, face down on a New York sidewalk.

His family, his children and wife far, far away. So who is luigi mangione who is the real luigi mangione is he a back pain riddled patient or a free-willing beach bum living a privileged life on a beach photos and comments from friends living alongside mangione in hawaii indicate the accused shooter had fun hanging out with beautiful women and tan buddies at the $2,000 a month retreat surf break. This image is a far cry from the man who says his lower vertebrae is misaligned reportedly by at least half an inch. Mangione has posted an x-ray of his spine with multiple screws holding bones together. Mangione says the pain makes it impossible for him to have sex. Okay, Christina Arroyo joining us, National News Anchor's Hill News Channel. I've seen photos of

Luigi Mangione practicing yoga, Tinder matching with a yoga guru, tickling multiple girls in a hallway all at once with them laughing giddily. He doesn't look like he's in pain to me. And somehow we're chalking off his actions because he was in intense. Okay. He's not in intense back pain right there. Help me out here, Christina. What about his beach bum life just before the assassination?

Right. Well, in any case, no matter how much pain you're in, it's never okay to murder somebody. But according to these pictures, according to everything that all of his friends are saying, he did have a lot of fun. He was surfing. He was on the beaches. He was living in a high rise in Hawaii. And in fact, right around the time he disappeared, he traipsed off to Asia and he went on a backpacking trip. He actually bragged about having the ability to fit everything that he needed to live into one tiny little backpack because he was talking about having this minimalist lifestyle. Like we talked about on our last conversation, he is a walking, talking contradiction. So is this whole back pain scenario a cover?

Is this an excuse for why he allegedly committed the crime that he did? Is his real life this party boy? Is he a narcissist? What drove him? But we do know that there are two different Luigi Mangione's. And I tell you what, if he's bragging about having everything he needs in a tiny little backpack, then he's about to have everything he needs in a 15 by six cell, because that's where if he gets convicted, he will be spending the rest of his life exactly the way he wanted to in a minimalist fashion. You know, Tom Smith joining me, former NYPD detective and co-host of the Gold Shields podcast. Don't you ever get tired of entitled brats whining about the world and how awful it is while they've got mommy's gold card? Yeah, he's got everything he needs that can fit in one backpack or more,

a better put in one wallet, as long as he's got his parents money. This is a guy living in a high rise in Honolulu, waking up to the beach every morning. Did you wake up to a beach view this morning? Because I sure did not. Living in this luxury high rise with a group of other beach bums in a shared space, photoed tickling girls in the hallway, multiple girls at once. Every shot I see of him, he's out in nature. He's not at once. Every shot I see of him, he's out in nature. He's not at work. We keep hearing he quit his job. He was laid off. Gee, I wonder why. Maybe the job interfered with the

tickling. I don't know. But don't you ever get exhausted with all the whining and complaining of, oh my goodness, he might as well have bunked up at the Ritz. The whining and complaining, Tom Smith, we are talking about murder. It just, it's one after another with these stories and thinking, I can get away with it because of who mom and dad are and the money that I have. And it never ends up that way, but it continues to happen. And these stories continue to come up with these crimes. Cheryl McCollum, I assume you've seen the beach bum photos, and the $2,000 a month high rise, and the frolicking in Honolulu.

Nancy is baffling. He is, again, a walking contradiction. Everything about this kid, he makes you look right to only force you to go left because it doesn't make any sense. He's a tech expert, but he uses a notebook. He supposedly is against, you know, this wealthy CEO, yet he comes for money. He now is going to hire this top-notch attorney, but people are sending him money for his defense. He sits there and says, well, you know, I'm going to make this ghost gun so I can get away with this crime, yet he shows his face. His mom reports him missing, even though, you know, he's this kid that's bouncing around from island to, you know, big city and all around. He is a walking contradiction. And it's one of the

reasons that I believe the DA is going to be able to put together this story of just how full of crap he is when he says, hey, I picked this person to murder and didn't even look them up properly. One of the most interesting things from the Luigi Mangione case is the fact that there's a repetition of the number 286. On the banner of his ex profile, he has the Pokemon creature known as Breloom, which is number 286 in the collection. Luigi also has exactly 286 posts on ex. According to somebody on Twitter, Luigi was found at a McDonald's exactly 286 miles away from the crime scene. That is just one of many, many Luigi Mangione conspiracies on TikTok. That one tied in to Pokemon somehow.

Straight out to Cheryl McCollum, founder, director, Cold Case Research Institute and star of Zone 7. Cheryl, the conspiracy theories are just starting, okay? Oh, yeah. But it's spreading, it's infecting. As a matter of fact, one University of Pennsylvania professor lauded Mangione online. Of course, she's since taken that down and apologized. But I don't get the lionization, the glorification of Luigi Mangione and all these far-fetched theories, even going as far as Pokemon. Well, let's talk about hidden messages in one of the issues with them. They can be misinterpreted. 286 is an angel number, literally means prosperity in your finances.

In California criminal code, it's sodomy. So he might want to be pretty clear about what he's talking about. I guess what I'm getting at, and I'm going to go to Joe Scott Morgan on this, is the disconnect between what Mangione allegedly did, now facing brand new murder one charges, very, very rare in the state of New York. What he actually did and these far-fetched, trivial, frivolous conspiracy theories. Yeah. Prediction, by the way, as with all these guys, people are going to start getting tattoos of his face on their body that they will wear forever and ever. The reality is, is that this guy planned and perpetrated a homicide on a New York City street, and he left behind two orphaned kids as a result of these actions, allegedly. All right. So my

question is, going back to this idea that, you know, he's living this life. Where's he getting all of this money from in order to, you know, you said he was unemployed, Nancy. Does he still get money from his family? How does he afford to go out and create a ghost weapon? I don't understand that. And not just a ghost weapon, a suppressed ghost weapon. He acquires ammunition. He's living in a place that's $2,000 a month. And you're telling me that his mom doesn't know where he is. She's listed him as a missing person. I'm not buying it. I think that there's a lot more here relative to what his activities have been. And they need to stay focused on the things that they can prove in this case, instead of all of this ancillary nonsense that people are getting caught up in with this bozo. You know, I wouldn't want to wish this pain on anyone, much less the TikTokers who are

glorifying him. I wouldn't want anyone to know the pain of the person you love the most being murdered, just shot down in cold blood in a misdirected Robin Hood attempt. At this hour, we are hearing that Mangione is no longer going to fight extradition from Pennsylvania. Why? Maybe he wants a different C.I. Correctional Institute. Maybe he thinks the conditions would be better inal Institute. Maybe he thinks the conditions would be better in New York. Maybe it's more convenient for his lawyers. But who can get into the mind of an alleged killer? Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.