Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Investigators reveal new evidence that makes Robert Wagner their 'person of interest' in Natalie Wood's death

Episode Date: February 6, 2018

Los Angeles sheriff's investigators go on record with suspicions about how Natalie Wood died in 1981, naming the actress's husband Robert Wagner a "person of interest." Nancy Grace digs into the latest revelations with lawyer & psychologist Dr. Brian Russell, death scene investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, and reporter John Lemley. Grace and guests also look at the case against a California woman who admitted to intentionally driving into incoming traffic on a busy freeway in a failed suicide attempt, causing a fatal crash that killed a young father. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. The bombshell news last week that a person of interest has been named in the death of Hollywood icon Natalie Wood. That POI person of interest, none other than TV star, her husband, Robert Wagner. We're going straight to a police presser that has just gone down. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

Alan, take me to the presser. Good morning. My name is Christopher Bergner, and I'm the captain for the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department's Homicide Bureau. Thank you all for coming out this morning. In 2011, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department reopened the investigation of Natalie Wagner Wood and her drowning death. As a result of these efforts, witnesses were identified in 2011 and 2012 that weren't previously known. This case remains a suspicious circumstances death, and the information that came forward in 2011 and 2012 has helped present a more articulate timeline in this case. I'd like to thank the witnesses that came forward at that time for providing information and reach out to the general public for those that have firsthand knowledge of the circumstances

that occurred that night with Ms. Wood. And I'll turn it over to Lieutenant John Carina for additional information regarding this case. First of all, I have to apologize. Last week I got that flu that's going around, as you can tell, and so I got that deep, gravelly voice, so I've got to take a break here and take a drink of water. Bear with me. As Captain Bergner was saying, we took another look at this case back in 2011,

and that's really the only press conference we did on this case was back then. We held one press conference, and from that press conference, we ended up with like well over 100 people came forward with information about this case. People were very wanting to get involved, and they wanted to kind of tell us what they knew. And it was extremely helpful because we ended up identifying witnesses or people who had information about the case who had never come forward. So they ended up coming forward and telling us their story. And that's one of the things we've run into in this case, in many cases,

is like people don't think their information or what they know might be might not be important well it was in this case and it's helped us recreate some of the timeline and what happened on that weekend and then right up to the point where Natalie Wood ends up going into the water. So it's been extremely helpful for us. Now, this was back in 2011, 2012, 2013. You know, it's been a little while, but we've been investigating the case. And up until about a year and a half ago, we were still getting information and tips from people calling in, although they were just trickling in then. And things have kind of dried up now. So we were approached by a news

agency, wanted to take another look at the case. We thought it was a good idea to try and go ahead and do that and get it back out in the public eye and that's what we did. We thought it was a good idea just letting everyone know kind of where we're at with the investigation and that's why we're here today. Nancy, that news organization was the CBS show 48 Hours and Los Angeles County Sheriff's Detective John Corrina continues answering questions from reporters. What is the concerning thing that happened? Well there's new witnesses and there has we have looked at really what we've we we've interviewed a lot of new people and people on the island people who were more near the boat that

night or that weekend people who had a know the couple or had knowledge of what was going on that weekend so it's been extremely helpful in recreating what happened saying that she had seen Mr. or seen two people a man and a woman on the back of the boat they heard the voices that identified them as Hollywood and Robert Wagner. Who is this person? How is it that they didn't think that was important in 1981 and is there any discussion about re-interviewing Robert Wagner? Well the first part of that question is there's actually more than one witness who came forward and heard him on the back of the boat arguing. And what was important about that is they corroborated what Dennis DuBrun was saying, that he was on the boat and heard the arguing, and that it was really intense and so bad that he had went down to the cabin to check on them

because he was worried that there was some kind of assault going on. And that's when he was told to go away by Robert Wagner. And then Natalie and Robert Wagner end up on the back of the boat arguing, and then it goes quiet. So those witnesses, who were on a different boat nearby, corroborate exactly what Dennis DeVern was telling us. And yes, of course, we want to talk to Robert Wagner. You bet. We would love to hear his side of his version of events. The version of events he's portrayed in the media,

I think we told the original investigators and what he's portrayed since then really don't add up to what we found or what we found by talking to other people that weekend, what they've seen, what they saw, what they heard. Lieutenant Corona and his partner, Detective Ralph Hernandez, now say they have testimony from two witnesses, both of whom say they heard a fight, one of whom, according to Hernandez, quote, saw figures on the back of the Splendor, a male and a female,

whose voices they recognized as Robert Wagner and Natalie Wood, arguing, important, in the back of the boat. Originally, the only information detectives had placing the couple outside the boat was boat captain Dennis DeVern's statement. But as detective Corrina tells 48 Hours, they now have a witness who not only heard them, but saw them. Saw figures on the back of the Splendor, male and a female, whose voices they recognized as being Robert Wagner and Natalie Wood,

arguing in the back of the boat. And how credible are these new witnesses? They're very credible. They have no reason to lie, and their story matches what Dennis DeVern says. Like DeVern, both witnesses say the argument stopped suddenly. And then all of a sudden there was nothing. Complete silence. Nothing but the sounds of a rough sea

on a cold, dark November night, says Lieutenant Carina. No one saw anybody go in the water. Nobody heard a splash. Nobody heard anything. They just heard the argument and silence. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, that is big, Joe Scott, and I'll tell you why. It places him, Robert Wagner, the POI, person of interest, at the back of the yacht where the dinghy is tied up and where many people believe that's where she exited, let me say euphemistically, the boat. Right there at the dinghy. He, according to these two witnesses, not me, not Alan, not Jackie, not Brian or anyone else. Two witnesses place them at the back of the yacht at the spot of the dinghy,

arguing in the night she goes overboard along with the dinghy being let loose. That's bad. Yeah, it is bad. I think from an investigative standpoint, I would have to ask this question, though. How did the people that are earwitnesses, eyewitnesses, how did they recognize specifically the voices of Robert Wagner and Natalie Wood, distinguish them from all other voices on the face of the planet? I would have to press that question. Maybe they did hear arguing. Maybe they did bear witness to it. But I think that that's going to be a big question that's going to come up. All of a sudden, this kind of floats to the surface. All of a sudden, these

two people that materialize, it leaves me scratching my head a bit here. What we do know in this particular case is that I've examined the autopsy report many times on Natalie Wood and even used it in class to teach my classes with. She doesn't have what we would commonly refer to as some kind of fatal trauma where she's been hammered to the point, beaten to the point where she has a depressed skull fracture or anything. Most of the stuff that she has are very superficial, but her lungs were filled with water. We do know that. Nancy, we also know from the ship captain, Dennis DeVern, the details about the argument that night after the couple and Christopher Walken returned from the restaurant on the island. Here's how he and Detective Corrina explain it to 48 Hours.

Natalie puts on the kettle to have a cup of tea. I light a couple candles. I opened a bottle of wine. Natalie and Christopher continued to giggle, just having fun. And then Robert Wagner, out of the clear blue blue picked up the bottle of wine and smashed her it breaks and goes everywhere and he yells at walking when you try to do my wife everything just kind of stops natalie she said i cannot take this and she went into her room. According to Duvern, Christopher Walken also went to his room. Then RJ went into the room, Natalie and RJ's room, started

arguing, yelling, things being thrown about. At that point Duvern also leaves and goes up to the bridge at the top of the boat says Lieutenant Carina he hears him arguing the arguments getting louder and he hears a lot of thumping he says it sounds to him like there's like a fizzle fight going on inside there to the point where he's so concerned he walks back down and he knocks on the door and Robert Wagner opens the door and he says he has this look crazy look on his face and he says is everything okay door and he says, he has this look, crazy look on his face. And he says, is everything okay, boss? And he's like, go away. He looks so angry.

He says, I was worried about my own safety. And I just, I left. I went back up to the bridge. Take a listen to what Robert Wagner himself says. Now his account of that evening is very different. Walken and I got into an argument. At one point, I picked up a wine bottle, slammed it on the table, and broke it into pieces.

Natalie was already below decks at that point. Ellen Killoran joining me, investigative reporter with CrimeOnline.com. What do you make of it? Well, Wagner had changed his story a little bit even in the time when he was speaking to investigators. Initially, he said that he felt that Natalie wanted to get away from the argument that she had been having with him all weekend and went back to shore, went back to land. And then later he said, well, maybe she went out

and heard a dingy-bengy against the boat, tried to untie it and slipped and fell. Yes, you know, Ellen, in his 2008 memoir, Wagner addressed the dinghy theory. Let's listen. Natalie was in the master cabin and heard the dinghy banging against the side. She got up to retie it. She slipped on the swim step on the stern and was either stunned or knocked unconscious and rolled into the water. The loose dinghy floated away. My theory fits the few facts we have. Those are two really

different things and both of them seem pretty incredible given what we know about Natalie, which was that she was absolutely terrified of the water. And even if she did hear the dingy-bangy against the boat and wanted the noise to stop, she could have asked the captain to do that. She didn't have to go do that on her own. Joe Scott, why you in? I think that I'd be very curious, Nancy, if she was debilitated in some way, hampered. And that's the big question I've asked for some time. Could drugs or alcohol have played into this? I don't know that she had enough substances on board to have in her

system that would have impaired her ability to make good judgments here. And, you know, it just seems the whole thing seems like a red herring, you know, for all these years. They're talking about two guys having an argument over the wife and suddenly, you know, the dinghy is cut loose. She's found floating in the water some period of time later. It's all very confusing. I don't find it that confusing and dennis davern uh came clean long ago take a listen i believe that robert wagner was with her up until the moment she went into the water i need all the energy i can muster to continue giving it my all being a mom of two and investigating the major crimes across our country, like Natalie Wood's tragic drowning.

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movie and TV star Robert Wagner named a person of interest in the horrific drowning death of his wife, movie icon Natalie Wood. How do you see Robert Wagner? Is he a person of interest? Is he a suspect? Has he always been a person of interest? Well, he hasn't always been a person of interest. Obviously, he was on the boat. There were four people on the boat that night. One of them ended up in the water dead. But as the investigation progressed, I mean, we were able to recreate the timeline and get it down to where he was the last person with her on the back of the boat arguing before everything went quiet. And then next thing you know, Dennis DeVern comes down to check on what happened,

and there's Robert Wagner in the salon of the boat. He's saying Natalie's gone. She's missing, you know. And then he sends them to go look around the boat to look for Natalie. It's not that big of a boat. And next thing you know, he tells them, oh, and by the way, the dinghy's now gone. So it didn't make any sense. No one heard the dinghy start up.

No one heard the dinghy take off. No one heard the dinghy take off. She doesn't drive the dinghy. I get one and on, but, yeah, it just didn't add up. Right now he's officially a person of interest? Well, he's a person of interest because he's the last person with her before she went in the water, right? So he's there, he's the last one with her, and somehow she gets in the water. Lieutenant, what's the difference between a person of interest and a suspect in your view?

Well, you know, this is a suspicious death investigation. It's not a murder investigation. So he's not a suspect of a community murder or a crime. We're just trying to figure out what happened from that point, from that argument, and then how she got in the water. But what's a person of interest? Just that. He's a person of interest like he was there with her, last person with her, before she ends up dead.

Can you make him talk to you that now that he's a person of interest because he's denied? Not in the United States of America we can't. He can say, no, I don't want to talk to you. And that's his right. We understand that. And we've tried to talk to him. And so far he doesn't want to talk to us. Could there be a point where you decide we want to press charges against him?

No, not right now. Like I said, this is a suspicious death investigation. We're not pressing charges on anyone. We're still trying to just figure out what happened. Lieutenant, would you say there's anything in this case, in evidence so far? What's that be? Would you say there's anything in the evidence that you have so far, witnesses plus physical evidence,

which would indicate there were aggressive actions taken which led to the death of Patrick Wilson? Well, you know, that's, I would have to say there was, what Dennis DeVern heard, you know, it sounded like a fight going on in the salon in their stateroom, in their bedroom. It sounded like Robert Wagner and Natalie Wood were fighting. And he came down from the top of the boat to check on him because he was so worried. He said Robert Wagner looked so angry, so crazy that he told him he was afraid for his own safety, so he went back up.

And Robert Wagner told him, get out of here. So he went back up to the top of the boat. And then they end up on the back of the boat arguing before everything went quiet. And then, yes, there were bruises on Natalie Wood's body that, that's the coroner's purview, obviously. They're the experts. But they say they're non-mechanical. They were caused probably by another person.

So in essence, we are saying that whoever was there at the end of it, would have inflicted those injuries, which could be consistent, with either a struggle, a fight, or someone getting tossed or thrown off the back of that boat. Yeah, I can't say who caused the injuries, but they could have been caused by someone else. What's that? There aren't that many people in the boat.

Right. And we know who was with her before she went. The last person who was with her was Mr. Wagner. Are we any closer to solving this case today than we were 30 years ago? We're closer to understanding what happened. I think we're closer to understanding exactly what happened that weekend and how it kind of went down. I think before, we were all believing the story, oh she must have gotten the deal, she tried to go into town in her nightgown or socks by herself when it's raining out and the

seas are really rough and you can't even see them at midnight and which made no absolutely no sense if you really think about it so I think we're have a better understanding now what happened. Is Christopher Wolf in a person they trust as well? No, he's not, no. He was actually supposed to be in the stateroom sleeping. And DeVern confirmed that when he went searching for Natalie Wood, he was in the stateroom sleeping.

And just one other thing, the two witnesses you say, are they separate from the two who previously reported the stockbroker and their boyfriend John? Yes. Are they two separate witnesses? Yes. Yes. No, we can never force forced to talk to you? No, we can never force him to talk to us. Obviously, he has rights and he can not talk to us if he doesn't want to, suspect or not.

But the only time it's going to turn out to be an accident or a murder is when we find out how she went in the water. Was she placed in the water? Was she placed in the water? Was she unconscious and then placed in the water? Was she put in the water by somebody? Or did she accidentally fall in the water and nobody helped her? Have you seen this bike in relevant information since the 48-hour project? I'm sorry, what was that?

Have you previously interviewed Mr. Wagner? No, we have not. Have you seen any relevant information coming your way since the 48 hours broadcast this weekend? We have gotten a lot of calls, people calling again, and saying they have some information they can give us, yes. So we have been picking up quite a few callers, people leaving tips.

You earlier said that his story has changed over the years, is that what you said? Can you explain that? Well, I'm no expert on this, but I know his original story, what he said that happened that weekend, they're all talking in the salon. She went down below to the stateroom, their bedroom. The next thing he knows, he goes, checks on her, and she's gone.

So he figures, oh, she must have gotten a dinghy and went into town in her pajamas, in her socks, in the middle of the night. For some reason, it's raining now, she's going to go take the dinghy. She never drives, probably doesn't know how to drive it, and take it into town. When the Vern suggests, hey, we should turn on the light to look for her, he says, no, no, no. Instead of saying, yeah, let's look for her, no, no, no, turn the light on. Well, he says, we should call somebody. No, no, no, let's wait. And he's on a

boat himself. He can unhook his own boat and go look for her. He doesn't even do that. Instead, he takes the Vern up to the top of the boat, starts climbing with alcohol for the next hour and a half, getting them drunk while they wait around, see what happens. I want to go straight to Ellen Killoran joining me, investigative reporter with CrimeOnline.com. Also with me, Joseph Scott Morgan, death scene investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University.

Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist and host of I.D.'s hit series, Fatal Vows. Ellen and Jackie joining in. Ellen, what can you tell me about recent reports that have also just hit that Robert Wagner says he drank whiskey for an hour after Natalie's vanishing? That's right.

In the 48-hour special this weekend, the captain of the Splendor, Dennis DeVern, who has said for a long time that he believes Wagner had something to do with it, said in the show that Wagner knew around midnight that Natalie was gone, but he refused to do anything to look for her in the water. Duvern said, let's put on the floodlights and look into the water. He said, no, no, no, she's probably just gone to shore. And the two of them sat for over an hour and drank whiskey before Wagner made a call to anyone, which was about at 1.30 before he called anyone at all. Okay, to me, that's damning. Yes. But it's certainly not enough to build a case at trial. That's not enough to prosecute actor Robert Wagner. Wagner now facing intense pressure regarding the boating death of his beautiful actress wife, Natalie Wood.

Allegations surfacing he sat up drinking whiskey with the boat captain over an hour after Natalie goes missing before decided to call the Coast Guard. Now the yachts captain told me that himself, but listen to what he says on 48 hours. According to the story, DuVern told investigators, Wagner then breaks out a bottle of scotch and the two men sit drinking while more than an hour passes. Before you know it, we're oblivious, and it's time we have to call somebody. She's gone. We've long heard claims that Robert Wagner, furious, believing that Natalie Wood

was flirting with her co-star in Brainstorm, Christopher Walken, that he smashed a bottle of wine in front of them and said to Walken, what are you trying to do? F my wife? Well, I guess that's the end of that party, right? Dr. Brian Russell, I mean when someone

smashes a wine bottle in front of your guest and accuses them of trying to be with their wife, yeah, that's the end of that party, Brian. Yeah, and it really does. You're right. This is damning stuff, and it paints a picture of a potential. At least you hear this, and you can understand how it could have been a fatal vows case.

At the same time, I'm worried, as you know, we've discussed this before, about this trend. Dr. Russell, how is it that you managed to work in the name fatal vows into every conversation you and somehow you work in investigation discoveries, fatal vows, hit series. Okay. You know what? There, I think I've said it enough. I'll say it some more. Okay. Dr. Brian Russell, how should this have been in your hit series, fatal vows? Go ahead. The floor is yours. I don't know that it should. And what I was going to say is I'm worried about this trend

that we're seeing where, you know, a crime happens a long time ago. And now here comes somebody making a documentary or a Netflix series or a podcast or whatever about it. And all of a sudden, we're getting new stories

from the same people or different stories from different people. And now there's a big, if somebody was found guilty before, now there's a bunch of big exculpatory evidence. Or if nobody was found guilty before, now there's damning evidence. I'm worried about that trend. And I don't, I agree with you. As interesting television as this may have made for 48 hours, I'm worried about putting too much stock in it, especially when people are telling stories for the first time that they supposedly have known for all these years. And just now they're deciding when they have a chance to be in a television special. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, write it in, Dr. Brian Russell. Curb your enthusiasm just a moment.

It's not all on 48 hours. What about what police say? Listen to Lieutenant Corona and his partner, Detective Ralph Hernandez. How many times has Mr. Wagner refused to be interviewed by his partner? I think we've reached out to him like two or three times, and through him and through his attorney, and he's refused to talk to us. And these two new witnesses, as an investigator, 30 years has elapsed, and suddenly they remember something that is very interesting to you. I mean, people tend to change or view of things as time goes on. And maybe they think, I mean, how credible are these new witnesses?

Our biggest challenge is time, right? Many of the witnesses have passed away. People were in boats nearby. The original investigator on the case passed away recently. So it's like, you're right, time's our biggest enemy here. We can only do what we can do. So we're reaching out one last time to see if people or anybody else will come forward with the information they know. Like I said, we already did a bunch more calls just by doing this,

and people are calling in and offering some information. And with the information you have today, you do not think you can call this a homicide or charge Mr. Wagner with death? Correct. That's right. Thank you. Can I talk about the treatment that you have? Have you found a gun yet?

You've got a lot more question. Well, I was wondering how many unsolved homicides in this case did you have and why are you spending time on one? You know, we were asked back in 2011 to look at this case. It's not something we went out and sought. We were asked by the captain then of homicide back in 2011 to take a look at the case because some information came in. I wasn't even on the department. I know Detective Hernandez wasn't on the department when this incident even happened. So we looked at it and we said, yeah, there's some questions there. It's worth taking a look at. So we did. And I think it just opened up more questions. And actually, I think from the investigation, we have a much better idea of what happened there. So I think it's been very productive. It's actually given us more questions and made us more suspicious of what happened that weekend. John, without going into anything on your mind, without saying publicly,

is there an informal time limit based on all this information that you're now assessing or you're going to have to make a decision for fiscal or other reasons to Fisher F.A. close this case permanently or continue to go ahead with it? Right I think you know we're doing our last shot here and seeing what anybody else come forward with any information but you're right we can't keep up working this case we work a lot of cases and we juggle a lot of cases, so we're not just working this one. We're doing other cases as well. So, you know, we work what we can. If there's information to follow up on, we will.

And when the tips all dry up, then I guess we move on to the next case. Mr. Senator, back in 2013, we spoke to some people on Kite Line. Doug Bombard was one of them. We found her by the issue. I believe we spoke to him. He firmly believed that the evidence would suggest that the others were asleep on the boat and it was so rough in the water

and the dinghy was banging around that she went back to try to tie up the movie and fell off the boat and hit her head, fell in the water, and drowned. Does the evidence not support that theory? No, it doesn't. That's all conjecture. I'll just make up a story that I think might have happened. No, it doesn't. That's all conjecture. I'll just make up a story that I think might have happened.

No, it doesn't support that. And Natalie Wood's a big movie star. We all remember back then, she's like one of the biggest movie stars. And she doesn't do that kind of stuff. She's going to tell Dennis DeVern, he's the boat caretaker, hey, go take care of that boat. And even DeVern said the boat was not banging on the

boat. The dinghy was not banging on the boat. They tie it there all the time. That's where they tie it. And they know what they're doing. They go out all the time on the boat. It's not like you can't just make up a story. I think that's what happened. What do you make of it, Dr. Russell? The idea that there was an argument aboard this vessel between Wagner and Wood is not new. That's been out there for decades. The big supposedly new news here is that Wagner supposedly sat there drinking for a long time before saying, okay, we better maybe alert the authorities that she's missing. Now, you can imagine that perhaps he had something to do with it. And so he thinks,

okay, I don't want to alert the authorities for a while because i want to make sure that she's uh good and dead before they show up on the scene uh don't want him to rescue her okay maybe but it's also possible that he really believed that she left on her own volition and and he was miffed about that and he thought well you know okay she took off she went ashore uh she's she's doing what she wants to do, and he's drowning his sorrows in alcohol. And then after a while, he sort of thinks, well, I better make sure she made it to shore safely. I better call the authorities and have them look for her. So, you know, the bottom line of this for me is I don't think we're going to solve this. Unless he had something to do with it and he comes clean and confesses all these years

later i don't think we're solving it take a listen to what the person of interest natalie's husband robert wagner tv star has to say when you're in love you're responsible for the other one she's responsible for me and i was responsible for her and you, this accident that occurred, I wasn't there. I wasn't there for her. And that's always within me. Take a listen to what Natalie's sister, Lana Wood, tells us. Lana, is it true that detectives told you they were very close to making an arrest in the case? Absolutely. They came to my home and said that they had everything they needed for an arrest and that the district attorney would not move forward.

And I said, I don't understand. And he said, please get that word out because they feel that there's something going on. And I said, fine, if somebody asks me, I will tell them. So they came to your house and said they have enough for an arrest, but the DA is sitting on it. Yes. Did you believe that they were referring to Robert Wagner? Did they tell you it was Robert Wagner? Oh, of course. Yes Wagner? Did they tell you it was Robert Wagner? Oh, of course.

Yes. Yes. They told you it was Robert Wagner. That's what they said. Nancy, Natalie's sister, Lana Wood, is now back with us. Ms. Wood, what is your initial reaction to hearing this Los Angeles County Sheriff's news conference? That's actually a very complicated answer. My first reaction is I'm

incredibly grateful to them for this amount of time, the perseverance that they've shown, the work that they've put into this case, I think, is absolutely phenomenal. Every time I hear something new, it's upsetting, it's jarring. You know, I'm so torn at everything because I know that it causes me pain, it causes my family, It causes Natalie's family. But it's really, really at the point where enough is enough. You know, the truth has to come out. If I've got to fight for it, I will. I have to, you know, set aside a lot of things that I've never really wanted to entertain and go forward and try everything I possibly can to get at the truth. It's just there are too many things about all of this that have always bothered me, but I've never had a voice like that of the detectives who have said, you know, this fact, this fact, this fact, this fact. Well, you can't ignore that. I don't understand how anyone can.

I know it's an ugly thing to face, but it's something that happened. And I think it's time we all face it. Miss Wood, do you expect that Robert Wagner will finally sit for an interview with the sheriff's investigators? I don't know. He never has. He has lied to my face. His attorneys have, you know, dodged around saying he's cooperating. No, he didn't. He cooperated at the initial investigation 30-odd years ago. He has never cooperated, but yet he looked me in the face and said he did I this simply

astounds me because I do have a great belief in the truth and I don't understand there are many things I don't understand about things that have happened. Seriously, if my dog fell overboard on a boat during the middle of the night in a cold, dark night, I would be in the water trying to get that dog. I don't know of anybody who wouldn't. Natalie was his wife. Then when they found her,

why didn't he why did he go to her and and stay with her with her body you know I they I don't understand any of this behavior why I you know I just don't understand any of it you would think that you, you would do anything on earth if someone was investigating to help. Why isn't he helping? Why does he refuse to do that? Ms. Wood, after all of these years, to hear this news conference by investigators, is it satisfying in some way or just bittersweet? Bittersweet, yes, but yes, it is. I don't know if satisfying is the proper word that I would use, but it's jarring, but it also gives me hope. And I've never had hope. I've buried my head in the sand.

I've not wanted to deal with it. I don't want to hurt. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do that. Well, that attitude is over. You know, this has given me A new lease on life This has got to be Seen through

And I've got to stand up for Natalie And I wish I wish RJ would have The courage to say what happened And if he's made mistakes He should have the courage to say what happened. And if he's made mistakes, he should have the courage to admit them. You know, I want to wring my hands. I become so frustrated.

But I'm also hopeful at the same time, which is why I said initially the answer is complicated. Lots of different feelings all at once. Robert Wagner. He is not a suspect. He is a person of interest. And now we head to California where an allegedly suicidal 28-year-old woman kills a father of two, an aspiring doctor, by, in an attempt to kill herself herself drives the wrong way up an interstate

where people are going 75 85 miles an hour and smashing colliding crashing head on into this father of two's car grace elizabeth ward allegedly drives directly into oncoming traffic on Interstate 5 near Redding, California, just killing, it's horrible, a father of two, Ryan Folsom, in a head-on collision, allegedly driving straight through a central barrier to carry out her deadly maneuver. Folsom was on his way to an interview, an aspiring doctor. His wife is pregnant with their third child. And all that happens to Grace Elizabeth Ward on her suicidal mission, she gets a broken leg.

That's it. Why? Straight to John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Take it from the top. John, what happened? Nancy, all of this took place on a Sunday near the city of Redding in Northern California. That former college football star and young father, Ryan Folsom, was on Interstate 5 heading to an interview for a residency position as a doctor. At the same time, Grace Elizabeth Ward is in her car, also on I-5. She's heading north on the highway when all of a sudden,

she steers her car into the cable that divides the north and southbound lanes. She hits the cable, but it doesn't break. She drives a little further. She finds an opening in the cable meant for emergency vehicles. She drives through and stops on the other side of the median. It's at this point that Ward picks up her phone and calls her mom. Now, this is anything but a casual catch-up. Ward tells her mom that she's going to kill herself. After a few minutes, Ward hangs up, hits the accelerator, right into oncoming traffic. There are three vehicles that narrowly manage to avoid colliding with Ward. Then, finally, Ward hits a Honda Accord with such force

that the impact flips her vehicle and catapults this Honda down an embankment. Ward's vehicle immediately bursts into flames right there on the highway. The other car is hidden from view, completely out of sight for the moment. Ward has just smashed into Ryan Folsom, and he has just a matter of minutes before he dies. I'm overwhelmed. I've heard of, you know, homicide by suicide or suicide homicide packs but murdering another person an unknown person in your attempt to commit suicide dr brian russell with me lawyer and psychologist host of id's fatal vows hit series dr russell i guess people that are trying to commit suicide, and it has been said that every deeply thinking person has wondered, at least wondered about suicide before. But when you're in the throes of a suicidal ideation, I guess other human life means nothing to you. I

don't have the words. I'm just a lawyer. To describe what I think was going on in her mind, of course, it's no defense under the law, Dr. Bryan. Well, you're correct that suicide is a very self-focused act. However, the vast majority of suicidal people do not intend or even think about taking others out at the same time. So there's something else going on here. As you know, I literally wrote the book on entitlement, and this is just about the height of entitlement, if you think about it, that somebody is going to soothe their own psychological pain and take themselves out of this world to get away from it. But in the process, the way they're going to do that is by taking somebody else out with them or multiple other people. It's kind of like the height of this idea was a few years ago when the

German wings pilot took the entire plane down as a means apparently of killing himself and took out hundreds of other people with him. Thank God, you know, this is as horrible as this is. It's amazing that she only took out one person. and their two children, two little boys, and his wife now expecting a third child. She, Ward, tells investigators reportedly that she deliberately carried out the maneuver because she wanted to kill herself, according to KRCR-TV. This guy, Ryan Folsom, a college football star, just starting his medical career, waiting for his third child to be born. You know, Joe Scott Morgan, I often hear,

why do good people get mowed down and bad people thrive? I just get overwhelmed sometimes, Joe Scott, by the nature of homicide. The old adage, wrong place, wrong time, comes to mind. And the big thing about it is, I'm sure that everybody would sit around and ask these questions about, you know, why, why, why? Um, and I think that this young mother is left, uh, with the question, what, you know, what, what am I going to do now? What am I going to do now? Um, I'm absent my partner in life here. I've got a baby on the way. I've got two other beautiful little angels that I'm taking care of and their daddy's gone. I mean, just, just wiped off of the face of the planet, you know, in a millisecond, because this person drove headlong into his car,

driving the engine block of his own car into his lap, literally. These photos are horrible in this particular case. And in an instant, in a flash, it's over with. You know, it's just amazing to me how self-centered this act was. To John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, is it true her bail has been set at $1.5 million? And if she is convicted, she faces life behind bars? What can you tell me about the charges and the bail? That is correct, Nancy.

And this woman is known to have not much in the way of income. She was disabled. had been reported with a diagnosis of depression for many years before this incident. You know, it's just, it's bad enough, it's sad enough, let me say, that someone wants to commit suicide and take steps to do it. But to take down an innocent person as you're going, you know, is really taking me down a path that I was recalling. When I learned about this story, Dr. Russell, when my fiance was murdered, he was out working in a remote area on a construction site. He was almost through with his geology degree. He had been on baseball scholarship at another college

that did not offer exactly the geology degree he wanted. So when he finished there, he had a few classes he had to finish up at a different university to get that specific degree. And in the summer, to make money, he was working on a construction site for a guy that was a friend of his dad's that had a construction company. At lunchtime, he, being the guy that he was, said, hey, I'll go drive to the closest quick trip or whatever it was and get everybody soft drinks and whatever you want. And he left. He was driving back into the construction site out in the middle of nowhere and standing there was a guy that had been fired off the job i believe before keith was ever hired who sees the construction truck and opened fire and our plans for marriage and raising a family,

we were set to elope shortly after that. It just was all gone in one moment. It really does raise that question in everyone's mind, I think, that you raised a moment ago, which is, why does this happen to a guy like Keith? Why does it happen to a guy like this young husband and father involved in this case? Just last week, I heard that a wonderful woman that I've gotten to know through my television work has cancer.

And I found myself thinking, why is it always somebody wonderful? And it's something that psychology doesn't have the answer for that. That's a philosophical question. Yeah, well, you know, Joe Scott Morgan, you and I have the same religious bent. And in our world, nobody ever promised us that life would be easy and in fact our example says that life is going to be hard so i guess that's the answer right life is is not always going to be easy there are going to be steep hills we have to carry very often with a very heavy burden on our back but then there are the moments of happiness too.

So I guess that's really the answer to it, right? Yep. It rains on the just and the unjust, Nancy. And you never know where misfortune is going to fall. You really don't. And you have to stay steadfast in that and in the fact that you have some kind of greater hope. We don't have any control. Those two children, though, Joe Scott, these two babies, I mean, it's just overwhelming to me.

And I think about this guy. With a child being born, he'll never know. Two little children growing up without their dad. There is no replacement. There might be a fill-in. There's no replacement for your dad, adopted or biological. You know, it's just, I just, I hate it. The only thing I can do now is seek justice. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.