Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'INVOLUNTARY CELIBATE' MEN, angry and frustrated, murder innocent women

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

From Elliot Rodger to Scott Bierle, angry men who post online manifestos against women because they can't find a romantic or sexual partner. They are "involuntary celibates." Their anger builds until they strike out and someone dies. Today Nancy Grace looking at cases of murder by this subculture.Joining our panel of experts: Ashley Willcott - Judge and trial attorney, Anchor on Court TV Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills Cloyd Steiger - 36 years with Seattle Police Department, 22-year homicide detective, author of "Seattle's Forgotten Serial Killer: Gary Gene Grant"  Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, author of "Blood Beneath My Feet" Levi Page - Investigative reporter CrimeOnline  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. What is an incel? I-N-C-E-L. It's a man who claims he is an involuntary celibate. Let that soak in just for a moment. An involuntary celibate. And how does that relate to not only a professional masseuse's murder, a woman who has a little girl left behind without a mom, and a string of dead bodies. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Incel. Incel. In involuntary celibate. Well, you know what? I don't know what they're calling themselves or why, but I know murder when I see it. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Take a listen to global news investigative journalist Stuart Bell. A man allegedly went into a erotic massage parlor in

Toronto called the Crown Spa. He allegedly attacked a young woman with a machete and killed her and then attacked a second woman. Global News has now learned that police are alleging that this attack was related to incel ideology. There have been growing calls for this incels to be viewed and to be treated by the authorities as a domestic terrorist threat.

Those of us studying the incel movement have argued that it's terrorism for a long time. I mean, it's ideological violence targeted at civilians, you know, intended to spread a political message or kind of spread psychological fear in a targeted community. So it ticks every box in terms of terrorism. They may call it terrorism. You may call it whatever you wish. But I know this. A young man stabs a woman to death inside her massage parlor with a sword. He is linked to the quote incel movement and he's not the only one. Take a listen now to CBC News reporter Ellen Morrow. 24-year-old Ashley Noelle Arzaga was killed, a loving mother to a young daughter and now a victim of terrorism, says the RCMP. This crime was in fact one of one in which the accused was inspired by the violent extremist movement commonly known as incel.

And so today the charges against the 17-year-old male suspect in the February stabbing at a Toronto massage parlor were upgraded. The first time an alleged incel inspired killing has been formally labeled as terrorism by police. We need to name things properly in order to deal with them well and make a kind of a path towards ending this kind of violence. The path toward ending this kind of violence I assume would start with identifying and targeting so-called incels. With me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again. With me, Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer,

Court TV anchor at ashleywilcott.com. Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst, joining me from Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com. Cloyd Steiger, 36 years Seattle PD, 22 of that homicide, author of Seattle's Forgotten Killer, Gary Jean Grant on Amazon. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet, also on Amazon. Death Investigator, Joseph Scott Morgan. But right now, to Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter.

What can you tell me about the machete murder at the Crown Spa? So, Nancy, this 17-year-old was charged with murder when he went to a massage spa in Toronto, and he killed, hacked to death, 24-year-old Ashley Noel Arzaga. She had a little daughter as well that she left behind. And the motive is that he apparently was inspired by incel killers in the past. And these are people that go on online communities and they blame women for not being able to have a sexual partner. They also, they call these women Stacey's and they also blame men that get a lot of dates that are very popular with women. They call them chads. They're very angry. They

talk nonsense about them online. They blame all their problems in life on these women and men that they feel are more attractive than them. And they're very misogynistic. They feel that they're entitled to have sexual encounters with women and this teenager was apparently inspired after going on these fringe websites on the internet. Guys, in this case, a young mother to a little girl is now dead, hacked dead at her massage parlor, place of business, by a young man who is part of an incel group. Now, another thing that we know is he allegedly was partially inspired by a guy named Elliot Rogers. But as Jackie here has pointed out, in the same jurisdiction, another incel takes action. Take a listen to CBC News correspondent Diana Swain. The accused is alleged to have posted a cryptic message on Facebook

minutes before he began driving the rented van. That post begins with what may be a reference to his failed army experience. Private recruit Manassian infantry. And then the incel rebellion has already begun. All hail the Supreme Gentleman, Elliot Rodger. I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it. Rodger killed six people in a rampage in California four years ago, posting this ranting video just before. He was angry about being rebuffed by women, making him a so-called incel or involuntary celibate.

Maxime Fissette works for a center that tracks websites with extreme and violent views, including incel sites. They have this huge resentment towards society and women, mostly women, because they feel that women are rejecting them. They feel that women are rejecting them and they hold up a guy named Elliot Rogers as their leader. Take a listen now again to CBC News correspondent Diana Swain. Journalists across the country and around the world were grappling with a new term in the wake of the Toronto ban attack, one most of us had never heard. On Facebook, police say he wrote the incel rebellion has already begun. Incel is a term meaning involuntary celibate. Many of those who call

themselves incel identify with this man, some even praising him for acting on his anger over being turned down by women by going on a murderous rampage four years ago. In a video he posted before the attack, Roger spoke about women rejecting his advances. Self-described incels mostly congregate online and often fit a similar description. Mostly comprised of young men, most of them being white. The subculture even has its own terms. Chads and Stacey's referred to regular men and women who are having sex. The common themes being anger, alienation and misogyny. Straight out to Levi page, CrimeOnline.com.

Levi, first, we had the attack on the young mom, the masseuse, at her massage parlor, leaving her daughter without a mom. What can you tell me about the Toronto van attack? So this happened in Canada, and the suspect, Alex Minasan, he deliberately targeted pedestrians in the business district of Toronto, which is a very busy intersection there, and he took this van that he had rented and rammed it into this busy intersection. He killed 10 people and injured 16, some critically. And he

was also inspired by the incel movement, claiming that he was rejected by women sexually, and he was very angry about it and wanted to take out all of his angst on these people. crime stories with nancy grace guys we are talking about the so-called incel movement, involuntary celibates, men who don't, let me just say euphemistically, have girlfriends or romantic partners. And somehow they twist that in to a misogynistic and homicidal rage against all women. Clearly, in the last two cases we told you about, the van attack and the machete attack on a young masseuse, the killers didn't know they're female victims. But those victims represented something to the killer. Rejection. Many of the so-called incels hold up a guy called the virgin killer, Elliot Rodgers, as I guess their founder and mascot of the incel revolution. Well,

let me let you decide what you make of Elliot Rodger. Here he is talking on YouTube. Hi, Elliot Rodger here. Well, this is my last video. It all has to come to this. Tomorrow is the day of retribution. The day in which I will have my revenge against humanity, against all of you. For the last eight years of my life,

ever since I've hit puberty, I've been forced to endure an existence of loneliness, rejection, and unfulfilled desires, all because girls have never been attracted to me Girls gave their affection And sex And love to other men But never to me

I'm 22 years old And I'm still a virgin To Dr. Bethany Marshall Wait, Bethany I want a little bit more fact backup on Elliot Roger before we analyze him. To Levi Page, tell me about Elliot Roger and the crimes he committed. So Elliot Roger, 22 years old, and in 2014, he terrorized the Isla Vista community near Santa Barbara, California. He killed six people, wounded a dozen, and they committed suicide in 2014. He stabbed three men

in his apartment, went to a frat house, because remember, he's very angry at, you know, young, attractive guys. He couldn't get in. So he shot three women who just happened to be outside that home. And then he started driving around, similar to the Toronto attack, and started hitting people with his cars. He wounded several people, ultimately shot himself. And as you heard in that audio, he was angry about being a virgin and did several videos lamenting his unpopularity. Okay, jump in, Bethany. Well, Nancy, I think they may use their hatred of women as a rationalization for being homicidal, but to me, they're no different than any other group that goes in and does a mass shooting in a school, a university, a synagogue, a church,

a mosque, that these men, as I've often said, are what we call injustice collectors. Whatever the injustice is, they simmer, they are resentful, and they collect these injustices throughout their childhood and their adolescence. In this case, these incels say that they are angry at women for not finding them attractive or having them as sexual partners. I think this is just a rationalization for committing murder. I think these women are just symbols to them. They're putting a face to every person throughout the history of their life who they feel has diminished or slighted them. Unfortunately, women like xenophobia have become a class or a group of people who just represent all of their hatred, much like when, let's say, Ahmaud Arbery was killed.

It's the same psychology, although in that case, African-Americans became the symbol for all the perpetrators rage. I could use another term for Elliot Rogers, and we would call it a power rapist. A power rapist is somebody who wants to have power over women and often tries to have power over people in every other part of his life. But in this case, it just got enacted towards women rather than, say, co-workers or other students at a school. Well, as a matter of fact, this is Ashley. Can I just jump in? I just, any longer because they're committing crimes. None of what they're citing as a reason and, oh, they're involuntary celibacy. That is not a reason to commit crimes.

That is not a reason to be violent. So I think it's a farce. I think they're coming up with some excuse for why they want to go out there and hurt people. And I just can't stomach it. You know, Ashley, I was going to go to you regarding all of the festering and the gnashing of teeth and switching of tails online, how online they kind of build some type of esprit de corps amongst themselves and whip themselves into a frenzy. But Dr. Bethany just said she compares this to a power rape. And as a

matter of fact, Dr. Bethany, after virgin killer Elliot Rogers goes on his shooting rampage at the Alpha Pite sorority house, he, it turns out he admitted to a friend who was among 30 people that received his murderous manifesto, that he wanted to hold women down and rape them. So it's all intertwined. But let's hear it from the horse's mouth. Take a listen to Elliot Rodger, the so-called virgin killer, who murdered multiple young women outside a sorority house, talking retribution on YouTube. It's not fair.

You girls have never been attracted to me. I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it. It's an injustice, a crime, because I don't know what you don't see in me. I'm the perfect guy. And yet you throw yourselves at all these obnoxious men instead of me, the supreme gentleman. Okay. Just trying to soak that in to you, Levi Page. This guy has been brought up with a silver spoon in his mouth. Who is his dad?

Yeah, I think his dad was a doctor, wasn't he? He came from a very well-to-do family. I thought his dad was like a movie director. Yeah, his dad's a movie director. A movie director. Of really big movies. Very well-known movie director. Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket, Nancy.

He's a movie director. Forget the whole doctor thing. I think I got him except for another thing. He had an influential father. But yes, his dad Another incel. But the dad, Jackie, Google for me. His dad directed a lot of

blockbuster movies. This guy is raised in your neck of the woods, Dr. Bethany, right there in L.A., cruising up and down Rodeo Drive, as they say. Take another listen to Elliot Rodger talking his word, not mine, retribution on YouTube. On the day of retribution, I am going to enter the hottest sorority house of UCSB. And I will slaughter every single spoiled, stuck-up, blonde slut I see inside there. All those girls that I've desired so much,

they would have all rejected me and looked down upon me as an inferior man if I ever made a sexual advance towards them. While they throw themselves at these obnoxious brutes, I'll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you. You will finally see that I am, in truth, the superior one. The true alpha male. Yes. After I've annihilated every single girl in the sorority house, I'll take to the streets of Isla Vista and slay every single person I see there. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about a movement called Incel, Involuntary Celibates.

Their founder, their mascot is Elliot Rogers. His dad produced, directed, excuse me, assistant director to The Hunger Games series of movies, and so many more. This guy, Elliot Rodgers, was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Yet his hatred of women is all he will be remembered for, in addition to being a killer listen to elliot rogers in his own words hey elliot roger here i'm up in the hills in montecito right now it's truly a beautiful day but as i've always said a beautiful environment is the darkest hell if you have to experience it all alone. And sadly, I've been alone for a very long time.

I've been attending college in Santa Barbara for about two and a half years now. In those two and a half years, I've experienced nothing but loneliness and misery. And my problem is girls. There are so many beautiful girls here, but none of them give me a chance. And I don't know why. I don't know why you girls are so repulsed by me. Well, apparently women pick up on his bad vibes and won't touch him with a 10-foot pole. On the other hand, men across the country are feeding off hatred online on misogynistic websites, including a man who gets a gun and heads to a Tallahassee hot yoga studio. Listen to this.

911, what is the address of the emergency? I'm at Hot Yoga Tallahassee, Benton Place. Okay, what's the address? On Thomasville Road, somebody came into a yoga studio with a gun and shot me. We had a couple people walk in saying there might be an active shooter down at the end of the... Okay, is it down near the hot yoga by chance? Because we do have a call reference of someone who possibly shot himself. Yeah, the hot yoga, yeah.

Okay, all right. Have you guys seen anything down that way at all or heard anything? We've got one person that was bleeding that came in. I was not in the studio when there was a shooting. I am at Food Gloria's food and the person who saw the shooting came into Food Gloria's food for help. Okay, do you know how many people have been shot? We have. Yes, people have been shot. Okay, people have been shot. In Food Gloria's food. Okay. You are hearing part of a 911 call there at a hot yoga studio there at Tallahassee, where a huge university nearby the studio catering to the young women there.

Take a listen to more of that 911 call. I have like three shots. Please, sir. Can I do it? Okay. Hey, calm down, baby. We got him on the way, okay? We got him on the way. Are you in a safe place? What's the store called? Wait, what's your store called? Okay, we got him. What's your name? The shooter's still there.

I think he shot other people. But I think I saw him. Okay. Did you have a look at your shot of the shooter? Yeah. He was like six feet tall. He was wearing gray shorts. He was kind of chubby.

He had a belly. He was wearing a headband. He came inside the room when he locked the door. He started shooting at everybody. Okay. And there's people down on the floor that he shot. Okay. There's people down?

There's like three or four people. Three or four people. I mean, a lot of people. Okay. You're hearing the terror in the voice of those women. A 40-year-old gunman opens fire on a Tallahassee yoga class, killing a 21-year-old and a female doctor who happened to be there before shooting five others. Listen to this. This morning, troubling new details are emerging about the man responsible for the deadly shooting at a Tallahassee yoga studio. Police identifying the gunman is 40-year-old Scott Paul Beerly. Authorities say he killed two people on Friday and shot five others before

taking his own life. It appears Beerly posted dozens of misogynistic and racist videos on YouTube. The videos, which were not widely viewed, have been removed by YouTube because of their offensive content. According to arrest records, Beerly had a history of harassing women in Florida. According to one Tallahassee police incident report, in 2012, he was arrested for battery for grabbing girls' butts near FSU's campus. A 2016 arrest report for battery states that Beerly approached a woman at a Tallahassee area pool and slapped her butt,

grabbed it and shook it. Both charges were eventually dropped. To Crime Online's Levi Page, who is Scott Beerly? What happened in the Hot Yoga Studio? Scott Beerly is different from the other young men that we've mentioned. He's older. He's 40 years old. And he said that he in a YouTube video he made, he said it was titled The Flight of the Adolescent Male. He compared himself, his younger self, to Aaron Rodgers, and he made also a video called Rebirth of My Misogyny. So he's very angry at women, and he went to a hot yoga studio in Tallahassee and killed 61-year-old shot, 61-year-old Nancy Van Veesom and 21-year-old Laura Binkley. Straight out to death investigator and professor of forensic at Jacksonville

State University, Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, how do you go into a scene like that right there at FSU's doorsteps, a yoga studio that caters to the young women at FSU and makes sense of a crime scene where I believe seven or eight people were shot. It's an absolute hellish nightmare as an investigator because you have to disconnect your kind of human side from, you know, what you have to do as an investigator, get your mind right before you go in there. And I got to tell you, Nancy, this, the fact that it's Tallahassee, the fact that it's right off campus from FSU, you know where I'm going with this. You know, I think about Ted Bundy and how he walked into the sorority house there, crept into it and beat those girls to death in there. And that kind of harkens back to that moment in time. And I think he shares a lot of similarities. It's a very kind of disorganized event that takes place. It's brutal, it's bloody. You've got

evidence everywhere. And you have to process this thing very, very carefully because you don't really know at that moment in time when all of this is going down, you know, people at home might not understand this, when all of this is a dynamic environment. So when you show up as an investigator at the scene, you have to work each and every case as if it will be a prosecutable case. In this case, this individual took his own life, but, you know, you have to be able to handle the case and process it so that you're going to cover every jot and tittle along the way so that you don't want to miss anything because the devil is in the details. You've got brass, spent brass that's laying everywhere. You've got ammunition that has, or rounds that have passed through bodies. You've got broken

glass. You've got blood. People trying to literally scurry for their life and there's blood everywhere. You know, you'll have cross trails of blood where people will track through other people's blood many times. And it will tell a story about the horror that these people experienced at the hands of an individual like this.

Very similar to what happened with Ted Bundy. To our friend, Cloyceiger, 36 years Seattle PD, 22 of that on homicide. Cloyd, this guy barely had been banned from campus. There's a reason for that. He had been grabbing women's behinds, touching them, fondling them, until the point he was banned. But nothing was done. Yeah, you know, the problem is there's only so much you can do because all that stuff is misdemeanors.

You can trespass the guy from there. And I've been to, like Joe Scott was mentioning, I've been to I don't know how many mass shooting scenes at workplaces, in private homes, at college campuses. And it is, it's a mess. And you have sometimes dozens or hundreds of witnesses to interview. And yeah, the problem is there's not much you can do for people just doing things that are at misdemeanor level

and you know they're bad news. Or even if they're crazy, you know, the mental health laws are not efficient to prevent violence from these people who show all these warning signs. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. All the warning signs were there. More incel attacks have occurred. An attack in a spa where a young masseuse, a mother of a little girl,

was killed with a machete by an incel, van killing in the same jurisdiction by an incel of another young woman. Their leader, their posthumous mascot, Elliot Rogers, a so-called virgin killer. But now we're talking about Scott Beerly, a 40-year-old incel already banned from FSU campus. I want you to take a listen to Scott Beerly himself speaking on YouTube. Girls, if you want to know or are curious why guys are so anxious and aggressive and in a hurry just watch any any number of of television shows that have like 13 14 year olds we forget about high school students as their characters going on dates and doing any variety of things. He's, what, blaming 13- and 14-year-old girls, I guess girls, on TV that have dates for his misogyny? Did you hear that? To Dr. Bethany Marshall, why is he blaming TV characters? Well, all of these incel perpetrators have in common this

extraordinary sense of victimization, that bad things are happening to them at the hands of women and as if they have no agency in their life. You know, go get an education, go work out, go socialize yourself, go do something so that you can become appealing to the women around you. But they are not acting on their own behalf. They're just blaming other people. But wait a minute, Bethany, I have a problem with what you just said. Because I don't, I mean, look, again, I'm just a trial lawyer, but I don't think anybody should go to school, go work out, try to go to law school, try to write a book, try to this, try to impress somebody else or to try to get them to like you or date you.

You do. You're thinking about good mental health. You're thinking that. I don't even know what i'm talking what you're talking about is in a healthy population you can trust that you're loved by another person you don't have to keep doing more and more to earn their trust or love but i'm talking about stars you just said something i try to tell john david and lucy that don't if you have a friend and i guess when you get older you could say girlfriend, boyfriend, that you feel you've got to act a certain way, or you have to be cool,

or you have to look a certain way, or you have to have the cool devices, or that, no, you need to be friends with somebody that likes you just the way you are. You know what, Bethany? My husband, David, when he sees me all done up for TV, he's like, you know what? You look beautiful, but I just like you with no makeup at all. The real you. Now, see, that's love right there. I don't have to be a certain way for him to love me. I want you to listen, Bethany, particularly you to Scott Beerly talking again. Why do they take to YouTube? They do listen. I feel a compulsion now to discuss and address the origins of my misogynism and the rebirth and when it was reborn, nobody emerges out of

the womb one particular way or viewing or seeing one particular group of people one particular way, it occurs over a source of accumulated experiences. Or maybe it's one perpetual individual. I know a girl, and I was teaching, I hated her mom. She was kind of a, what did she, well, that's a whole other story. He's starting to ramble. But he's trying to explain why he's having a rebirth of misogyny. But here's the reality. Let's go to cut four. Take a listen to Blanca DeCock and parents describing what happened at the hands of an incel.

I see his face. He smiles at me and just starts shooting. Like a smirky, grimace-y smile, but it was a smile. He was just, he wanted to do this. He looked happy about it. I honestly, first of all, it didn't seem real. I thought, is this rubber bullets? And then I realized I'm bleeding. I'm in pain.

I had to call my mom. I just told her I've been shot. I don't know what happened. It's crazy. But I love you. I'm afraid I'm going to die. I love you so much. So much.

I love you so much. I'm angry that it happened and that it does still happen. We need to change this violence. How did he slip through the cracks? Shouldn't happen. She's describing an incel looking at her and smiling at her, somebody she doesn't even know, before shooting her and all the other young women standing around what is the incel

movement what is incel retribution take a listen to elliot roger the incel hero so to speak on youtube i should be the one with the girls i mean look at me i'm gorgeous but you girls don't see it i don't understand why you you're so repulsed by me why won't you give me a chance it's ridiculous. I mean, the other day, I was doing some grocery shopping at Trader Joe's. And I was, of course, all alone, as I always am. Which makes me feel so miserable. Anyway, I was doing my shopping, and I see this... This, like, this disgusting looking loser.

Well, he's a loser in my opinion. And he walks in with these two beautiful blonde girls at his side. I couldn't believe my eyes. I was so insulted by that because I should be the one with the girls. By his constant YouTube musings along with Beerly and defense or the PMS defense, the incel defense. I see it. It's shaping up right now. The problem is, first of all, listening to him talk, wah, woe is me. I'm alone.

And that person's a loser. It's almost impossible for me to stomach. Having said that, the problem is when you have a movement and it's online, you have so many other men out there who feel the same and start to say, hey, I'm a part of this movement because I feel the same way, and it's a movement. It's okay for me. I'm going to engage in violence because that's what this movement is about, and it's righteous, and it's a good thing.

And then they start committing these crimes. So I agree with you, Nancy. That's going to translate into, oh, it's a movement. And there's this whole philosophy behind it. No, no, no, no, no. These are crimes. Committing crimes is not okay, regardless of what one misguided individual is posting as a movement on YouTube.

Nancy, can I make a super quick comment about Elliot Rodgers? Look at me. I'm gorgeous. This loser walks into the Trader Joe's with these two beautiful women. And why does he have them? Why not me? We were talking earlier that you say to John David and Lucy, you know, if somebody loves you, they should love you just for who you are. You don't have to keep doing more and more. On the other hand, when John David gets married, he can't just sit on the sofa eating chips and popcorn while his wife goes and works. That would be called entitlement, right? Once you get into a relationship, you continue to have to invest and do something for it.

You're not entitled to love just because you're fantastic and what Elliot Rogers is talking about is a sick perverted entitlement to love and sex and intimacy just because he's gorgeous he doesn't feel he has to do anything to get it it should just come to him we also see grandiosity in all of these these misogynistic ramblings. And this is what we see with all personality disorders. Entitlement and grandiosity, it just has become packaged in a different homicidal form. And those are the red flags to look for.

The incel, involuntary celibate movement is afoot and is shaping up to be the next new legal defense to murder. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.