Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Is Alex Murdaugh Believable?

Episode Date: February 25, 2023

Alex Murdaugh's testimony at times seems more like a circus than a courtroom with talk of dogs, and chickens. Murdaugh first related at length how he removed a chicken from his dog's month and the timing of it at the kennel.  Then under cross-examination, the accused killer went over the activities at the kennel again, in exactly detail.  Both the defense and prosecution look to use this testimony. One side saying the information proves Alex Murdaugh could not be a killer, the other side saying the testimony shows he lied.  Murdaugh has repeatedly admitted that he stole money from clients and loved ones. He also admitted that he lied to police. So the question now is, can a jury believe that Murdaugh is now telling the truth when he says that he did not kill his wife and son.  Nancy Grace and Sheryl McCollum, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, look at the possibilities. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The evidence coming fast and furious from the witness stand in the Alex Murdoch double murder trial. In the last moments, the prosecutor, who's got him on cross-examination, asked, You know what? You're just now telling us you were really at the kennels after you've been denying it since the night of the murders? Well, the defense attorney jumped up like a jack-in-a-box. I've got to give him credit for speed. And objected, based on the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent.

Here's the kicker. Their client chose not to remain silent and has taken the stand. And, uh-oh, I'm hearing in my ear, joining me right now, crime scene expert and star of a new hit podcast, Zone 7, and founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl McCollum is with us. Cheryl, all this time he's been saying, I was not at the kennels, and now suddenly at trial that story changes. That's what I'm saying, Cheryl, And maybe that's a good example that the defense will sit back and wait and watch to see what the state puts up. And then they will craft

and tailor their defense strategy based on the evidence the jury has heard, such as once all the financial crimes came in, he now is saying, yeah, I did that. And I'm so proud I've been sober for what, what did he say, Jackie? 300, 500 days? I guess since he's been in jail. So he'll take that before he would never have admitted to that. But now since it got into evidence, the story is changing. Now, since his voice has been identified as being in those kennels with paul and maggie about two or three minutes before they're murdered he's like oh yeah i was there now that i think about it i was there then i left so we see a shifting strategy go ahead

we grew up in a profession that says if you lie about one thing, you've lied about everything. So once he's admitting, oh, yeah, I lied about that. I lied the whole time. I lied to everybody. I lied to clients. I learned, you know, I lied to law partners. I lied to my children. I lied to my wife.

I lied to my parents. I lied to my brothers. Then what's to say you're not lying right now about that you didn't do it. So the jury's going to have a lot to absorb with this to recognize he lied, which also dramatically changes that timeline. So now you've got, what, two minutes before you leave and this killer supposedly shows up? They're going to have a hard time buying that. Oh man, I took some notes on that during testimony yesterday. I mean, they're going to have to argue that he was at the kennels, then he leaves, then within the next three minutes,

the killers see him leave and erase him, commit a double murder, what's the motive and then leave before he can get back i'm laughing so hard you got to hear this i was looking at social last night some people say you're the one that always brings the dog aspect in why didn't the dogs bark that's not what made me laugh it was this one from someone named adorable deplorable she says omg i guess he's he's doing 80 mph at 9 00 pm when to see his mom when the caregiver called him at 3 58 to tell him his mom was agitated and at nine o'clock that she sound asleep so he he's flying 80 mph to get there and 80 mph back.

And then she also writes later, oh, I was wrong. He always goes 80 mph down that country road. Cheryl McCollum, can I tell you something? I think I told you this. I was heading back to the courtroom on a Sunday night, but I wanted

to cook supper and eat with the on a Sunday night but I wanted to cook supper and eat with the children that Sunday night before I left so we did that and I didn't get into the car until almost eight o'clock at night for a really long drive there were no street lights Cheryl I mean we're used to it having grown up in the country but it was pitch dark All I saw were about literally about 40 deer, and I don't even know how many possums I dodged on those back roads. There was no way that he was, I mean, 80 miles an hour? There had to be some pretty strong motivation for him to fly back at 80 mph. Exactly. But you and I are two people that our mantra is timeline, timeline, timeline.

Now from his lies, that timeline has changed. And what is so significant to me is not only the placement of where he was, but he cannot give you a reasonable explanation as a member of the bar, as an officer of the court, that he would ever lie about his whereabouts on that day, minute by minute. He would know more than anybody he was damaging that case. And that's what he's done. I mean, even if he, you know, let's just say he didn't do it. Why would you lie about where you freaking were? That's going to make it look bad. I saw him.

Oh, it looks bad. I saw him on direct examination, Cheryl, explaining away with softball questions from his trial attorney. Many of the issues that had come up during trial. with softball questions from his trial attorney, many of the issues that had come up during trial. For instance, his story now is, I was at the, wait, how did he work? I was at the kennels. I was at the kennels.

No, no. He was talking about after supper. Actually, his story still doesn't make sense because the kennel visit was just before he would have left to go to his mom's house at Almeda but he's now saying he went into Moselle the hunting lodge that he was tired that he took a, and he had the air conditioning going. And you know what that means out in the country. You can't hear anything outside the house with the AC on. And that the TV was on to try to explain to him why he didn't hear multiple shots riddling his wife and son with bullets.

That's his new thing. I had the AC on. Sorry, I didn't hear all the gunshots outside my door because I had the AC and the TV on. That's his new thing. I want you to address that, but also you said officer of the court. Cheryl, have you seen that he had a badge? He had his badge and his either dad's or grandfather's badge and would leave it open in his cup holder in his car if he got pulled over for speeding

so the sheriff, the trooper could see it. So he would get a warmer reception from police. And then the night of the Mallory Beach boat crash, the state really did a good job. They went and pulled video and photos of him going to the hospital that night with his badge, the shield hanging out of his pocket to gain access to go talk to everybody on the boat to get them to change their testimony. Well, did you even learn that Mallory Beach's mom asked if she could go down to the water's edge where they were all gathered when they were still searching for her daughter and they refused to allow her to go down but then when she you know when murdoch shows up with his badge out he and his wife were able to go right down to the water's edge and talk to all the first responders. Again, there's professional courtesy and there is just outright deliberate confusion that you're allowing to take place.

That should have never happened. He should have never been allowed to go down there. You know, since I left the district attorney's office, I have never once displayed my badge. That's impersonating an officer, if you do that. Now, I showed it to viewers yesterday because it's the same foldout that Murdoch had. But that is actually against the law to use a badge when you are no longer in law enforcement. So, but he was certainly using it. Oh, which leads me to the next thing.

Did you know Murdoch got a blue light for his personal vehicle? And he used it? Oh, yes. What, to get to Jimmy John's? I mean, why would he need a blue light? You know, to make better time getting to fake visit his mama, I reckon. And Nancy, can you imagine if you had taken that badge when we were in Aruba and you displayed it to those officers like, don't you know who I am?

Who were trying to arrest us and you were such a big help, Cheryl. Such a big help. Yeah. Like I told you. Like I told you. Like I told you there. I love you, but I don't want to go to jail with you. One of us had to stay out to make the call.

To make the bail payment. Thank you. I was taking on four guys. Did you notice they were dressed like SWAT officers, like Red Dog and their solid black, chasing down you, me, and Beth Twitty. Like, what were we going to do? We're standing here unarmed

in our sweatpants. Yeah. You and Beth together maybe weighed 125 pounds. Thank you very much for that. I stood back there and I'm like, look how huge these men are. And y'all were both so tiny. Well, compared to them, they were all like

westinghouse refrigerators hey hey i got something else to tell you i was looking on social last night and all of a sudden you know alex murdoch is suddenly for the first time using endearing monikers nicknames for i wanted to ask you about that. Yes, you have to hear this. This is from, hold on, this is from Sally Thompson on Twitter. She wrote it up the best. I cannot even take credit for that

with a straight face. Ready? This is Alex Murdoch speaking. Mags and Pawpaw have been talking to Roro, Stanky Leg, Little Jimmy, and Fathead, who heard about the pill pills from Handsome and Dibble Dabble, who told Buss Buss and Em who threatened to call the po-po on the talkie-talkie. I love that so much.

I would have to memorize it and say it to the jury with a straight face. Okay. Why is he doing this? Because he's trying to make it seem like, oh, we were all so close, and Paul was nothing but a fabulous person, and we even called him Paul Paul. And then mags. But, again, that ain't how he referred to anybody on the 911 call. That's not how we refer to them in the interrogation tapes.

And I'll tell you something. What Sally just wrote up I think is what the jurors are hearing because you know part of what they were saying the way he talks nobody's buying it sir I don't think there's going to be a family video

there's not going to be anything where he's talking to them like that um okay just because I've been reading it nonstop this morning, I'm just going to read it again. Mags and Pawpaw had been talking to Roro, Stanky Leg, Little Jimmy, and Fat Head, who heard about Peel Peels from Handsome and Dibble Dabble,

who told Buss Buss and Em, who threatened to call the Popo on the Talkie talkie so i'm not the only one that noticed that cheryl mccollum i wonder if you're not the only one Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Here's another thing. Did you read online, Sydney, at least one lady juror was crying? Is that real? I did. Ann Emerson didn't tell me that.

I'm heading to South Carolina, just so you know, in about 48 hours. I can't take it anymore. I've got to get in there and see for myself. Crying? Why would they be? Maybe when he was addressing the murders of Maggie and Paul, I hope they were crying from Maggie and Paul and not from Alex Murdoch. I don't want to. Well, let's just be real. He didn't cry when Buster was

testifying and Buster didn't cry when Daddy was testifying about Paul, Paul and Mags. So to me, there's a whole lot

of fakeness going on and I think the jury is going to be able to see right through it. Is that actually a word, fakeness? Yes.

Okay, you say yes. Okay. Like, I'm going to just take your word for it um you know what i mean it's got to be a real word then you know what it means okay so sure he's not authentic he's not authentic and they can see that do you believe the jury is going to fall for murdoch on the stand a lot of people are actually complaining about the prosecutor, about why is he going through

all these financial crimes. It's not about the financial crimes themselves. It's about the fact that he could look at somebody, say a guy dying of colon cancer, or a victim who had become a quadriplegic, and he is literally stealing millions of dollars in their settlements right the fact that he can show up at a hospital when a beautiful young girl is missing and not worry about her at all not talk about her at all not do anything at all for her family you know and and go ahead i was gonna say and actually do the opposite try to muddy the water to say oh i, I'm not sure Paul Paul was driving the boat.

I think somebody else was driving the boat. And trying to ruin that young man's life, too. You know, I noticed when Buster testified, and I'm going easy on Buster because I feel bad for him losing his mother and his brother. But did you hear toward the end of his testimony, he said, well, none of us believe that Paul was really driving that boat. He was. That's what all the witnesses say. So if he thinks Paul was not driving the boat, what does he think about who killed Maggie and Paul?

I mean, that's not that much of a stretch. Do you remember your closing argument when you had the mason jar filled with all the different stuff, the sand and the rocks and a little bit of mud and you shook it up and it was just spinning all around, just this swirl of mess and muck and trash can i just you talk to that jury yes tell it okay so i would start somewhere in the trial and put a huge jar i mean a big one like an 18 inch tall jar clear jar and in it would be a lot of sand not dirt but sand and actually I think I did have some dirt in there and water and I would sit this jar on the edge of the state's council table and I'm sure the jury would wonder what is that dirty water for? As the evidence came in and I presented the state's case, the sand and dirt would separate

from the water. You could see straight through the water, it was crystal clear. Then in closing arguments, I would take the jar and immediately attack the defense. That would be the first thing in closing statement. And I'd shake it up and say, see how they made everything so muddy and murky? Nothing is clear anymore. Like this. Then set it back down on council table.

Then start my argument going through the state's case and what each witness and what each piece of evidence proved beyond a reasonable doubt the defendant was guilty. And then at the end, by an hour, which is typically as long as a jury can keep their eyes open, the dirt and the water would have separated again so I could pick it up and say, see, it's all crystal clear again. Convict him would be my point. It was so brilliant. It was so brilliant, Nancy.

And it was like this living, active metaphor that was unfolding before your eyes that you just couldn't argue with. And that's what I think the jurors are going to be able to do in that jury room. They're going to be able to separate all this muck and sand and rocks and leaves and garbage and be able to crystal clear see right through his BS. You know, one thing I find really interesting, but it's going to have to be explained because so much evidence has come in that it takes some explaining what it all means. Like all of those times on the phones, all of the cell calls, all of the Snapchats. And then you overlay that with his car door opening and closing, when he left to go see his mom and Alameda, when he came back, when he paused and slowed down to throw out Maggie's phone, as it is exhibited in all of these times and

cell data and OnStar and so forth. That's got to be laid out very carefully. But what about this? He is saying he was so high out of his mind, he didn't really appreciate the consequences of his acts, such as lying to clients. But that night, he had the wherewithal to lie about being down at the kennel. And that's really, that was before he should have understood the timeline. Like he shouldn't have known.

It mattered that he was at the kennel. I've got to write that down. He shouldn't have known that it mattered that he was at the kennel. Should not have even known that. He shouldn't know what time the shootings occurred, but yet he knew and he lied. He knew the timing of him at the kennel was critical. Cheryl, I think that's actually very probative. It is probative, but he's also lying when he doesn't produce the guns that they know he owns, that they have pictures of him shooting. He won't produce the gun because he's not going to let them run those tests on that weapon.

So, Cheryl, what I'm trying to think. OK, I remember the case. It was a guy that I believe was serial killer, as did many others. But I got him on one murder of a Jane Doe. And she had one of her earrings yanked out. And I found it near where her body was out in the field. Of course, I thought she was murdered somewhere else. And from that one earring, I could prove seven or eight things to the jury based upon the placement and just a lot of different

factual arguments to the jury. So this one thing, let's analyze this for a moment. Him lying that night about not being at the kennel. Help me articulate this, Cheryl. See, when he comes back and finds the bodies for all he knew they could have just been shot like two minutes before while he was at his mother's so why why would he choose why would he think he needed to lie that he was at the kennel an hour before he had to know that that was he had to know that was right and he had to know that that was the time of the murders. He had to know that was right, and he had to know that was the primary crime scene. He didn't know they weren't carried there from the field or from the house. He knew that was the primary crime scene, and he wanted himself as far away from it as possible.

That's why you have the delay in calling 911. That's why you say, oh, yeah, I touched him. That's why he changed clothes. That's why he lied about his whereabouts. That's why his only alibi was a woman with dementia. Come on now. This whole thing, this whole thing, if this was in a book, you would go, oh, good Lord, this guy's guilty. You ain't got to read the rest of the book.

So can I ask you, other than which I think is the strongest evidence, him being at the kennel at the time of the murders two minutes before we know the phones went dead what do you think is the second strongest evidence the video from paul on snapchat well that's what i'm saying he's at the kennel that that's the strongest evidence because he's oh yes i thought you meant him lying about it yeah well i think the video did him lying about it i think the next thing is him not producing the guns that they know that he owns, just like O.J. and the Bruno Magnus shoes. Come on. That's huge to me. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Did you say Bruno Magli? Did you just say that? I don't know how to pronounce it. Bruno Magli. Hello. Okay. Like I'm fluent italian well let me enjoy my moment that i actually caught you in something wrong which is so rare i have to enjoy the moment while it lasts okay what's the second most important thing other than i'm not

turning over the guns i think that we know that he will invoke a weapon in a crime, hence the suicide for murder. Propensity to pull a gun. When you're in a jam, hey, pull a gun. Yeah, pull a gun. And then, you know, I think the other money tree is going to be the phone logs. The number of times he, you know, contacted the person that set up the suicide for hire, the number of times he contacted the DNR officer,

the number of times he called anybody that is only for himself. I'm still hung up on him pulling that badge all the time. Yep. I do wish you had had it in Aruba. That would have saved me some time. And maybe we wouldn't be, you know be thrown at a Holiday Inn for life. Yeah, you know what? I'm the sacrificial lamb. I would

go to jail for impersonating an officer. Thank you. I don't have a lot of faith in the Aruban jail system or justice system. What do you think about his demeanor in court? Fake. Self-serving.

Again, you know, the fake tears, the having to dramatically go into his jacket for the Kleenex, you know, the endearment terms that, again, nobody has ever heard anybody call these people on any other video that the family has put out. I think that there's several times where his brother in the back has been crying and Alec is just sitting at the defense table like it's any other day. She went on whatever he's eaten. And again, you know, he makes no emotional breakdown when his only living child is talking about losing his mama and brother. But, you know, when it suits him, he does. But if you watch him, he cries. But then they ask you one more thing, he's right back to talking.

It stops immediately. So did you hear that yesterday the defense attorney, Hart Putlian, stands up and says, oh, we have two more witnesses. Can we put them up tomorrow? In the middle of cross-exam. And the state said, what? No.

So it looks like they're going to bring on a crime scene tech and a pathologist or someone related to pathology. Now, you know that if it is a pathologist or medical examiner they did not view the bodies they only are going on pictures what do you make of that i think there'll be enough in those pictures that they'll be able to articulate exactly what happened to those two victims this is for the defense how can they play it any other way than they were maybe they're talking about who got shot first or the trajectory path of the path

of the bullets they're going to go back to how tall the shooter was they keep harping on that how tall are you cheryl mccollum i'm five six and a half where were you that night i'm five two i'm actually worried well five one and a half i'm worried i don't really have an alibi exactly so the shooter was five two did anybody believe that guy no nobody believes him because again you can shoot from a kneeling position because you're hidden you can shoot from your hip i mean this is this is easily explained it could be somebody six foot tall but here's the other thing i think they're going to be able to kind of shoot themselves in the foot when they start talking about those photographs and the amount of blood again alex said he touched both of them to see

whether or not they had a pulse or were breathing he had no blood on his hands and had changed clothes and there was blood on a steering wheel so he must have had some blood on his hands. That's right. I don't understand, Cheryl, how... Okay, let me get this straight. He says he touched them to check for pulse. Then he went and got a gun? Or did he go straight to call 911?

In any event, when did he go back to the car and touch the steering wheel? When was that supposed to have happened? Exactly. Exactly. So that's part of that timeline he's not going to be able to explain. Okay, guys, we have been hearing so much from Alex Murdoch on the stand.

He is under cross-exam. This is why, very typically, the rule is never take the stand if you're the accused. But Cheryl, I think he did a pretty good job on direct. He did a fine job yesterday, but let's talk about what that was. They had sat in a room for how many months getting him ready. He knew exactly what they were going to ask him and in what order. Today's going to be a different day.

This is when the thing will be decided, in my opinion. Guys, Alex Murdoch on trial for double murder. What a circuitous route to justice. We wait as justice unfolds. I am headed to South Carolina. Cheryl, I wish you were going to be in the minivan with me. Goodbye, everybody. Bye.

Bye. This is an iHeart Podcast.