Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Is the Long Island Serial Killer Suspect Also the Manorville Butcher?

Episode Date: July 27, 2023

Before police arrested the Long Island serial killer suspect, two other named serial killers plagued the same New York area. Now, many are asking if Rex Heuermann could also be the Eastbound Strangler or the Manorville Butcher. There are at least six more victims whose bodies were dismembered. Some of the body parts were found on Gilgo Beach.  Joining Nancy Grace today: Bernarda Villalona  – NY Criminal Defense Attorney & Former Prosecutor, Villalona Law, PLLC.: @BernardaVillalona (FaceBook, Instagram, LinkdIn, TikTok, Threads); Twitter: @VillalonaLaw Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); Twitter: @DrBethanyLive Joseph Giacalone – Former NYPD Sergeant SDS and Author: “ The Cold Case Handbook” and “The Criminal Investigative Function: A Guide for New Investigators 4th Edition;” Twitter: @JoeGiacalone Sheryl McCollum – Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of the new podcast, “Zone 7;” Twitter: @149Zone7 Josh Zeman - Filmmaker and Producer; Director of “The Killing Season” (an 8-part series on the Gilgo killer and ties to other victims in the area from 2017) Dr. Tim Gallagher – Medical Examiner State of Florida; Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine; Founder/Host: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference Jen Smith- Chief Reporter for DailyMail.com, Twitter: @jen_e_smith   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The search conducted in connection with the Long Island serial killer suspect has ceased. But now, all eyes not only on the crime lab as they begin to process a mountain of evidence taken from the basement, the home, the car, the backyard, the dirt, you name it. Now, they're processing all that, but in addition, all eyes also turning toward the eastbound strangler and the Manorville butcher. Why? Is there a connection, a quite obvious connection, between the Gilgo Beach Killer and two more serial killer episodes? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111.

Take a listen to our friends at NBC. After combing for clues for nearly two weeks, an exhaustive search of the Long Island home belonging to Gilgo murder suspect Rex Shearman is over. We have obtained a massive amount of material. Now officials are stressing patience as they analyze and catalog what they found, removing box after box of material from the premises. Investigators finding a walk-in vault equipped with an iron door in the home and saying they seized 279 weapons. Yes, we know that search has ceased and the task before the crime lab is tremendous. But what about the so-called eastbound strangler and the Manorville butcher?

Many people outside criminal justice have never even heard of them. You'll hear of them now. Take a listen to NBC. The Gilgo Task Force is now expanding its investigation to other cold cases on Long Island. A serial killer stalked the streets of Atlantic City, strangling prostitutes and leaving them in a narrow ditch behind a seedy motel. In November 2006, the bodies of these four women were discovered behind the Golden Key Motel in Egg Harbor Township, their shoes and socks missing,

and their bodies with their faces pointed eastward towards the gold and silver spires of Atlantic City across the bay. The media called the killer the eastbound strangler, and no one's ever been arrested and charged with this crime. Okay, let that sink in. You're not only hearing our friends at NBC, but also chasing news, My9.

Let's hear that one more time, specifically cut 145, Jack. A serial killer stalked the streets of Atlantic City, strangling prostitutes and leaving them in a narrow ditch behind a seedy motel. In November 2006, the bodies of these four women were discovered behind the Golden Key Motel in Egg Harbor Township, their shoes and socks missing, and their bodies with their faces pointed eastward towards the gold and silver spires of Atlantic City across the bay. The media called the killer the Eastbound Strangler, and no one's ever been arrested and charged with this crime. A straight out to the founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, forensic expert currently analyzing for a job, for living crime scenes. You can find her at coldcasecrimes.org, host of a new hit podcast, Zone 7, Cheryl McCollum. Cheryl,

you were with me so many times during the time I prosecuted violent crimes, including murders, including serial killers. The first thing you want to do when you look at similar transactions, as it is called, typically under our Constitution, past crimes do not come in on the case in chief. The jury doesn't need to be tainted by other crimes unless and until it shows course of conduct, motive, frame of mind, similarity. So the first thing you want to do to get that evidence in, of course, is to find similarities. Here we have all the victims, and this has really been underplayed. Nobody even says this word, women. They're almost all women.

Now, there was one Asian male over on Long Island, and there was one child. But overwhelmingly, all the victims are women, Many of them sex workers here in the Eastbound Killer case, and I think we're going to learn in Manorville, lumped together in their burial sites, their disposal sites. Burial is probably a euphemism. They're all disposed of in the same area. They're all killed in the same manner, which is not necessary to be a similar transaction. And many of them, if not all, are sex workers. Okay. How far away? Hold on just a second. Jen Smith joining me, chief investigative reporter, DailyMail.com. Jen, how far are the bodies in the eastbound strangler from the bodies at Gilgo? Just give me that one fact, if you know it.

If somebody else knows it, jump in. Yeah, pretty far. I mean, we're talking about Long Island on New York's east coast and then Jersey, Atlantic City, way down kind of at the tip there. So pretty far, but, you know, not impossible, right? No, no, pretty far. What is pretty far? Three hours? Are you serious? People drive two and a half hours, three hours just to get to work. And if you're looking to kill hookers, where are you going to go? Atlantic City, Vegas, away from home so your wife and your children don't know what you're right, Nancy. They are close enough for our connection to be plausible. A three-hour drive to dispose of bodies? Okay, Cheryl, we'll call them similarities. What do you make of it?

They're all sex workers. Their cell phones were taken. That's key to me because we know not only has Rex taken cell phones from the victims, he's used them. Whoa, whoa, wait, stop. did you actually just call him by his first name what are you going to have dinner with him at his place not be too respectful by calling him by his last name don't don't go while his wife and children aren't home and i'm trying not to give him too much publicity what so i'm just saying we know he took cell phones we know he used those calls the other thing not only are the dumping grounds similar, but the way he's left the victims in close proximity to Woman Nether is key. Nancy, you and I talked about from Jump Street, there were going to be bodies in other states. We believed that. The fact that he had seven cell phones, the pros right now are going to try to see the distinction of why he had seven phones.

Was each phone designated a different state? We will see. Guys, we're talking about the very real possibility that Rex Heerman, the so-called Long Island serial killer or Gilgo Beach Killer is connected to a string of murders, the moniker the East Bound Strangler and Mannerville Butcher. I want to go now to a very special guest joining us. And remember, everybody on the panel, Dr. Bethany, Bernarda Villalona, Joe Giacalone, Dr. Tim Gallagher, Jen Smith, everybody, please jump in. We have an expert joining us right now, film producer and director of The Killing Season, an eight-part series on the Gilgo Killer airing right now. You can stream it at Hulu, Amazon Prime, and AETV. Okay, let that just sink in. This guy has produced and directed an eight-part series on the Gilgo Beach Killer and ties to other victims in the area. Josh Zeman is joining us.

Okay, you know what, Josh? I just got chills on my arm thinking about, and not in a good way, in the scary way, thinking about the eastbound strangler and the Manorville butcher, as he is called, because he dismembered bodies. Josh, what do you think? Right now, it's really hard to kind of put it all together. I mean, you know, the defendant, is he even considered to be the Manorville Butcher? That's the first and big question. Yes, the Gilgo Beach Four, the Manorville Butcher, we don't quite know. And we're talking about

six other victims who were found basically around the Gilgo Beach Four. The Manorville Butcher? Yes, probably. The Eastbound Strangler? I don't know. It's really tough. I mean, we're talking about four women, all sex workers, all found in close proximity to each other, all found near water. There's a lot of similarities, but there's also a lot of differences too. Okay, hold on just a moment. Joe Giacalone is joining us, former NYPD Sergeant, Cold Case Investigator and author of The Cold Case Handbook. Wow, he really wrote the book. Cheryl McCollum, when are you going to write a book for new investigators. The guy has literally written the book and you can find him at Joseph Giacalone spelled G-I-A-C-A-L-O-N-E. Okay, completely different than the way it sounds. Joe, thank you for being with us. You know, I hear Josh Zeman and I agree. The three hours drive for the eastbound strangler doesn't bother me at all. That's no, that doesn't bother me for someone that at that point in his killing career wants to dump bodies further away from his home. Now, the Manorville butcher. Josh, weren't some of the body parts of the Manorville butcher victims found at Gilgo Beach?

I mean, yeah, that's the crazy thing. How are there two serial killers dumping bodies in the same place? You know, for a long time, we didn't really quite think the two are connected. But one of the biggest issues is the defendant's Google searches. In his Google search, it comes up Asian twink, which really is a kind of like kink that's identified with an Asian kind of effeminate man. And when we saw that Google search, suddenly, I think a lot of us were like, hmm, maybe he is the man of the book. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Guys, how likely is it, Joe Jekyll, that two serial killers are dumping bodies and body parts at the same stretch of beach? It's unlikely. And also, just from being a cop myself, I'm sure I'll tell you, we don't believe in coincidences, right? So from the very beginning, I always thought it was one individual responsible for all of these. And I'll tell you why. People say, well, these people, you know, the first four peaches

and Jessica Taylor and Valerie Mack were all caught up. And then, you know, remains were left in Manorville and Hempstead State Lake Park and Fire Island Jane Doe. But, you know, and now the other Gilgal Fort,

totally intact. And it's because my belief is that this individual picked those girls up off the street, and he was worried about somebody seeing them get in the car. And so he had to try to dismember them to try to make sure that the police couldn't identify him so nothing would lead back to him. The Gilgo Ford, all done anonymously, what he thought, with burner phones on the internet, and there was no need to dismember those bodies. That has been my working theory from the beginning, and I'm going to stick with it. At this point, I can't, there's no going back. So the issue that comes down to is, we now have all of the electronic

records, and I'm sure with this Atlantic City trip that everybody's now focusing in on, you have to pay tolls to get there. Easy pass records, cell phone towers all along the way. We have all the phones or at least seven of them. So that digital evidence, I think, will kind of determine exactly what we're looking at, if we're looking at all. OK, I want to have to process everything you just said, because that was a huge data dump right there. And every word of it was significant. Jen Smith joining me, chief investigative reporter, DailyMail.com. Jen, give me the framework, the time framework of the Gilgo Beach killings, the Gilgo Four. They started and stopped

when? I could just look at my notes that I've made. Is this correct? 2007, 2010 for Gilgo? No, not quite. The earliest that the girls went missing was around 2009, but the bodies were all discovered in 2010. But we know it's in that area, 2007, 2010. You're saying 2009. Correct. Here comes my question. Eastbound Strangler. Everybody jump in if these numbers or if these dates are wrong. Eastbound Strangler, 2006. Is that the discovery of the... Okay. All right. So hold on. I'm working. I'm very slowly working up to something. Then we have the Manorville Butcher victims, 93, 94-ish, right? That's correct.

There are also unattributed Long Island murder victims, 1997 to 2003. What I'm saying is I have basically a linear line. Speaking of redundancy, I have a linear chronology of murder starting back in 93. You got the Manorville Butcher murders in 93, starting then, where the, Eastbound Strangler. 2007 to 2010, the Gilgo victims. I mean, it just said, okay, you know what? Let me go to Bernarda Villalona, who actually worked in the Homicide Bureau with one of the current Gilgo case prosecutors. She's a high profile criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor in New York. And you can find her at ViaLonaLaw.com. Bernarda, do you remember the very first case you ever tried? You don't need to tell me about it,

but do you remember? Absolutely. Absolutely. And it was a cold case. Do you remember the last case? Do you remember the last case you tried? I remember the first case and the last case, but definitely the first case because it was a cold case. And cold cases are the most difficult cases. How much did you improve? How much did I improve from my first case of an attempted shoplifting to the last case where I had a serial killer? How much did you hone your craft? Oh, my God, 100.

I mean, I'm a different person now, a completely different person, a completely different trial attorney. I'm getting a sign waved at me by Jackie. Hureman would have been 29 in 1993. Okay, yes. How old was Bundy? Wasn't he in that? Dr. Bethany Marshall, jump in with me here I'm trying

to talk about what I see is a chronological a very clear line Dr. Bethany Marshall high profile psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills where they're all worried about which designer bag goes with which designer outfit but hey, hey, everybody's got problems. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, jump in. Well, here's what I think about the chronology. Sure, at the beginning, he's just working up the courage to begin killing people. So maybe he won't be as talented at it.

But, you see, one of the things we know about serial killers, and this is sort of in the literature and it's known in my field, is that they do kill a few victims at a time and then they go underground. And then they start, they have another killing spree and then they go underground. And the question is, why is that? The reason that they do that is that they have such prolific fantasy lives. Now, remember, serial killing is motivated by sex, right? The desire to inflict cruelty, to kill in order to achieve sexual arousal. Well, because these guys have such prolific fantasy lives, they can take a trophy or a body part and they can fantasize, they can think, they can go on the internet, they can plan their next crime. And then they pop up and then there's another cluster

of killings. And that's what I'm seeing in the chronology is there are clusters. He kills like sort of the four women that are faced east and then then he goes underground again, and then he pops up again. The idea of the three-hour drive, I'm sorry to keep bringing this back to sex, but I think that sex addicts, people are sexually compulsive. They do drive a lot. They're looking just, they masturbate a lot. They fantasize a lot. They're looking for that right next victim or person that they're going to hook up with. So think of it as a compulsion and there's a lot of time spent in the compulsion. And also we're just focusing on the people who died. He may have been having sex with a lot of

people every day, hooking up a lot, dating a lot, calling women a lot. So the deaths have come to our attention, but we have to remember that this is a man who's thinking, acting, masturbating, looking, calling all the time. There's a huge amount of energy. Hey, let me throw something in there. Of course, the guy's got seven burner phones plus his regular phone. What do you think he's doing? Again, ladies, your husband or boyfriend gets a burner phone, you get a lawyer. Okay? Bye-bye.

But I'm in the same boat with Josh Zeman. I'm ready to consider the Manorville Butcher killings. I've got to know more about the Eastbound Strangler. Although that M.O., modus operandi in Eastbound, seems more similar to me. The Manorville Butcher puts body parts of his dismembered victims at Gilgo Beach with the Gilgo four bodies and the other bodies found there. Many, many bodies. I mean, are you ready to believe that there's a coincidence, that there's a serial killer convention and several of them are leaving bodies there? Dr. Tim Gallagher is with us, medical examiner for the state of Florida. You can find him at PathCareMed.com, lecturer, University of Florida Medical School in Forensic

Medicine, founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Just in a nutshell, if that's possible, I mean, you studied, what, seven years in med school, then the undergrad, then the residency and all that. And I ask you to put it in a nutshell. Dr. Gallagher, how hard is it, truly difficult, to dismember a body? Well, I think that's something important to talk about here, Nancy. The way the body has been dismembered can also lead to, is it one killer or is it two if the body was surgically dismembered for instance if the knife if the knife was used and it was between the joints the person would

have to know about anatomy and where exactly to cut it so they would leave virtually no marks on any of the bones with the knife if the the person had used, say, an electrical saw, you know, to cut through the bones, just say as a butcher would, you know, that can, and if all the bodies who were dismembered were dismembered in the same way, that could lead to one or two killers. So it's important to look at the ends of the bones when they are found to see if the bones were surgically dissected from each other. For instance, the knife was gone through the joints or if a electrical saw type device was used, which left teeth marks and damage to the bones while the person was cutting through. If the damage to the bones were the same in each of the body parts that were found, then we could attribute that to the same person. But as far as dismembering a person, it takes a lot of energy. It's a lot, a lot of energy. It's not for the meek. It's not for for somebody who is weak. And the actual pattern to look for

will help you decide whether it's one or two killers. You know, online, everyone is, not everyone, a lot of people are saying, oh, it's just like Dexter. It's not just like Dexter. Number one, that's pretend. Number one. Number two, Dexter was killing bad guys. This guy is killing, stalking, torturing and killing women and children. Because isn't there a child, wasn't there a child found, Jen Smith,'t the eastbound strangler, Nancy. It was one of the Manorville victims.

There was a toddler found with the mother. Peaches, correct. Yeah. So the mother is unidentified. She's a Jane Doe. And investigators obviously were so struck by the tragedy of this, they didn't want to refer to a toddler girl as a Jane Doe. So they came up with the name Peaches for her. And I mean, yeah, that would have been the Manorville Butcher. Thank you. Guys, speaking of the Manorville Butcher,

take a listen to our cut 139 ABC 7. Today, we are announcing that Jane Doe number six has been positively identified as Valerie Mack. It has been 20 years since the family of Valerie Mack has seen her smile or heard her laugh. The 24-year-old was last seen in the spring of 2000, about 100 miles away from Philly. In November of that year, the partial remains of a woman were found in Manorville. More than 10 years later, more remains were discovered in Gilgo Beach State Park in April of 2011. Gilgo, Gilgo, Gilgo. We keep hearing Gilgo, dead bodies, body parts. And there's another similarity. Take a listen to our friends at Pixie 11 in our Cut 142. Jessica Taylor and Valerie Mack, another dismembered victim found in

Manorville, were tied to the Gilgo Beach serial killer or killers. Two law enforcement sources told me they were tied up in a very cruel way. One saying their leg area was bound in a ball. You'd have to be a hunter to do something like that. The second source said the knees were brought into their chest area. Josh Zeman joining us, director of The Killing Season, an eight-part series on the Gilgo killer and ties to other victims in the area. Weren't the Gilgo victims bound as well? Yeah. In fact, one was bound with a belt. So the bounding is similar for sure.

That's another big issue. I mean, how are body parts being left in Manorville, the same body parts being left in Gilgo Beach? It's just too coincidental. How far is Manorville from Gilgo Beach? 50 miles, Joe. How far is it? Yeah, I was going to say about anywhere from 40 to 45 miles. And listen, 45 miles, an hour, an hour and a half, maybe in the car, but late at night,

cut that down to 50 minutes, one hour. If you had to get rid of a dead body, how far would you drive in the middle of the night to do that? I would definitely drive at least an hour or two hours or three hours to get rid of a dead body. I'm curious about... Well, it would be on his way home. Explain. It would be on his way home. So if he was, whoever's responsible, let's just say it's the suspect they have now. On the way going to Marable, you would just hop down onto the Sagittarius, go all the way down to the Southern State, right over the Robert Moses, right into Gilgo, Gilgo, right into the Wastaw Parkway, right to Mesopico. I mean, it's just, you know, it's a direct route. I mean, and Josh would say, too, for us who grew up on Long Island, I mean, you just don't find Gilgal Beach.

It's not like you can stumble upon it. You have to know it's there. So it's just, to me, it's just interesting because when you look at a map and you look at where Manorville is and Hampstead Lake State Park and everything else in Massapequa now, it all comes into a circle. Okay, that is incredibly probative or proves something to me. Are you telling me, is this Joe Jacqueline speaking? Yes. Joe, are you telling me that Heuermann's, and again, he has not been charged in Manorville or Eastbound. We're exploring the similarities. Are you telling me, Jacqueline, that Heuermann's drive home goes through Gilgo

and Manorville? No, what I'm saying is that if you look at the map, you look at where he lives and look at where the bodies are recovered and the parts of the bodies are covered, it's basically like an oval or a circle. So you can connect all the dots and put them all within that oval and be able to try to

pinpoint it. And that's what we've seen investigators do already with even the cell phone records, where they pinpointed him down at the Massapequa or into Manhattan. And I think they're going to try to do the same thing with these cases, just that do they have the records from way back when? I mean, we know they don't have them from the 96 cases and the 97 cases because it was still, I don't think they got anything back then because I don't think much of this existed.

So the issue that comes down to is you can make a point. Okay. Coming from someone with no accent at all, me, could you slow down your New Yorkese and tell me what you identify on the map as a would-be route by Heuermann? Or let's just pretend the killer. Go ahead. It depends on where he's picking these girls up, but if you look at Manorville, you can make a direct line right to Gilgo Beach, right from Manorville. If you come from Massapequa, you can make a direct route to Gilgo, no problem. You make a direct route to Hempstead Lake State Park, be home within a half an hour, back and forth.

And, of course, anybody who's ever ridden the Southern State Parkway knows that timing is everything. So if you're doing this in the middle of the night, you're pretty good. If you're trying to do this at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, it'll take you a long time to do so. But it's plausible. And he mentioned something really interesting, Josh Zeman, filmmaker, producer, director of The Killing Season, an eight-part series on Gilgo. Josh, I'm thinking about what he's saying regarding the route. And what he said that you'd have to know the area to even find Gilgo Beach. Everybody pause and think of a place in your hometown, a place not many people would know about that a local, only somebody that lived in that area

would know. What do you make of that, Josh? Someone that knows Manorville, that knows Gilgo, that knows the state park. Nancy, I think we can get even more specific than that. We know he's a hunter. We know he had, what, 295 guns and probably other hunting implements. We know that he buried the GB4 in camouflage. So we know he's a hunter. We know he's a duck hunter.

He knows Gilgo because he went hunting there. And some of the other victims who were found in Manorville were found by hunters. So I believe he knows both areas from his hunting. The question is, what is he hunting? Okay. You just gave me a lot of critical information. Would you say that one more time, please? Well, the question is... The hunting aspect. Actually, I've got hunters circled on my notes. It says one investigator saying their leg area... This is a matter of victims. Their leg area was bound in a ball. You'd have to be a hunter to do something like that. That was their quote. Okay. Would you

tell me that again, please? Just that the reason, one of the reasons why he knows these areas outside of being a Long Islander is because he's a hunter. We know he's a hunter. We know he's a duck hunter. We know he had a huge collection of weapons, hunting implements. We know that the Gilgo Beach four were wrapped in burlap camo. So Gilgo Beach, duck hunters use it. And even a hunter found one of the victims in Manorville. So I think hunting kind of ties this all together. You know, are we hunting individuals or are we hunting animals?

There's just a lot of connections to the idea of being a hunter. You know, Josh Zeman, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying about the connection between Manorville, the Manorville butcher, and the Gilgo serial killer. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Modus operandi, Cheryl McCollum, Cold Case Investigative Research Institute founder. investigative research institute founder changes like bernarda who's being unusually quiet today via lona you hone you hone okay here's a simple comparison in my first jury trial i thought that's when women thought they had to dress like men i had on the shirt up to my chin, the long sleeves, the long sleeve jacket, the skirt, the weirdly ivory hose, the flats, my hair up on my head, and one of those fake ties that women used to wear, like a rosette or something stuck in my throat. That was the week the air condition went out in the Fulton County Courthouse, and I was on the fifth floor.

By the time that trial was over, my hair was on one side of my head, had all black eyeliner coming down my face. The jacket was gone. The shirt was untucked. I don't know what happened to that rosette. Long story short, simply put, I adapted. I changed. The way I gave a closing, the way I did directs, cross exams,

everything changes. He could have honed his craft. Is that, Bernardo, go ahead, Bernardo. Yes, Nancy, so you have to think, we don't know when Rex Heumann started his little serial killing. We don't know where he started. Where was his first kill? Who was his first kill? Where did it happen? When did it happen? So what we encountered is just a Gilgo Beach murders and that being the four women, but he's only charged for three. And these are the questions and the clues that investigators are trying to find. And those questions that we've been talking about all day are the same things that investigators are like, wait wait could it have started in this area could have started new jersey could have started south carolina could have started in nevada where's

the first kill because there's no way that you start right with gilgo there's something more to it you started simple with a simpler murder than just this because this seems to have been well planned when you're talking about getting these bodies to Gilgo Beach. I go back to it. And Nancy, if I could jump in about the hunting. Sure, jump in. You know, people who have compulsions tend to have habits that relate to the compulsion. So let's say he has a compulsion to kill, compulsion to inflict cruelty. So the hunting is related to the compulsion, just like somebody who's an alcoholic may begin to make craft beers, right? Because that is related to the compulsion. So he probably had a lot of activities in his life. You know, the idea of dismembering the bodies, whether that was for pleasure,

sexual pleasure, or also because he was trying to cover his tracks. It was probably a little bit of both. You know, did he do woodwork? I hate to say, I mean, I hate to be so crass about it, but I'm sure we're going to learn that he has a lot of habits that relate to his compulsions. Hey, Nancy, can I get back to Emma for a second? Yes, Cheryl, I just wanted to point out the classic example, Ted Bundy. He started picking up women. Do not take my answer.

Oh, I'm so happy. Ted Bundy started off. There's another aspect to Bundy. I bet this was not what you were going to say. He started picking up female university students, but then he shifted and no longer was picking up university students. In the end, he went back to murdering them in their place. But at the beginning, he tried to pick them up. But I bet you've got a different change in M.O. I do. He dismembered some of his victims. He strangled some with pantyhose. And then he picked up a log and performed blunt force trauma. The MO can change. He can fool you

because his fantasies will also change. Ted Bundy had adults primarily, and then all of a sudden he has a 12-year-old child. It does change. So for example, when we're looking at these different pockets of victims that were taken from a similar area, look at the Asian male. The Asian male was found wearing women's clothing. My question is, whose clothes were they? Because all the other victims were found nude. He wasn't. So I want to know when he Googled the Asian tink, was that before or after the murder? That timeline is going to be crucial in telling you his mindset with that murder. Speaking of M.O., Motorist Operandai Method of Operation, take a listen to our cut one, two, six, and one, two, seven from the killing season. Listen.

There were in all 10 bodies that were found along Ocean Parkwayway some were dismembered and some were found intact the gilgo beach four which is the three women plus one that rex was has been arrested for they were all found intact so the police kind of because of that mo they basically grouped them together and they called them uh the gilgo beach four the question becomes, what about these other six victims? Dismemberment, it's different, MO. And this is hard to talk about, but is it the same killer or is it different? You know, some experts would say that it's completely different. Other people would say, no, this guy was just dismembering body parts in the beginning and then he got lazy because he didn't get caught and then was leaving bodies whole. So that's where this whole confusion comes from.

Okay, you're hearing our new friend Josh Zeman speaking. Explain to me, Josh, and don't feel fenced in or limited by my question. Explain to me when you said he just got lazy. I mean, that's a question that has been brought up. And look, I'm not an expert. We have a lot of experts on this panel who know far more than I do. I'm just a documentarian. But I do wonder. Stop right there, Zeman. You've done an eight-part series on the Gilgo Beach Killer and ties to other victims. So I think you are. Go ahead. Okay. So the question just becomes, and I throw this out to the rest of the panel, do we have examples of serial killers basically getting lazy? I mean, they take all these early

forensic countermeasures. Yes. Could the dismemberment be part of some type of pleasure as well? Is it also a forensic countermeasure? And then, you know, he doesn't get caught for so long. We're talking about 1993 when the first, sorry, 1996, when the first victim, Fire Island Jane Doe, disappeared, going all the way to when the Gilgo Beach Four disappeared about 10, 12 years later. So could he get lazy? That's my question. Could he change his MO because, hey, he just wasn't caught? Nancy, I'd like to answer that. Could I stop you? Go ahead. He didn't get lazy. He got comfortable. There's a difference. We see it in law enforcement. Sometimes you get very comfortable in your zone among your people,

and maybe you're not on a swivel looking for problems and being situationally aware. This man full-time researched, Googled, read about, downloaded torture porn. He drove extensively looking for places, picking dumping grounds. He contacted sex workers all the time. This was something he did full time. He was absolutely not lazy. That's a really interesting point, as I may. I was just going to you, Chief Investigative Reporter, DailyMail.com. I was going to ask you a different question.

Let's hear what you were going to say. That's a really important, crucial point. The reason that they hauled Rex Herriman in wasn't because they felt as if their investigation was complete. It was because he was continuing to contact sex workers using burner phones and making arrangements to meet with more women. So investigators were frankly terrified that he might strike again. They were watching him for a year before they brought him in, and he was continuing. Okay, hold on, Jen Smith. I read every single thing you write about this on DailyMail.com and far, far beyond.

I want you to explain what you just said about how he was continuing to contact sex workers up to the time of his arrest, but I saw the photo that you first published of Rex Heuermann in a cell phone store buying additional minutes. Oh, no, yes, yes. Buying additional minutes, at least I think I saw it on Daily Mail. You did, yeah. Buying additional minutes for his burner phone. If David Lynch popped up on video at a cell phone store buying more minutes for his burner phone, oh, yeah, I'm changing the locks then, that minute. And what else is he going to do on a burner phone? That's his MO. But now you are adding to that and saying not only was he buying those additional minutes,

he's caught dead in the water on that, but we know for a fact he was contacting sex workers up until the time of his arrest. And that woman, I believe she said July 4, July 7, he approached her in a very aggressive manner out at a public park. She got so afraid that she called her sister and said, I need to come home right now. Right. It was all happening up until the moment of his arrest. Absolutely. You know, he was brazen.

He did not feel like he had anything to worry about. And he was continuing to behave in a way that he had been for decades. I mean, they really were worried about him striking again. That's why they arrested him. And, you know, where they arrested him, outside his office in Manhattan, they did that away from the home

where he kept 279 or 295 firearms. They were worried about a standoff, Nancy. That's why they hauled him in. This guy was dangerous. Yeah, I want to just zero in on something that we're all talking about. You know, Cheryl McCollum, you say tomato. Let's just say I say tomato. You say tomato.

But Zeman, Josh Zeman, says he got lazy. You say he got comfortable. Joe Giacalone and Bernarda Villalona with me. Joe, isn't that always the way? I mean, the first time I backed out of our garage, I nearly took off the side mirror. Well, guess what? I don't even slow down now. You become comfortable.

Some people might call it lazy. But isn't that the way it always happens? Well, I don't know if it always happens. Go ahead, Jack. Go on. Yeah, I don't know if it's always that way, but I always try to find, because I've actually investigated these kinds of cases, and you try to find where that first or second one happened, because that's the time when this individual made the most mistakes. Yes. And that's where you as an investigator try to exploit that.

So right. So right. You might get comfortable comfortable but you also get arrogant criminals never think they're going to get caught i mean that's just the thing i mean when even with white collar crimes we see that increasingly they fail that's it right there bernardo jump in that's it right there is that they never think they're going to get caught and And you have to think that Rex Heuermann, remember, he had over a 10-year head start on us because he did not become a suspect until just last year, 2022. So, of course, he thought he wasn't going to get caught. That's why he continued acting the way that he was acting and why the prosecution and law enforcement had to move in to stop him because they saw that he was about to kill again. Where does it stand right now, Jen Smith, the investigation, the status of Rex Heuermann,

the alleged Long Island serial killer? Well, they've completed their search of his house. Now, this took a long time, well over a couple of weeks now. They've seized a lot of evidence. We don't know exactly yet, but we're surely going to find out. Rex remains in custody, no bail, obviously. seized a lot of evidence we don't know exactly yet but we're surely going to find out rex remains in custody no bail obviously he is due back in court in early august nancy so far he has pleaded not guilty via his attorneys but that was very early on that was before he knew exactly what

the authorities have against him wait a minute when. When will he be in court in August? Where or when? August 1st. When? When? August 1st. August 1st. And that is for what? An arraignment?

Yes. Doesn't specifically say. No, that's for a conference. It's for a conference because he's already been arraigned and he's been indicted. So now it's going to be a series of motions and scheduling motions and scheduling to see even possibly whether we can get a trial date. We wait as justice unfolds. But for you out there that know or think you know anything about the Long Island serial killings, the Manival butcher killings, or the eastbound strangler killings, please dial 800-220-TIPS, 800-220-TIPS.

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