Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Is there a 2nd Natalee Holloway grave? Were missing woman's remains divided?

Episode Date: September 5, 2017

As Natalee Hollway's family waits for tests to confirm if bones found buried in Aruba are her remains, the man who led them to the grave hints there is a 2nd location where other body parts are hidden. Gabriel Madrigal opened up to Nancy Grace in this episode with details not included in the Oxygen series "The Disappearance of Natalee Holloway." He stopped short of disclosing secrets beyond a promise of "twists and turns" in the remaining episodes of the series, but he did suggest he has knowledge of a 2nd burial location. Cold Case Research Institute director Sheryl McCollum, investigative reporter Art Harris and psychologist Pat Saunders also joined Nancy on this episode. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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So invest your time and money in growing your business. Let LegalZoom help with the legal stuff. For special savings, be sure to enter promo code NANCY, N-A-N-C-Y, in the referral box at checkout for special savings only at LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom.com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. 2005 on the small island of Aruba, Natalie Holloway was with friends at a local bar

where she was last seen getting a ride with Euron Vandersloat. Natalie's disappearance remains a mystery. Her dad says that he in a private eye found human remains in Aruba. We took those remains and had those remains tested and they just returned last week that they're human remains. Will there be able to be some kind of test, Dave, that will answer once and for all whether this is Natalie's? We're in the process of doing a DNA test. Dave Holloway says that a friend of a man who was once suspected in her disappearance tipped him off. I know that there's a possibility that this could be someone else, and I'm just trying to wait and see.

A beautiful young girl goes on her high school senior trip. Her parents take her to say goodbye. It's heavily chaperoned. All is well until it's time for her to say goodbye. It's heavily chaperoned. All is well until it's time for her to come home. And she never shows up at the plane. The chaperones don't know what happened. Her friends don't know what happened. And the parents are devastated to this day. they still don't know what happened to Natalie Holloway. And with me today, in addition to an all-star lineup, is the man at the center of the search for Natalie Holloway, some calling him the hero, Gabriel, who has managed to help crack this case wide open. He is with us now.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. First of all, before I go to Gabriel, I'm going to start with Art Harris, Emmy Award winning reporter. Art, what is the latest? I'm now understanding that someone in the case claims Natalie's bones have been mixed with a dog's bones and cremated for $200.

Have you heard that? One report, Nancy, has his friend taking the remains to a local crematory and paying the officials there $200 to burn the bones with the remains of a dog. Now, how would that happen? Well, he had cash, he says, and they put it through the oven and came back with a mixture of ashes, supposedly from Natalie and the dog. Why didn't they stop him? The guy said, this is, you know, John, who's supposedly your aunt's lover and friend. Well, I don't, I love that dog. I don't want anyone to see him go in except me. So he gets the ashes. And then the story is he's supposed to bury them for your aunt. And what happens from there, I guess Gabriel can tell us more. Well, here's the gist of it. A missing

Alabama girl, Natalie Holloway, skeletal remains, some believe, were mixed with those of a dead dog in an effort to disguise that it was Natalie, then taken to a crematory where a man paid 200 bucks to cremate, to burn them so the ashes could be scattered. Is it true? How did we get to this point? Natalie's father has traveled all over the world, including as far as Nicaragua, to help find his daughter. And joining me right now, the man at the center of the search for Natalie, many hailing him as a hero, Gabriel. Now, Gabriel, back on August 30, we had an episode on Natalie Holloway. And in that episode, I mistakenly ID'd a person named Gabriel as the guy I had previously interviewed. And I did the interview when Jorn Vandersloot, the judge's son, had been arrested and charged in the murder of a

second girl, Stephanie Tassiano-Flores. Now, I made the mistake about thinking Gabriel was that person I interviewed before, but he is not that person. And I really apologize. Nobody's too big to say they were wrong. I apologize for that confusion. And with me here today is the real Gabriel, not the Gabriel I confused, but the real Gabriel, who has really led Natalie's father to this point. And Gabriel, I mean, I just want to say that if you had not done this, we wouldn't have even gotten this far. And whether it turns out to be her remains or not, or some other woman's remains,

what's so stunning to me is that Aruban authorities kept saying, it's not a person, it's not a person, it's an animal. Well, our expert here in the U.S. says it is a young woman of Eastern European descent. So it makes me wonder, Gabriel, what else the Aruban authorities are hiding. But that's putting the cart before the horse. Start at the beginning, Gabriel. Please tell me your story. I met John Lidwick in 2013. And I met him through a friend. I went ahead and gave him the chance. And one day he was drunk. He goes, you know who Natalie Holloway is? I go, yeah, I recall poor girl. He goes, well, I know more than anybody knows in their entire life.

I go, what do you mean? He goes, I was there. I go, wait, what? He goes, I met Vanaslu in 2010. That day, he tells me, you know what, Gabriel, I think that you're gruesome. So he starts showing me pictures and all this and that of him and Vanaslu, and

then that day something in me said i can look the other way or i go and try to solve this so something came in me and and said i'm gonna do it might not be easy but i'm gonna do it so i befriend john and act like his best friend i mean i took him to every single place because I played poker. I took him here. I took him there. I spent thousands of dollars to, you know, make him my best friend so he could open up to me.

So by 2015, he went ahead and opened up. I mean, he completely opened up. He goes, you're my best friend. And in 2015, I tried to call Beth Holloway. I mean, I tried for three, four months. I tried everything. I never got an answer. So then I went ahead and called Dave Holloway, and I got an answer.

And I said, hi, Dave. And he goes, yes. I said, look, I know a lot of people have cry wolf butts, but I have some videos that you should look at. I'm not asking for money. I just want you to look. I'm a father to a daughter, i i know uh if that happened to me well you know your pain so he contacted jay ward and tj ward calls me he comes to venice florida

and meets me and tj was blown away he goes oh my god wow i mean tj didn't know nothing i go tj why'd you miss this back in 2010 he made made jokes. The jawbone is connected to the, I'm like, come on, you missed a lot of information here. So he goes, well, you know, I've been working on this case, this and this and that, so I didn't say nothing.

Well, let me ask a question, Gabriel. When you say they were blown away, what is it that you knew that blew them away? That John knew exactly where he was buried. John knew exactly how she actually died. Well, did he tell you how she actually died? He told me all this in confession on video. I mean, I reported without him knowing.

Well, what did he say? What happened? It's part of the documentary, and I can't say it. Okay, I understand. Okay, go ahead. Then teacher Ward comes to me and says, Dave Holloway has put a lot of money into this, and we got a chance to do a documentary.

Would you like to join us? And I said, sure, you know, why not? You know, I'll help out. We did a boat trip, and I guess the laws didn't qualify there. So TJ said that he was going to pay me, which he never paid me for all my expenses there. So TJ said that he was going to pay me, which he never paid me for, for my, um, all my expenses there. So I said, it's okay. You know, I don't care. So, uh, then we went to New Orleans and we did the asking operation and TJ at the time was pushing because he wanted information right away. And I said, listen, he's a maniac. You cannot push this guy. He will close up. He will not say a word.

You have to just be calm, and he will give you what you want, but you have to relax and be calm. So we didn't really get nowhere. I mean, he told us that there, that it wasn't at the forest anymore. It was somewhere else at his aunt's house. You know, I was like, why did you lie to me?

So, you know. Wait a minute. The sting goes down in New Orleans, and it's recorded in a hotel room with hidden cameras and audio with you talking with the guy who was shown discussing his friendship with Vandersloot, right? Correct. And so that goes down in New Orleans. Correct. Do you think the guy's telling the truth?

He's a person that will say 40% truth, 60% lies. But one clue he gave me, he goes, to every lie there's a truth. You just got to figure it out. From that day on, I will put everything in my wall and what makes sense and what didn't. That's how I was able to find the bones. There's a lot of twists and turns, but I don't want to talk bad about TJ, but if TJ would have never put his two cents into a lot of this, he would have solved it earlier. It was very difficult, very aggravating. put his two cents into a lot of this, he would have solved it earlier. It was very difficult,

very aggravating. What do you make, Gabriel, of this claim that Natalie's remains were mixed with a dog's remains to throw off authorities? I cannot say anything because it's part of the documentary. The only thing I can tell you guys is that there's a lot of

twists and turns. One day it's going to say this, the other day it's going to say something else. The only thing I can tell you guys is put on your seatbelt. Get on your hard hat because it's going to be a wild rollercoaster when you guys see what I went through and everybody else went through to solve this. Now, the second time we went to Aruba, everybody gave up. Everybody. Because, again, DJ went in, and he got mad, and he mended, and John got pissed off and didn't do anything. Too intentional.

I came back in April without nobody knowing. And I told John, listen, John, something happened, which is part of the documentary, I cannot say. Something happened to John where he just came out and said, okay, let's go. Let's go to the same area where we were at. And I'm going to show you where it's at. When John came clean, I said, look, John, listen, I'm broke now because of you, but I'm going to borrow this money so we could go down there. But if you're lying to me, I'm going to break every single bone in your body, and I'm going to leave you down there.

So as soon as we landed, I got his passport. As soon as we landed. We went to the hotel. I strip searched him. I mean, he took all his clothes, because I wanted to make sure he had nothing in his pocket, nothing. And we went straight there. Okay, hold on just one moment.

Guys with me at the center of this controversy regarding the missing Alabama teen, Natalie Holloway, is the man that has led her father to what many believe are the remains of Natalie Holloway. And he's right. It's more twisted than we ever imagined with allegations now that her remains have been mixed with the remains of a dog and buried to throw off authorities with me also in addition to art patricia cheryl mccollum also with me the duke alan duke alan what do can you roll what we learned on the oxygen series the other night, please? Listen. With day one with a sting operation behind us, it's time to tell Dave where we are. Last night, John changed his story. Originally, he told Gabriel that he recovered Natalie's remains from the National Forest.

And now he claims it's at a different location near his aunt's rental property. He's already admitted that he was involved in moving Natalie's remains. Okay. And I'm going to let you see right from the horse's mouth. Okay. I can take you to where I got the remains,

but it's not really in the National Park. It's up at the top of a mountain, like, not a mountain, a really big hill there that's almost like a mountain. Like houses are going all the way up, up this steep hill. The road just eventually dead ends and it's like a cul-de-sac where you can turn around. But if you walk past the cul-de-sac, there's like a little path that takes you back in

the desert where there's like cactuses and brush trees and like that. And the second clearing of mesquite trees to duck under, and then you're gonna see a freaking opening. And then you're gonna see a bunch of cactuses grouped together. That's where the was. It was, it's actually only like probably 10 minute walk from my aunt's house.

So it was never in the national forest? It was never in a national forest. It's only like 10 minutes from my aunt's house walking. John, I think, is trying to throw Gabriel off because he's changed the story. In addition to the man who many are hailing as a hero, Gabriel, who has led Natalie's father this far. Art Harris with me, Emmy award-winning reporter. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute.

Dr. Patricia Saunders, a well-known psychologist joining us out of New York. And of course, Alan Duke. To you, Cheryl McCollum, weigh in on this latest twist. I mean, to think that someone could be so diabolical not only to kill a young girl like this, but then to mix her remains with a dog's to escape detection. I mean, what do you make of the crime scene? Nancy, I am fascinated by this new development but my biggest question right now is who at the crematory does not notice 27 ribs i mean you've got two skulls you've got

two pelvises something would be very odd about that being dropped off there to be cremated and to you dr patricia saunders i'm listening to ch to Cheryl McCollum speak, but the mindset of someone that can not only kill a young girl, but then mix her remains with a dog's? The mindset is that of what I see as a typical psychopath, a person who is incapable of empathy and therefore has no conscience. He could have mixed it with a cow or so if he was concerned. He was just trying to hide his crimes and act, thinking he's smarter than everybody else. He mixes it in with dog bones. You know, Art Harris on this, tell me how

this latest development occurred. First, Art, art listen to this did he ever tell you what actually like what actually happened at night that did like you know to see natalie dying there i mean you told me that freaking bad things that can happen to good people sometimes you just gotta deal with it. Mm-hmm. You don't think there was, it was wrong with him? I didn't try to, try to cause the situation. I just had to deal with it. And it was like, I had help.

Who had help? Like, who helped him? His dad. You know, I've always had a suspicion that Paulus Mandersloot played a role in this. Paulus Vandersloot made a statement, no body, no case, which means that if they can't find a body, then no one can be arrested for the murder of Natalie. How much involvement does he have in this case to make that type of statement, nobody, no case. So it made me think that he's very, very confident that Natalie would not ever be recovered.

So, Art, what do you make of it? The thing I'm understanding is that his best friend, this John, who Gabriel so heroically led to confess or confide, goes to this crematory, and he has a dog carcass and he has Natalie's remains that he has dug up. And he places the carcass over the remains and insists on being there when it goes into the oven, as it were. So he watches this, whether it's true or not, that's what he told Gabriel. And then he takes this bag of ashes. And what I'm unclear about, why didn't they take the ashes if they wanted to get rid of them and dump them at sea? Why would they go to the trouble of reburying them somewhere? That is

what my question would be. What do you make of that, Cheryll nancy if the bones were cremated what bones are they examining now yeah good question back out to gabriel who's at the center of all this gabriel what bones do you believe that they are examining because it's been made very clear a u.s expert is looking at bones brought in from aruba so So if something was cremated, what is there to examine? Like I said, Nancy, he said many stories as we were doing the investigation. And I cannot say because there's a twist to all this. It could be true. It could be a lie.

But there's a twist to all this. It could be true. It could be a lie, but there's a twist to everything. So I can't really, I have to keep you guys in suspense. Question to you, Gabriel, from what you learned through John, what have you learned about who is Jorn Vandersloot? What kind of guy is he? He's a sociopath. He's a pathological liar. He basically thinks about himself. And if he could be on TV and be in the spotlight, that's what he wants. What I have learned from John. How do you think he is holding up now? Is he still in connection, in contact with John?

Because he's in Peru now. VanderSloot's in Peru. As far as I know, no. John has not. He said the last time that John wrote him a letter was back in 2012 and has not written to him since then because I guess they were watching their letters.

Do you believe that Jorn Vandersloot's father, Paulus Vandersloot, the judge who is now dead, was covering up for his son? Oh, definitely. have of material that how it came to be where Natalie was placed to, her place to rest for the very first time. Where was she at? And they don't even have the material. I try to tell them, but they don't listen to me. Well, where, where was it? I cannot say it right now.

Due to my lawyer, I can't, I can't disclose that right now. I understand. I understand. Put it this way. I'm just going to give you a little hint. Paula's had a best friend in Holland that had a property. Paula's knew very well that property, very, very well. And that's all I can tell you for now. What was it like to be working undercover trying to crack this case, Gabriel? Honestly, Nancy, I'm not a cop.

I'm not an investigator in none of this. God gave me the will, and it was very, very frustrating. It's like handling a 5-year-old child with tantrums day by day. It was very difficult. Very, very difficult. Nobody has, I mean, if you were locked in with him, you would probably strangle him because there's

no way. And I had to take all that crap. I had to grow thick skin in order to get the information I needed to solve this. How long did it take you, Gabriel? Approximately almost five years. Because I started in slow to get in him. Once I was in and at the end, I pushed hard and I got what I wanted.

I was almost there, almost there when everybody gave up but me. And I said, no, no, I'm not going to let this go. I know she's there and I know and something remarkable happened. And the second week of April and I went back when everybody gave up. I went back and it was exactly the spot where I kind of had a general idea, and everybody was blown away. The one that was blown away the most, which he had his doubts, was Dave Holloway. I remember calling him, and I said, Dave, I found her. He goes, you've got to be kidding me. So he calls.

He tells me, call Chief Richardson. So I did. Gives me the number. I called him, and I said, I want to meet you. I found remains. So he comes and meets me. But when I met him, he goes, you want to know something? I go, what?

He goes, TJ Ward called me to put you in jail. I go, for what? He goes, for messing with his case. He goes, but I'm not going to do that. Can you take me where you found remains? I go, yes. So we go back there. They check the area out, and then they leave.

And I don't hear nothing, nothing. But I could tell you one thing. When we were outside the hotel, when they seen it, the forensic guy seen it, his own people, they're like, Chief Richardson asked him, is this human? And they looked at it, he goes, yes, this is human. There was a piece of a skull and other pieces, which I don't want to say.

Question to you, Gabriel. Are you in fear in any way? Four days ago, at three o'clock in the morning, two men in black came and tried to break in my house at three o'clock in the morning, two men in black came and tried to break in my house at three o'clock in the morning. Um, I came out and I didn't turn the lights on. They seen me and they took off.

I chased them. They got in the black SUV and left. My, my girlfriend is frightened to death, but I'm not scared. I'm not. I'm like, bring your body bags because it's going to get ugly. And I have not seen them since. You have a daughter, correct? Yes, she is in California.

Tell me about your... They live with their mother. Me and her mom have been separated for about 19 years. Tell me about your daughter. My daughter is 24 years old. She was going to school to be a poker dealer because, you know, I mean Dad, you could do this. You go over there and you do this because I know I believe in you. And then I said, yeah, you're right. I have to. So I borrowed money to go down to Aruba. And because, again, I was out of money. And my daughter that day did not tell me she had a tumor in her size of a small orange. She did not tell me until a month later. I was broken. I don't sleep right now. I mean, I'm about to lose.

I don't want nobody to feel sorry for me, but I'm about to lose my house where I'm at. I haven't been around in three months to try to help my daughter. It's hard. It's very hard. But you know what? If it all comes out to be Natalie Holloway, or even if it's not, even if it's somebody else, we could give closure to a family. And my daughter, she's hurting, but I'm hoping for a miracle to help her out. I'm hoping for a miracle. She cries a lot. She's very scared, but you know, God is not going to let me down.

He put me in this mission. And I know when you try to follow God, it's not easy. Not everybody could follow God, but he's not going to let me down. He's not. Gabriel, I have been told that you have a GoFundMe page to help your daughter. What is that? My GoFundMe page is for my daughter. She has a tumor, and it's growing rapidly. And, you know, she can't really walk too much because she gets tired, and she's very scared. And I've been trying.

I can't come up with the money. I'm trying really, really hard. So I did a GoFundMe to see if people will help me so I could get this disease out of my daughter. And then she needs reconstruction surgery right after that. What is your GoFundMe page, Gabriel? What is your GoFundMe page? You could just go to Gabriel Madrigal on my facebook and you will find it there that's madrigal m mother a d r i g a l correct you're the first person for the first person to ask you that that spells it correctly gabriel madrigal facebook and then you can find his GoFundMe page to help pay for his daughter's surgery. Wow. You know what? You've been living through hell, man. Living through hell. I have. Nobody can understand my troubles. I know what Dave has went through. I mean,

I can't compare, but you know, it's really hard when you have a sick child and basically your hands are tied behind your back. I'm in Florida. She's in California. And she's scared to go to the doctor because she's a baby, a daddy's girl, and wants me by her side. And it's really, really frustrating. It's really, really hard. This whole case, yeah, it killed me. But you know what?

It's going to be worth it at the end. And God is not going to let me. God is going to make a miracle for my daughter. God is going to make worth it at the end? And God is not going to let me. God is going to make a miracle for my daughter. God is going to make a miracle for me. But, you know, until then, you know, I just have to keep having faith. That's all. Nancy? Let's, yeah.

I just wanted to tell Gabriel not to lose his hope. I recently lost my son. And what gives me satisfaction in this horrific story is that Jorn is sitting up in the mountains somewhere in a horrible prison in Peru and will be for the next 20 something years. That's right. Let's all pray to God at all. You know, they all pay for what they have done. Question to you, Gabriel. Why do you believe aruban authorities are so insistent that this these are not human remains why do they keep saying that well they said why because they got too much to hide for one vanis salute uh godfather he was somebody you you know, a big top official. So just think about it.

Paulus is an official there, too. Van Nessu's godfather is an official. So, you know, they just want to get it. They wanted to put it under the carpet. And, you know, let's just forget about this. All those people helped Van Nessu and Paulus not to get rid of evidence. You name it. they're guilty they're very very guilty and i don't understand why they're doing that to their own people i just

don't get it they should just come to people on the island what do they think happened to natalie they think they honestly they all say that Venice killed her and Paulus. That's what they all say when I was there. And that they feel ashamed that the room authorities are doing that to their own people, which is not right. They need to come clean. First you say, hey, listen, here are bones. And they're animal bones. The person takes them, brings them to the US.

The biggest mistake is they did not declare them. I don't care if it's animal bones, you declare them. And then once they bring them over here and did the test, there were still doubts that they were not going to do tests, but they do the test and then they turn out to be human. I knew in my heart, it's Natalie. Why I say this, Nancy? in my heart, it's Natalie. Why I say this, Nancy? Because John declares it too well. From height, from everything. There's some

disgusting parts I cannot say. It is part of the documentary. It's going to keep you guys in suspense. Now, it doesn't benefit me saying anything about, you know, watch the show, this and this and that. Hey, I didn't get paid a a dime i did this out of my body of my heart because i have daughters i did not receive a penny on none of this i didn't i don't have a contract with them either speaking of the series take a listen to this now on this section of the tape john is sharing his admiration for your own so when you met vanderson what did you thought? I was like, damn, he's f***ing famous. I've always looked up to this guy

because I always thought he was cool. Just the way he acted on the news and the media, like how Nancy Grace Hayden, oh, he's so smart, he's so cocky. I loved him for that. I was like, hell yeah, I love how he's cocky and f***, he knows he got away with it. He's enamored with Jorn Bannerslew.

He idolizes the guy and I don't know why. Patricia Saunders, after all he has been through for all of these years, what will it do to Dave Holloway if it turns out that this is not Natalie Holloway? I think Dave is a man of courage and determination. The best antidote to grief is action, and he has been doing that for more than 15 years. I think he will continue his quest to find his daughter's remains. If he gives up now, he's opening himself up to an accumulation of traumatic

grief. I don't think he's that kind of guy. Dr. Saunders, what will it do to Dave Holloway if this turns out to be Natalie Holloway's remains, his daughter? I think it would be a mixture of relief and reform. There's no such thing as closure, especially when a child is murdered. But there's some sense of being grounded, that you have something to bury that you can have a headstone in the cemetery. I think she would have been relieved, and I think it would have opened the doors for her beginning to deal with her traumatic case. You know, Cheryl McCollum, when you're listening to Gabriel talk, and he's talking about this specific location, that it is a set of female bones, this is your expertise, your cold case expert. I'd like you to analyze what you're hearing. Nancy, what I'm hearing is they take a body and they move it from the beach to a place and they bury it. Then they get another person to dig her up and move her again. And now you've got somebody that keeps running their mouth saying, hey, you know, this is her, and you're going to be able to find it,

and you're going to be able to go broke looking for her. And now they describe they added dog bones, then they cremated her. Then they say, no, no, she's in burlap. Nancy, it sounds so far-fetched to me that men are normally A to B in the way they dispose of of body. And if you're on the beach and the Atlantic Ocean is right there, that's where you put her and hide her. But Gabriel wants me to understand and believe that Powell was told, your hand, no, you stay right there with a dead body while I go back and get a burlap sack to break her legs and put her

in it. And then we're going to put a cactus over like that's going to hide something like you know other animals aren't going to dig at that and perhaps unearth her themselves none of this rings true for me I want it to I want this for Dave and Beth so bad but I need a lot more answers before I buy this. You know, that is kind of a bizarre story, Gabriel, that they would put her, I guess, bury her at a location where there was a cactus. Is that how it went, Art Harris, that she was buried by a cactus? Nancy, apparently the way it went down, they took the body to the spot that Paulus, the judge, directed them.

And they dug it up. And at the last minute, he said, let's mark the spot with a cactus so we know where it is. And so they grabbed the cactus nearby, plopped it on top. And that was the last of that chapter. Then what? Then they later come back, and this friend of Gabriel's, John, was paid $1,500 to help your ran fetch the body and move it. And that is apparently when they took it to the crematory,

mixed it with the dog, and got the ashes combined. I'm at a loss as to what happened after that. Art, what I don't understand is this. If her body was in its natural form when it was buried under the cactus, and then it was taken and cremated, mixed with a dog and cremated, what are the bones that they are now scrutinizing? What are those bones, Art Harris? Nancy, that is the big question. How would you have anything left over after you ran her remains and the supposed dog carcass through this oven and mixed them? So, you know, I don't know that if Gabriel can answer that. Maybe this is a twist

and turn we haven't expected, but if you don't have anything hard, any cartilage, any bone to analyze other than ashes, I don't know that that's possible, Nancy. Now, hold on. Let's think this through. And I've said this many, many times. I learned it from a senior judge I practiced in front of. There's a way many times to make all witnesses speak the truth and impugn perjury on no one. In other words, this all may be true. She may have been buried under a cactus and those bones removed and buried somewhere else. Hence the discovery of bones. This crematory story may be totally wrong or the crematory story itself may be true. It's got to be one or the other. But I know this, Gabriel, according to Dave Holloway and the U.S. medical doctor expert, Human remains were found

and the doctor is analyzing them and extracting DNA from them. They are human remains belonging to a female. So, Gabriel, how does it work? How could there be bones and this cremation story?

Well, Nancy, it's very simple. If you cremate something, you're not going to have bones. So the other option is it never got cremated. That is a simple answer. But it's part of the documentary. I cannot say. It's a big twist.

I hear you. I mean, that's what I was just saying, and you said it very succinctly. They can't both be true. Someone may have been mixed with a dog at a crematory. Bones may have been taken and moved, but they can't be the same thing. Nancy, could I add something? Yeah. I would like to play a clip now of the voice stress analyzer that TJ Ward has that he put John's explanation through. They, in this clip, listen to John explaining the crematory

and the dog scenario. Let's hear what their expert analysis of the truthfulness of that statement is. Yeah, let's listen. Roll it. We're going to do an analysis on John and Gabriel's conversation and try to confirm some of the information that was communicated in the last couple of days to be true or not true. We're going to run the audio of the perpetrator through the layered voice analysis and see how it comes back as far as how truthful he's been after changing his story. Okay, are you keyed up on the segment we want to try? Yeah, we're ready to go.

Okay. It wasn't in a national park. So these two snippets together, we have highly stressed and truth. He's smart enough to know he's describing himself committing a crime. When you're looking at these, you can't look at any individual snippet by itself. You're looking at what's around it. You're looking at the numbers. You're looking at what's being said here. And I think he's telling the truth here almost entirely that it's not in the National Forest and that he's, it's going to be somewhere

close to his aunt's house. My instincts all along, just from watching the interview and listening what the perpetrator had to say, it was my belief that he was being truthful, that this new location was the actual location. And now that we're able to confirm with the voice analysis some of the information that we were in question with, I feel good about it. Moving on to the next relevant section, he's talking about at the crematory

and that how VanderSloot knew that he could get the cremation done without anybody looking in the box. He knew he could get it done. He paid him under the table money. VanderSloot knew the family. And again, this shows up as inaccuracy again. Under the table money, it's because it was cremated. We see a high tension, bad feelings, medium risk, inaccuracies. There's definitely something more here to explore

that he's holding back about the crematory. Out to Art Harris. Art? Nancy, one of my questions is given the dark heart of anyone who is friends with Joran van der Sloot and thinking like a criminal and a con man, what would keep him from perhaps taking some of the bones and burying them somewhere else so he could find them later in some sort of leverage or shakedown deal? I haven't even thought that far. But, you know, Gabriel, with all the cases that I've tried and literally in excess of 10,000 cases that I have either investigated, orchestrated guilty pleas, or tried. I try, when I'm confused, I go back to what I know. Okay?

Gabriel, this is what I know, and this is what I'm hearing from you. And I really appreciate you being with us today. Just want you to know that. I know this. I know that, I know Dave Holloway. I know that he loved Natalie more than anything. This is not some kind of a stunt for Dave Holloway. I don't believe that. And Dave Holloway and this very well-known U.S. doctors say it is human bones. And the doctor says it's female Eastern European bones.

So, was that Natalie that went through a crematory? And these are somebody else's bones? Maybe. Are these Natalie's bones? Maybe. But I do know both can't be true. And I believe Holloway and I believe that U.S. doctor, that they've got bones.

And you stated it very clearly. Let me ask you this. What were your impressions, Gabriel, of Dave Holloway? Because I like him a lot. My impression of Dave Holloway, I've seen a broken man. I've seen a man that has suffered for years. I've seen a man that is desperately asking for questions. He wants to find her. All he wants is closure.

And that day I met him, I said, you know, I'm not going to quit. I'm not going to quit. I am going to find her. And I know in my heart I did. I know in my heart I did. Because I have videos that I recorded in my house before I went to Aruba

that I knew it was going to happen. And I know in my heart it's her. I don't know why. I have a strong feeling because I didn't come this far for nothing. And I want to give Dave Holloway and Beth closure so they could bring their baby home. There's a big old twist to this.

Now, the gentleman that was just saying about if there's more parts, I cannot say. That's a big twist to this story not even TJ knows about this I'm the only one the FBI is the one that knows I'm not going to share information when people that treat me like trash no I'm not. Now, does the documentary people know? Yes, they do. But I'm just going to leave it at that. This thing is full of twists and turns.

The two liars try to get away with it. But if God is good, he's going to give us what we want. That is, Natalie, and we could somehow pray to God that they could charge these guys. And I'm afraid they're not. I'm afraid they're going to walk away free. Art Harris, weigh in. Nancy, the fact that he just mentioned FBI gives me a little hope. Because if you remember, your aunt was also under indictment for shaking down Natalie's mother for $25,000, which is hanging over his head should he ever come back and be tried for murder.

So until now, there has been no way to get the FBI into a murder case because they have jurisdiction of American citizens who die overseas. But if this suddenly has gotten them back in to the case, that gives me hope. This is what it boils down to for me. As I was listening to Gabriel talk about Dave Holloway, calling him a broken man, I was just thinking, as I was listening to Gabriel talk. Everybody on the program right now has had a severe loss, a severe loss to think about losing your child. You know, I thought I knew all about pain when my fiance was murdered. When my dad passed away just recently, I did not think I could put one foot in front of the other. He had always been kind of my soulmate, my dad, Mac. To think of one day, you just simply never see your child again and you play over and over in your mind

that last time you saw them that is the hell that Dave Holloway and Beth have been living in all this time and Gabriel whatever the results are you have moved this case forward. And I'm so grateful to you.

Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friends. This is an iHeart podcast.