Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - IS THERE JUSTICE FOR 3 LITTLE GIRL SCOUTS, RAPED & MURDERED AT CAMP?

Episode Date: October 14, 2022

Will there ever be justice for the three little girls murdered at a girl scout camp in Oklahoma? The only person charged in this case has been acquitted. Could new DNA testing methods pinpoint a killer? Today, in the conclusion of our week-long investigation, hear from one of the girl's mothers. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Sheri Farmer - Lori Lee Farmer's Mother Dr. Kristen Mittelman - Chief Development Officer, Othram Inc., DNAsolves.com, Twitter: @OthramTech Nathan E. Clark - Attorney, Rhodes, Hieronymus, Jones, Tucker & Gable, PLLC (Tulsa, OK), rhodesokla.com Dr. Scott A. Johnson - Forensic Psychologist (Minnesota), 32 years specializing in addressing sexual predators, Author: "When “I Love You” Turns Violent" and "Physical Abusers & Sexual Offenders", ForensicConsultation.org James Powell - Former Senior Agent, Oklahoma State Bureau Of Investigation, Former Air Force Office of Special Investigations Agent, Former Senior Intelligence Security Advisor for the Office of Military Commissions at Joint Task Force Guantanamo, Owner: "The Investigator, LLC" Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Faith Phillips - Cherokee Screenwriter, Author: “Now I Lay Me Down”, Website: ReadBooksBy.Faith, Twitter: @phillips_faith, Facebook: “Faith Phillips”  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Three little girl scouts, ages 8, 9, and 10, yanked from their tents in the middle of a rainy summer night, horribly raped and murdered. The only named suspect, Jean Hart, tried and acquitted. This case goes unsolved nearly 50 years until a local high school teacher uncovers four potential suspects, igniting a new investigation. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. This week, we follow the exclusive new Fox Nation series, The Girl Scout Murders.

First of all, take a listen to this. These woods in northeastern Oklahoma are the site of one of the worst crimes imaginable. Two busloads of Girl Scouts left Tulsa headed for Camp Scott. A Girl Scout retreat located on the Cherokee Reservation some 50 miles away. Among the girls were 10-year-old Denise Milner, 9-year-old Michelle Gouzet, and 8-year-old Lori Farmer.

What happened next is unthinkable. Three young girls, beaten, sexually assaulted, murdered. There are children's names you always remember. Lori and Denise and Michelle, they're there. And they're never going to go away. With me right now, a very special guest to my own heart. This is Lori

Lee Farmer's mother. Lori Lee just eight years old when she was murdered during the Girl Scout murders. Ms. Sherry Farmer is with us. Ms. Farmer Sherry Farmer is with us.

Ms. Farmer, thank you for being with us. Thank you so much. I don't feel right about you thanking me. I'm just sorry for what you have gone through, not just at the time, but all these years since then, dealing with the murder of your eight-year-old girl, probably replaying it in your mind over and over, what happened to her before her murder, the identification of Jean Hart, the trial, the acquittal and now the possibility

that other people are responsible for your daughter's murder and they are walking amongst us living and breathing it just I don't know how you keep going Miss Farmer first of all

let me ask you what you recall of the moment you sent your daughter to Girl Scout camp and then learned what had happened. Well, of course, it plays out like a movie, as you know yourself. Actually, my husband received a phone call at the hospital where he is a physician and was told over the phone. And he was not told that she had been murdered, just that she had died in the night. So it took throughout that day to piece together what really happened. We had no idea of her cause of death or that two other children had also been murdered.

So that is a hard, strange way to learn about your daughter's murder. We, from the very first, were very active and involved in searching for the suspect, all of the work with the OSBI, the sheriff's office, the district attorney's office. And from really that very beginning, for some reason, Bo and I felt we needed to be very vocal and here we are 45 years later and we still feel that same way we thought it was important for Lori and for justice so throughout the they searched for heart for 10, and then it was another year before a trial. And yes, we were at the trial every day and into the not guilty verdict. We did feel like that we wanted to do something positive. And we always have felt that way to that Lori's life

and what she stood for and what we stood for as a family, that something positive and good needed to come from her life. Ms. Farmer, after my fiance's murder, I thought I knew it all about pain and suffering and grief.

It was right before our wedding. And it took me, sadly, well over 20 years before I could even consider marriage. Right. It just, my whole life was spent grieving and fighting and never coming up for air, not even once. I just don't know how you get past that. And I've got to ask you a tough question. Do you believe Gene Hart is guilty? I certainly believe he was there.

And yes, I do believe that. And it has taken me a long time to come to that point. I don't know that I am convinced there is no one else who was there. Why are you convinced Hart was part of it? The evidence, a lot of it certainly is circumstantial. But like I said said it's over the years I didn't come to that conclusion just immediately but now through all the things that has happened in our case over the years it's not like

it was investigated then and suddenly now. Things have happened in our case throughout these years that are not publicized. And I feel like that the investigators have been good about keeping Bo and I informed. And we don't go to the news media and talk about it every time. I call it another piece of the puzzle. And we have appreciated that as Faith started this process she did involve us and she kept us updated as to what they were doing and that's been really

important to us. So I think there are some questions about who was there, and we are always open to any new leads or things that might come up. All we have ever wanted from the very first is the truth. We didn't jump on a bad wagon that it had to be hard or anyone else for that matter. We just have searched for the truth.

You know, Ms. Farmer, for those of you just tuning in, this is Lori Lee Farmer's mother, her daughter, Sherry's daughter, Lori Lee, was raped and murdered at the tender age of eight. I've got to say, Ms. Farmer, again, I thought I knew it all about grief, but now that I

finally have children, I don't think there could be any grief worse in the world than losing your child. And you are such a better person than me. You have so much dignity and you're so calm. I think, I don't believe there was ever a prosecutor in inner city Atlanta more hated than me. And I'm not proud. Just all of that raw hurt and anger focused laser beam on getting the right purpose. And you are saying,

you of all people, are saying you believe there could be other suspects. Right. Now, I always pay attention to what a victim's family thinks because they, of all people, want the right guy behind bars. So if the family believes it, then I believe it. I can't even imagine anyone ever assuming that we would want anyone to be held accountable for this crime who was not the guilty person. Absolutely, because A, it would be horrible to be responsible for a wrongful incarceration. To live every day knowing,

ha, ha, ha, I got the wrong person in jail. Who could live with that? And the flip side of that coin is the right person is out there walking free. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A lot of the reigniting of this investigation has to do with a teacher, Faith Phillips, also Cherokee screenwriter and author of Now I Lay Me Down, who became suspicious herself and began researching, began asking the questions. Ms. Farmer, how did you learn that Lori Lee had been killed? As I said, my husband was called by the director of Girl Scouts. Right.

And then he and his partner came home and told me. And Lori was actually, I always think of her as nine because her birthday was in five days. So, you know, I know she's referred to all the time as eight, but we were preparing for her ninth birthday just five days away. And she is our oldest child. Our children at that time were Lori, nine, seven, five, three, and one. I always wanted four children. And we had five. You lucky lady, regarding that many children, but regarding Lori Lee. Did you call her Lori Lee or Lori?

Mostly Lori. Do you remember that moment your husband told you that Lori had been killed? Well, he didn't say she had been killed because we did not know that. He said Lori had died in the night. Right. So we are trying to figure out. Where were you? Sitting on the sofa, in the bedroom, in the kitchen sink?

We were in the living room, and he and his partner said, we need for you to sit down. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. Yeah, and I said, no no i'm not sitting down and bo told me and he looked he looked like i'd never ever seen him look before and then we spent the next hours wondering what happened to her and trying to reach the girl scouts because we assumed that who knew what happened but her and trying to reach the Girl Scouts because we assumed that's who knew what happened, but we did not know. Actually, our neighbor, who had been with us a lot of the time,

said to us, I think there might have been some violence involved. And we said, what in the world do you mean? And he said, we just got to get in touch with the Girl Scouts so that someone will come talk to you. And that never happened. So eventually our neighbors and friends, as they collected at our home, were the ones who told us that someone,

and that it was two other children. We didn't know that either. You know, that's interesting too. Dr. Scott, a Johnson forensic psychologist out of Minnesota, you can find it at Forensic Consultation. Dr. Johnson, when I was first told that Keith, my fiancé, was dead, I didn't know any of the facts surrounding him. Of course, I later learned he had been murdered,

but I just assumed he had been in a car crash. And it wasn't until several hours later, I was at my local little Methodist church. I had nowhere else to go, and I was sitting across the desk from our pastor, and I saw him write, and I read it upside down, Bernstein Funeral Home. That's when I knew for sure that Keith was dead. And he, Billy, told me Keith was murdered.

Why is it we try to look for, just even subconsciously, for a rational explanation? It's just the shock value. We do not want to believe our loved one's gone, and we certainly don't want to believe that it was nefarious. And I think, how the hell do you prepare for that? You don't. And so when we hear that news, our brain goes into protective mode. We want to minimize and deny, and that's just the self-protective nature guys

take a listen to this i was given the name of three people whom my informant alleged were involved in the murder of those girl scouts one of the suspects was given the job of going to dump the vehicle, the murder weapons, and the bloody clothes. I get this letter in my mailbox, and I said, Paul, I think you've got a fourth man. Paul Smith was the sheriff of Mays County after Pete Weaver. The day he took office, he opens a file cabinet. All the files are gone. Sheriff Weaver's son said,

well, I have a box of transcripts that my dad kept in the garage all these years. There was much more in this collection of files than I had any idea. Wow. You're hearing the voice of Faith Phillips, who reignited this investigation. Faith, hearing Ms. Farmer, who you are often in touch with, that she believes there could be other suspects, does that vindicate your investigation? It's wonderful to hear from Sherry, I have from the very beginning, I wanted to be extremely considerate of the families. The last thing, the worst thing that could possibly happen was to cause them more pain. So to hear her say that it's a possibility in her mind that there could be more than one person, it is just a relief to me. Guys, I want you to hear this about the preliminary hearing.

At the preliminary hearing, the prosecution presents a number of pieces of evidence that they say connect Jean Hart to the murders and which the judge admits into trial. Among them are items authorities said were found in the cave, where Hart supposedly hid out after the murders. The first of which are professional photographs of women. The photographer that Gene Hart had worked with at Granite State Prison confirmed that he had developed those photos with Gene Hart when he was an assistant while he was working in jail. Prosecutors also claim that sperm found on a pillowcase at the crime scene matched sperm found on Jean's underwear from prison.

And that hairs found on the duct tape at the crime scene were tested and determined to be from a Native American. Everything that was just said is true, except when you hear that DNA from sperm found at the crime scene matched sperm found belonging to Jean Hart, the suspect that was tried and acquitted. It's not the one in four million type of a DNA match. At that time, that kind of DNA match didn't exist. There was no such thing. It turned out to be that it was one in 7,700 likelihood, the sperm match. Now, to me, that's pretty strong, but it's not the kind of DNA

we look for now. Sherry Farmer, do you know whether the DNA found at the crime scene has been retested using modern DNA technology? Many times. Many times. And what happens? It became more narrowed as to the likelihood that it was Jean Leroy Hart. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So let me ask to another guest joining us, and you've heard her name many, many times, is Dr. Kristen Middleman,

the Chief Development Officer at Othram Lab. You can find her and her husband, also Dr. Middleman, the Chief Development Officer at Othram Lab. You can find her and her husband, also Dr. Middleman. This is Dr. Kristen Middleman joining us now at DNAsolves.com. And I got to tell you, Othram, I've worked on many, many cases where Othram was involved. One of their specialties is to take old DNA, degraded DNA, DNA that's been underwater, DNA mixed with other DNA, DNA that's mixed with mud or dirt or whatever substance and get an answer. Dr. Kristen Middleman, thank you for being with us from Othram Lab. What should be done with the DNA from the scene? We've got Jane Hart's DNA. I assume they have enough to continue testing it.

But Dr. Middleman, what kind of tests should be being run right now in 2022? Well, in my opinion, if there is any DNA evidence left, because unfortunately, hearing the it's been tested many many times actually scares me every time you test dna you consume it can't you regenerate it no there is no way to regenerate dna and from a crime scene such as this one you have a limited amount of dna and so because and that's that's honestly when these cases remain unsolved. So if there is DNA left and of course, there's a possibility of touch DNA, epithelial DNA, which I don't think has ever been done. What kind of tests should be being done right now? It has been done with epithelial DNA as well. We just identified with GBI and the FBI the murder of Stacey Lee Chahorsky was her name.

Sorry, I'm trying to get all the cases together. And we did it from touch DNA on the pants. No, I'm saying in this case, in the Girl Scout murders case, yes. I absolutely believe that the most advanced DNA technology should be used first. And that is SNP testing rather than SDR testing. And it's sequencing. And it allows you to get hundreds and hundreds of thousands of markers from that DNA profile rather than just the 20 SDR markers that you're going to compare.

And the ability to get hundreds and hundreds of thousands of markers allows you not only to be able to confirm identity and say, yes, it was this person or no, it wasn't. In this case, Jean, it also allows you to be able to identify who the person may have been and get information about who the person was, whether you know that identity or not. And so whether we're suspecting the right person or not, whether there is another person involved or whatever the situation is in this case, you would be able to actually infer the identity of the person that left that semen at the crime scene. And because DNA is, like I said, DNA testing is a destructive process. I would start with the type of testing that would give you the most amount of information. And that is exactly what we do here at Awesome. Got a question to Sherry Farmer. This is Lori Lee, Farmer's mother. Sherry, you stated that the

DNA had been tested several times over the years with new technology and that each time it more narrowly and better identified gene heart. I think that is correct. I have kept up with all of that, but I don't feel real comfortable talking about which dna oh i understand yeah but we yes we have kept up with things as they have progressed good to know philips did you know about the continued dna testing that goes back to heart i did i was aware of that and i've been following it and i think that the quote that most often is used in the media is that there was a three out of five prong match. But that was at

the time. The three out of five prong match was back at the time. And that continues to be what is referred to as far as there's nothing that can be reported as a conclusive match by the official. Wait a minute. Let me understand something. James Powell is with me. James Robert Bob Powell, former senior agent, Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, called into this case, I believe in 2018.

You can find him at the Investigator LLC. James, Bob, Powell, what can you tell me about continued DNA efforts and what, if anything, they have revealed? We requested that the two suspects we had in Cherokee County have their DNA taken by OSPI. And as far as I know, that was done a couple of years ago. And I don't know the results of that. It's never been presented to me on what the results of that DNA was. I know I did check with them a couple of years ago. And at that time, they'd taken the DNA, but they had not submitted it.

But one thing to keep in mind, I think in both Faye's case and in mine, we're looking at two different sets of suspects, but we're not necessarily saying because there's no DNA of our suspects there that they weren't involved. We think they could have been accessories or peripheries or they could have been witnesses. They could have participated and not left DNA. So I agree that the DNA that's been tested so far points to Gene Hart, maybe not conclusively, but I would say if I were sitting on a jury, it would probably be more than a reasonable doubt that he left that DNA that we're talking about now. So what I understand is that Sheriff Reed, who grew up in Mays County, was just a boy when the murders occurred, took over and vowed that he would get the answer to the Girl Scout

murders. Now, a year after Reed took over the case, he and OSBI, Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, went to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and 23 of the best homicide investigators and FBI analysts reached the decision. They believe Gene Hart, who was tried and acquitted, was at the very least involved. But when it comes to retesting of DNA, what do we know, Joe Scott Morgan? Joe Scott, joining me, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, and the star of a new hit, Body Bags, with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, joining me, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, and the star of a new hit, Body Bags, with Joseph Scott Morgan.

What do you believe of the retesting? Well, you know, we do know this. We know that there were three sexual assaults. That's what they're calling them. And I think from an evidence-gathering perspective at autopsy, I'd like to know how robust the examination was that they conducted, if they did actual rape kits, what the status of those kits are. Kristen had mentioned a moment ago regarding the destructive nature of the DNA testing. Have they been preserved up to this moment? How much sample is left?

And we have to go back to the hair that was also found at that time, Nancy. And, you know, when they identified that hair, they used a methodology that's referred to as you're looking at the morphology of the hair, which means the origin of it, based upon a catalog that they have. And they said it was Native American. That doesn't mean anything now. The idea is, do they still have that hair sample?

My question would be about the knot, Joe Scott, the knot that was tied and getting epithelial or touch DNA from the knot. I don't know that that's ever been done. Well, touch DNA is so very fragile, Nancy. It's so very fragile. Remember, it's only a partial sample. You know, you compare it to something like, I don't know, talcum, for instance, that can fall off very easy. It's very, very fragile and hard to deal with.

It's not as robust to say if you get it from a blood sample or from a semen sample and that sort of thing. So when you talk about touch DNA, I'd be really shocked if there was anything left. But that's true, Joe, that's true that it's a lot less robust than getting it from blood. But DNA does actually last quite a bit. And we have been able to identify a perpetrator from rope that was found from a case that is over 47 years old. In this case, another issue is a bloody footprint that was found at the scene that people argue did not belong to Hart. Now, according to Sheriff Reed, he believes it is very logical to assume that the print was from someone innocently

walking into the scene because we all know the scene was very chaotic in the crime scene processing. Is that possible, Faith Phillips? Well, you know, I want to say at the top here that I have a great respect for law enforcement, and that's important for me to get out there. I have family in law enforcement. And so I believe that the OSBI and Sheriff Reed genuinely believe and are convinced that it was Gene Hart acting alone. And so I want to state that right off the top. But all of this information has been coming in, including the shoe prints. So we have that boot print, this jungle boot print. This jungle boot print is all over the crime scene. And in addition to the cave and some other places. Then we have a tennis shoe print.

Right. And then when you take those things and you add in this box of information that I got from Herb Weaver that points to Gene Hart, then this makes me think that maybe everybody is right and wrong at the same time. Guys, take a listen to this. It's very important to understand this trial was before DNA. DNA had not become a tool that

could be used either to prove innocence or guilt. There were hairs found on the duct tape that the girls had been bound up with that was what was described as Native American hair. They used that to try and implicate Hart because, of course, he was a Cherokee. That was not good science to believe that hair could be matched. Though DNA testing is not yet available, the prosecution also claims that sperm samples taken from Gene Hart's underwear were similar to the sperm found in one of the girls. There was important evidence on the scene which tended to exonerate Hart.

There was a bloody footprint on the floor of the tent and it was not heart's footprint. It was the wrong size. There was a thumbprint found on the flash home and it was not heart's. So there was exonerating evidence found there as well as evidence that implicated it. There was things there that would lead you to believe that someone else either involved or did the crime. Joining me, Nathan E. Clark, high-profile lawyer out of Tulsa. Nathan, thank you for being with us. What do you make of it? It's a complicated pattern and it's been one that's been looked at, but that's what's so remarkable about what's happening now. The Cherokee Nation's

looking at it. And if you think about the Cherokee Nation being there to protect and provide and govern the Cherokee people, the Cherokee people have confidence in the Cherokee Nation and they have trust. And that is what I'm hopeful is going to lead to new information from the witnesses who are Cherokee about what actually happened that day 45 years ago. I'm very curious. I think at this point, there's so much gossip. There's so many rumors floating that other suspects may be involved in addition to or excluding Gene Hart.

But where is any real evidence? And I keep going back to DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid. Joe Scott Morgan, we've heard some speakers saying that looking at a hair under a microscope, you cannot determine if it is Native American. It's my understanding, having used that technology in rape cases, that you can determine if the hair is from a Caucasian, Asian, African American, and Native American. Is that not correct? Yeah, yeah, you can. So why would they say that you can't tell that?

Well, I think that probably what they're saying is they can say that it is, in fact, from that particular grouping, all right? But you can't put a fine point on it. You can't put a fine scientific point on it like you can today, and that's what you're faced with at this moment in time. It's been known for a long, long time in forensics that we can study the morphology of hair and talk about the racial grouping that it's going to fall in based upon the way it looks. And that's the way it has always been done or was done up to a point. Now, that technology is not considered to be cutting edge when you compare it to what Kristen and her husband are involved in now. Absolutely. I mean, why say, oh, it was

a white guy when you could say, oh, it was Joe Scott Morgan joining us right now from Jacksonville State University. Why stay with just a white guy? So, yes, it's almost obsolete. But, you know, back to Sherry Farmer. This is Lori Farmer's mother who has lived with this case all these years. I was reading something that your husband, Bo, said. Here's a quote. Every bit of information we've gotten over the last 40 years has just continued to nail it down more and more. That the DNA test results, quote, solidified his belief Hart was, in fact, responsible

for the crime. I think that he has a belief in what has, the testing and things that have been done up until this time. And I think he feels more certain than I have been over the long haul. But yes, I guess I have faith maybe placed in the right places. We are and remain friends with the original OSBI agents who worked on our case through the present time. And like Faith said about people, her belief in the justice system, I just find it hard to believe that any of the people that we have been working with all this time have done something maliciously to make it be hard.

I just don't feel that that has happened. And I am still close to Mike Wilkerson and Harvey Pratt and original agents who worked on our case, we are very close with Mike Reed and present OSBI agents, particularly Andrea. And nothing about this just suddenly came to light like yesterday. Anytime new things have come up and people have been kind enough to approach us as faith did, all this time there have been different equations into the picture. And so it's hard for say right here, nothing that's been done is adequate. Or there is one answer that nobody has ever talked about in 45 years. I just have a hard time in my heart believing that. I think one of the most interesting things is how the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children got involved. This was a friend of Lori's from elementary school who was greatly affected by Lori's murder,

and she chose to be a victim's advocate with neck bank and she reached out to us probably eight or so years ago and told us who she was and how much lori had meant to her and she asked if we would like to have the national center become involved and we of course, let's do that. And they sent an agent here and we met with him. And then a week in Washington, going over all the evidence. And those people certainly do not have any reason to want to have a wrong person mentioned as the one who did this. They're non-biased, they're NDC, and as you pointed out, some of the top. So I think as a personal story, it's interesting to me that their involvement became because of Lori. And then I have to give some validity to their results of the findings.

And what were their results, Sherry? Their result was that Gene Leroy Hart was the most likely suspect in this case. To James Powell, how much do the struggle between the Cherokee Nation jurisdiction versus the U.S. or Oklahoma jurisdiction weigh into this? Well, after McGirt, it tends to give most of the jurisdiction to the tribe, depending on the victims, whether they were native or the suspects, whether they were native or both, or one or the other. That decision has changed recently, and perhaps Faith might know a bit more than that. It's changed tiny, but back in 77, it was concurrent jurisdiction. Most of the counties had agreements with the tribe that they would chair the jurisdiction. But generally speaking, in 77, up until very recently, the county took precedence over almost all of those crimes.

This case reignited by a teacher who feels confident that other people were involved. Years of research and legwork have gone into Faith Phillips' belief, Cherokee screenwriter. But see for yourself. The Girl Scout murders exclusively on Fox Nation. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.