Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - ‘It looked like the devil was in there.’ Killer brutally strangles girlfriend for staying out all night: Police

Episode Date: April 15, 2019

A young man walks into a New York City police station to report that he had murdered his beautiful 21-year-old girlfriend — because he was angry she had stayed out all night.Nancy's expert panel weighs in on the case:Joseph Scott Morgan: Forensics expert, and author of “Blood Beneath My Feet”Caryn Stark: PsychologistAshley Wilcott: Juvenile Court Judge & Trial AttorneyEllen Killoran: Crimeonline.com Investigative Reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A so-called jealous boyfriend walks into a police station apparently bragging he murdered his gorgeous young girlfriend because she stayed out overnight. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I'm talking about she looks like a young, beautiful Kim Kardashian. That's what she looks like. She's absolutely stunning and is just 21 years old. She looks like Kim Kardashian before there was ever a lot of plastic surgery. Youthful, innocent looking, long black hair, beautiful big brown eyes with the world in front of her again a young man walks in to a police station apparently bragging that she got what she deserved because she stayed out

overnight straight out to ellen kaloran crime online.com investigative reporter Ellen first of all I want you to listen to our friends at WPIX-TV. 21 year old Indira loved fashion and was always seen dressed up but that could have cost her her life. This friend and neighbor does not want to be identified but tells PIX11 Rivera was beautiful and that her 23 year old boyfriend was jealous. She says he was no good. And Wednesday evening, Rodriguez walked into the 46th Precinct and allegedly confessed to murder. He even gave detectives the keys to the couple's apartment here on Nelson Avenue in the Morris Heights section of the Bronx

and details on where to find his girlfriend's body. When police arrived, Rivera was found strangled to death on the bathroom floor. You are hearing our friend Nicole Johnson reporting on what we know so far. Ellen Kalorn, it's bad enough that there is a murder, number one. But number two, to seemingly brag about it to police. That's right, Nancy. He walks into a police precinct on Wednesday. He says, I had a physical fight with my girlfriend. I choked her. She's dead. Then he hands over the

keys to their apartment. But here's the thing. It wasn't right away. It was two days later that he kept that poor young woman's body in their apartment. Okay, I'm going to need to shrink on that. But take a listen to what our friends at NBC4 say. Angel Feliz Rodriguez may have left here in handcuffs after turning himself into authorities, but he didn't have much to say otherwise. Angel Feliz Rodriguez is facing charges including murder and manslaughter in connection to the death of his own girlfriend whom he shared a home with on Nelson Avenue.

That girlfriend, identified by police as 21-year-old Indira Ramirez Rivera. Now the NYPD says she was found unconscious and unresponsive in her basement apartment around 6.30 last night with trauma to her neck that was so severe she was pronounced dead at the scene and we spoke to people around her neighborhood who knew her well very lovable never rowdy as never nothing she was just a good girl you know going to work coming home she worked all day came straight home to this you know i, I don't get it to Ashley Wilcott, a juvenile judge, lawyer. You can find her at AshleyWilcott.com. Ashley, it's bad enough that there's yet another domestic homicide, but he seemingly is bragging that he did it because she stayed out late. Yeah. You know, the fact that he murdered her is one thing, but it also shows you insight into his mental state that he bragged about it.

He thinks it's okay. He still thinks she deserved it. He doesn't get, you don't get to kill people. He thinks in his mind it sounds like I'm no psychologist, but hey, it's okay. She deserved it because she stayed out all night, so I didn't do anything wrong. You know, then really making no bones about it get just handing over the keys to the cops like there go ahead what does he think it's an all boys club and they're not going to prosecute him because she stayed out all night and she's gotten punished. To Joseph Scott Morgan forensics expert professor

forensics Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Tell me what we know about her body. And remember, we're learning this after she has been lying there for two days. You know, Nancy, one report that I'm reading is stating that one EMT is reported to have said it looked like the devil was in there. And I keep hearing this term extremely violent that's associated with this. We don't know all of the details from the medical examiner yet. But what we do know is that this young girl literally had her throat crushed. And they're saying that it was by manual strangulation laying on the floor in the bathroom.

And, you know, in a very specific area in the house, I don't know if there's a lot of turned over furniture, signs of struggle, but he subdued her into the bathroom where he squeezed, literally squeezed the life out of her young body. I'm in the middle of, actually, I just handed in my rough manuscript. It's over 100, thousand words and it's titled, will be titled, Don't Be a Victim, Fighting Back Against America's Crime Wave. And I noticed, Joe Scott Morgan, I was looking up advice, which seems very trite when you're talking about a school shooting, but that's what that section was about. And one of the things

a lot of experts say is don't go into the bathroom. Don't go into the bathroom because typically there's no way out there. You're sealed off. Like don't go into a conference room or don't get in a spot like a closet where there's no way out unless you really have to. And you're going to think this is crazy, Joe Scott, but especially when I was prosecuting felony crimes, I would have dreams of running into a bathroom and being trapped, and then a whatever particular defendant would come in, and in the end of the dream, I'd be fighting for my death, or I'd look around, I'd see there was no way out,

and then turn around, and there was the perp, and, you know, I'd start fighting, and that would be the end of the dream. I had that repeat dream over and over, and now I'm remembering, I hadn't thought about it in years, but now I'm thinking about Indira in that bathroom, and the fact that that was the location she may have run to or he cornered her there. But it's like one of the worst spots you can go to, Joe Scott. Yes, it is, because there is no point of exit from these locations. It's a single entry.

And I think a lot of people, I don't know if it's the media that does this, you know, and relative to entertainment and this sort of thing, it's always portrayed as people going into the bathroom to get away from a potential attacker. But what always happens in those cases, people lock the door in the movies, and even in the movies, the perpetrator comes through the door, they bang the door and terrorize the individual. Where in the world are you going to go? Plus, it's a very, very small place to try to combat someone that's on the attack. What we are learning right now about the death of Indira is that her neck showed

signs of a violent, violent struggle. Her neck was, quote, traumatized. What does that mean, Joe Scott Morgan? Well, this, you know, in order to have what is described as a manual strangulation, Nancy, this is very up close and personal. People can either be C-clamped with a single hand that's wrapped around literally the windpipe, or they can be throttled, which is utilizing both hands if it's a manual strangulation, until literally the life is squeezed out of them. You're preventing the flow of blood, first off, from the heart to the brain. The individual becomes anoxic or they lose oxygen to the brain. And also you've got this crushing mechanism that happens with the tiny little muscles that run along the sides of the neck and also the windpipe itself.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A family in mourning after police say a man confessed to killing his girlfriend last night inside their basement apartment. That man was charged earlier this morning at the 46th Precinct. News 12 The Bronx reporter Lena Salzbank is on Nelson Avenue with the latest. Police sources say they believe 21-year-old Indira Ramirez Rivera may have been strangled. Investigators say they found the 21-year-old body inside the basement of 1628 Nelson Avenue around 630 Wednesday night after her boyfriend, 23-year-old Angel Esteban Feliz Rodriguez, admitted to the police that he had killed Rivera. Police say he is facing charges of murder and manslaughter, but neighbors and friends are still left wondering why. What was the motive behind this act of violence? This is something police say they are still looking for

the answers to. They say the investigation is still ongoing. It's amazing, stunning, sickening that this man walks into the police station like with full of swagger you know what i mean ladies full of swagger throws down his keys to his apartment go yeah yeah i killed her she stayed out late and i don't like the way she dresses, stays out late and didn't like the way she dresses. I have been poring over photos of this young girl Indira and she's gorgeous and she's always dressed like at the height of fashion. I don't understand that. You were just hearing our friends, Christy Reeder, telling us what we know about the death of Indira. Another thing we were learning right now is Joe Scott Morgan, there may have been blunt force trauma to her head as well. Now, we know that there was strangulation. We're not sure

if it was manual or ligature. Let me go back to that first, and then I'm going to bring in a renowned psychologist joining us from Manhattan, Karen Stark, and you can find her at karenstark.com. Joe Scott, how can you tell if it was manual or ligature strangulation, and what would the difference be as far as the killer's frame of mind at the time? Okay, Nancy, with a ligature strangulation, what we would be looking for are what are called ligature furrows, which are these tiny little lines that are created on the neck, say if someone is using a belt or a rope in order to strangulate someone, as opposed to clamping their hands around the throat.

If an individual is utilizing a ligature, that means that they have something prepped, an item, in order to facilitate this. In the mindset of a manual strangulation, this is a reactive event many times, just rage, where they are just seemingly just reaching out in that moment. Hi, just Scott. Yes, ma'am. just got, are you sitting down? I am. Karen Stark, are you sitting down? Yes, I am. Ashley Wilcott, are you sitting down? Yes, ma'am. EK, are you sitting down? Yes.

Okay. And Jackie Howard here in the studio, you better lay down. Okay. I better restrain you. Guys, I'm just getting in more information that not only is there evidence of blunt force trauma, strangulation, but vaginal cuts. Okay. Let that sink in just a moment. Vaginal cuts. Cuts to her private parts. This guy, I am telling you, this guy is the devil.

I worked for nine years at night volunteering at the Battered Women's Center, nine years. And I would always go home and say, well, you know know I thought I'd heard it all till tonight I thought I'd seen it all until tonight well right now I'm feeling well I'm about to break down in tears Ashley Wilcott because I really feel like I've seen it all I'm looking at this young girl who by the way and this is what I'm going to go to karen stark on was planning to leave the boy she never got to she wanted to go back and pack her things and leave because of his jealous tirades and she has endured not only blunt force trauma strangulation but cuts to her private parts most likely with a knife ashley help me so here's the worst part. The autopsy is going to show this. We don't know at what point he inflicted all those brutal, angry, angry actions to this body. We don't know

if it was before she died, after she died. But the point is this, this is not quote unquote, just in our field of murder. This is a brutal, brutal violation of a beautiful young lady. Karen Stark, I've been saving you, actually. Karen, I hardly even know where to start with this, but I'm going to try to plow ahead like I would with a jury. When they're all sitting there in the box, all 12 of them, they're looking at you to put it all together and make sense of everything. But right now I'm looking at photos of her and she's just beautiful on the outside and apparently beautiful on the

inside, quote, a good girl, according to all the neighbors and all the relatives. Vaginal cuts. Karen, let's just start with that. Rage, Nancy, rage. I mean, if he can't have her, no one could have her. And he's going to destroy that part of her that makes her a woman so that nobody can enter her. I mean, I know that's very graphic, but that's the kind of rage that this man felt toward her, so jealous that such a personal death, we've talked about that before, where he wants to see her die. He's looking at her as the life is seeping out of her. This is a man who just was waiting for her to come back so he could

do this. And unfortunately, she was caught in the kind of situation that happens with women who are abused, where the more that someone is attacking them and starting up with them, the less they feel good about themselves and the more they wind up staying in this situation and they have trouble leaving. You hear it over and over again. According to one news source, he says, quote, I had a physical fight with my girlfriend. I choked her. She's dead.

And, you know, we talk about it a lot. Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer judge lawyer anchor you can find her at ashleywilcott.com we talk about domestic homicide a lot but unless you're in it you don't really get it the other day i was i was researching something online and a woman a young woman had pulled an april fool's hoax on her boyfriend, and she had set up a, I guess, her cell phone or iPad to video, and she told him that she wanted to break up just to see what he's going to do. He lit into her and started beating her. She was sitting on a sofa or a daybed or something. And he was pounding on her. And it was very graphic and very upsetting. And I think it's easy for us to talk about domestic homicide and talk about battering

in the home. But when you see it, I mean, Ash, I've told you this story. I remember the first time I had a felony calendar of 150 brand new felonies, and I saw a woman. It was an arraignment calendar. And I saw a woman walk into the courtroom. I flicked around and saw her, and I turned back. Then I looked back at her again. She's on crutches. She was in a cast on one leg from the hip down, all the way down, on, and behind her was her boyfriend.

Well, you know what she wanted, coming to arraignment. She wasn't called as a witness. That's just when the person is, you know, formally read what they're charged with, and they enter guilty or not guilty. If they can't afford a lawyer, we give them a lawyer. She came to try to get me to drop charges goaded by her boyfriend, who was, by the way, the defendant. And I didn't, I didn't know what to do because I didn't have any training in it yet, but I did not drop the charges. And I said, look, it's not her fault. She wants me to drop them. She's begging me to drop them, but I'm not dropping them because you'll go back and you'll do the same thing again. She had a broken leg, Ashley. And I would see it over and over and over again. It's horrible. It's horrible violence in the home.

It is. And Nancy, I see it on the bench all the time. You have parents come in front of me and one of them is the victim of domestic violence. And people don't understand how violent it is, number one. Number two, that it mentally is not something you just walk away from. It is a horrible abuse of a person, of another. The other piece of this is the most dangerous time is when they finally choose to live, get the support to actually leave the domestic violence. That's when these crimes happen. That's what this report is.

She was going to leave him, and look what happened to her. Police are trying to figure out what led to a woman's death in the Bronx. Just a few minutes ago, her 23-year-old boyfriend was walked out of the 46th Precinct Station house in handcuffs. Today in New York's Tracy Strands in Fordham Heights with the latest. Tracy. Angel Felice Rodriguez may have left here in handcuffs after turning himself into authorities, but he didn't have much to say otherwise. Angel Feliz Rodriguez is facing charges including murder and manslaughter in connection to the death of his own girlfriend, whom he shared a home with on Nelson Avenue.

That girlfriend, identified by police as 21-year-old Indira Ramirez Rivera. Now, the NYPD says she was found unconscious and unresponsive in her basement apartment around 6.30 last night with trauma to her neck that was so severe she was pronounced dead at the scene. And we spoke to people around her neighborhood who knew her well. Very lovable, never rowdy, never nothing. She was just a good girl, you know, going to work, coming home, going to work, coming home. She was found dead around 6.30 last night, but early this morning, we watched crime scene investigators come out of her apartment with bags of evidence.

This, hours after law enforcement sources familiar with the case said Ramirez's boyfriend turned himself in. Now again, that 23-year-old will now face a judge sometime today on charges of both murder and manslaughter. The medical examiner will determine exactly what caused that victim's death. You are hearing from our friends at WNBC, that was Darlene Rodriguez talking about a horrific death of a gorgeous young girl, Indira Ramirez. The vaginal cuts, Ellen Kaloran, we're getting a lot of conflicting stories. We're getting that she was murdered in the bathroom. We're getting that she was murdered on her bed.

We're getting that she was found in the basement. A mishmash of that could be true. But also we are learning that there was blunt force trauma to the head, that there was strangulation. I'm going to circle back to you, Joe Scott, on manual versus ligature strangulation, and that she had been cut repeatedly in her private parts. Ashley Wilcott, judge and lawyer, what more do we know? Is it true that she was going back to pack to leave which typically is one of the most violent times the most volatile times in a relationship except when you're pregnant you know that's the number one leading cause of death amongst pregnant women in america is homicide but that's another can of worms back to this what more do we know all right

so part of the facts that i want to bring out in this case, Nancy, is that allegedly she had gone abroad to have plastic surgery. And for her, look, she's beautiful. I, you know, I struggle with, I don't think she needs plastic surgery, but that was her choice. She did that. And then she came back. And so some of the facts are that he was even more jealous because of her appearance. And that was part of the children, which was true in so many domestic homicide cases that I tried, that I investigated, that I tried to help people at the Battered Women's Center. They feel like, well, okay, if I can just get the children through high school or just get them through college, and then I'll leave.

And a lot of times it was too late. But here, she was not encumbered with that. But the fact that she is, and she looks so fresh faced. You know, she looks, I'm telling you, like Kim Kardashian prior to surgery. Maybe I'm seeing the before shots. But Karen, I mean, this woman has it all. She's young, beautiful, smart, well-loved. Why would she go back into this relationship? She's young, she's beautiful, she's smart, and she's caught in a vicious cycle, Nancy. And the cycle is, here's somebody who wooed her, who loved her, supposedly, who won her over, and then he starts to be abusive. And every time she decides,

okay, I'm going to get out of this, he becomes apologetic. I'm telling you, this is usually how it goes. And he pleads with her to stay and she gives him another chance. And each time her ego is getting diminished and she's feeling less good about herself, less worthy because she has stayed, she can't help herself, and he's made her feel that way. And soon it becomes almost impossible to leave.

And then we have a scenario like this where if he gets wind of the fact that she actually is strong enough and brave enough to get out of there, he goes after her. And that's what makes it so vicious and so telling is that you see it all the time. She just keeps staying and staying because she loses the ability truly to leave. You know, I find it interesting and concerning, Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joe Scott, why is there so much conflicting reporting in the autopsy? Well, I'm not sure it's the autopsy. It may be police reports. Is her body that badly attacked that they can't really tell the COD cause of death? I think that probably what we need to wait on is to have an affirmation from the medical examiner. You've got multiple sources. Remember, I said

earlier, you had an EMT making a comment publicly where he said that it looked like the devil had been in there. Maybe there's a few of these police officers that have come out and made a comment as well. So this is problematic. You get a lot of crosstalk in cases like this, Nancy. We already know that this is an absolutely ghastly scene. So we don't know the true facts until the medical examiner comes out and officially tells us details about what happened to this beautiful young woman. A woman found dead in her home. Right now we understand that it was a revenge killing because she, quote, stayed out that night. I want to go to Ashley Wilcott, and I want to talk about the vaginal cuts to her, to her body. Strangled, blunt force trauma to her head, vaginal cuts to her body, and almost as if justification, he tells the cops he didn't like

the way she dressed, and she stayed out all all night like they were going to side with him. Yeah. Blame the victim. I hear this a lot, believe it or not, in court parties will come before me and blame the victim. It's their fault. It's not my fault. That's exactly what he's doing. And the vaginal cuts are direct evidence that he believes he was right and she was wrong and it was her fault and she stayed out all night. And so listen, here's what I did because of her behavior, because of the way she looks. That's how messed up he is in his head when he committed this horrible, horrible murder. I'm still not understanding, and I never have understood, Ashley, why with everything going for her, and I've said this in a million speeches, domestic homicide,

domestic battery, domestic assault crosses all boundaries. It doesn't matter if you're rich, or if you're wealthy, if you're poor, if you're middle class, it doesn't matter if you graduated from sixth grade or have your PhD. You know, didn't we just see a female prosecutor murdered on the other side of the country by an ex? And there she was with her law degree, gorgeous, young, great degree, the works. None of that matters, Ashley. None of it matters when it comes down to domestic abuse. No, anybody can be a victim of domestic abuse. And the message to get out there is as hard as it is, as tough as it is,

at the very first sign that someone is abusive, reach out. That's where I'm going to encourage everybody. Reach out, talk to someone, get out of that relationship at the very first sign. It's not worth the risk that you are going to be the victim. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Right now, we're trying to figure out why.

Why Indira went back to a brutal domestic situation. Why is she dead? Why was she killed three times over? Blunt force trauma to the head, strangulation, vaginal cuts, apparently with a knife. Joining me, Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, author of Blood Beneath My Feet. Renowned psychologist, Karen Stark at karenstark.com. Joining us from Manhattan, Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer, anchor at ashleywilcott.com. But right now to Ellen Kaloran, crimeonline.com investigative reporter. Ellen, what more can you tell me about the facts?

Well, we know that the suspect was a very, very jealous person. And we also have heard Indira's friends say that she was getting ready to leave him. She was thinking about going back to that apartment, packing up her things and getting out of there. So we don't know if maybe that Monday that she was there, that she was killed, was the time that she was going back to get her things. She may have been trying to get out. Yeah, that's my understanding as well. What I don't understand, Karen Stark, is if he's so jealous and so angry at her, why did he want to keep, why did he want to stay together? Why not just let her leave? Well, because Nancy, he's so jealous and so angry

because he wants to possess her. He's not going to let her leave because she is his. He's going to damage her so nobody else could go near her. He's going to keep that body. I'm not sure if he kept abusing her, but I wouldn't be surprised. I could just picture him because we're not talking about a normal person. This is somebody who's so narcissistic, who says she's mine. She can't be somebody else's and still screaming and battering her after she's dead. That's what I imagine. To Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Joe Scott, I haven't really thought that much about necrophilia, but I had to think about it a lot recently because of Ted Bundy.

A little known fact about Bundy, we see him, many people think he's charismatic and attractive. I don't, but many people do. I was speaking to Dr. Oz about this the other day, and I said, Oz, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let's just get it out there. Ted Bundy would go back to the scene of the crime and have relations with the dead body after it was decomposing, and would only stop doing that until animals had taken parts of the body away. That's how long he would go back and have relations with the body. He would take some of

the victims and bathe them, redress them, put makeup and fix their hair. He would sever a lot of their heads and just keep them. Okay? So that's what I'm talking about by necrophilia. Joe Scott Morgan, he kept Indira's body in the home for two days. What do you think was going on in that 48-hour period? That's really hard to say. I don't know if he was— It's not hard for me to say. He was abusing a corpse. That's what he was doing. Well, the possibility certainly exists. I think that when we begin to explore the nature of these injuries, you know,

we're talking about this vaginal trauma. I'm going to be real interested to see if there are any what we refer to as focal areas of hemorrhage in these cuts that they're talking about. Was she taught like a regular person? In other words, with the vaccine cuts, did she bleed from those cuts? Because if she didn't bleed, that would indicate they were post-mortem or after her death. Yeah. And then we have to throw in the term torture at that point in time, Nancy. And I hate to bring that up. As horrible as

necrophilia is, you begin to talk about torture. Was he torturing this young girl prior to her death? And again, this goes to timeline. How long had she, in fact, been dead? I'm hoping that the investigators at the scene took a real close look at this to see what the level of changes were at the scene and And then couple that. Now you're dumbing too far down for me. When you say look for changes, I'm interpreting what you mean, Joseph Scott Morgan, to mean how long had she been decomposing? How long has she been lying there?

And I just want to throw another wrench in the works for us to all mull. She was found face up. In other words, if she were found on the bed, she was face up so that she would have been looking at the boyfriend. Now, another thing I'm curious about, Joe Scott, is if she was clothed or unclothed. Because if she were clothed, that means that the vaginal cutting had taken place and then he dressed her, which is another creepy fact to put in front of a jury because it's true, but it goes to his frame of mind. Now, where were you, Joe Scott Morgan? Oh, I was accusing you of dummying down, too far down. Changes, what changes? Well, we would be talking about changes like the stiffness

in the body, rigor mortis. And you mentioned if she was face up or not, was post-mortem levidity or the settling of the blood, where was it? And this goes to another thing. You talked about these individuals in the past that had done these things to the deceased, was he posing the body in any way? Was he manipulating her body, moving around? And some of those changes that we talked about post-mortem can be misinterpreted if an individual is in fact posing the body post-mortem. There's a lot of information that's going to come out through the medical examiner at this point in time. I think that it's best if we wait and see what they have to say. Well, when you say posing the body, let's talk about that for a moment. Ashley Wilcott,

I want to come back to you now that we are talking about the necrophilia aspect of what happened to Indira. Another thing for her family to endure, to think that she was abused post-mortem after death. Well, I think my opinion is she was. And here's why. Remember, Nancy, he waited two days, two days before he reported that he did this two days. Why do you keep a body that you have killed in your own house and reports are conflicting, but allegedly on the bed face up for two days? There's no good that's going to come out of that. So I'm very fearful as to what he did before killing her, but also to her body after killing her. I mean, when you think it through, Karen Stark, I've got to come to you. You're the shrink with me, Karen Stark, renowned psychologist at KarenStark.com joining us from Manhattan. Karen, what does it mean

to be a necrophiliac? Why the attraction to a dead body, particularly one, the body of someone you loved or you claimed you loved? Psychologically, Nancy, that is somebody who really does get off on making love to someone who's dead, having sex with a dead body. That turns him on. It's not as exciting to have someone who's alive. It's the same as being turned on by watching the light go out of someone. He enjoys this. That's part of why he has no conscience. He goes

back to Ted Bundy's story is such a good example of that, where he's still getting excited every time he visits the scene. He takes little tokens. And when he looks at those tokens, that gets him off. All of these things have to do with his sexuality, which is perverted. It's very telling, I think, whether she was dressed or undressed, because she had vaginal cuts. Clearly, she had to be undressed for that. But then if she were redressed by the time the cops found her body, that means that he was abusing the corpse and manipulating it in some way at the very, very least staging it. This is what I know. I know that in that jurisdiction, Ashley Wilcott, you can kill as many people as you want to,

and you're not going to get the death penalty. Max is going to get life. That's right. Yeah, that is where there is no death penalty. So you're right. Max says he's going to get life but here's the thing to me he needs to be charged with each and every crime he committed murder is not enough not enough and so the autopsy will show so they know what charges are appropriate whether he did these things the brutal vag uh brutal uh cuts to the vaginal area before she died, after she died, what he did to a deceased

body. All of these things are really important so they can charge him with every single crime that he committed. We wait as justice unfolds for Indira Ramirez Rivera. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.