Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - IVY LEAGUE “ASSASSIN” SUSPECT’S BOMB PLAN, EVIL TO-DO LIST, BARES TEETH IN COURT

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The so-called Ivy League assassins plan to bomb Manhattan emerges along with an evil to-do list. list? The mask slips off the prep school grad as he bares his teeth in court and now fighting extradition? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. For just over five days, our NYPD investigators combed through thousands of hours of video, followed up on hundreds of tips, and processed every bit of forensic evidence, DNA, fingerprints, IP addresses, and so much more to tighten the net. We deployed drones, canine units, and scuba divers. We leveraged the domain awareness system, Argus cameras, and conducted aviation canvases. And our detectives also went

Starting point is 00:01:06 door to door interviewing potential witnesses and doing the good old-fashioned police work that our investigators are famous for. And police commissioner Jessica Tisch was right. It worked. Listen. A man was taken into custody today at Altoona, Pennsylvania this morning. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione. He's a male, 26 years old. He was born and raised in Maryland. We know he has ties to San Francisco, California, and his last known address was Honolulu, Hawaii. He has no prior arrest history in New York. And now the battle moves to the courtroom fighting extradition. Well, I mean, he was either going to waver, challenge extradition. There's a pretty clear cut process. If he files his petition for habeas corpus, we're in the process now of securing a governor's warrant from the state of New York. And, you know, we'll be prepared when the judge

Starting point is 00:02:02 schedules the hearing to do what's necessary to get him back to New York. And, you know, we'll be prepared when the judge schedules the hearing to do what's necessary to get him back to New York. That from our friends at Forbes with me, an all-star panel straight out to special guest joining us, Christina Awayo, national news anchor, Salem News Channel. Christina, what is the latest? We saw the mask slipping yesterday as Mangione was taken into court, screaming and baring his teeth. His lawyer having to quiet him in court. What happened? I think that this is the first time that we've seen any real emotion from Mangione, right?

Starting point is 00:02:36 He has been calm. His first arrest, he was shown without emotion. All of his mugshots, his pictures, he seems very emotionless. So this is very telling, his reaction. You see it there on the screen. He's angry, he's scowling, and he's sending a message out to apparently the journalists that are behind, something to the effect of it being completely unjust, of this being a lived experience, of this being an insult to the intelligence of the American people. And it's telling in the fact that he is very convicted in his beliefs. He's

Starting point is 00:03:06 very passionate about what he believes in. And we see that you said the mask slipped in the courtroom and he was attempting to tell his attorney something really insignificant about him purchasing the mask. So it also tells us that he's focused on these tiny little insignificant things such as whether the Faraday bag was waterproof or the $8,000 was planted in his first court hearing. And he's not really focused on the gravity of the situation of what's going on. Could you slow down just a moment? I want to hear that again.

Starting point is 00:03:37 You got me drinking out of the fire hydrant here. That's a lot of information. I want everybody to hear what you just said, what he was saying in court. And I've got some video for you. I'm going to show you in just a moment, Christina, but repeat. Well, in that first court hearing, he was focused on insignificant things. He was focused on that Faraday bag and wanting to clarify that it was a waterproof bag instead.

Starting point is 00:03:56 He's also focused on the $8,000 that police found on him in cash, saying that it was planted there. And he's not really focusing on the main issue at hand, which is he's staring down the barrel of a murder to charge. This is a heavy situation. This is a heavy charge. And then he's shouting his messages, the first sign of emotion that we see. And he's showing us that he's very convicted in his beliefs. He's very passionate. That's the only sign of emotion that we saw. And then in the extradition hearing, again, something super insignificant, whether or not he purchased the blue mask that he was wearing. Let's take a look at Luigi Mangione. insult the intelligence of the American people and lived experience. Lived experience, that from our friends at Des Moines Register. Listen.

Starting point is 00:04:54 When Luigi Mangione arrives for his extradition hearing, he's agitated, physically struggling with deputies and shouting at gathered media. In court, he is surrounded by six Blair County deputies to prevent any more physical or verbal outbursts. As Mangione is leaving the courthouse, he seems under control, calm and silent as he leaves the courthouse, headed back to jail. We showed you a tiny bit of Mangione blowing up, screaming at everyone, saying that law enforcement, the police are, quote, completely out of touch, that it's, quote, an insult to the intelligence of the American people and lived experience. I find it really interesting. I'm going to have to go to a shrink in just a moment. Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us. He is focusing on clarifying that there is a waterproof bag

Starting point is 00:05:36 and that the money, about 10 grand plus some foreign currency, was planted Like the beat cop and Altoona had some foreign currency on him to plant. Okay, whatever. But I want you to see this American people. It's a bad experience. Straight out to longtime colleague, forensic expert. By the way, from our forensic Des Moines Register, thank you for that. Cheryl McCollum joining me, forensic expert and founder of the Cold Case Research Institute, star of Zone 7 podcast. Cheryl, thank you for being with us. You know what? I'm looking at what Mangione is saying, the so-called Ivy League assassin. Reminds me of somebody you and I know very well. I was at the Olympic bombing. You worked on the Olympic bombing along with me.

Starting point is 00:06:46 Eric Rudolph then sending off other bombs in tandem. He thought he was in the right too. And then of course, we've got Ted Kaczynski. We've got Timothy McVeigh. All of them think they're the good guy. And we heard it from his own mouth just then. And I'm going to go to Guy D'Andrea in just a moment. But that cannot be suppressed in court.

Starting point is 00:07:11 Nobody made him blurt that out. That can be played over and over and over on a loop when this finally makes it to a jury. But first to you, Cheryl McCollum. Sound familiar? Sounds familiar. And you and I talked yesterday about the importance of messages with this young man. What we are seeing with this alleged killer is he cannot help himself. He has got to tell his side.

Starting point is 00:07:37 He already has a lawyer. You know the first thing that man said to him was don't say a word. He can't help it. The outburst will continue. I believe that he's going to start sending letters to people from his cell. He has to get his message out, period. The reason that we are talking about bombers is because in the to-do list, the so-called evil to-do list. There is evidence he planned to bomb Manhattan.

Starting point is 00:08:07 Not only did I work the Eric Rudolph Olympic bombing the night of the bomb and there on, I happened to be in Manhattan on 9-11 as if the city could take another event. But listen. Luigi Mangione has a 262 word handwritten manifesto on him when he's arrested. And in it, he mentions a spiral notebook. CNN is reporting that in the spiral notebook, Mangione was keeping a to-do list leading up to the murder of CEO Brian Thompson. He's thinking about using a bomb to kill Thompson instead of shooting him in public. Mangione allegedly decides against

Starting point is 00:08:45 bombing the building because it could kill innocents and decides to shoot Thompson. Straight out to death investigator, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, where there is an incredible criminal justice program. Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, the thought of what a bomb could do. You know this. When Rudolph's other bombs went off at the abortion clinic, my investigator was there and was hit with shrapnel. The body count as a result of a bomb is immense.

Starting point is 00:09:24 Could you just before we get into the mind of an alleged killer, the so-called Ivy grad assassin, before we go kick around in his mind, can you just describe what happens with a bomb, a homemade bomb? Now you've got McVeigh who used fertilizer, but there are killing children in the nursery at the Murrah building. But you also have the typical kind of bomb a homemade terrorist would use using shrapnel. What does that do to the victims, Joe Scott? Well, in the approximating area where the concentric area where the bomb goes off, those bits of shrapnel, as you refer to them, those are bits of, and in the case of the Olympic Park bombing, which I was part of that investigation as well with the ME, he had all manner of things that were in there that created shrapnel, and

Starting point is 00:10:18 they become projectiles as that blast out concentrically from that area. So you've got bits of concrete, perhaps. You've got bits of wood screws, nails, anything that can become a projectile. It's very nonspecific. But what it is meant to do is actually become a weapon of terrorism because you have people that are wounded. There are still people walking around today, Nancy, bearing those scars from that night back in 1996 from the Olympic bombing. You take that and you traumatize another place like Manhattan,

Starting point is 00:10:53 which is already seen, certainly its fair share, and you can drive a location into total paranoia by doing this. And this guy, I think at his heart, he's a selfish anarchist, more than likely. You know, I guess that's just part of his, what do you call it, his lived experience, which is nothing more than a bunch of psychobabble nonsense. I guess the real thing that we're going to hear about now is he's going to speak his own truth into power or some kind of nonsense like that. Yeah, he had it rough, Joe Scott, up there on the 40th floor of Honolulu High Rise, looking out at the sunrise and the sunset before he went surfing every day.

Starting point is 00:11:31 OK, but that said, guys, we are getting information also of reports of a fingerprint match to Mangione from the scene. Had to be from a bar or candy wrapper or the cell phone that was left behind or the water bottle. He left behind a lot, but we're understanding there is a fingerprint match to Mangione from the scene. Were there other items left at the scene? Was it somehow nearby on a fixed object such as a parking meter? I don't know, but a match from the scene. And we'll report as we hear more. Straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, high profile psychoanalyst out of L.A., author of Deal Breaker. You can see her on Peacock now. Dr. Bethany, thank you for being with us. When I was listening to Joe Scott talking and we've got so much to cover so far, this is all I've got of the manifesto, but I understand other sources have it in full.

Starting point is 00:12:36 I'm very curious why the whole thing has not been released. That said, when you think about the mind of a would-be bomber and the vast damage that can be done, it's a unique criminal that plans to bomb. And I'd like, first of all, to hear what you make of his appearance in court. this leaning over and trying to quibble with his attorney means that he's concentrating on the bits and pieces, but he cannot see the big picture of what he's done and where he's going, that he'll probably spend the rest of his life in jail. You know, the way he's screaming in front of the courthouse, he actually sounds organized psychologically. He doesn't sound disorganized. So that would rule out mental illness. When he says it's a lived experience, I think he's trying to say that he personally just say a lived experience. What are you talking about? Did you get that from him? He's trying to claim that this

Starting point is 00:13:38 personally happened to him. He's not making it up. He's not fabricating. It was a lived experience for him. This guy, you know, what impresses me, Nancy, is that when somebody is having a mental health episode, they're not organized psychologically. This guy is extremely organized in how he planned, executed the crime, what he's saying in front of the courthouse. He has thought this out. The idea that he ruled out bombing people because it would kill innocents, that shows a capacity for problem solving. So I'm going to say this guy is somebody who feels so wronged by society, by the healthcare companies. I think even when he was complaining to the friend that he couldn't have sex because of his back, I think he was just whining and complaining. I'm wondering

Starting point is 00:14:31 if that's even true or he just loves talking to people in a particular way that he's always the brunt of something bad. Mangione is shackled at the waist and ankles for his court appearance. At one point, Mangione tries to interject while his attorney Thomas Dickey is arguing for bail, addressing the $8,000 U.S. dollars and $2,000 in foreign currency found with Mangione at his arrest. Dickey turns to his client, instructing his client, don't say a word. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us in All-Star Panel, straight out to Guy D'Andrea, veteran felony prosecutor, now civil lawyer at Lafayette, Bucci, D'Andrea, Reich and Ryan. Guy, thank you for being with us. You know, I always loved it as a prosecutor when there was an uncontrollable client in court, the defense attorney can't do anything with them.

Starting point is 00:15:33 They're prone to blurting things out that I can use in front of a jury. And of course, it's even better if they do it in front of a jury, because in front of a jury, you know, think back on all of the defendants you have seen in the past. Think about Scott Peterson, how well he came off in front of a jury and in front of cameras, convincing people with his demeanor alone, because of course he never took the stand that he was innocent. Many people thought he was handsome. Not me, but many people did. College grad, great golfer, wonderful job, beautiful home, lovely wife, baby on the way. Why would he do this? Well, he did. But some defendants just can't help themselves. Like

Starting point is 00:16:19 this guy. What is it like to be in court with an uncontrollable client guy? If I'm the one representing them, not good at all. If I'm on the other side of the aisle, like you said, as a prosecutor, when I was a homicide prosecutor, it was the best because there's so many telling things, Nancy, about what they're saying when they blurt it out. They think they're helping themselves when really it's the nail in the coffin, typically for a defendant who's blurting things out. And, you know, the right demeanor and the right presentation in court can even beat a fingerprint match that we're learning has just been made with items at the scene. We are also hearing, Christina, joining me is Christina Oigo, a news anchor, Salem News Channel.

Starting point is 00:17:06 Christina, thank you for being with us. We're also hearing about his spiral notebook that like the ghost gun that was made with a 3D printer, live ammo, including a hollow point bullet. Those are devastating. I'll have Joe Scott explain what that is in a moment. And so much more. He kept with him a spiral notebook to be found by law enforcement. What was in the notebook that we know so far, Christina? Well, I think that spiral notebook is going to be even more devastating because if he is the author of what was written in that spiral notebook, it talks about killing the CEO. One of the specific lines from that notebook, when he talks about killing an executive, he says, What do you do? You whack the CEO at the annual parasitic bean counter convention. It's targeted, precise and doesn't risk innocence.

Starting point is 00:17:59 So if this is indeed his, if this is indeed his writings,'m sure there are many more passages that there that are going to implicate him in being guilty of this crime because he seems to be according to his outburst according to the way he can't be quiet in court he wants this message to get out so he probably chronicled every thought that he had every step that he allegedly made leading up to the assassination of brian thom. And that is going to be used against him, obviously. And like you said, devastating. This might be, I mean, essentially one of the biggest smoking guns in the entire case in convicting Luigi Mangione. Back to Guy D'Andrea, a veteran, former felony prosecutor. Guy, can we just parse those words? Listen to this. I mean, what the defense attorney

Starting point is 00:18:48 who seems very convincing and genuine, by the way, I mean, he has a really good demeanor, kind of a homespun demeanor. I'm going to show them to you in just a moment. But guy, listen to this. The words exactly out of Mangione's spiral notebook. And we're going to be able to prove that with DNA on the pages, fingerprints on the pages, writing comparison. Plus he had it in his backpack. Okay. Listen to this guy.

Starting point is 00:19:13 What do you do? You whack the CEO at the annual parasitic bean counter convention. It's targeted, precise, and doesn't risk innocence. That's just one of the passages in the notebook, Guy. What do you do with that? As a defense attorney or as a prosecutor, because as a prosecutor, it's amazing because it shows any defense in terms of mental health issues, which I don't believe exists at all, when based on all of his actions and his statements, he is sort of setting out this perverse social justice warrior, right? Disgusting, in this notebook that he doesn't want to hurt innocents. He just wants to hurt CEOs at insurance companies, almost like a nullification. He's almost building this out

Starting point is 00:19:59 from the beginning. And so as a defense attorney, I don't know what her Herculean task they would have to do to get that suppressed. But I don't see any way in which they'd actually be able to do that under the law. Let me throw a technical legal term at you, Guy D'Andrea. You're screwed as the defense attorney in this case because that spiral notebook and we haven't heard the whole thing yet and we haven't heard the whole manifesto yet. You know, Tom Ruskin joining me. Very critical today, former NYPD detective investigator, now private investigator, president of CMP Protective and Investigative Group, Inc. Tom Ruskin, thank you for being with us. You know, Central Park and this area where the execution went down, you'd think a to-do list would be gravy, right? On top of your

Starting point is 00:20:49 meat and potatoes. But remember Robert Blake, who absolutely masterminded the murder of his then wife, Bonnie Lee Bakley. They had a horrendous to-do list. Buy shovels, get lime to get rid of the smell, get rope. And they still lost the case. Blake was acquitted. So even a to-do list doesn't always do the trick. I think what we really haven't discussed here today, as it happens, I'm very familiar with this area because it was my first area patrol that happened to be my sector where the Hilton is. I know that he ran through the alley between the Ziegfeld and across from the Hilton. He did a lot of pre-planning here. Not only did he know or find out where Peterson would stay and where he was going to walk. But he also had a lot of weapons training because the way you see him take the stand,

Starting point is 00:21:51 the way you see him when the gun jams, the ghost gun jams, he clears it, is not something that you do on the spur of the moment. We will find out that he went to ranges or that he fired this gun. He got the gun to be a functioning ghost gun with a silencer. And I think that's going to be very important for the prosecution to show the level of pre-thought and premeditation in this matter. Not to mention, he was very careful in the way he left. He had a route. As I said, he ran through the Ziegfeld lot there to the city bikes. The Ziegfeld theater, right? The Ziegfeld theater and alleyway that's between them, between the Ziegfeld theater right in the back where Cherko used to be, and then ran to the city bike thing.

Starting point is 00:22:47 I think he also pre-planned to lay down that backpack in Central Park with the Monopoly money. He knew he was not going back to the hostel and fled the city on the bus in Upper Manhattan. He also didn't go back to the same bus terminal he came in on and didn't take the same route out of town. This is all premeditated that will come out in time and will show his level of thought premeditation for whatever his manifesto was. A man is dead, gunned down, shot in the back, the father of two boys. But for some reason at this hour, the alleged shooter, the so-called Ivy League grad assassin is being glorified and the witnesses and the police, law enforcement on the case are being vilified. Listen. Three McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania are getting hammered online by one star reviews and very derogatory comments after a call from

Starting point is 00:23:52 a restaurant led to the arrest of the suspect in Brian Thompson's murder. One post reads more like narc Donald's. I hope obesity and heart disease are in network MPA denied defend oppose diarrhea at McDonald's. Another says, written by poster Jordan A, this location has rats in the kitchen that will make you sick and your insurance isn't going to cover it. Yet another Google user writes, service was terrible, rats everywhere. The word rat, which can also be used to reference a snitch, is common among the posts. Straight to you, Dave Mack, joining me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. There are no rats, actual rodents in McDonald's. The witnesses, the elderly patrons that spotted the alleged killer

Starting point is 00:24:36 and the employee that called police, that's who they're referring to. They're talking about them, calling them rats. This is a shocking development, Nancy, that for some reason, there's a whole generation of people that are seeing this guy's side of whatever is going on in the world today. They're favoring this guy and calling the people who actually do the right thing, the rats. You know, Tom Ruskin joining me, former NYPD detective investigator, now PI and president of CMP, Protective Investigation Group. Tom, do you remember when OJ Simpson, Orenthal James Simpson, was driving on his low speed chase, holding himself hostage. Very, very, very, very well. I was at a Knicks game that night. Yes. And all the banners hanging from bridges and people holding up signs, go OJ. Did they not see the crime scene photos of Nicole Brown with her head practically chopped off,

Starting point is 00:25:46 only hanging on to her body with a little bit of skin at the back? Did they not see those pictures of her that emerged in the courtroom with her face blown up like an eggplant, beaten and battered by O.J. Simpson? And they're going, free O.J.? Really? Right. And let's not forget Daniel Goldwyn and how brutally he was attacked as well in just leaving Nicole's house that night. People see, from a law enforcement standpoint, people see sometimes these type of people who are taking in their mind a crazy,

Starting point is 00:26:28 crazy stand against the health care system, in his case. That's not very well liked by a lot of people in this country. That's not justification for shooting someone. It's justification for changing laws and making consumer rights better. But this guy will be seen in certain circles around our country as a hero. And the cops planting $8,000. Most cops don't have $8,000 in their savings account., the great work that the NYPD did in putting it together, tracking his moves, being able to find the wrapper that he ate of that health bar, the water bottle, and the bullet casings, which I believe one of those items are the ones that will tie to the print now that we have the suspect. Some social media users are using the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson to make a statement by urging potential jurors in any future trial of Luigi Mangione to acquit the alleged

Starting point is 00:27:36 murderer, even if they think he's guilty. These so-called Gen Z influencers are urging other social media users to become familiar with jury nullification. This is when a jury returns a not guilty verdict, even when they believe the person is guilty. Have they lost their minds already online? A vast community urging a future jury to acquit the so-called Ivy League grad assassin? What? You know, it's not just that. You've got to hear Niamh, N-I-A-M-H on TikTok. Listen to this woman.

Starting point is 00:28:18 To the people who are going to end up on that jury for that guy who shot the CEO, they haven't caught him yet. Just remember that if all they have is circumstantial evidence and eyewitness reports, you don't have to make that man guilty. Research shows that eyewitness reports are the least reliable evidence in a courtroom. You can make people believe they saw something that they didn't, and you can make people think that they didn't see something that they did. You don't even need to bring up jury nullification. All you have to do is ask your fellow jury members whether or not they remember the guy who served them coffee two weeks ago. And if they can't give you a good description, just say, how do we know that they're giving us

Starting point is 00:28:53 a good description, especially since this man was covered head to toe? We don't even know if it's a man. How, how would we know? Let that man go free. Well, okay. Now i've heard it all i thought i had already heard it all but now i have heard it all that from neom h on tiktok uh straight out to guy d'andrea joining us former felony prosecutor now now civil attorney guy she's talking about jury nullification, which is what happened in the OJ Simpson case. The jury said not guilty because they were mad at some, a few select members of the LAPD. Absolutely. Jury nullification is a real thing. And the prosecutors in this case, if it goes to trial, must make sure they have the right type of juror. And this woman who was just talking about how, do you remember the person who served you coffee two weeks ago? It's so ridiculous

Starting point is 00:29:52 and simplistic in its thought process. It's not about if you remember someone, a barista who served you coffee in this crowded coffee house. It's, did you see someone in a horrific event shoot and kill someone? Those two events are starkly different. And you don't need to worry about eyewitness identification here. The physical evidence that we were already learning about that was found on his person is overwhelming. Also, he was not covered head to toe, NIMH. He took his mask down to eat in McDonald's in a corner seat. And that is when elderly patrons observed him.

Starting point is 00:30:33 There you go. He's not covered. And how do you explain the coinkydink, the coincidence that he happened to have a ghost gun, a manifesto, a spiral notebook, and a loose round, which was a hollow point bullet. Joe Scott Morgan, very quickly, before I forget about it, explain what a hollow point bullet does when it lodges in your stomach. Yeah, I've actually got one right here. If you can look down the long axis of that, the hole, and this is a nine millimeter, what happens is, is that upon striking the target, a nine millimeter,

Starting point is 00:31:06 for instance, it's going to expand out almost twice the size. So what you're looking for this to do is to do maximum damage that it possibly can as the little wings expand into, and it's going to cavitate through that area. It'll rip through various vessels, organ systems, this sort of thing. And it's almost a guarantee that the individual, there's a higher probability that the individual is going to wind up fatally wounded. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dave Mack joining me from CrimeOnline.com, investigative reporter. We were talking earlier, Dave Mack, about banners hung from bridges when Simpson was holding himself hostage in the infamous Jeep chase. So the same thing. It's like history repeating itself.

Starting point is 00:32:05 It's happening here. Even a little bit worse, Nancy. We know that Luigi Mangione was the valedictorian at the exclusive Gilman School for Boys in Baltimore. Well, less than 24 hours after the guy is arrested and charged, over Interstate 83 southbound lane in Baltimore, a huge banner that says, Deny, Defend, Depose.

Starting point is 00:32:30 Free health care for all. I'm thinking about how the family and loved ones of Brian Thompson are feeling when this is the kind of support for the murderer, alleged murderer. And believe it or not, an on-air anchor caught gawking, salivating at a shirtless photo, as she said, of attractive Luigi Mangione and his 14 pack stating, quote, he clearly went to the gym, even demanding that the control room take down the banner so she could see Mangione in full, I guess, without a shirt. You just got Morgan. You were amazed about an article you read demanding that Kim Kardashian come to the defense of Mangione. What did you

Starting point is 00:33:26 read? Yeah, I was. Yeah, yeah. Actually, you know, our friends at Daily Mail, you know, I open them up generally every morning, you know, to take a look, see what's going on. And there was in big headlines saying that individuals are actually soliciting Kim Kardashian today to ask her for money. So for this anti-capitalist individual who comes with a silver spoon, fully equipped, already packaged, they're asking a billionaire to swoop in to his assistance to provide monies going forward in order, I guess, to put up a defense for this guy. There's no end to this, Nancy. It's absolutely mind-blowing. You know, I'm very taken aback by the public support of an alleged assassin. Cheryl McCollum, we can amass all the forensic evidence we want apparently now. Fingerprints tying him. You cannot

Starting point is 00:34:20 beat a fingerprint unless you've got DNA. And I expect they're going to have DNA matching him to a water bottle there at the scene. If you have a groundswell for vigilante justice. Nancy, I believe that is why these news organizations that have the complete manifesto have not printed it. If you remember back with Zodiac, when you name certain victims and you're going to say what you're going to do to those victims when and where and how, it's a really good idea not to make that public because of copycats and other people that might have, you know, a desire to harm someone. So I believe the manifesto includes a hit list. But I'm going to tell you something else about these folks that are champion. We saw it in Delta where people blamed the sister.

Starting point is 00:35:12 They said that law enforcement was corrupt. They walked around the courthouse saying free. Right. They attacked you and I for being at the. I don't know why being in the the courtroom and stating we believe Richard Allen was the killer. They went haywire. You're talking about a group of people that think Robin Hood was real. You know, I was just going to bring up Robin Hood to Dr. Bethany Marshall, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author joining us out of LA. Bethany, before you start, you do know Robin Hood was not real.

Starting point is 00:35:47 It's just a movie. It's just a story. There is no friar tuck. That's not real. I do. So here, this guy, I mean, Gianni is being compared to Robin Hood, who, by the way, even if he was real, never killed anybody, much less an unarmed man by shooting him in the back. Hey, Nancy, I think the more ideological people are, the more they have a capacity for hatred. So let's look at this through the lens of group psychology. People sometimes align themselves with very rigid belief systems as a rationalization for hurting other people. Think of Warren Jeffs of the FLDS cult. I mean, they were basically raping children and women, but they set themselves up as this very religious institution. So I think all these people

Starting point is 00:36:34 who are siding with Luigi Mangione are a group of people and it's become a group psychology where the ideology he's spouting, the hateful ideology, is something that they identify with. Legal battle going on right now. Take a listen to Mangione's defense attorney. Well, like I said, he's an American citizen. He's presumed innocent. Let's not forget that. That's the number one premise of a wonderful country. That's what I want people to remember. We have the constitutional right to do that, and that's what lawyers do, and I'm proud of that. Like I said, we didn't get nothing.

Starting point is 00:37:09 There was nothing in the courtroom. If you were there, you saw me object, I need to see evidence. We're entitled to see that, and we need to see that. That's Thomas M. Dickey, Luigi Mangione's lawyer. That video from our friends at KATU. This guy is a legal commentator. He was formerly in the Blair

Starting point is 00:37:27 County Public Defender's Office, which means he's tried a lot of cases. You can't be a prosecutor or a public defender and not try a lot of cases if you're in charge of a courtroom. To Christina Awayo joining us from the National News Salem News Channel. Christina, what happens now? We know Mangione is fighting extradition. Yes, we do. Now we need to learn more is what happens now. We need to learn more about what's in that spiral notebook.

Starting point is 00:37:58 We need to learn more about the evidence. We need to learn more about, I think we know a lot about his history and where he came from, but we need to learn what tied all of this together. And I think it all rests on when I initially heard that he was a suspect, I searched his X page and you see this x-ray of a spinal cord with pins in it. And that's essentially the linchpin for all of this, I believe. So we need to learn more about his mentality. We need to learn more about why there is a big rush to support him. We need to learn more about why he committed allegedly this crime in cold blood so we could figure out where we go from here. Because it seems as though we've lost humanity a little bit with the push. You see it all over social media, free him, free bro, free Luigi. And as I was doing my research, I contacted a couple of healthcare

Starting point is 00:38:45 professionals in the mental health industry. Why? Why is there such a support for this guy? And they said, basically, people like a bad boy. They're like a bad boy with a good look, and they feel like he's taking down the big companies and the healthcare companies. It's basically a David and Goliath sort of a situation. So we need to learn more about where his mentality is, why he allegedly did what he allegedly did, and figure out how to prevent this in the future. Nancy, can I jump in? Yes, please do. He is a walking contradiction. This kid cannot decide, hey, I'm rich, I come from money, but I hate people that are greed and have too much. He's a tech genius, but he uses a spiral notebook.

Starting point is 00:39:27 He has a back injury that is so severe he can't have sex, but he can run and ride bikes and, you know, ride buses for five hours. He won't speak to the police, yet he has an outburst in front of 15 of them. He says in his manifesto he's not qualified to really speak on it, but he's qualified enough to murder somebody. Nathan, he's a fan of the Unabomber. So I'll just quote the Unabomber. I believe in nothing. That sums up this alleged killer. Cheryl McCollum, you are so right. I do know that the Blair County District Attorney does have his priorities straight. Listen. The Blair County charges are still active.

Starting point is 00:40:07 We intend on prosecuting them. But we also intend on cooperating with the New York City Police Department and the Manhattan DA's office. We've already indicated to them that we believe their charges take precedent and we'll do what's necessary to accommodate their prosecution first. That from our friends at Forbes. and I commend Peter Weeks. It takes, you know, a big person to be humble. The charges in Manhattan are murder, murder to be specific. The charges in Pennsylvania, where Weeks is a prosecutor, are charges connected to forgery and firearm. We are waiting for this case to be transferred to Manhattan in a court of law. This case is far from over. Prosecutors are still building their cases. Now with the social media wave that is anti-law enforcement, anti-justice,

Starting point is 00:41:08 many people may not come forward. But if you know or think you know anything about the movements of Mangione prior to and after the execution style slay of Thompson. Please dial toll-free 1-800-577-TIPS. 1-800-577-8477. There is a $60,000 reward. We wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart podcast.

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - IVY LEAGUE “ASSASSIN” SUSPECT’S BOMB PLAN, EVIL TO-DO LIST, BARES TEETH IN COURT

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