Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - JAW-DROPPING DETAILS EMERGE IN IDAHO STUDENT MURDERS

Episode Date: January 6, 2023

The probable cause affidavit explaining why Brian Kohberger is the prime suspect in the murders of four Idaho students has been released.  The documents contain some bombshell details, including the fact that one of the surviving roommates saw an intruder moments after the stabbings.   According to the affidavit, the surviving roommates said everyone in the home was asleep by 4 a.m. on November 13, except for victim Xana Kernodle. She had made a food order through Doordash and had used TikTok at 4:12 a.m. One of the surviving roommates said they later heard a male voice say something like, “‘It’s ok, I’m going to help you.” That roommate claimed they opened their door to spot a man in a mask walking toward her. She claimed she did not know the man, who she described as being athletically built with bushy eyebrows. The suspect reportedly walked past the roommate and left the home through a sliding door. The roommate said she stood there in shock but eventually locked herself in her room. The affidavit also alleges that Kohberger's phone was in the area of the home more than 12 times before the November 13 slayings. According to the affidavit, Kohberger’s DNA was found on a knife sheath next to Maddie Mogen’s body. Cops reportedly acquired his DNA on December 27 by taking trash from his family’s home in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania. The trash sample was reportedly a 99.98 percent match to the DNA located at the crime scene. Joining Nancy Grace today: Dale Carson - High Profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself  Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA), DrBethanyMarshall.com, New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' (Beverly Hills)  Brian Fitzgibbons - VP Operations, USPA Nationwide Security; Instagram: @uspa_nationwide_security; Kingsman Philanthropic's 2022 rescue missions of women and children in Ukraine; Iraq War Veteran JoScott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet;" Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA.; @ColdCaseTips; Host of new podcast: "Zone 7"  Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation; Former Homicide Detective; Worked over 300 Homicides in a 25-year career; Host of YouTube channel: The Interview Room CeCe Moore - Chief Genetic Genealogist, Parabon NanoLabs, Inc.     Laura Ingle-Senior Correspondent, Fox News Channel; Twitter: @laurraingle, Instagram:@lauraingletv  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Finally, the probable cause affidavit for the suspect in the brutal slayings of four beautiful young Idaho University students has been unsealed. And what a bombshell. From DNA to cell phone records, it goes on and on. police now believe and reveal that they say Brian Koberger stalked the four victims all the way back until June

watching them at odd hours late in the night and early early in the morning hours very similar to the times the murders took place I'm Nancy Grace this This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. This probable cause affidavit has also spun out more questions than answers. For instance, take a listen to our friends at King 5.

The first thing coming out of this is that one of the surviving roommates in that home tells investigators she was woken up by the sound of crying and saw a masked man dressed in black walk right by her. Another big takeaway is that investigators say DNA was found on a knife sheath found at the crime scene. A small piece of DNA was found on there and then DNA taken from Koberger's family home in Pennsylvania was matched to that knife sheath they say with more than 99.9% accuracy. 99.9998% accuracy excluding all other possibilities that that DNA came from

anyone other than the killer's biological father. Again, thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories. We've got an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning now from a bombshell document. But first, I want to go to a very special guest joining us, Laura Engel, senior correspondent, Fox News. You can find her on Twitter at Laura Engel. Laura, thank you so much for joining us. What we were just playing from King 5

really lets the cat out of the bag regarding one of the roommates, Dylan, one of the roommates that lived. Do you see the, let me just say, inconsistency in her statement? Not that she's inconsistent, but it's inconsistency, inconsistent with what we think we know, all right? Because we've been led to believe that she and another roommate lived on the bottom floor with two roommates on the second floor, other roommate on the third floor. But if she is on the bottom floor, Laura Engel, then how did she see the perp dressed all in black, five'10 or taller, bushy eyebrows, face over nose and mouth, athletic? How did she see him go out the sliding glass door if she's on the bottom floor?

You're right. I mean, this probable cause affidavit gives us these new chilling details of these ambush murders. I mean, things that we answer it answers a lot of questions and leaves a lot unanswered still. So the person identified in the probable cause affidavit only identified as DM that we realize is one of the surviving roommates, Dylan Mortensen, described three times in that night. Remember, police originally told us that the two surviving roommates slept through it all. And, you know know the 911 call didn't come until just before noon that day that there was an unconscious person at the residence but now we see that this surviving roommate came and caught or

not contact but saw the suspect in the house but first heard a noise thinking that it was maybe Kaylee playing with her dog, then heard what sounded like crying. She opened her door three times, and on that third time, she says that she saw a suspect dressed head to toe in black, wearing a mask, only revealing bushy eyebrows, walk right by her, and then exit through the kitchen to the sliding glass door and exit. That only makes sense if she came upstairs from the ground floor, which is where we heard

she was sleeping, or there's another bedroom that we maybe didn't know about that she was on that second floor. That's a huge question going along with if she encounters this person at between 4 and 4.30 a.m., why a 911 call was not made until nearly noon. But my question, Nancy, is this. Remember, the call was there is an unconscious person. Did the other roommate, did she pass out? Did she go into hiding? Was she in that frozen state of shock that she said that's what she, she stood there in shock when she saw the person? You can only imagine how terrifying that would have been.

But why that time gap? That is one of the biggest takeaways of this probable cause affidavit, why that call was not made. You're hearing the voice of Laura Ingalls, senior correspondent with the Fox News Channel, joining us. affidavit why that call was not made you're hearing the voice of Laura Ingalls senior correspondent with the Fox News channel joining us she has been on the ground from the get-go on this case Laura if you would would you go through and to me right now this is the main fly in the ointment after hearing see hearing about seeing reading that probable cause affidavit, would you explain everything

you know to this juncture about what the roommate Dylan Morganson said? And we learned this from probable cause. And remember, there may be a lot more and there may be a very easy explanation about what we're talking about to answer this question. Was she sleeping on the second floor? Was she somewhere other than the bottom floor? Why didn't she call 911 immediately? Did the defendant see her? There's no indication that he did.

So many questions. But remember, a probable cause affidavit is literally, think of a skeleton. What all it's missing? The eyes, the eyebrows, the skin, the face, the hair, everything. It's a bare bones outline for a judge, just enough evidence, so the judge will sign an arrest warrant. They don't give the judge the whole file that explains everything. They give a bare bones affidavit.

They get that warrant and bam, they go make the arrest. But for everybody else, I want to hear Laura Engel explain what we know right now about DM. That's how she's referred to in the PC affidavit

still in Morganson. What exactly did she say, Laura Ingalls? She told police and one other nugget here that I didn't know either. And I don't think anybody did is that Zanna Kernodle received a door dash order at the residence at approximately 4 a.m that is new we did and that she was awake according to her phone records at approximately 4 12 because her phone Xana Cronodal who lived on the second floor was likely awake using the tiktok app at approximately 4 12. Okay whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa Laura Engel you got me drinking from the fire hydrant again too much too much, too fast. Because I want to cross-reference something. His car, a white Elantra, was spotted by other surveillance video in the King Road area. Between 3.29 and 4.20.

Videos from the King Road area that night. Or is it 4 to 4.25 425 actually I think it's both so what we're hearing right now about the DoorDash and the TikToks fit in perfectly with the surveillance video from the King Road area you just have to lay on one layer after the next to build this case. Okay, back to Laura Engel. All right. Slow it down, lady. Tell me again everything we know about roommate DM. So when we go to page four of the probable cause affidavit, DM stated that she originally went to sleep in her bedroom on the southeast side of this second floor.

DM stated she woke up at approximately 4 a.m. by what she stated sounded like Bencalvis playing with her dog in one of the upstairs bedrooms, which was located on the third floor. That is what I'm referencing. That is the first time I have seen or heard that her bedroom was on the second floor. Or wait a minute, could she have just been sleeping there on a sofa? Sure, but it

says in the affidavit, he stated she originally went to sleep in her bedroom on the southeast side of the second floor. Yeah, it does. That's what it says on page four at the top. DM stated she was awoken at 4 a.m. She thought she heard Kaylee playing with her dog upstairs on the third floor. A short time later, DM said she heard who she thought was Gonsalves say something to the

effect of, quote, there's someone here. A review of the records obtained from a forensic download of Zanna Cronodal's phone showed this also could have been Cronodal, as her cellular phone indicated she was likely awake and using the TikTok app at approximately 4.12. So I'm not sure if they're saying that that voice could have been,

there's someone here coming from her phone. Nonetheless, that is what she heard and then she states to police that she looked out of her bedroom but did not see anything when she heard the comment about someone being in the house she stated she opened her door for a second time when she heard what she thought was crying coming from kernodle's room she said she heard a male voice saying something to the effect of quote it's okay i'm going to help you end quote then at approximately 4 17 a security camera located on king road which is immediately to the northwest of 1112 King Road, picked up a distorted audio of what sounded like voices of a whimper, voices or a whimper, followed by a loud thud. A dog can be heard barking numerous times starting at 4.17 a.m. That security camera,

which is next door, less than 50 feet from the west wall of Pernodal's bedroom. And then finally, the most chilling part, DM stated she opened her door a third time after she heard the crying and saw a figure clad in black clothing and a mask that covered the person's mouth and nose walking towards her. The man described the figure as about 5'10 or taller, male, not very muscular, but athletically built with bushy eyebrows. The male walked past DM as she stood in a, quote, frozen shock phase. The male walked toward the back sliding glass door. She then locked herself in her room after seeing the male. She did not recognize the male. And this leads investigators to believe the murderer left the scene.

You are hearing Laura Engel, senior correspondent with Fox News Channel, breaking down what we know about DM's testimony. What we know she saw, what she heard, what she experienced the night her roommates were murdered. A Fox Nation exclusive. An international pop star stripped of human rights. How does that happen? Easier than you think. Join us for a deep dive into Britney Spears' conservatorship. Trapped, streaming now on Fox Nation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Straight out to Cheryl McCollum joining us, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. You can find her at coldcasecrimes.org. Cheryl, what do you make of it? It sounds like to me that the murders started on the third floor, which is really curious to me, because if you've got DoorDash coming at four, she's on TikTok at 412 on the second floor. Do me a favor, use proper names so we all know she who go ahead start over please okay well again if you've got dylan hearing dogs barking hearing the crying having this strange person talking to her between 4 12 and 4 17 and then you've got the car that we all need to look for the white elantra at 420 leaving at a high rate of speed. It sounds to me like Dylan at 4 o'clock heard something on the third floor

that she thought was Kaylee playing with her dog. But again, whatever was occurring on the second floor between 4 and 412 to me is critical. So it sounds like this started on the third floor with Kaylee. Straight after Joe Scott Morgan joining us, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University and star of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. What do you make of Cheryl's interpretation of the timeline? There's one piece of evidence here that I think gives an indication that it's third floor. It started on the third floor. Yes, it started on the third

floor. And the indication of that is a single piece of evidence, which is in fact the sheath that was found adjacent, according to the affidavit, to Megan's body in the bed right there. And the fact that the knife was unsheathed in that area and left behind gives an indication that that's where it started. At least to me, that's a place to begin. And then after after it was done, these homicides were committed on the third floor, the progression goes down to the second floor where Ethan and Zana were. Guys, I'm just trying to take in everything that happened to these young people that night. Think about it.

My twins just turned 15. These victims are just a few years older than them. In their beds, no idea what was to befall them. And now we hear Brian Koberger had been around them on their perimeter over and over and over, watching them, stalking them. In the last hours, Koberger in court. Take a listen to our cut, 245 King 5. Brian Koberger was in court. Take a listen to our cut 245 King 5. Brian Koberger was in court. He was in an orange jumpsuit, but was not in any type of handcuffs or shackles that we could see. He just said a few brief words responding to judges' questions. And here's what came out of this morning's court appearance.

He was formally charged with four counts of murder, one count of burglary. But the big takeaway is that due to Idaho law, once he makes that appearance in court, the probable cause documents are then made public. That's essentially a paper that's written by law enforcement laying out their case as to why they believe this is their man in this murder investigation. Straight out to a special guest joining us in addition to Laura Engel from Fox News. Cece Moore is with us. And to the rest of the panel, I'm getting to you as quickly as I can, but please jump in when you have a thought.

Cece Moore is, well, she's brilliant. She's Chief Genetic Genealogist at Pirabon NanoLabs. Cece, I want you to address this. The first time I used a statistic like this in court with DNA trying to prove a case, it's an astronomical, a fantastical number. But the number is, and this is what we know, and anybody on the panel can backtrack on this after CeCe answers. We know that that team that was watching Koberger as he crisscrossed the country to go back home 2,500 miles from Idaho to the Poconos with his dad and the Elantra in question, they had two tasks. One, to keep eyes on Koberger So the moment that arrest warrant issued, they could affect an arrest when the time was right. This is what was called a highly at risk arrest. It's called a dynamic

entry. When the person you're going to arrest could really do anything, you got to be ready. Keep eyes on him and to secure DNA. Okay. And this is how they did it. We learned from the affidavit. They watched Brian Koberger at his parents' Pennsylvania home. They saw him leave the home. Did you know this Jack and Sid? They see him leave the home around 4 a.m. in the dark of the night taking out the trash. Now, I took out the trash this morning at 5 a.m., but that's just me. But here's the kicker. I didn't put it in the neighbor's dumpster. He did. He took the family trash to the neighbors and put the trash in their trash can. He also put some in their own trash can later. So, why would he do that? Well, of course, they went right over there and got it out.

And guess what, C.C. Moore? It proves that the DNA on the snap button of that knife hilt, the DNA found there, the male DNA, compared to the trash from the Koberger family home, all the male population of the world is excluded to 99.9998%. Could you explain that, Cece? Yes. So these are numbers, as you know, that we see in court. This is court admissible evidence, but it is also what we see in traditional paternity

tests. So anytime someone is taking a paternity test, they're doing the exact same type of comparison that they did here. And those are the numbers that are court admissible in those cases as well when you're trying to establish paternity. But that is not the final step. Once they have gotten that DNA to that crime lab, realized, okay, this is a male DNA, but it's not our suspect.

This is the father of our suspect. The next step would be after they get that warrant for arrest and they get Brian in custody, they want to get his DNA directly from him. That is going to be the final step of the DNA testing and evidence. And once they get that exact match from Brian, they're going to have numbers similar to what they quoted for that paternity test certainty. And then that will be set aside. So we're seeing multiple steps of the DNA testing here, getting closer and closer, and the noose is tightening. C.C. Moore, you're the brilliant genetic genealogist. There's got to be a better way

to say it than I said it, because I had a really lengthy, circuitous sentence to try to explain this stat. What I'm trying trying to say and i would have to work on this before i went to a jury jack absolutely i'm trying to say that it's 99.9998 to one that this dna comes from anybody but the killer's bio dad. What's an easy way to say that? You're never going to hear them say 100%. That's just not how the scientists present this type of evidence. They're saying he cannot be excluded as the father or the parent of the suspect

or of the person who left the DNA behind at the crime scene. And so these numbers are astronomical. Like you said, it is greater than the number of people in the whole world many times over. And so it's just their way of explaining the level of confidence that they have in this. But it is not going to be what it will be used in court eventually. That's all they needed to get this arrest done. And they may have more DNA evidence that they just didn't list in the affidavit because it wasn't necessary. As you said, they're just going to lay out what they need to get that next step without showing all their cards immediately.

Joining me also, Brian Fitzgibbon, VP Operations, USPA Nationwide Security. Brian, I want you to hear something. It ups the creepy factor, if that's even possible. Take a listen to our cut 247, Sebastian Robertson. The suspect's phone was used at least a dozen a dozen times near the suspect's home ahead of the murders and notably investigators say the phone was turned off at the time of the killings it's obviously an emotional time for the family seeing the defendant for the first time um this is the beginning of the criminal justice system and the family will be here for the long

haul the suspect's phone was used at least and i and i emphasize at least 12 times near the victim's home beginning back in june up until november 13 the day of the murders. Can you just imagine that, Fitzgibbons? Well, I'll tell you, Nancy, it's similar to him leaving behind the sheath. That data exhaust from these 12 trips that he took to the murder site previously that they were able to obtain through that historical cell site location information is going to be a key part of this case. And it's important for everybody to know that that cellular analysis survey team that the FBI has, that data that they have is very precise, very accurate.

That look back period where they're able to see Kohlberger's phone in the vicinity of the King Road residence is going to be tremendously impactful as this thing moves forward. Joining me in addition to Laura Engel, Cheryl McCollum, Joe Scott, Brian Fitzgibbons. Joining me right now, Chris and CeCe Moore. Chris McDonough is with us, director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective. I found him on a YouTube channel, The Interview Room. Chris McDonough, I want to go to you because you've carefully examined all around the victim's King Road home.

What do you make of what Laura Engel is telling us about the possibility that roommate DM Dylan Morgenson was on the second floor? And what do you make of the defendant being around their perimeter 12 times at very odd times of the day and night and uh significantly jack is that he has his cell phone on all the time except he turns it off a couple hours at the time of the murder or puts it on airplane mode i love it when they do that jump in well a couple things jump out uh nancy right away is his undergraduate degree is in psychology and cloud-based forensics. So, and he was signing up for an internship with the local PD to teach him about how to avoid, you know, how criminals avoid detection in that. Something else that is really bothering me is the fact that the police have now identified this

homicide goes down between 4 a.m. and 425 a.m. The fact that these 12 contacts, which we would call pre-incident behaviors, occur through the cell phone analysis is exactly what we've been talking about here on this panel and your show, Nancy, is this guy spent a lot of time taking a look at his target set. And that brings me then to Dylan. She, this little, this child, there's one part of the affidavit that just stuck out to me, where the officer says she stood in a frozen shock phase. What that told me, writing many affidavits through my career, is this is just the tip of the iceberg, and we're going to get those explanations as to why there was a delay, as well as the hideous statement by the suspect that she hears,

it's okay, I'm going to help you. I did the little boy in Southern California in 1998, Matthew checking the bathroom. The suspect stood behind him and says, you know me, I'm here to kill you. I got chills when I read this statement from this witness, because I can only imagine the shock, the fear, the terror in her mind. And then later to find out there's a footprint at her bedroom door from this suspect. So did he come back in after she closed the door to finish the deal or get the sheet that he left behind on the third floor? Something you said, Chris McDonough, I think many of these victims were very sheltered. This was the first time they had lived away from home.

And when she says, I was in a frozen shock state, you refer to a case I know very well, the case of a little boy in California named Matthew Checke. As I recall, he was about nine years old and he was at a family picnic, reunion sort of deal on the ocean. And he wanted to go to the bathroom and his aunt said, oh, I'll go. And they went to the public bathroom. Everything was fine. And the aunt stood outside the door. And in those few moments, a guy goes in and slashes Matthew's neck. Just never had met him.

Didn't know anything about him. Just went in and murdered him. Matthew Checkey. Straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, everyone is screaming the PC doesn't show the motive. Well, it doesn't have to, number one. And number two, that is not the state's burden to figure out. Wow. Why would you do such a thing? We could talk about that at the water cooler. The state's duty is to get the right

person in the right jurisdiction and try them according to the Constitution and get a true verdict. That is the state's duty. They're not shrinks. But while we're on it, what do you think? I'm beginning to wonder at this.

You know, he would do these odd experiments, questionnaires. And this was just another one of his bizarre experiments with human guinea pigs. Or was he so immersed in the world of murder that it consumed him? I think you just explained the whole motivation right there. He was immersed in the world of murder that it consumed him. I think you just explained the whole motivation right there. He was immersed in the world of murder. But let me roll out one simple fact here. There are eight factors that are associated with serial killers. When you look at their history, you know, childhood abuse and neglect, torturing animals,

I could go on and on. But one factor is voyeurism. Almost all serial killers stalk their victims, and they are voyeurs, meaning they're like peeping Toms. And they don't just look and, you know, scroll TikTok and Instagram, they look and masturbate, Nancy, let's just be honest here. They are in a sexual frenzy while they are stalking their victims. That is it right there. So the crime began last June. It wasn't just when he was plunging a knife into his victims. That was just the, I don't know, the cherry on the ice cream sundae right there. The crime started in June when he selected these four victims.

Victim selection is so important to serial killers. That's where the excitement is. Watching, stalking, looking, masturbating, peeping, learning everything about the victims, inserting themselves into their crime. And it was during this time that he put out these strange, odd questionnaires, you know, wondering, you know, asking even a prison population, you know, what were you thinking before, during, after the crime? How did you engage in victim selection? Because he was engaging in victim selection. we might find semen at the crime. I think what we're going to find is all the sexual activity and motivation occurred before the crime. And then killing them was just like the final coup de grace. That was the end of it. So this is a sad thing about this case is the crime went on

for months and months and months. And there was no way to detect it, and there was no way to have detected it. We're just putting the pieces together after the fact. And just a quick comment about the poor roommate who saw him with the, you know, the bushy eyebrows and the athletic build. Yes, she's just a child. She had no idea. She didn't know what we know now. She had no way to put the pieces together. She's just a little girl who shut her door and was used to people coming in and out of that house. Because remember, this is a college town, you know, so kids come in all hours of the day or night partying and even just sitting up on their beds and talking. And yes, she was scared, but it was four in the morning. Of course, she locked the door and went to bed.

That is no surprise. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. With me, high-profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, former FBI agent Dale Carson at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale, I want you to take a listen to Judge Megan Marshall, the Lata County Magistrate in our cut 250A. Count two alleges that you committed the felony offense of murder in the first degree. It alleges that the defendant, Ryan C. Koberger, on or about November 13, 2022, in Langtock County, state of Idaho, did willfully, unlawfully, deliberately, with premeditation and with malice of forethought, kill and murder Madison Mogan, a human being, by stabbing Madison Mogan from which she died in violation of item code 18-4001, 4002, 4003, and 4004. The maximum penalty

for this offense, if you were to plead guilty or be found guilty, is death or imprisonment for life. Do you understand? Yes. To Adele Carson, I don't know if you've ever worked in any death penalty cases, but the law is very clear based on case precedent. It's not in the Constitution, but it is a result of the Sixth Amendment right to counsel, when you have a death penalty case and you are selecting your defense team, the defense team, if the state is appointing lawyers, has to be made up of at least one, if not more, death penalty qualified lawyers.

Explain. Those lawyers are specially trained to deal with these kinds of cases, and they have very thorough training. It takes probably a year and a half of additional training in order to represent people charged with a capital offense, an offense that could end up in the death penalty. And these cases take quite a while to pursue and prosecute. And the defense team also has the same requirement. So this is something if he in fact goes to trial and he's not given a deal to plead to life instead of the death penalty, then the result could well be that the trial will take a number of years to process. I don't know if it's going to take a number of years,

but I could easily see it taking a year. Remember, this is Idaho, not California or New York. This case is going to go to trial. COVID is not a threat at this juncture anyway to striking a jury. COVID has put the skids on jury selection for years now, but we're in a different phase. Jurors are being called to the courthouse. We're not on hold because of COVID. Another thing, take a listen to Our Cut 251. Again, this is Judge Marshall speaking. And Mr. Kohlberger, would you like to represent yourself, hire a lawyer, or see if you qualify for court-appointed counsel?

I have court-appointed counsel. Court has reviewed your application for attorney at public expense. I do find that you are indigent and do qualify for court-appointed counsel. I will appoint Ms. Taylor to represent you in this case. So you may wonder where all your tax dollars go to people like Brian Koberger. We're going to pay for his death penalty defense team. Now, before he even left Pennsylvania, a defense lawyer was in place for him, and it is defense attorney Ann Taylor.

Now, what Dale Carson said is absolutely correct to achieve further death penalty qualifications to defend or prosecute a case like that the most common way of getting that training is to sit a second or third chair when another lawyer that's qualified tries a dp case death penalty case um i'm pretty sure if you could check it, Sid, that the mode of death will be the needle in Idaho death by lethal injection. Straight back out to Laura Engel, senior correspondent joining us from Fox News. Laura, again, thank you for being with us. Laura, what do you believe will happen next? Well, you know, his bail was denied in that court hearing and then he'll he'll make his next appearance on the 12th of this month so that is the next time we expect him back in court

and as we continue to pour over this affidavit not only the probable cause affidavit when you go back and you look at that indiana state Police body cam footage of when he was stopped, and we've seen it, we can't help but study it because we hear him and we see him. And if you look closely at one of those traffic stops by the Indiana State Police as he was traveling with his father from the state of Washington to Pennsylvania, where we were camped out outside of the jail where he was held. You can't help but notice there is a mark on his right wrist. And we've looked at that closely.

It looks fresh, so I don't know what that means. But, you know, that is another clue. His demeanor, his voice, that is something that will be, of course, heavily analyzed by law enforcement and by all of us. Joe Scott Morgan joining me, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, we also learned that the defendant, Koberger, thoroughly cleaned his car on multiple occasions. He was watched doing it.

You think he got rid of all the evidence? If so, why? And if not, why? No, absolutely not. There's no way. I don't care how much he thinks he cleaned it. He did not do a sufficient job compared to what they're doing to it in the garage right now at probably the FBI in Pennsylvania at one of their evidence collection sites. They're taking this car apart, literally. They're taking the seats out, carpet, headliner, everything. And they're going in with every possible agent that they have at their disposal. And I don't mean FBI agents. I'm talking about chemicals that they can place. We're talking about Luminol, maybe Blue Star. They're also going through here with probably evidence vacuums as well,

which goes down to a different strata can pull things up that this guy would have missed. And to you, Cece Moore, joining us, Chief Genetic Genealogist at Parabon Nano Labs, what's the best way, and I'm not saying it's going to work, but what do you expect to be the attack by the defense on the DNA? Well, you know, they're not going to use anything that was found from investigative genetic genealogy if that is still in play. I think it is. I think they just left it out of the affidavit because it was just a lead generator. It's not evidence.

So they're going to focus on those astronomical numbers that you mentioned. They're going to say this DNA on this sheath or whatever else they may have in their evidence from DNA is from this person. And the stats will be something like one in 300 trillion chance. And then maybe they'll find some of the victim's dna and all that work that they are doing on his car i'm saying how is the defense going to attack the dna analysis well the defense is going to have a difficult time with all of this evidence adding up come on cc put it out there they're're going to have to pull an OJ. They're going to have to come up with some crazy theory that the blood was planted, that it was tampered with, that it has been somehow compromised. That's the only way.

You can't fight with one in 300 trillion. Well, that could have been placed there. Oh, there we go. See? Didn't take long. You know what, CeCe Moore? I shouldn't have asked you that question because in order to catch a varmint, you've got to think like a varmint, and you just don't think like a defense lawyer.

All right, so let's talk about what a type of DNA on that sheet. In a nutshell, nutshell. It's T. That DNA is likely to be touch DNA. A few skin cells, and they're going to say it could have been transferred, it could have been there. It could have been there for a different reason. And it doesn't necessarily place him at the crime scene. You know, Cece, I only hope that's what they argue.

They're going to say this was a party house and kids were coming in and out all the time. And Koberger was likely a guest that or just some random person that came into party with the kids. And that's when the DNA was left. On a knife. Okay. See, I hope that's what they argue. Brian Fitzgibbon's with us, VP of Operations at USPA, Nationwide Security. Brian, I'm just trying to, you know, if you want to win, you don't just put your case up. You lay awake at night and you think, what are they going to do? How are they going to try to attack me? And you go through each witness and each piece of evidence with a fine tooth comb and you

figure out, what's my problem? Where's my crack? How can I shoot them down before they can kill me? Hey, I don't know if you remember. Do you remember Reagan came up with the Star Wars defense, how we're going to shoot down missiles that are coming toward the U.S.? And everybody at the time thought, wow, impossible. It is possible. And this is how you win a trial.

You shoot them down before they can torpedo you. What is the defense going to do, Brian? I think one of the pieces that they're going to attack is the cell phone data um not not all cell phone data is created equal um i i think in this case you know there was definitely a flex in the affidavit showing that fbi team uh involved here and the precise locations they were able to grab uh Koberger in that historical data. But that's a definite that they will attack that in the past, certainly in some high-profile cases in the past.

Cell phone data can be misleading. So I think that there's definitely going to be an attack on that. Oh, yeah, you're right, Brian Fitzgibbons. They're going to be all over that cell phone data. We wait as this case unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.