Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Jeffrey Epstein victims speak out! Will co-conspirators be brought to justice?

Episode Date: November 5, 2019

Jeffrey Epstein's accusers continue their calls for justice! Victims of Epstein's alleged sexual assaults claim his ex-girlfriend, Ghislaine Maxwell, was a co-conspirator in his devious plans.Joining Nancy Grace to discuss the case: Ashley Wilcott: Judge and Trial Attorney Steve Lampley: Former Detective & Author of "I Was The Girl" detailing his time uncover during online underage sex stings. Sheryl McCollum: Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Director Dr. Brian Russell : Psychologist, Lawyer, & Host of "Fatal Vows" on Investigation Discovery  Levi Page: Investigative Journalist, CrimeOnline Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Multimillionaire Jeffrey Epstein, a renowned businessman, traveled in the most elite circles. Presidents like Clinton and Trump, even Prince Andrew, were in his phone and address book. But now, his alleged sex crime victims literally protesting on his front steps. True, Epstein found with his neck snapped, hanging inside a New York jailhouse. But what about his henchpeople, his alleged accomplices, his pimps, so to speak. When you say the word pimp, you conjure up images of creepy guys on the street. Not so in this case.

As a matter of fact, reportedly, his main confidant, his main alleged co-perpetrator, is a beautiful aristocrat, Ghislaine Maxwell. So where is she? And will there be charges against her? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and I want justice. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. This is video of Jeffrey Epstein's home taken by investigators during a search of the multimillionaire's Palm Beach mansion. It is where Epstein was involved with at least 40 underage girls, some of whom he had sex with, according

to court filings obtained by NBC News. Several of his accusers speaking out for the first time to the Miami Herald. I was 16. I was 16. I started going to him when I was like 14, 15, 14 turning 15. A report from the Palm Beach Police Department alleges the girls were promised money in exchange for massages and that a female who recruited young teens for the tycoon allegedly told one victim, the more you do, the more you get paid. He just laid down in his towel on his stomach and he was just talking to people on the phone. When he flipped over, that's when he said, okay, you can go ahead and take off your shirt and pants. The accounts include accusations from indecent exposure to inappropriate touching to rape.

Wow. Okay. And keep in mind, Jeffrey Epstein, a multi-multi-millionaire with connections as high up as Bill and Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, and a frequent visitor with Prince Andrew. It ain't over yet. You were just hearing our friend at NBC, that was Stephanie Gosk, reporting the very latest in the last hours we now learned that a teen girl is saying that Epstein arranged a group a group sex encounter with her and Prince Andrew. Andrew now being haunted over his ties with the disgraced millionaire Jeffrey Epstein. Huge, huge explosive documentary has just aired in the UK including claims about this, let me just say, group sex encounter also known as an orgy. You know, it just seems to never end with this guy. With me, an all-star panel, judge, trial lawyer, host at Court TV, AshleyWilcott.com, Steve Lampley, detective, author of I Was the Girl,

about his time undercover, Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Dr. Brian Russell, psychologist and lawyer, host of Investigation Discovery's hit series, Fatal Vows Just Renewed Again. Right now, to CrimeOnline.com investigative journalist, Levi Page. Levi, it never ends with Epstein. You know, we were just listening to our friend at NBC, Stephanie Goss, describing Palm Beach. When he was, quote, in jail down in Florida, he would get day passes and be out of the jail 12, 17 hours, and he would have a stream of young girls coming in and out of his, quote,

office. And then amazingly, now that we're investigating it, that visitor's log has disappeared. Funny how that works, right? What's the latest? As you mentioned, Nancy, Prince Andrew, the son of Queen Elizabeth, is accused by a woman by the name of Virginia Guffrey of being an accomplice of Epstein, involved in this sex trafficking of women and children. And Guffrey claims that she was forced to have sex with Prince Andrew at multiple estates of Jeffrey Epstein at least three times. She worked at Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago when she was a teenager as a spa attendant, and that is when she claims that Epstein recruited her into his sex trafficking schemes. And Prince Andrew has denied these claims, but we do know that there's a photo of him with his arm around Guthrie at the estate that Epstein owned in the U.S. Virgin Islands. Actually, it was a private island that he actually owned.

Excuse me, you mean Orgy Island? Is that what you're talking about? Okay, hold right there, right there, because I've got to go to Cheryl McCollum on this. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, and I'll follow up with our other guests. How many cases have we worked? I mean, between us, maybe literally when I count up a hundred new cases every week on the arraignment and plea and trial calendar, let's say a month times, okay, that's four. So that's 400 a month roughly times 12 months a year times 10 years that's me so that's well up into

the thousands and thousands and thousands and you lord knows you're still on it you know have you seen that picture this is what i'm coming to in a roundabout way uh prince andrew with his arm around the tin girl he looks looks guilty. He looks guilty. I can't help it. Brian Russell's going to have a field day with me after I say this. But he looks like, oh, uh-oh, you're taking my picture. Fake smile. Here's the great thing about that photograph for me, Nancy.

A picture is worth a thousand words, and it makes it impossible for him to ever say, hey, I never met her. Of course you did. It's right there on the crow to crow money Cheryl can we just enlighten everybody that doesn't already know this let's just talk about a rape case okay first of all first of all here's the defense it never happened I don't even know her I've never even met her oh okay well here's some surveillance video of you guys walking along let's just say third avenue together in new york oh okay i remember her because she walked up to me and asked for directions and i was just walking along the street telling her directions oh well guess what we also have surveillance video of you

coming out of an apartment where there was a party that night you guys reportedly left the party together you were at the party together and you gave her a drink oh was she at that party that's the next defense yes yes okay yes she was at the party and I gave her a walk home and she was asking directions see how it's adding to the story then the next thing is well we we also have a witness a doorman that says you came in her building that night was that her building okay yeah i came to the lobby but i didn't go up i did not go well the elevator surveillance shows you on the elevator going up you know what i think i did walk her to her door and then it goes okay we didn't have sex okay we did have sex because now my dna is on her clothes and her body. But, okay, we did have sex, but it was consensual.

And that's where the trial—we go through so many permutations before we get to consensual sex. That's how this is going to roll out, Cheryl. That's exactly how it's going to roll out. That is the best defense for rape that there is. It was consensual. If she's injured, it's because she likes it rough. That's what they're going to say, no matter what. No matter what.

To Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer at AshleyWilcott.com and anchor at Court TV. Ashley, you've seen it play out a million times. Yeah, it does play out a million times. And when there's smoke, there's fire. And let's just say with Epstein, there's been a whole lot of that. But let me point this out. Not only do I agree that the picture's worth a thousand words, also you have to keep in mind, Nancy, they actually have obtained allegedly medical records that do appear to support her claims of abuse. Now, I want to go to you on

that Levi page. What about medical records? In 2001, Nancy, she says that she went to the hospital and went through a medical examination and that she had injuries to her vagina. Okay, guys, will that prove it? How was that related in time and space to the night that photo was taken with Prince Andrew? Take a listen to this. Our friend at NBC, Stephanie Goff. Virginia Roberts Jufri tells a similar story, which she has described in court paperwork, of grooming and intimidation at the hands of Epstein and his inner circle. She says Epstein not only sexually abused her, but directed her to have sex with

other powerful men, including Britain's Prince Andrew. Jufri says she was 17 when this photo was taken with the prince. she says he abused her telling savannah he wasn't rude or anything about it he said you know thank you and some kind of soft sentiments like that and left crime stories with nancy grace buckingham palace tells nbc news in a statement it is emphatically denied that the duke of york had any form of sexual contact or relationship with Virginia Roberts. Any claim to the contrary is false and without foundation. Prince Andrew has repeatedly denied Giuffre's allegations.

After Epstein's death, telling NBC News, at no stage during the limited time I spent with him did I see, witness, or suspect any behavior of the sort that subsequently led to his arrest and conviction. Okay, that's from our friends at NBC. Okay, I'm ready. I'm braced. I've got my shield. I've got on a helmet. I've got my sword because I'm unleashing Dr. Brian Russell, psychologist, lawyer, host of Investigation Discovery's hit series, Fatal Vows, just renewed again because everybody loves it so much.

Dr. Brian Russell, I know you're going to give me H-E-L-L for saying he looks guilty, but can I just throw this one curveball at you before you tell me how I can't look at somebody and tell their line, which is totally possible. Did you know, Dr. Russell, that Jeffrey Epstein, the prince of preteen sex, Jeffrey Epstein had not one, not two, but 13 different numbers for Prince Andrew. Now, I got to tell you something, Dr. Brian Russell. If my husband came home and I found a secret cell phone in his pocket, his pocket, the cell phone, and I'm not going to tell you what else, would be burned in the front yard and I'd be stirring it with a stick. Okay.

A secret cell phone. 13 phone numbers. Okay. You want to tell me there's not something hinky about that. About having 13 phone numbers? Yes. For one person. Yes. That is h hinky even for the prince

and and do we know that these were all 13 phone numbers that went to him or is this you know assistant number one's phone number and driver number one's phone number and driver number two and assistant number three i mean all i know is that this was revealed in a documentary titled The Prince and the Pedophile that aired in the UK. A detailed address book obtained by PIs like Steve Lampley searching Epstein's home shows that Epstein had 13 different numbers for Prince Andrew covering several different ways for Epstein to get a hold of him. That's not normal, Dr. Russell. I think he must be guilty. Oh, stop it. I'm changing my, I'm changing my story. He's got to be guilty. He's got a bunch of cell phone numbers. Well, I have two for you and one I think is old. Now, you know what? I can see you're not, you are not going to tell me what you really think about this,

because you're going on this crazy thing called rationality. Cheryl McCollum, 13 numbers. He's got some burner phones. He doesn't want it retraced back to him. It's pretty clear to me we also know that epstein and prince andrew met at least 10 times between 98 and 2010 that's at least we have no idea how many times influential men such as prince andrew bill clinton who knows who else, flew to Orgy Island because that was all by private jet. And now to Steve Lampley, detective, author of I Was the Girl, and that's about his

time undercover posing as a 14-year-old girl identifying online predators. Yes. Steve Lampley, what does it say to you when a man has 13 different numbers so a millionaire pimp like Jeffrey Epstein can reach him? All loved up with a teen girl. Nancy, there's so much. All of this so far is circumstantial, of course, but 13 phone numbers, really? I mean, come on. I don't care who they're

to. I don't care if they're to 13 assistants. Why does he need all 13 phone numbers, Nancy? That's crazy. And there's a lot of shuffling going on in this case. All these victims, all these supposed suspects, all these people that say they were there, and nobody knows anything. It's amazing, Nancy. It's amazing how nobody knows a darn thing. Friends interviewed in the documentary say that Andrew Stay with Epstein many times saw young girls in their entourage between around 16 many of them quote

foreign I don't know what that means now one journalist named Annette Witheridge staked out Epstein's Manhattan home when Andrew visit him postprison. What is a prince doing with a pedophile that just got out of prison for underage sex, which is a felony? That was back in 2009, and Annette Witheridge, who staked it out and has photos, said that there were girls, girls, girls leaving and entering Epstein's place while Andrew was there. The picture becomes more and more bleak. Now, we've been told, Cheryl McCollum, that Andrew doesn't really drink alcohol too much, doesn't drug, doesn't gamble, that his thing is pure unbridled sex, which is one of the reasons his marriage with Fergie didn't work out. We are also learning that according to hospital records, Roberts, the young, the teen girl, suffered vaginal bleeding for, quote, weeks following encounters with Epstein abusers.

Now, that was not linked to any encounter with Prince Andrew, the bleeding. What do you make of it, Cheryl? Nancy, I usually start a case very elementary, as you know. And so, like, if I go to a party with you and I'm sitting with a majority of your buddies, they're attorneys. If I'm sitting with my sister Charlene and her friends, the majority are flight attendants and nurses. Bill Clinton was accused of rape. Epstein was accused of rape. Prince Andrew is obviously being accused of all types of sexual crimes, leaving victims injured that are all underage.

So this, to me, birds of a feather, it's really true. If the majority of your friends smoke weed, you smoke weed. I mean, your grandmama was right about this one. So if you look at that inner circle, they are sexual predators. What do you mean my grandmother was right about this one. So if you look at that inner circle, they are sexual predators. What do you mean my grandmother was right? I mean, she was right about everything, except that she did say my uterus was going to fall out on Bevan Drive if I didn't quit jogging. That never happened. Okay. But there were many times I thought it could happen because she had me so scared thank you mama for putting that in my head and i'd like to point out that i opened up a chapter in my new

book coming out in february don't be a victim with her prophetic words yours was gonna fall out but what what what did she say that is now coming true which thing together i mean who you surround yourself with is who you really are so epstein wasn't hanging out with preachers he was hanging out with predators okay you're bringing back a memory of all the closing arguments when i would bring on dopers and hookers and whoever as witnesses. And I would tell the jury right up front, who do you think the defendant is hanging out with? Nuns and priests and virgins? No, he's hanging out with this bunch.

And that's why they're witnesses in this case. I guess I better quit hanging out with you and Ashley and Jackie Howard. Hey, take a listen to our friends at NBC. They stayed silent. I'm just not going to say anything because that's what he told me to do. I didn't want to say that I'd been part of something that I felt shame. Six women speaking out to Savannah, saying they were all sexually abused by Jeffrey Epstein. By the time I was being raped, it was too late. Anushka DeGiorgio now sharing her story for the first time on television.

She was a teenage model from a well-off family in London when she says she met the wealthy financier. I was involved in that kind of lifestyle growing up and so I thought I could cope and I thought I could handle it. She says the abuse lasted several years. When Jeffrey would see me he would physically shake because he wanted to get at me. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The then underage girls say they were lured by the cash. My mother was on drugs at the time and she couldn't provide for me and I was pretty much homeless. Former Palm Beach Police Chief Michael Ryder says many of the girls didn't know each other but had the same story. We believe that this would end up in a prosecution

that would incarcerate Mr. Epstein for the remainder of his life. Federal prosecutors even had a 53-page indictment ready to go, according to a court filing. But Epstein, a hedge fund manager who famously palled around with Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, and Prince Andrew, never faced those serious charges. Instead, a plea deal was struck. He pleaded guilty to two counts related to solicitation of prostitution and only served 13 months in a county jail. Wow, you're hearing our friends at NBC. That was Stephanie Gosk. Two counts of solicitation and Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. How long did he do, 13 months?

Thirteen months in Florida, and that actually led to the resignation for the Secretary of Labor, who was the prosecutor that oversaw the plea deal. He worked in the Trump administration. And that was uncovered by the Miami Herald, great investigative journalism on their part. You know, it's amazing and a sad note when the press, the papers have to do the work for law enforcement. And it was during those 13 months in a Florida jailhouse that he would get unfettered freedom. He would leave in a chauffeured car in the morning and go to his, quote, office and stay there till the evening.

And during that time at his, quote, office, there would be a string, a parade of young girls in and out, in and out of his office. Take a listen. Speaking of that, stephanie and he arranged it so that he got work release which meant that he had a valet a driver that he hired pick him up at the jail every day and essentially drive him to an office the former u.s attorney who approved the deal alexander acosta is now president trump's secretary of Labor and a possible pick for Attorney General. A Labor Department spokesperson tells NBC News that the U.S. Attorney's Office defended the deal across three administrations and pointed out that Secretary Acosta was asked about the plea deal during his confirmation hearing last year. Professionals within a prosecutor's office decide that a plea that guarantees that someone

goes to jail, that guarantees that someone register generally, and that guarantees other outcomes is a good thing. The former Palm Beach police chief disagrees. I think almost the entire system failed them. Don't worry. Acosta stepped down, and there is no way he's going to be the U.S. Attorney General. That ain't going to happen. Now, how did Epstein get this far with neither him nor his cohorts really doing hard jail time? Listen. The 2008 agreement protects Epstein and anyone who worked with him from federal charges. He is a registered sex offender, but can travel freely to homes in New York, Florida and the Caribbean. Alleged victims are now fighting to get Epstein's deal

thrown out. Emboldened by the Me Too movement, they want their stories heard. Just such shocking allegations and the fact that even when he was in prison, he was free to go, but now we're wondering, like, does he have anything to say about all this? He has been silent. Guys, this is how it worked. Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer, anchor at Court TV,

and you can find her at ashleywilcott.com. Ashley, as I understand it, and it's very, very complicated, as you might expect, with all these influential men involved, or allegedly involved, is that the plea deal was really kind of under the table. The victims knew nothing about the deal going down. And it essentially gave Epstein complete freedom. And in the future, under the deal, Epstein or any of his co-workers or

cohorts could ever be prosecuted. That was the deal. And that's what's ridiculous and a travesty. That's not how our justice system is supposed to work. As you well know, Nancy, the victims, their rights, they have got to be taken into account. They should be well aware of what the state is thinking or how they're choosing to proceed with the defendant, first of all. Second of all, it shouldn't be under the table. And third of all, it should absolutely have nothing to do with your wealth or your power or your position. And in this case, that's all it was about. I don't know if you're familiar with the name Ghislaine Maxwell, but Ghislaine Maxwell basically served as Epstein's pimp, according to reports.

Epstein and his associate, Ghislaine Maxwell, got privileged access all the way to Sandringham, the royal residence in Norfolk, England, as well as an invitation to Queen Elizabeth's Dance of the Decades party. Now, she, Ghislaine Maxwell, was a socialite. as an invitation to Queen Elizabeth's Dance of the Decades party. Now, she, Ghislaine Maxwell, was a socialite. She was the daughter of a press media baron, Robert Maxwell. Epstein was relatively unknown to the British press at that time. That was all the way back before 2000. But she got him connected.

Where is Jeffrey Epstein's former girlfriend? She's vanished following allegations that she recruited underage girls for Epstein's sex trafficking network. Ghislaine Maxwell, who has denied any wrongdoing, lived in this five-story townhouse on Manhattan's Tony Eats side. It's less than a 10-minute walk from Epstein's palatial mansion, but she sold the home for $15 million after she got caught up in the Epstein case

and moved to London. So where is she now? Nobody knows, but she's believed to be somewhere in Europe. She was in London for a while and in Paris, but recently she hasn't been seen in either country. If I were to take a guess, I would guess that she is in Russia because it is a country that could not extradite her

to the United States. Maxwell was once at the pinnacle of the social scene in New York City. She was with Epstein, Donald Trump, and Melania at this party at Mar-a-Lago in 2000. That's her hovering in the background in this notorious video as Trump and Epstein crack each other up at another Mar-a-Lago bash. In 2014, she was spotted with entrepreneur Elon Musk at the Vanity Fair Oscar party. Wow, you're hearing our friends at Inside Edition. The latest I've heard

to Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative journalist, is that she was at a resort in Brazil. I don't know where Jelaine Maxwell could be right now, but I do know this., she claims that Ghislaine Maxwell was the one that told at her home in London. So she is connected in a lot of these cases that we keep hearing about. Take a listen to our friend Holly Williams at CBS. Ghislaine Maxwell grew up the daughter of a wealthy British media tycoon and studied at prestigious Oxford University before becoming a close associate of Jeffrey Epstein. Her current whereabouts are unknown. Documents unsealed on Friday contain allegations that Ghislaine Maxwell played a, quote,

important role in Jeffrey Epstein's sexual abuse ring, directing an underage girl to have sex with Epstein and others. Maxwell strenuously denies those allegations. Jack Scarola is an attorney who's represented several alleged victims of Jeffrey Epstein. There are multiple victims who claim that Ghazane Maxwell was a personal participant in recruiting them for Jeffrey

Epstein. And there are allegations that Ms. Maxwell was an active participant in the sexual abuse. Straight out to Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. How can we bring Ghelaine Maxwell to justice? I think finding more and more victims is going to be important and tracking her down, which is going to be the hard part, and then extraditing her. But, Nancy, let's do some simple math like you did earlier. Jeffrey Epstein was 66 when he died.

Let's just say at 14 or 16 years old is when he started, you know, inappropriately touching, grabbing, groping, whatever, females. That's 46 years he had to harm people. Now, we're only looking at when he got to the level that he was not trying to hide it. He was throwing parties. He was recruiting. So if you take one victim a month, that's over 500. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Trying to figure out why somebody like Jelaine Maxwell would have anything to do with Epstein, a millionaire pedophile. We know that she was born in Maison Lafitte, France, the youngest child of a media tycoon, Robert Maxwell. She moved to New York after her father's death and socialized with rich and famous people. In the 90s, she started a relationship with Epstein and stayed close, extremely close to him for decades after that.

She has now been accused of being a pimp for Jeffrey Epstein. And this is according to U.S. court documents. I'm talking about 2,000 pages of a lawsuit that were released in a defamation case involving Virginia Roberts Guthrie, who claimed that Epstein set her up to sleep with, and Ghislaine Maxwell, with Prince Andrew. Another court document describes an alleged sex encounter between an underage girl and Prince Andrew in a bathtub.

I mean, it goes on and on. Did this woman, Jelaine Maxwell, act as a pimp for Epstein? Did Dr. Brian Russell, psychologist, lawyer, host of Investigation Discovery's hit series, Fatal Vows. Brian, why would someone like Jelaine Maxwell get tangled up with Epstein? He's a pedophile. First, I wanted to make sure we just get the terminology right. I don't think he was a pedophile. Pedophile is sexual attraction to prepubescent kids. Sexual attraction to somebody who's gone through puberty, even if they're under the legal age of consent, is not pedophilia, just for anybody who's interested. Why would Ghislaine Maxwell be involved?

Well, we don't know if she was involved. If she was involved, yeah, it's very bizarre because she didn't have any need for Epstein's money or anything. She had her own money and she was her own. She was a socialite in her own right. She didn't need him to travel in the high dollar circles. So, you know, other than some kind of fetish that she had herself for young girls, it's hard to imagine what the motivation would have been if she was involved in all this. You know, I listened to all this, and I just think I'm as tough on crime as anybody is. But when you have these allegations that are decades old, you know, I just sometimes think,

gosh, am I the only one here who's concerned about reasonable doubt and the presumption of innocence of these people? You know. OK, hold on just a moment, Dr. Russell. These are not accusations. He pled guilty to this. He pled guilty in a court of law for soliciting women, young girls that were teens.

These are not... She didn't. Ghislaine hasn't pled guilty to anything. He did. I mean, we're talking about somebody who said we have to bring Ghislaine to justice. Numerous witnesses. We don't know that she did anything. Recruited the young girls, even documenting in 2,000 pages of court documents what Ghislaine Maxwell said to them in order to get them to engage in sex with Epstein and his friends.

Levi Page, let's try to help Dr. Brian Russell with his concerns. What do we know about Ghislaine Maxwell's part in Epstein's pedophile pimp scheme under the law pedophile means when an adult has sex with or is attracted to sexually a minor many of the alleged victims nancy would say that jelaine maxwell would recruit them to have sex with epstein and they did that, she would then recruit them and direct them to have sex with his powerful friends, and she would tell them, just do what you do to Jeffrey. That's what they are alleging, that she was sort of the middleman,

that she was his, like, basically employer in this sex scheme. That's all alleged, but don't you think it's very suspicious, Nancy, that instead of answering to these allegations, trying to clear her name, that she's gone, she can't be found, she left? To Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer, Court TV anchor, weigh in, Ashley. I, you know, presumption of innocence, I'm all for it. But again, I'm going to stand by my statement. When there's smoke, there's fire. And the thing that disturbs me the most about this case is the way in which the prosecutors, starting with Epstein, really were hiding the ball from the

public, from the victims, from everyone. And when you start that way, all it does is snowball into a big mess of the case where while you have the presumption of innocence, most likely they're involved at some level in this criminal activity. We are talking about the whereabouts of Jeffrey Epstein's alleged madam, his pimp, so to speak, Ghislaine Maxwell, to Steve Lampley, detective, author of I Was the Girl at stevelampley.com. Steve, help me figure out how she can be located and brought back. But she can't be brought back until there are formal charges against her. Well, Nancy, like Cheryl said, it's going to be tough.

You've got to locate her. She could be like where in the world is Carmen Santiago? Who knows? We'll have to locate her and, if possible, bring her back and maybe even place her. And I sort of reserve, sort of hesitate to even say this. My concern, given Epstein's demise, is somewhat for her concern for her safety. And I would say maybe bring her back under protective custody, but given the fact that we couldn't keep Jeffrey Epstein safe, I don't know that we could keep her safe.

But we're going to have to find her somewhere. What we are looking at are claims by multiple then-young girls, now-grown women, who say they were recruited as an underage hooker for Jeffrey Epstein and trafficked to other powerful men in his orbit. We also learned that, according to these victims, they say that Jelaine Maxwell trained them to find the, quote, youngest looking girls for Epstein. And as Levi Page pointed out earlier, the one main witness that they were hearing the most from is Virginia Roberts Guthrie. Guthrie says that she was working at Trump's Miralago when she meets Epstein. So explain to me exactly what the claims are, Levi Page, against Ghislaine Maxwell.

She's accused of being his basically recruiter. She would go and find women that she thought that Jeffrey Epstein allegedly would be attracted to, and she would introduce them to Jeffrey Epstein. A lot of this started off as massages. They were being paid to give him a massage, and then that's when the sexual abuse happened. They also alleged that she would then introduce them, these young women, to Jeffrey Epstein's powerful friends, such as allegedly Prince Andrew, and that they were abused by his powerful friends as well. So it's not just Jeffrey Epstein, it's other men that she was helping these women, if you can call it helping, get introduced to so they could be sexually abused. It's sick allegations. Well, also to you, Cheryl McCollum, and I don't know

how we would be able to prove this, if possible, the victim says that Jelaine Maxwell ordered her to perform sex acts on Epstein during their very first meeting promising that they would help her become a real masseuse and get a quote normal life but she Virginia says that soon she realized life revolved around the abuse. And then Maxwell trained her to recruit new girls for Epstein with the order that the younger, the better. Quote, you have to always go for the youngest looking ones. That is what she says Jelaine Maxwell told her. If this was my case, Nancy, I would start electronically. I would go through his computer, through every phone that he was ever associated with that we could locate,

what the text messages said, what the email said. Again, this was not a man that was hiding what he wanted. He was very clear. He sent, you know, messages about it. He had pornography of underage girls on his computer when they went through it. There's other evidence there. He kept a detailed book. Who keeps an address book anymore? But he did. So not only did he keep it, he kept every 13 phone number from Prince Andrew. So again, this is very clear to me it he kept every 13 phone number from prince andrew so again this is very clear to me that he gave us a roadmap they've just got to go find it back to dr brian russell uh investigation discoveries fatal vows he was concerned about reasonable doubt and the possible innocence of Jelaine Maxwell, what convinces me is not just the Virginia Guffries, but that many of Epstein's accusers separately allege Jelaine Maxwell served as

Epstein's madam to lure them into his operation. She, of course, has denied all the allegations. She has not yet been charged with a crime. But how can you insist on her innocence when you have multiple young girls separated in time and space pointing to her as his recruiter. I don't insist on her innocence or Prince Andrews. What I insist on is that I understand as a psychologist, there are many reasons why people who actually are sexually abused, they actually are victims of sex crimes, don't come right out right away and report it. I understand that. But if you're going to do that as a victim, what you have to understand is if you're going to wait 20 years to come forward, then you might not get justice because the chances are very high that after 20 years, there's going to be reasonable doubt because you're going to say, just let's use, for example, a different scenario, the Weinstein scenario.

Somebody says, 20 years ago, I went to Weinstein's office to talk about being in a movie, and he raped me there, and now I want justice about it. And Weinstein says, 20 years ago, she came to my office to talk about being in a movie. We had consensual sex. I didn't put her in the movie, And now she's saying I raped her there. I don't know how a juror goes into court and listens to those two stories and comes out and goes, I am 100% sure it went down

the way that the woman said. Okay, well, I'll tell you how that happens. That happens when you have corroborating evidence, such as the victim telling what we call an outcry witness, a friend, a parent, a boyfriend at the time, what happened? When you can look at support for the moment, for instance, a date book, something on someone's iPhone showing that the appointment occurred. When you can corroborate that an attendant, a receptionist, led the woman in there and then left her. There are many, many ways to corroborate a case like that, especially with similar

transactions. When you have 15, 20, 30 women all claiming, much as in like Bill Cosby, none of them knowing each other, all claiming the same type of scenario. I mean, in my mind, at least one of those stories has got to be true, just rationally speaking. And I want to go to you, Ashley Wolcott, judge and trial lawyer, the reality is that these women are all claiming the same thing. But Dr. Brian Russell brings up the point that why didn't they say something at the time? Well, maybe because they were underage teen girls with no education, a low socioeconomic standing, and they were going up against a multimillionaire and very powerful people. All of those things. So first of all, there's a pattern, like you already pointed out, Nancy,

in terms of what they're saying happened and occurred. That's significant. Number two, statistically, often victims of any type of sexual assault or sexual crime or sex grooming or sex trafficking do not disclose right at the time and say, oh, by the way, this is what happened to me for all the reasons you just raised and the shame and the guilt and the embarrassment and the 18 year old not fully developed brain, which we know scientifically to be true. Often they disclose down the road, not at the time. That's not unusual. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.