Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Jodi Arias argues Nancy Grace stole her fair trial! What does Nancy say?

Episode Date: July 6, 2018

The appeal arguments that Jodi Arias wanted to keep secret are out -- and now we know why Arias didn't want Nancy Grace to see them. She accuses our favorite prosecutor host of costing her a fair trial because of her coverage of the case. Grace disagrees, as do her guests: lawyer Ashley Willcott, lawyer & psychologist Dr. Brian Russell, psychologist Caryn Stark and RadarOnline.com reporter Alexis Tereszcuk. Next, Grace looks at Julie Schenecker's arguments for a new trial. The Florida mom was convicted to killing her 2 children because they were "mouthing off." Prosecutor Kenya Johnson, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and WFLA-TV reporter Meredyth Censullo join the discussion. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Subscribe today at PIMagazine.com. Use this show's promotional code for your special discount at PIMagazine.com. Subscribe today. Use promo code Nancy for your special discount. That's promo code Nancy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. After they met at a work event, the world stopped still. They dated. He broke up. She did not accept that.

She traveled across the desert with gas cans in her trunk so as not to leave a trail at any gas station with a credit card or an ATM, showed up at his doorstep, had a marathon day of sex, then stabbed him 29 times and capped it off with a shot to the head. And today she's blaming everybody, him, his family, the media, me. I don't feel that special. For her conviction, I'm talking about none other than Jodi Arias. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

Joining me right now, along with Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, lawyer, founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com. Dr. Brian Russell, host of Investigation Discovery's hit series, Fatal Vows. Renowned New York psychologist, Karen Stark. Alexis Tereszczuk, joining me from RadarOnline.com. Alexis, I know you stayed up through the night sifting through over 430 pages of appellate brief from Jodi Arias. I mean, isn't it pretty simple? Isn't her digital camera found in his washing machine by police with the wet laundry with photos of the crime as it happened? Accidental photos. I mean, am I missing something? According to Jodi, what you're missing is that this is all your fault, Nancy. Right off the bat in this brief filed, this is the first time in three years we've heard from Jodi other than finding out that she was buying things to make sex toys behind bars, is that she blames you, Nancy Grace, for her getting what she says is an unfair trial.

She says that she did not kill Travis for any other reason except for self-defense. She goes through her excuses for killing him. Her attorneys have written in this crazy brief that she finally found out that Travis was a pedophile, and then he abused her, she shot him and then doesn't remember stabbing him. But what she says is it was the fault of the media. Nancy Grace, who set up a remote television station one block away from the court, that is a direct quote from these papers, one block away. And you taunted the defense every night on your show. You were pro-prosecution and that you taunted her and that this led to the jurors believing everything that you were saying, including their family members. And that is why she got an unfair trial and why she deserves to have this verdict, which is guilty, guilty of first degree murder for stabbing him, slitting his throat and shooting him in the head.

And she believes that this should be thrown out because of you. You know, that's always heartening to hear. But I think it had more to do with the evidence. What is unusual to me right now is that she is still blaming Travis Alexander. I mean, to you, Dr. Brian Russell, you're the shrink, lawyer and psychologist. Your specialty is about fatal vows. Now, they met. It's interesting. I'm going to go to Karen Stark on this in a moment.

But all of his friends and family that knew her did not want him to be with her. And I've questioned them about that repeatedly, saying, what was it about her? And they all said, I don't know. It was just a freaky, hinky feeling. She was just, we just thought she was weird and crazy. There was just something about her. You know, Dr. Brian Russell, she's, many people believe, beautiful. She's got a beautiful face.

Many people think she's got a beautiful body. I don't find her beautiful, but many people do. She's got tons of people writing her and sending her money behind bars. The thing is, when Travis Alexander, who I understand at the time was a devout Mormon, got tangled up with Jodi Arias, at some point he wanted to break it off. He said things like he did not think they would ever get married. He wanted to start dating other people. She would have none of it. So she finds out he's going on a trip to Cozumel with another woman,

and that just throws her into a fit. Drives literally across the desert. She's moved away with all the gas cans in her trunk so she doesn't have to stop to use her credit card or be on a surveillance video at a 7-eleven gets to his home they have crazy fetish sex all day complete with photos which were played over and over and over at trial and then he still refuses to cancel the Cozumel date. And when that happens, she stabs him 29 times and shoots him in the head, leaving his body to decompose in the shower.

Help me out, Dr. Brian Russell. I'm glad you just gave that rundown, Nancy, because one of the things that's specifically said in this appellate brief is that you had criticized this alleged expert for the defense, this therapist, whom I criticized also at the time on the air, because she apparently knew nothing about Travis Alexander or his relationship with Jodi Arias, except whatever Arias, remember, a defendant facing the death penalty, somebody highly motivated to lie, had told her. Yet she goes into court and she testifies that Arias suffered from battered woman syndrome and PTSD.

Let me just quickly address both of those. First of all, I'm highly skeptical whenever I hear battered woman syndrome as a defense, whereby women in abusive relationships allegedly can't see any means of escape other than killing the abuser, alleged abuser, when in fact there are alternative means of escape, calling 911, fleeing, filing for divorce, for example. It's not a formally recognized diagnosis. It's not supported by sound psychological data. Don't get me wrong. I hate domestic violence, but the remedies not to allow an alleged battered wife to be the judge, jury, and executioner for the alleged batterer. You know, if she said she'd killed him while he was beating her, there'd be a self-defense argument.

But physical evidence from the scene clearly suggested that didn't happen that way. I never saw solid evidence that he'd ever beaten her. Then this PTSD thing, which is, you know, a disordered psychological reaction to a stressful event, that does not explain, in my opinion, the gaps in her memory, alleged gaps, for events surrounding the killing. Killing somebody and claiming that the killing gave you PTSD is like the Menendez brothers murdering their parents and then crying about being orphaned. But more importantly, she recalled specifics like what she ate and drank before and after, but supposedly didn't remember the stabbing, really? Well, another thing regarding that, let me address the battered women's syndrome issue. When I prosecuted in inner city Atlanta, I also volunteered at the battered women's center.

And it was a hidden location in Atlanta. And I manned the hotline. I firmly support the battered women's syndrome in many cases. This, however, is not one. Let's just look at the facts. As you accurately point out, Dr. Brian Russell, there were many ways, if it were indeed true, which no one but Aria says is true, they were broken up. She had moved away, hours away. They were not living together. They were never married. They never had children, nothing. They had a fling. He broke up. She moved away, scorned. She left. She was living somewhere else, had a brand new place to live, had a car, a job, the works. And they'd been apart for a while.

How could this possibly be battered women's syndrome when you have no choice but to kill? While I do support the battered women's syndrome as a defense, this, I agree with you, was not one of them. As a matter of fact, I'm reading directly from the autopsy report. Travis Alexander's jugular vein, his throat was slit. The common carotid artery, the trachea, had been slashed. He had defensive wounds on his hand. He may have even been dead at the time she shot him in the head. Also, the crime scene revealed that when he first was stabbed, he realized he was dying. He stumbled to the bathroom mirror and actually looked in the mirror as he was dying. And we know this because of the blood evidence. There were drops, not spatter, not throwback, not transfer, drops of blood that dropped down from his neck and his nose and his face onto the sink as he looked into the mirror as he died.

And he was left naked and bloody, bleeding out in the shower. As a matter of fact, it's really not even contested how he died. Listen to Jodi Arias at trial admitting she slit his throat. Would you agree that you're the person who actually slit Mr. Alexander's throat from ear to ear. Yes. To Ashley Wilcott, a veteran trial lawyer and judge, it gives me no pleasure to replay the rendition of how Travis Alexander was murdered.

He didn't see it coming. He had no idea what was about to happen. But we also know, Ashley, that at the beginning, she claimed that she wasn't there. She had nothing to do with it at all. Then when evidence turned up that she had been there she actually claimed that ninjas showed up all dressed in black and for no reason burst into the home stole nothing she ran and saved her own life but they killed travis and left like shadows in the night i mean ashley really right really so she was lying from the get-go obviously with the story that she initially told with the ninjas. But here's what I love about our justice system. During this trial, it went from story to story to story to story. But as you just played, finally, on the stand, under oath, she admits she slit his throat, period.

Yeah, and just like this, just like that. his throat, period. Karen Stark were actual photos. She had been taking sex photos the whole day, okay? But forget about that. On the digital camera that she left in the washing machine are photos we think accidentally taken during Travis's murder. Karen Stark, New York psychologist, what about that? Well, I mean, here's somebody who says that she's suffering from PTSD and she can't remember anything, but she's cleaning up. She took photos and this is a person who really is not only a pathological liar,

but has absolutely no guilt about anything that happened and documented it as it was happening. Now, even if it was accidental, somehow she knew that she should wash things up, clean them up, despite the ninjas or whatever she was saying. And she very clearly is a psychopath who committed this murder. There is no doubt in my mind that she knew exactly what she was doing and that it had to do with rage and jealousy and her inability to let go of this man. Alexis Therese Chuck, RadarOnline.com. You also cover the case every single day. I was in the

courtroom almost every day and was broadcasting from a couple blocks away from the courthouse. The digital camera evidence to me is overwhelming. It places her there at the time of the murder in the room with Travis. It does. It's right up to and after she murders him. There's there are pictures of him naked in the shower. He's got the water running over him. He's looking directly at the camera. These were not secret photos that he didn't know were being taken. Then there's the picture of his foot in the shower. And there's another picture of the blood on the floor. And they're taking, there's a timestamp so you can tell that they were taken just moments, literally less than two minutes after he was alive in the shower she's taking pictures and then he's dead she when she went into her frenzy her spree killing spree and stabbed him repeatedly and the thing was it she also shot him but the bullet casing was found on top of the blood so what the evidence was presented in court is that there's no way she shot him first otherwise that would be on the bottom and be covered with blood it happened afterwards and it wasn't disturbed. And this is everything that was shown on her camera. She didn't

even take the camera with her. She stuck it in the washing machine. She left it there. It was so easy for everybody to find. One particular photograph is very convincing. It is accidentally taken as Jodi Arias drags Travis's body and it shows blood running down his neck, according to the prosecutor. The prosecution actually displayed a very disturbing photo. They say it was accidentally taken as she dragged Travis's body through his home after stabbing him 29 times. Now the dark image and I'm looking at it right now Jackie here it is that's of Travis and it's of the back of his head part of his back and his arm and there's blood pouring down his back and there's a obstruction in the foreground and it is a leg wearing sweatpants. But what you do see is Travis's body being dragged across the floor,

covered in blood going down his back. I mean, Dr. Brian Russell, it's on her camera. How can you get away from the fact that her own admission and her camera convicted her, not me or anybody else? Well, that's right. It's crystal clear to me that the evidence does not support any kind of a self-defense, battered woman, any kind of argument like that. The evidence is totally consistent with a woman who felt narcissistic entitlement to literally administer

the death penalty to a man who had scorned her in her mind. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. This case certainly proves that. But, you know, the overall thing about this appeal that jumps out at me is that there's allegation after allegation of media coverage biasing the public in it. But it really doesn't even effectively allege how that media coverage biased the jury, at least not in any identifiable way. So I'm really not sure what the beef is with not getting a fair trial because of the media coverage. There's really no nexus in this appeal between the media coverage and reaching the jury. And if you think about it, she didn't get the worst outcome she could have gotten, which you'd think is what would have happened if the

jury had been so profoundly biased. You know, to Ashley Wilcott, a nearly 400 page, well, 400 plus page brief. I mean, what about that? So Nancy, I stayed up last night and read the entire brief because I was astounded at the length of it, the facts that were in it. But let's boil it down to this. The press coverage was inconsequential to the verdict. A fundamental constitutional right, First Amendment right, media has to report, right, freedom of speech. And what really bothers me in this case is here is a defendant. Jody actually is one who has consistently used her First Amendment right, freedom to speech, to her benefit. And then she wants to accuse the press of doing it in a way that has affected prejudice the jury and I

agree completely that nexus isn't there well Ashley I'll always have our time in court together when she shot a bird at me we'll always have Arizona my happy memories of Jodi Arias but you know what I have to say that I've met an American Idol because Jodi Arias did win American Idol behind bars. Take a listen. Oh, holy night, the stars are brightly shining. It is the night of our dear Savior's birth. Okay, Alan, I've had enough. Did you know about a recent law that could leave your personal data exposed online for anybody to find?

If you've turned on the news lately, you know the Internet has created a dangerous new world. Data breaches expose private information. There's a new cybersecurity threat every other day, and criminals can sell the identity of you and your family on the dark web. It's time you take the power back by using a new website called Truthfinder. Truthfinder allows you to find out exactly what information exists about you online. Have you gotten a speeding ticket? Received a lien from the IRS?

Forgotten about an embarrassing social media profile? Truthfinder searches through millions of public records, puts all that data together in one easy to read report. Members get unlimited searches, so you can also look up those close to you and make sure they're not hiding something from their past. You also get free dark web monitoring to make Truthfinder the ultimate tool in identity protection. If your personal info appears for sale on the dark web, you'll be the first to know. Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. Did a Tampa woman try and manipulate her daughter's face into a smile

after she allegedly shoots the daughter and her teen brother dead. This in a meticulously planned double murder. This mom, Julie Shinaker, living in a beautiful upscale home, a mansion. When you look at the overhead aerial shot of it, you see a pool in the backyard, manicured green lawn, everything you could imagine at the tip of your fingers. Why? Why are these two children dead? And why is she conniving to walk free? With me in all-star lineup, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, and author of Blood Beneath My Feet, renowned New York psychologist Karen Stark, Ashley Wilcott, founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com, judge and lawyer, Atlanta prosecutor Kenya Johnson, and joining me now, WFLA-TV reporter Meredith Censulo. Meredith, first to you, explain to me what police have learned.

Let's start at the beginning with the death of the little girl and teen boy. Colonel Parker Schoeniger was serving overseas. He was stationed in Qatar and was unable to reach his family. He flew back to the United States and went to his home in New Tampa, a very nice neighborhood in Tampa, and walked into the home and couldn't find anyone. He goes searching throughout the home, and in an upstairs bedroom, he finds his 16-year-old daughter, Calix, a very well-performing child in school involved in sports but she was found well wait a minute she was a straight a student she was a a star athlete i mean i'm looking at the pictures of the two children right now ashley wilcott and they're beautiful they obviously have had braces on their teeth they live in a beautiful home and what i find really significant about the death of Calix, the girl, the little girl,

she's propped up. She had been propped up at her computer doing her homework, Ashley. Yeah, and that bizarre. And so you're right. This is a case in which these are kids that any one of us might see our kids hanging out with and friends of and doing well in school and doing well. So how bizarre is it this happens? And then she's propped up like that. Pretty sick. Go ahead, Meredith Cianciullo. So Calix was actually found propped up in bed. She had been shot in the back of her head and she was located in a bedroom away from where she'd been shot. Colonel Schoeniger then finds his son, 13-year-old Beau. Okay, wait, wait, wait. I want to go back to what you just said, Meredith Cicillo. That's really significant in the crime scene. Meredith Cicillo had just corrected me. The body had been moved away from the computer. She's right, Joe Scott Morgan.

What does that mean to you? That the mother took care rearranging things. And can I point out one thing that's really key here? When they found this young girl's body reclined on the bed, her body was actually covered with a blanket. It was actually, the face was actually covered. And this is something that we see in cases like this, where if an individual is known, where they have a personal relationship, it's called face covering. They don't want to be able to look into the eyes of the individual they've perpetrated this crime with. That is significant. Take a listen to Colonel Parker Schoeniger as he's describing the conversation he had with his wife just before he left for Afghanistan. I reminded her I'm leaving in a

few days, just wanted to make sure that everything was okay. Are you going to be okay with me being gone for a couple of weeks? What did the defendant say? And then I added on to that. I said, if there's a problem, I can ask Nancy to come in or I can find someone else to come in. The defendant at that time looked me square in the eye and said, I got this. So that, to me, is in stark contrast, Karen, stark New York psychologist, with what we know was said later, because the mother, Julie Shinaker, states that she backhanded her daughter in the face for, quote, being mouthy. The daughter said something like, you're not my parent, you disgust

me. Okay, I would have been mad about that, too. I don't know if I would have slapped him in the face, though, Karen Stark. You wouldn't have slapped him in the face and you wouldn't have killed him, Nancy. I mean, that's extreme. Yes, you have to deal with teenagers and adolescents who begin to talk back and have issues. But this is a case of somebody who couldn't deal with the situation and took matters into her own hands. As Joe Scott Morgan said, this is somebody who was treated, her body was staged, and that happens in a situation where you have a personal relationship. And despite the fact that you killed the person, you're still caring enough to want to cover their

face and put a blanket over them, that there's a personal involvement here. You know, I want to revisit that scenario with me from WFLA-TV investigative journalist Meredith Cianciullo. I want to, because this is very significant about how Calix's body is found. What is the scenario police have put together as to how the teen girl was killed? What they found was that Calix had been shot from behind in her head, was then shot in her mouth. Because as we've mentioned, Julie Schoenecker, her mother, was upset. She felt like her children were becoming mouthy children. So she also shot Calix in the mouth after she had shot the child in the head.

At some point, she then relocated the 16-year-old's body into a bedroom and then covered the child. And what we believe now is that she also tried to cut a smile onto Kalix's face, onto her mouth. That's how the daughter was found dead. What about the son, Beau? 13-year-old Bo was found in the family's vehicle. It appears that he also had been shot in the back of the head and in his mouth. He was bending down to move some soccer equipment around. They were actually on their way to soccer practice. It hadn't even gotten out of the driveway when Julie Schoenecker pulled out

a gun and shot him as he was leaning down, shot him in the back of the head, and then also shot him in his mouth. His body was left in the vehicle. Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator. You and I have seen so many crime scenes, so many homicides. There's something about this case. It just, it just makes me sick in the bottom of my stomach. I mean, I feel that way about all of the cases that we cover, especially the ones regarding children. But this case, I mean, these children, yeah, they're a couple of years older. They remind me so much of John David and Lucy. Yeah. And, and that's the tragedy here because it's not just the case itself, Nancy. It's not just their brutal homicides. It's the fact that these kids were

living, I think, in my opinion, at least from what we're piecing together in a tortured environment, um, torturous, uh, just day in and day out. There's evidence that this person had been detailing in a diary the wrongs that her children had done to her. Oh, hold on. Hold on just a moment. You're right, Joe Scott Morgan. Tamerita Censulo, WFLA-TV investigative journalist. Tell me about the diary, the journal Joe Scott referred to. That's right. Julie Schoeniger was keeping a diary and she would repeatedly write in that diary that her children were mouthy and that she wanted to basically silence them, get rid of these children that she felt were in some way

turning against her. It appears now that her husband was starting to pull away from her, and she had the impression also that her children were pulling away from her, that they were becoming mouthy, and she wanted to silence them. She wanted to stop this in her own warped mind. I think she felt like if they were going to pull away from her, she was going to make sure that didn't happen, and she was also going to make sure that they would never be able to mouth back to her again, and this is what she did, and this is what she detailed in the diary, including following their murders, detailing exactly what she had done to the children. Right now, mother of two, Julie Schoenecker, planning, conniving, scheming to walk free. This after both of her children,

Bo and Calix, found dead by gunshot wounds in their multi-million dollar home. Meredith Censulo joining me, WFLATV investigative journalist. You know, this mother had it all, Meredith. I mean, describe their lifestyle. She was a very brilliant woman. She was in the military. She had become a translator. She was career military. Her husband was doing very well, also a member of the military. The neighborhood that they lived in here in New Tampa,

very beautiful homes, very nice neighborhood. They had everything that they could ever ask for. The children did very well. We've mentioned that they both were straight-A students. They were involved in sports, great members within their school. And all of that, it appears, led up to her murdering the children in what clearly was premeditated, down to her going out and purchasing a gun, waiting the wait period, later saying that, oh, I was just going to commit suicide with that. Many people have argued that the mother just snapped.

But take a listen to Gerald Tanso, who owns Lock and Load Gun Store. This is where Julie Schoenecker buys the murder weapon before she murders her children. And then try to tell me this was not a calculated plan. Listen. She was an average person, easygoing, very nice, smiling, happy, and just a normal customer for us anyways, you know. Did she tell you why she felt she needed a gun? She said she needed a weapon because there was some crime in her neighborhood. Now, were Julie Schoenecker's hands shaking when she came into the store?

No, she was not shaking at all. She had a very slight shake in one of her hands, but that's more with a lot of people that come to the shop. A lot of older people shake. I mean, nothing to be alarmed about, you know? So when you sold Julie Shinneker the murder weapon, did you have any reason to believe she had a mental illness, that she was insane, that she was drunk or high? Any reason you felt you should not sell her a gun? Not at all. Not at all. In fact, did you find it unusual for a woman to be buying a gun?

We sell guns to women every day. And again, what kind of gun did you say she bought? It was a Smith & Wesson Bodyguard 38. And did she buy ammunition? She bought ammunition, too, correct. When she left, what was her demeanor? She was very nice, very good, very personable, smiling, happy. In fact, didn't she shake your hand when she left?

That was on the day of the pickup, yeah. That was on the 27th. Shook my hand, said goodbye, and everything was fine. That is Gerald Tanso speaking to me on HLN, the owner of Lock and Load Gun Shop in Tampa. And he talks about interacting with Julie Schoenecker the day she bought the murder weapon she then used to kill her children. Meredith Cicillo, WFLA-TV.

Meredith, tell me what you know about her purchase of the murder weapon. Well, she had complained that she had to wait. She didn't like that there was a three-day waiting period. That's what she wrote in her journal because she had said I wanted this to be a Saturday massacre. She wanted to allegedly kill the children and herself on a particular day, and she was upset that that could not happen because she had to wait to get the gun. So do you hear this? Kenya Johnson, Atlanta prosecutor, she goes, she makes a trip to buy the gun, the murder weapon. She has the wherewithal to complain she doesn't want to wait because it's messing up her plan for a Saturday massacre. How could she possibly claim insanity on a case that was so well planned? Absolutely. We're looking at premeditation. We're looking at knowledge of

wrongdoing. She clearly documented her actions. The public would be amazed at how many instances where people tell on themselves. She carefully thought this out and even had the nurse to be angry and upset about it. We have the afterthought. So to come back and say that she was insane at the time that she committed the offense and that this was a missed opportunity for a defense to exonerate her is a stretch and unlikely to prevail in that motion for neutral. Right now, Julie Schoenecker scheming, conniving, plotting to walk free her two children dead. Meredith Cicciolo, WFLA-TV, what about the death, the details of the death, the shooting death of the little boy, Beau? So he was shot in the family vehicle on his way to

soccer practice. Julie was to take him to soccer practice. They had just gotten in the vehicle. He leaned over apparently to adjust some of his gear. And that's when she actually pulled out the gun and shot him. And there was some testimony in the courtroom that perhaps he had noticed that she had pulled out a gun. And that comes from her journal. And she did shoot him in the head, also shot him in the mouth, then left his body in the vehicle because apparently she was unable to carry his body into the home and then place him upstairs and do as she did with Kalix, where cover him with his blankets, put him in his bed. His body was left in the vehicle, but he did die the same way as his older sister did. You know, the boy didn't even see it coming.

Can we determine that, Joe Scott Morgan? Yeah, this speaks volumes to her planning. And if you just go back and look at the daughter, you know, how did they determine that? Well, a lot of blood spatter evidence, probably. Remember, they talked about how she was in a chair and then she was moved to the bed. My thought is, is that the investigators at the scene, when they began to look at this young man's body, they could tell the attitude that he was in. Now, just as Meredith mentioned, this lady had documented in her diary that he had an awareness potentially, and that adds a whole nother level of horror to this, Nancy, when you think about it. He saw his mama draw a gun on him, if that is in fact the case.

I don't know, you know, this lady seems to document everything, which, you know, in my mind goes to intent and planning and all these sorts of things. And then she shoots this young man in the back of the head. I don't think she surprised him. I think that there was something rolling up to this. There was something leading up to this. And again, just this horrific environment these kids had to live in. Well, apparently she claimed they were mouthy. What does that mean, Meredith and Sulo?

Well, she had been writing in her journal that she felt like they had started talking back to her. She noticed that there was an email apparently sent from their father to the children that she was not allowed to see. She perhaps thought that he was planning to leave with the children. We don't know the contents of that email, but I guess in her mind, she was developing this concept that the family was leaving her and perhaps they were getting mouthier to her and she was going to stop all of that. However, she did write in her journal after she had killed the children that her and Bo were going to heaven and that maybe Calyx would join her there. She had a very bad relationship with Calyx, as we learned in the testimony at the trial.

But she still had a decent relationship with her son. And so, again, she felt like the two of them would go to heaven together. And, you know, perhaps Calix would join them there as well. Right, because the little girl is the bad one. Right. Now, what can you tell me, Meredith Cicciolo, about defects previously being in the home one time after an incident where Kalix stated to other people that her mom had backhanded her. Right. And there were details of that that came out during the court trial that Kalix had complained that her mother had backhanded her for being mouthy. Because there were no other documented efforts or a history of the family needing assistance, that was one of those things that was added to a long file of Julie Schoenecker's actions,

not necessarily her actions in regards to abusing her children, but her history of behavior that seemed to be essentially bipolar, very manic, very highs and lows. And there was a growing concern over her behavior. Julie Schoeniger had a history of chronic mental illness, and it appeared that her family noticed that she was literally coming off the rails. There were concerns within the family about her mental health. And all of that, it appears, led up to behavior that seemed to be turning more towards abusing her children. Julie Schoenecker now conniving to walk free after both of her children found dead in their luxurious Tampa home. We learned that she kept a very detailed journal. It reveals chilling information about the murders of

her two children. In the hours after police say she murdered her children, she then, after she murders them, picks up a pen and confesses in a spiral-bound notebook. She said, quote, I offed Bo in the van. Offed him. He's 13 years old. I mean, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, I offed him.

That's mob talk. I mean, why would you refer to your son that way? I don't know. It sounds like an episode of The Sopranos. You know, I'm no psychologist, but it sounds like she's gotten to the point where she's just, it's about the mission she's on, and she's completely detached herself from, you know, any kind of compassion toward these children. Even though she's saying that he's going to join her in heaven, who cares? Who cares at this point? But what we do care about is what kind of picture this paints. She's gone into great detail.

She's playing this thing. She's even talked about being angry about the waiting period to be able to purchase this handgun. Well, listen to this. Listen to this, Joe Scott. And Karen Stark, weigh in. She says, quote, offed Bo in the van. She shot him at close range. It was into the son's head.

The next shot was to the mouth. Quote, his mouthy mouth. Karen. You know, this is a case where she may have been bipolar, but there's no doubt, according to the law, that she knew the difference between right and wrong. So she set up a paranoid case where these kids are working against her and knew exactly what she was doing and then confessed to all of it. So there is no way that she can prove insanity in this case. It doesn't, I can't imagine that she'll ever be able to get away with that. To Kenya Johnson, Atlanta felony prosecutor, apparently Schoenecker's notebook depicts her,

her own notebook is a woman, furious, who vented out all of her anger onto her family, including her two children. She had been about 10 years career in the military. She left it to raise her two children and then became angry, furious at Kellex and Bo for becoming, quote, her words, not mine, sassy. So she killed them. Kenya? I'm so glad that my parents didn't take this stand. Teenagers are known to be mouthy, and this is nothing out of the ordinary, but the answer is not to murder your own children, even if you hope to meet them again in the afterlife

under different circumstances. That's the only insane part about that rationale. However, the fact that she plotted, she documented, she took substantial steps toward committing this crime. She researched how to do this or what is the best way to kill her children. These are all things that can be used against her in court and were likely used against her and shows that she had this intent. And I can see that the jury would not be very sympathetic or a judge because anyone that has a child has had a mouthy teenager or knows of one, and that's just not the way to deal with this. With Child Protective Services being involved with some allegations of perhaps some abuse,

this shows that she may have been separating from reality to an extent, but not quite to the extent that it justifies murder of her own children. This is very egregious and shocking to the public. You know, another issue is, although she murdered both of her children, the girl, Calix specifically, this mom is so angry at her daughter for criticizing what she makes for dinner, maybe the clothes she wears or her behavior. I don't know what this means. I'm sure our shrink, Karen Stark, can weigh in on it. But I don't like it when the children talk back to me. On the other hand, I don't get crazy about it because I'm glad they have their own mind.

I'm glad they're independent. I mean, I don't like them talking back to me, but I really take it with a box of salt. Children are not going to agree with their parents. They're growing up. As much as I don't like it, they are. And it's just one of the obstacles you face. It's part of the package of raising children. According to Julie Shinneker, she described how she snuck up behind her

daughter while her straight-A daughter was at the computer doing homework murdering her, giving Kellex the quote, same treatment she had given her son, one bullet to the head and one bullet to the mouth. You know what, though? You don't need me to tell you. Listen to Julie Shinneker herself. ABC News Tampa. This yellow thing around her came up and went through the ceiling. And then I picked her up and put her in bed and covered her up and I sat her up and I hugged her and

she didn't hug me back and I laid her down and I kissed her good night and I covered her up and then I realized I forgot to cover up Bo and it was January so I went and got a blanket and I covered him up and kissed him good night and I didn't see any blood at all at all. After hearing evidence at trial take a listen to what a Shinneker juror tells me HLN. Well the evidence was actually kind of overwhelming, particularly the journal. The journal was just kind of filled with a lot of hate, well thought out, a lot of it. You could tell she actually was planning quite a ways out exactly what she was going to do it and how she was going to do it. And the defense could never prove the insanity plea that she didn't know right from wrong. And that's really the biggest thing.

The whole thing was just kind of a whole sad, sad case. After the stunning guilty verdicts, we are now learning that Julie Shinneker has no regrets, no regrets whatsoever about murdering her two children. According to People magazine, a jaw-dropping discovery after Julie Schoenecker says she would do the same thing all over again. She was asked if she regretted the shooting, and she says, no, I saved them. She also claims that the gun that she purchased was for suicide, not to hurt her children, that she only meant to kill herself, not them. Funny how it always turns out that way, Karen Stark. I knew you were going to say that, Nancy, because we hear so many stories where people say, I bought this gun.

Maybe I was going to kill them, but I was definitely going to kill me. And yet they don't wind up shooting themselves. Miraculously, they managed to survive and kill off their families. So I don't buy that for a second that she bought the gun to kill herself. We are now learning that Shinneker is seeking and very possibly will receive a new trial. The basis in a motion filed by Shinneker is that her lawyers were ineffective, making multiple mistakes, such as leaving out a critical video of evidence of her at the hospital after the incident to show, to prove to the jury that she was insane at the time. She's also claiming that the jurors were predisposed to find her guilty, that they had already made their minds up on day

one, and that some of them slept through parts of the trial. Now, we know that now, infamous video was taken hours after the arrest where she is shaking uncontrollably. But, Joe Scott, she wasn't shaking when she took aim at her children. All right? She's a pretty good shot. Yep. She was right on target, Nancy, completely. And it seems like she was in full control of her faculties.

Because, you know, after this, she went back, you know, manipulated the scene from the initial shooting, rearranged things just like she wanted it. And wasn't that the way it is? She wanted everything to be her way in this particular case. And she got it. Unfortunately, you had all of these lives that were just absolutely ripped to shreds. Now, if a judge grants her a motion for a new trial, she will be brought back to Tampa to argue in front of the judge. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. Did you know a recent law can leave your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? If you've turned on the news lately, you know the internet

has created a dangerous new world. It's time you take back the power by using a new website called Truthfinder. Have you been issued a speeding ticket? Received a lien from the IRS? Did you forget about an embarrassing social media profile? That info may already be online. Truthfinder can help you find it. Truthfinder searches millions of public records, assembling the data together in one report. Members get unlimited searches, so you can also look up those close to you and make sure they're not hiding something. Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.