Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Jodi Arias' Failed Attempt to Blame Nancy Grace For an Unfair Trial Leads to New Bid For Freedom

Episode Date: August 10, 2025

Jodi Arias stabs her boyfriend, Travis Alexander, 28 times, shoots him and leaves him to die in a shower. In 2025, she remains in jail, serving a life sentence for murder.  Currently held at the Arizona State Prison Complex - Perryville, Arias is appealing her conviction, alleging prosecutorial misconduct and a biased atmosphere during the trial.   Nancy's expert panel weighs in: Judge Ashley Willcott: Judge & Trial Attorney Dr. Brian Russell: Host of "Fatal Vows" on ID Caryn Stark: Psychologist Alexis Tereszcuk: Entertainment editor at radaronline.com   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Why won't she go away? I'm talking about convicted killer Jodi Arias. Convicted in the brutal stabbing death of her lover, Travis Alexander, stabbing him 29 to 31 times there's an argument over that. because there were so many stab wounds, they began to overlap each other, and it's like stabbing jillo. You can't really tell how many times somebody's been stabbed when they've been stabbed that many times

and then kept it off by shooting him in the head, leaving her lover to decompose in his own shower. Why? Even after the two had broken up, she travels across many states in secret to have a marathon sex session with him to convince him not to take the new woman he's dating on a trip to Cancun. Well, the sex marathon didn't work and he didn't cancel the date to Cancun. So what's the girl to do? Kill him. And she did. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Yes, Jody Arias will not go away. And now she's set to launch a, of course, dramatic bid to be freed from prison after lover Travis Alexander's brutal slaying. Areas behind bars has hinted at a dramatic new legal strategy, hoping to get her toe in the

door to freedom after she was sentenced to life behind bars in a gruesome murder. Of course, she has her own substack. Oh, her and taught mom. In a disturbing new post on the substack, she writes, one of her top priorities is pursuing PCR post-conviction relief. It's a legal maneuver that allows inmates to challenge their convictions or sentences based on new evidence or constitutional violations. Okay, lady, bring it on because we have got an avalanche.

of evidence that you murdered Travis. Joining me right now, along with Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, lawyer, founder of ChildcrimeWatch.com, Dr. Brian Russell, host of Investigation Discovery's hit series, Fatal Vows, renowned New York psychologist, Karen Stark, Alexis Tereschuk, joining me from radaronline.com. Alexis, why won't she go away? Because she can't.

She craves the attention of everybody. She says that she wants to just do good behind bars, but she doesn't. She still runs a Twitter account. She still writes to her fans. She cannot live outside of the spotlight. Let's go back in the courtroom. What happened, Alexis? Jody Arias created a circus in the courtroom when she took the stand.

Everybody was stunned. I was. I know you were. And she was on there for days spending her lies about Travis Alexander. Alexis, what can you tell me about Travis Alexander in law? What was he like? Travis was the nicest guy. He was a Mormon, the religion that he had committed himself to as he was older, and he was full of life.

He had so many friends. He was a respected business guy. He was the one who had the whole house and had all the roommates, so everybody depended on Travis, take care of them, and that's what he did. He took care of everybody. He was funny. He was adventurous. He was always going on trips.

And in fact, when he and Jody started dating, they went on a lot. have trips together, fun trips to waterfalls and to San Diego, lots of places. He was an up-and-coming entrepreneur. He was running his own business through the organization and he was really

climbing up in the company because people liked him. He had a quick smile. His sister just said he was the nicest guy you would ever meet. Everybody that met him said he was so nice. And he was also struggling with his religion. He wanted to follow the tenant so strictly, but he also, like any

other young person in their late 20s, early 30s, you know, he wanted to have sex with his girlfriend. It's interesting, and I'm going to go to Karen Stark on this in a moment, but all of his friends and family that knew her did not want him to be with her. And I've questioned them about that repeatedly, saying, what was it about her? And they all said, I don't know. It was just a freaky, hinky feeling. She was just, we just thought she was weird and crazy.

There was just something about her. Dr. Brian Russell, she's, many people believe, beautiful. She got a beautiful face. Many people think she's got a beautiful body. I don't find her beautiful, but many people do. She's got tons of people writing her and sending her money behind bars. The thing is, when Travis Alexander, who I understand at the time was a devout Mormon, got tangled up with Jody Arias.

At some point, he wanted to break it off. He said things like he did not think they would ever get married. He wanted to start dating other people. She would have none of it. So she finds out he's going on a trip to Cozumel with another woman, and that just throws her into a fit. Drives literally across the desert. She's moved away with all the gas cans in her trunk so she doesn't have to stop to use her credit card or be on a surveillance video at a 7-Eleven gets to his home. They have crazy fetish sex all day, complete with photos.

which were played over and over and over at trial. And then he still refuses to cancel the Cozumel date. And when that happens, she stabs him 29 times and shoots him in the head, leaving his body to decompose in the shower. Help me out, Dr. Brian Russell. I'm glad you just gave that rundown, Nancy, because, you know, she said she'd killed him while he was beating her. There'd be a self-defense argument,

but physical evidence from the scene clearly suggested that didn't happen that way. I never saw solid evidence that he'd ever beaten her. Let's just look at the facts. As you accurately point out, Dr. Brian Russell, there were many ways, if it were indeed true, which no one, but area says it's true, they were broken up. She had moved away, hours away. They were not living together. They were never married.

They never had children. Nothing. They had a fling. He broke up. She moved away. Scorned. She left. She was living somewhere else, had a brand-new,

place to live, had a car, a job, the works. And they'd been apart for a while. As a matter of fact, I'm reading directly from the autopsy report. Travis Alexander's jugular vein, his throat was slit. The common carotid artery, the trachea, had been slashed. He had defensive wounds on his hand. He may have even been dead at the time she shot him in the head. Also, the crime scene revealed that when he first was stabbed, he realized he was dying. He stumbled to the bathroom mirror and actually looked in the mirror as he was dying. And we know this because of the blood evidence. There were drops, not spatter, not throwback, not transfer, drops of blood that dropped down from his neck

and his nose and his face onto the sink as he looked into the mirror as he died. And he was left naked and bloody bleeding out in the shower. As a matter of fact, it's really not even contested how he died. Listen to Jody Arias at trial admitting she slit his throat. Would you agree that you're the person who actually slit Mr. Alexander's throat from

ear to ear? Yes. To Ashley Wilcott, a veteran trial lawyer and judge, it gives me no pleasure to replay the rendition of how Travis Alexander was murdered. He didn't see it coming. He had no idea what was about to happen, but we also know, Ashley, that at the beginning, she claimed that she wasn't there. She had nothing to do with it at all. Then when evidence turned up that she had been there, she actually claimed that ninjas showed up, all dressed in black, and for no reason burst into the home, stole nothing. She ran and saved her own life, but they killed Travis and left like shadows in the night. I mean, Ashley. Really? Right, really. So she was lying from the gig go, obviously, with the story that she initially told with the ninjas. But here's what I love about our justice system. During this trial, it went from story to story to story to story. But as you just played finally on the stand under oath, she admits, she slit his throat, period. Yeah. And just like this, just like that. And then shot him, cleaned up the

as best she could, put a lot of clothes in the washer, including her digital camera. Hello. And on the camera to Karen Stark were actual photos. She had been taking sex photos the whole day, okay? But forget about that. On the digital camera that she left in the washing machine, our photos, we think, accidentally taken during travel. Travis' murder.

Karen Stark, New York psychologist, what about that? This is a person who really is not only a pathological liar, but has absolutely no guilt about anything that happened and documented it as it was happening. Now, even if it was accidental, somehow she knew that she should wash things up, clean them up, despite the ninjas or whatever she was saying. and she very clearly is a psychopath who committed this murder. There is no doubt in my mind that she knew exactly what she was doing and that it had to do with rage and jealousy

and her inability to let go of this man. Alexis Tereschuk, radaronline.com. You also covered the case every single day. I was in the courtroom almost every day and was broadcasting from a couple blocks away from the courthouse. The digital camera evidence to me is overwhelmed. It places her there at the time of the murder in the room with Travis. It does.

It's right up to and after she murders him. There are pictures of him naked in the shower. He's got the water running over him. He's looking directly at the camera. These were not secret photos that he didn't know were being taken. Then there's the picture of his foot in the shower. And there's another picture of the blood on the floor. And there's a time stamp so you can tell that they were taken just moments, literally

less than two minutes after he was alive in the shower. She's taking pictures and then he's dead. When she went into her frenzy, her spree, killing spree, and stabbed him repeatedly. And the thing was she also shot him, but the bullet casing was found

on top of the blood. So what the evidence was presented in court is that there's no way she shot him first. Otherwise, that would be on the bottom and be covered with blood. It happened afterwards and it wasn't disturbed. And this is everything that was shown on her camera. She didn't even take the camera with her. She stuck it in the washing machine. She left it there.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. In the last days, we learned convict the killer Jody Arias is set to launch a dramatic bid to be freed after being convicted and her lover, Travis Alexander's horrible, horrible murder. It's called a PCR post-conviction relief petition. Possibly her most serious legal action since the end of her trial, indefinitely a Hail Mary, a last ditch try to overturn her conviction. Did I leave out the part that his throat was cut so deeply? The knife almost reached his spinal cord, much like Nicole Browns. Arias changed her story so many times.

She ultimately went with self-defense after claiming she wasn't there, then claiming that she was there and ninjas broke in and murdered Travis and she miraculously got away to, she did it, but it was in self-defense. Okay. She was sentenced to life behind bars without the possibility of parole. And now this. In her substack post, Arias claims she's been, quote, misunderstood and over-sexualized since her trial. Wow.

I wonder whose fault that was. What do we know about Jody Arias? To Alexis, Tereschuk, Alexis, exactly where is Jody Arias housed? Has she been moved? What's the name of her correctional facility? and what do we know specifically about security there? Is it a pod? Does she have a roommate?

Can she decorate herself like a dorm room? So she is in the Perryville prison. She has not been moved. She entered there in 2015, April 13th, 2015. So she has been there just over four years. It is a very standard 12 by 7 cell, I believe, with a bed and a sink. She does not have a roommate because it is maximum security. She was convicted of murder in the first degree.

She is classified. She cannot have any movement. And she's had a review every year since she's been there to maybe lower down the classification level of her risk assessment. Never been lowered. It's gone from a five to a four, which is nothing at all. She's still in a maximum security prison. She does not have a lot of freedom or free will to walk around to see other people. She's going to want to herself, but she can decorate her.

and she also has a television and she is able to watch TV and she watches it nonstop. And she spends most of her time in solitary confinement. That's the way this prison is designed in Arizona. It's a pretty harsh prison for the worst of the killers in the state. But she also has a job behind bars. She has been working in the library. She works over 40 hours a week, but she makes a whopping 40 cents an hour. Alexis, what can you tell me about Jody Arias' life behind bars?

Is it true? She has dozens of love letters a day. Did nobody see Travis Alexander's decomposing body in the shower? No matter how many times I played it on, HLN. What man is right? Mine would seek out Jody Arias. What do they want to be with a killer? Or do they think she's innocent? These people out there, these men are just bamboozled by her hair. It used to be, she used to be this bleached blonde, really buxom girl. Now behind bars, she has her macular. brown hair. It's probably gray at this point. And they write her obsessively. She even has said, I cannot even respond to everybody who writes to me because I get so many fan letters a day, dozens of them. She has all of the things that she buys from the commentary in there, so she buys tons and tons of paper and envelopes so she can write to all of her fans. And the people tell her they love her and they believe that she's innocent and that she's going to get out. And then when she gets out, that they're going to maybe even get together with her. They are just fans. Alexis, how do you know she's getting all these love letters?

The prison has confirmed to us that she receives multiple letters, and then she runs a Twitter account through a friend, and that friend posts that people write to her all the time. Are these men sending her money? Are they insane? Yes, people send her so much money. They send her, they have to send it through the prison system, but they have it because she has a huge fat account in the jail commissary. Okay, so if they're sending her money, Alexis Tereshik, what is she doing with it? I mean, what's there to spend it on behind bars? She is spending all of her money at the commissary on a variety of things. But the thing that struck me the most is that she's buying toothbrushes, which Carissa Judice told us, that she learned when she was in prison that that can be used as a sex toy behind bars. She shops relentlessly at the canteen.

She buys 10 sardines. She buys Doritos. She buys pudding. She buys desserts. She buys cookies. She also buys beano, which, you know, can treat her stomach problems. She buys pretzels, cookies, crackers. Any sort of junk food is on there.

Jody is buying it. Alexis, I understand that she's treated like a celebrity behind bars. What does that entail? She is quite popular behind bars. if she is the one that everybody goes to, well, she claims that she gives other people. She buys things from the commentary to give to other people. Those people behind bars are not as lucky as she is. But there has been other inmates who are also lost up in the same prison who have revealed

that people get in fights with Jody and that she's often mowing off in the shared courtyard. Is it true that she has privileges to get on the Internet? and if so, write the lovelorn men that are contacting her? She does go to the library. She actually works in the library. She is a library aide, and she has said that the library books in this prison are just terrible. So she's asked people, she started book drives behind bars, to ask people to send things that people would want to read.

But the prison is very strict about what you can get, and so there are many mostly religious books and probably what you would call smut books, you know, romance books. she does not have access to the internet, but she speaks with folks on the outside that do have access to the internet. So that's how she keeps in touch with everybody through her Twitter account. And the love letter, she can write as many as she wants and she just has to buy stamps, but she has basically unlimited funds in her account. So she is able to buy the stamps to send letters back to everybody that writes to her,

but she has often said, oh, I can't write to everybody, as if she has anything else to do. Alexis Teres, Chuck. What can you tell me about claims that she gets privileges behind bars? Jodyarius does not get any special privileges behind bars, but because she cannot behave. In fact, she was disciplined within her first couple of months of being there. She yelled at a guard and called the guard a cop-blocker because he wouldn't let her get a haircut that she wanted, even though she had no privileges to get a haircut. And then when she was disciplined, she said, oh, I didn't know that that word was a bad word.

I just looked it up in the urban dictionary. So she was disciplined for months on end. She lost her visitation privileges. I understand that Jody Arias perceives herself to be quite the artiste. Okay? And she could be selling her artwork online. Is that true? Let me say, is that still true?

Because I've seen some of it. To me, it looks like she's just tracing pictures out of magazines. But that, I'm no art critic, Alexis. You tell me. Jody Arias was drawing so many pieces of art. And you are right. They did look like she traced things because it was such an exact copy of things for magazines, ads. And even in one picture, everybody thought it looked just like Travis Alexander's sister, which was so disrespectful.

But since she has been in this prison, she's not allowed to sell it or profit all of this, but she is sending people her artwork, and it's on her website from before. So if people wanted to go check that out, Jodi Arias.com has her art. It's disgusting. to Dr. Bethany Marshall, Psycho Allen's joining me out of L.A. Dr. Bethany, behind bars, she's somewhat of a celebrity. She gets hundreds of love letters. People put money in her commissary account.

She, quote, draws, end quote, in other words, traces other drawings and then sells them. It's quite the life. Quite the life, Dr. Bethany. Explain, how is she still manipulating people from behind bars? highly manipulative. You know, I was thinking about borderline personality disorder as you were talking to Alexis. She definitely has borderline personality disorder. And I actually was looking it up in the DSM-5, which is the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders. And one of the characteristics is intense, unstable and conflicted close relationships marked by mistrust, neediness and anxious preoccupation with real or imagined abandonment. Close relationships often viewed in extremes of idealization and devaluation, alternating between over-involvement and withdrawal.

And I can see that in her relationship with Travis Alexander, that it started with the idealization, and then it went through to the devaluation. The idealization is when he was dating her, right? When they were together, when they were going out. And then do you remember that she found out that he was planning a vacation with another woman? Then it went from the idealization to the devaluation, and that's when she started to plot her revenge. Alexis Torres-Chuk, investigative reporter and journalist. Alexis, you and I covered the Arias murder trial together as well as the death penalty phase.

For those who don't know about Jody Arias and her murder conviction, please explain what happened to Travis Alexander when he tried to break up with her. She plotted his murder Lured him in You know Went down to his house in Arizona But it took her four days to get there She stopped along the way To buy a bunch of things

She was going to use Where she ended up Slaughtering him She attacked him While he was in the show Wait a minute though Alexis, hold on Hold on

You're skipping some good stuff Because when she travels You know I don't know how many Hundreds of miles To go murder him She did not want to leave a trail. Describe it, Alexis. So she rented a car in Northern California, about 60 miles away

from her house, so nobody would recognize her. First, they gave her a red car. She said, I don't want a red car. That's too noticeable. I want something different because she didn't want the cops to see her. She then hid out with a boyfriend in another town. She dyed her hair back to its natural brunette from the bleach blonde. She's been sporting. She then bought a gas can, had multiple gas cans in her car, filled them up with gas, not using a credit card so that she couldn't be traced, and then trekked across the desert, hiding when she was, so she couldn't be stopped anywhere and had no record of her being near Travis. Now, I don't recall that he knew she was coming. They'd had a couple of phone calls. She had called him repeatedly, but once she entered the area near

his house, she turned off her phone and did not turn it back on until hours after she murdered him to hide the fact that she was even at his house. She was very devious. She knew exactly what to do to try to cover her tracks. What do you think was the motive of Alexis and why? Jody Arias was jealous that Travis Alexander had moved on. He didn't want to date her anymore. He did not want to be her boyfriend. And he was actually even going on a trip down to Cancun with another girl. And it was a company trip and she had worked for this company so she was humiliated but she was filled with rage because he wouldn't be her boyfriend and he didn't love her and he treated her like she felt like trash they had sex he didn't care he lied about it because he was a Mormon and he but he moved on and

she could never move on and she thought if I can't have him no one else will she literally left Travis Alexander's home with blood on her hands okay blood on her hands drives for hours to get to her next boyfriend and literally hops on top of him and straddles him. Wow. She didn't waste any time. She did not at all. 27 hours in the car, whatever it was with her gun that she had brought, the police, her parents, her grandparents, who she lived with had had a break in. And surprisingly, the only thing stolen was the gun, which is the same caliber of gun that was used to shoot, Travis. Alexis, the fact that they were part of the Mormon religion seemed to it was like a curiosity to so many people.

Why is that? I think it's because the Mormon religion is not as familiar to people across the country as other religion of Christianity. And so people tend to have thought of it as a cult. And so they saw that there was this, what many people called, you know, ritualistic murder, which it wasn't. It was just Jody going crazy and murdering somebody. And they tied it into this church. But also because there were visual images of it. When Jody met Travis, he was a very well-respected member of the church, and he brought her into the church.

And she was baptized and became a member of the church. So there was a photograph of her baptism. And so when people have visual images of things, they can see, it makes it so much more compelling. And then she dragged in the fact that after she got baptized, I think she said that she and Travis had sex. I'm not sure what kind of sex I'm allowed to say on your show. Let's just say not the regular sex. and in some states are still considered sodomy. Go ahead.

So it just made it so much more salacious, and Travis was such an upstanding member of this church, and people loved him, and he was such a good person, and so she joined the church only because of him. And in fact, after she was convicted, church kicked her out, excommunicated her, said they did not want her in.

Alexis Tereschuk, investigative reporter with radaronline.com. I understand that Jody Arias, the murderer, is, mounting an appeal? What's that all about? So yes, she has filed an appeal. She has her attorneys and she has a slew of complaints. She says, she blames her first attorney, Kirk Nirmie, for inappropriate actions with her saying that the way that he spoke to the jury about her saying at the closing argument, nine out of ten days, I hate Jody areas too, but just because you hate her doesn't mean she's guilty, and she said that the fact that he wrote a book compromised her

legal advice, and she wants the appeals court to overturn her conviction because she has a bad lawyer. She had a bad lawyer. She also says that the prosecutor acted inappropriately, which I believe he's been investigated and no charges or actions have been taken against him, and she just wants every excuse in the book to get out of the fact that she not only murdered her boyfriend, but confessed to it on the stand. Take a listen to what the jury heard. And you're doing all of this to, according to your version of events, you're doing this to this individual after you have already shot him, right?

Yes. Correct? I believe so. Well, no. You remember previously talking to us about how he was coming at you, and he was this horrible man with his mean face. Do you remember telling me that? Yes, I didn't say he was horrible. Okay.

Thank you for correcting. Do you remember telling us that he was a mean man? Not today. Well, previously, you did say that he was a mean man, correct? I think I did, yes. And on this particular occasion, you told us that he was cursing at you, right? Yes. And that he threw you down, right?

that he chased you down right yes and this is the individual that you shot first right I didn't know if I shot him I just really ran it off the gun went off right you can at least acknowledge that yes that's something that you did here correct yes Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jody Arias will not go away, no matter what. She claims she has had her rights violated and she has resorted to a PCR post-conviction relief petition. This, although she has already attempted to appeal her verdict, trying to get her

conviction reversed, overturned, arguing the prosecutor. had egregious and self-promoting misconduct that tainted the trial. Well, nobody agreed with that. The appellate court there in Arizona, the Arizona Court of Appeals cited, quote, overwhelming evidence of guilt. Then the Arizona Supreme Court declined to review the Court of Appeals decision. Now Arias is trying a Hail Mary.

Convicted of murdering. her lover, stabbing him 26 times, leaving his dead body slumped over in the shower, shooting him in the head. I remember the shocking scenario that was proven by physical evidence, unrefuted, that he was standing at his bathroom mirror and blood was dripping down, and he saw himself dying. I remember it like it was yesterday. For me, it's a memory for his family. It's never-ending pain.

Today, our thoughts with the family of Travis Alexander and a life cut short. I think about them so often. How are they doing now? They are doing well with their lives. They were devastated when Travis was killed by Jody and even more crushed by the antics that she pulled in the courtroom and with all of her interviews and trying to say that he was a child molester and really drag him through the mud. But they celebrate his life.

However, Jody needles them relentlessly. Whenever she has to send them a check, a restitution check, it just brings back the reminder of how upset they were and how terrible she is. And she has this miserable little job where she makes 40 cents an hour. and so she sends them a $500 check here and there. And it just is a reminder of how she is still alive and their beloved Travis is not. The defense attorney Kirk Nirmie, who tried over and over and over to get off this case, how is Kirk Nirmie doing now? Kirk had a tough time.

After the trial, he was diagnosed with cancer. And he has said repeatedly he told me, I'm sure he's told you, that he believes working with Jody Arias exacerbated his cancer, caused him to have cancer. It was so stressful. He hated her. felt like she was the worst client he'd ever had. He did try to get off the case, repeatedly begged the judges to let him go, and he wouldn't. But he has said, I gave her a great defense.

She admitted she killed her boyfriend. She murdered him, and I protected her from the death penalty. So she should be very thankful because she would have gotten a death penalty if it wasn't for me. I was thinking about all those phone six tapes. Take a listen to this. There you are right, though, in the bath. Oh, when we took a bath together? Uh-huh.

That was surreal, like honestly, and I think, I mean, maybe the candlelight and the bubbles all had something to do with it, but you are amazing. You made me, seriously, you made me feel like a goddess. Like, I wasn't saying you were, like, worshipping me, but you were, you made me feel like I was the most freaking beautiful woman on the whole point. like I so felt like I was the goddess and so aside from all those warm fuzzy feelings but like it was so sexy and it was so hot and oh gosh well that's it wasn't hard because you were freaking you are hot you do you are seriously I don't I don't want

right now for that because I'm touching yourself. Yeah, I'm already. I just started. I'm going to tie you to a tree and go away. What's that? I'm going to tie you to a tree and go over. Oh, my gosh.

That is so debasing. I like it. Joining me, a very special guest, Kirk Nirmie. the Jody Arias defense lawyer, an author of a bestseller, trapped with Ms. Arias. You can find it on Amazon.com. You know, Kirk, a side of a calculated attack on you after you and the rest of your team had sat there and given your blood, sweat, and tears during that trial, just taking so much abuse, not from just Arias, but really everyone.

The whole public was against you. And to this day, you believe it contributed to you getting cancer. You know, that's what malignant means. Mao, worry, bad. That's what malignant means. Do you really believe that, Kirk? I do. I mean, obviously, there's no way to prove it scientifically, but in my heart,

keep in mind, I was assigned Ms. Arias' case in 2009. Thus, she was a part of my life against my wishes from probably, 2010 to 2015, and everything that went along with defending her, having her attacked me in interviews, things of that nature, caused great concern to me about my safety and that of my wife. Yes, I do. Over those years, I believe that it eventually added up, and that's what turned my healthy blood cells into cancerous tumors. Her trial turned into an international Barnum and Bailey circus where Nirmie was against his will elected ringmaster. I want to hear what it was like. See, I always saw her at a distance, like looking at a tarantula

in a glass box. I was at a distance, of course, except for the time she shot a bird at me in court. But needless to say, she wasn't the first and no doubt won't be the last. But Kirk, what was it like being with her? Why was there such a contentious relationship? relationship between you two. Well, obviously a lot of that is privileged. But, you know, my job, the way I look at it anyway, is a detachment. I'm not there to support what she did. I'm not there to, I'm just there to help her support her story.

I'm not there to be her friend. And, you know, that, without saying too much, I think that speaks volumes. I'm trying to, I'm trying to interpret that. In your book, Trapped with Miss Arias, you touch on so many different topics. What do you think was the biggest bombshell in your book? I think probably the biggest bombshell was talking about that attachment she had, and this kind of correlates to what I said earlier about her kind of at some point in time viewing me as her boyfriend.

I was the most significant man in her life, and I was there to do a job. I was not there to be her friend or supporter in any. way other than to advocate her case in the courtroom. Alexis, what's your take on Jody Aries? Judy Aries is a psychopath. She, you know, because she spoke about you all the time. I think she even one time dragged her finger across her throat like she wanted to cut your throat.

She has called me personally crazy after I wrote stories, literally facts from the prison about her, called me obsessed with her. I am not obsessed with her. You are not obsessed with her. we are obsessed with getting the truth and justice for people that were involved in this case, meaning Travis Alexander. She has a huge ego, even locked up behind bars. The world revolves only around Jody Arias.

She was a liar. She was a proven liar. She was very sneaky and she very methodically planned Travis Alexander's murder. Alexis, do you remember the day she shot a bird at me in the courtroom? That's just something I will never forget. I do remember that. She turned around and pulled her middle thing. her up on her chin. Everybody was done. The whole country was done. It was amazing. She has

no sense of what is right or wrong, and she just thought she was wrongly accused of killing her boyfriend, even though she admitted. I'll always have our time in court together when she shot a bird at me. We'll always have Arizona, my happy memories of Jody Arias. But you know what? I have to say that I've met an American Idol, because Jody Arias did win American Idol, behind bars. Take a listen. Oh, holy night, the stars are brightly shining. It is the night of our dear singers. Nancy Grace.

Jody Arias, a Hail Mary, a last ditch attempt at freedom, claiming her constitutional rights have been violated. My rights were violated when I read this headline that Arias is back trying to get out. She is challenging her conviction and she's got plenty of time to study the law. She is now a jailhouse librarian's aide who spends all of her time plotting and scheming ways to get out of jail. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast. Thank you.