Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Jodi Arias kills lover, defense lawyer Kirk Nurmi speaks out & Navy vet murders teen girl, Ashanti Billie

Episode Date: November 10, 2017

Boyfriend killer Jodi Arias is turning her anger toward Kirk Nurmi, the lawyer who helped her avoid the death penalty. Arias is suing Nurmi accusing him of having "utter hatred" of her and being "fixated with the sexual aspect" of her case. Nancy Grace talks with Nurmi, psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall and RadarOnline reporter Alexis Tereszcuk. A homeless Navy vet is charged with kidnapping a Virginia teen whose body was later found behind a church more than 300 miles away. Crime scene investigator Sheryl McCollum and reporter Bobbi Maxwell join Grace to discuss Ashanti Billie's murder. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. The defendant shall be incarcerated in the Department of Corrections for the rest of her natural life with no possibility of parole. She was found guilty but sentenced to life in prison instead of the death penalty. That trial and what came after it changed Kirk Nurmi. Nurmi was the face of her defense, vilified online. When I was done with the Arias trial, I had serious questions about whether or not I wanted to practice law again. Then he was diagnosed with cancer. When cancer entered my life and I began to contemplate my mortality, it became important to me to defend myself. And I feel that that's what I did in my book. The book Trapped with Ms. Arias was a tell-all. Nermy wrote about what it

was like to dealodi Arias. And her lover turned murder victim, Travis Alexander. I still to this day have the button that Travis Alexander's family would wear to court every day or try to that they gave me. But it's not over yet. after Jodi Arias is convicted of murdering her lover, stabbing him 26 times, leaving his dead body slumped over in the shower, shooting him in the head. I remember the shocking scenario that was proven by physical evidence, unrefuted, that he was standing at his bathroom mirror and blood was dripping down and he saw himself dying. I remember it like it was yesterday. For me, it's a memory for his family. It's never ending pain. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories and joining me, a very special guest, Kirk Nermy, Jody Arias's lawyer in an explosive court battle.

But why? Also with me, high-profile L.A. psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall and, of course, Alan Duke joining me from L.A. as well. Straight out to Kirk Nermy. Kirk Nermy, I watched you every single day of the trial. Every day I would wonder, what trick is he going to pull out of his sleeve now? And I would watch your face when Arius would do one thing after the next, like giving jailhouse interviews, which would turn into fodder for a potential jury pool to see.

And it was just one thing after the next, after shooting a bird at me during court. Just one antic after the next, as if you didn't already have enough to deal with. Explain to me your current lawsuit. Well, Nancy, you know, as is Ms. Arias' habit, when men in her life scorn her, and ultimately to her thinking we all scorn her, she lashes out. And it is not surprising to me then that Ms. Arias is choosing to sue me, claiming that I breached her confidentiality. To my thinking, she waived by the numerous interviews she gave and the numerous public filings that she offered to the world and I write my book about how in April 2014 or 2011

rather that she made some threats to me to follow her dictates or she would do what she could to ruin my career and this is merely evidence of that. To slander my name. Wait a minute. Why would she, Kurt and Remy, want to ruin your career? You tried to save her at trial. Well, the thing is, though, and that's ultimately a question for her and maybe for Bethany to analyze Miss Arias,

but keep in mind Miss Arias is in prison for life, and she's probably not happy about that, despite the conduct that landed her there. Joining me right now, Alexis Tereschuk, investigative reporter and journalist for RadarOnline.com. Alexis, you and I covered the Arias murder trial together, as well as the death penalty phase. For those who don't know about Jodi Arias and her murder conviction, please explain what happened to Travis Alexander when he tried to break up with her. She plotted his murder, lured him in, you know, went down to his house in Arizona, but it took her four days to get there. She stopped along the way to buy a bunch of things that she was going to use where she ended up slaughtering him.

She attacked him while he was in the shower. Wait a minute though, Alexis, hold on, hold on. You're skipping some good stuff. Because when she travels, you know, I don't know how many hundreds of miles to go murder him. She did not want to leave a trail. So she filled up gas cans, according to the prosecution, and put them in her trunk so she would not have to stop and be spotted on gas station surveillance video. She would not have to use a credit card. There would be no trace left behind.

So she filled up gas cans, stuck them in her car so she would not be spotted en route on this, you know, hundreds and hundreds of miles trip to get to Travis Alexander. Now, I don't recall that he knew she was coming. What happened, Alexis Tereshchuk? She showed up at his house in the middle of the night night about four o'clock in the morning they'd had a couple of phone calls she had called him repeatedly but once she entered the area near his house she turned off her phone and did not turn it back on until hours after she murdered him to hide the fact that she was even at his house. She was very devious.

She knew exactly what to do to try to cover her tracks. So she goes into the home. And, Kirk Nermy, I'm not asking you fact questions because you may be uncomfortable answering them. With me is Kirk Nermy, Jody Arias's trial lawyer. He is the author of a book. It's a pretty incredible book, Trapped with Miss Arias. She seemingly has taken umbrage with many passages within his book, Trapped with Miss Arias, in the lawsuit, in her lawsuit. Kirk, her lawsuit. Jodi Arias is suing somebody?

I don't understand exactly the reason she is suing. Could you break it down and regular people talk and tell me, Kirk Nermy. Well, like I say, you know, that's ultimately a question for her. But vengeance against men who do Jody wrong is something that is, again, quite common, quite consistent with her pattern. And it's not surprising to me that she is attacking me now, blaming me in essence for her conviction and the fact that she's spending life in prison. That's, to me, what this is about. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining me out of L.A., Dr. Bethany, I went to Jodi Arias' prison. I saw where she was held.

I talked to the female inmates. I ate the veggie loaf, the mystery meatloaf. It wasn't bad, by the way, to try to understand more about Jodi Arias. Because when you look at her, Bethany, many people believe she's beautiful. I don't, because I look at her and I see a killer. And I mean, that's the number one commandment. Thou shall not kill. But behind bars, she's somewhat of a celebrity. She gets hundreds of love letters.

People put money in her commissary account. She, quote, draws, end quote. In other words, traces other drawings and then sells them. It's quite the life, quite the life. Dr. Bethany, explain how is she still manipulating people from behind bars? She's highly manipulative. You know, I was thinking about borderline personality disorder as you were talking to Kirk and Alexis, she definitely has borderline personality disorder. And I actually was looking it up in the DSM-5, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. And one of the characteristics is intense, unstable, and conflicted close relationships marked by mistrust, neediness, and anxious preoccupation with real or imagined abandonment, close relationships

often viewed in extremes of idealization and devaluation, alternating between over-involvement and withdrawal. And I can see that in her relationship with Travis Alexander, that it started with the idealization and then it went through to the devaluation. The idealization is when he was dating her, right? When they were together, when they were going out. And then do you remember that she found out that he was planning a vacation with another woman? Then it went from the idealization to the devaluation. And that's when she started to plot her revenge. You know, not only was she preoccupied with killing him, but she was absolutely obsessed with him. And I think that Jodi Arias idealizes and devalues every man in her life,

and I'm sure Kirk Nermy is no different than any other man who's crossed her path, that she thought that he was a god when he was defending her. But now that she's behind bars and she hasn't gotten exactly what she wants, she's going to start to plot and plan her revenge against Kirk as well. It's no different. Her attachment style is the same with every single man in her life. Fortunately, she's behind bars, so she can't really do anything to Kirk, but she's trying to do everything she can. Kirk Nurmey, Jody Arias trial lawyer with us now. Kirk, what are her allegations against you specifically? Well, there's numerous, and they all, she claims that some of the things that I said in the book were not true, and she claims that they are violations of attorney-client

privilege, and there's numerous allegations that she makes, and it's been a while since I've read the complaint, because quite frankly, I don't let Jodi Arias sink into my world, sink into my life. I look forward, though, to defending each and every one in court. As a matter of fact, after the trial, you were diagnosed with cancer and you firmly believe it is connected to Jody Arias. I do. Keep in mind that, you know, this was a client that I did not want, that I tried to divest myself from back in 2011 and was not able to do so until the spring of 2015. And I believe the stress of it

all, everything involved, trying to keep her off death row, did lead to cancer infesting my body in that a few months later. You know, the trial of Jodi Arias and the murder of Travis Alexander just captivated the whole country. Everyone was watching the trial. It's had everything people want to see, I guess, violence, death, sex, scandal. But there were so many aspects of it that went so much deeper. For instance, to Alexis, the fact that they were part of the Mormon religion seemed to it was like a curiosity to so

many people. Why is that? I think it's because the Mormon religion is not as familiar to people across the country as other religions, Christianity. And so people tend to have thought of it as a cult. And so they saw that there was this what many people called ritualistic murder, which it wasn't. It was just Jodi going crazy and murdering somebody.

And they tied it into this church. But also because there were visual images of it. When Jodi met Travis, he was a very well-respected member of the church and he brought her into the church and she was baptized and became a member of the church. So there was a photograph of her baptism. And so when people have visual images of things they can see, it makes it so much more compelling. And then she dragged in the fact that after she got baptized, I think she said that she and Travis had sex. I'm not sure what kind of sex I'm allowed to say on your show.

Let's just say not the regular sex. And in some states, it's still considered sodomy. Go ahead. So it just made it so much more salacious. And Travis was such an upstanding member of this church. And people loved him. And he was such a good person. And so she joined the church only because of him.

And in fact, after she was convicted, church kicked her out, excommunicated her, said they did not want her in. You know, another thing that is always interesting to me, Dr. Bethany Marshall, and I don't know what it means, is she immediately gave all of his friends the skeeve. They were all creeped out by Jodi Arias. I mean, even when they first met her, they're like, man, get rid of her. Why? What was it about her? It was just an

instinct. They all hated her. Well, I keep thinking about borderline personality disorder. She had a severe personality disorder, Nancy. And most women who kill do have borderline personality disorder. And one of the things you notice with borderlines is that when you meet them, they're intensely idealizing, like I was talking about. They treat you like you're so special. They put you on a pedestal. And they're kind of strangely flirtatious with everybody. The flirtation is a type of manipulation. They're trying to be at the center of everybody's universe, men, women, everybody in their path.

And so I think everybody sensed this. And the fact that you were asking about the Mormon religion, the Mormon faith, Travis Alexander was a very good person, and he was beloved by his roommates and his church. And there's really this contrast between good and evil. You know, there's this Mormon community, and then there's this woman who inserts herself into his life, ingratiates herself. It's like the fox got into the hen house somehow, don't you think? You know, and the other thing about scheming people out, I remember some photograph where she was sitting with him and his friends. And I think she either had her feet on his lap or her head on his lap. But it had a sort of a strange sexual quality. So here's this benign gathering of friends.

And she's acting kind of sexual in front of all of them. And I'm sure she did that continuously, and they thought that was really weird. Let me pause and thank our partners that are making our program possible today as we investigate behind bars, Jodi Arias, convicted killer's life and her lawsuit. Because the convicted killer Jodi Arias is now targeting the man who once stood by her side. That many credit with saving her from the death penalty. She was on trial for her lover's death. And now she has told the world that she is out for blood again. But this time on her own lawyer.

Kirk Nermy is with us. And let me thank our partner for making this possible. It is linkakc.com. Guys, you know how much I love our family dog, Fat Boy, aka Nitro. I'm always looking for new things to try with him, whether it's food, fun shoe toy, a treat, or now an amazing new collar. And it's called LinkAKC. It's so much more than a collar. It's backed by the American Kennel Club.

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Go to linkakc.com. Use code NANCY to save 30% off your order with free shipping. Code NANCY, N-A-N-C-Y. Save 30% on your order. That's a lot. Plus free shipping at linkakc.com. Linkakc.com. Code Nancy. To Kirk Nermy, Jodi Arias, former lawyer that many credit with saving her from the death penalty. Your book, Trapped with Miss Arias, Trapped with Jodi Arias, made a lot of waves. What is the single thing in there that apparently has made convicted killer Jodi Arias the most angry?

Well, again, that might be a question for her, but she seems to take umbrage with the fact that, you know, back in, say, 2011, she characterized me to my thinking as her boyfriend. It was something that is. Wait, wait, wait, wait. How'd your wife feel about that? Well, well, what goes on in Jody's head isn't necessarily in consistent with reality. And that was her view of me, not my view of her or anyone else's view of the entire situation, but it was Jody. And that's how I believe it was. And Bethany talked about the, I'm not a psychologist, but Bethany talked about that idealization and then that

component of detachment and devaluing. And I think that's kind of consistent with what I said in the book in terms of how she treated me. Because remember, in 2011, she begged through the force of two lawyers and what have you to say, Kirk needs to be on my case. He needs to be my lawyer. And now this. How surprised were you when you found out that she was actually suing you? Not at all. Because, you know, I said the other day, you know, if I'm the world's leading expert on anything, it's Jodi Arias. And this sort of action, this sort of vengeance on her part is not unsurprising to me at all. It is consistent with a pattern of men in her life. And unfortunately, you know, Mr. Alexander suffered the most in that regard.

Now, another thing that she claims is that you, Kirk Nermy, had a, quote, unprofessional and prurient interest in the sex nature of her case. Well, I mean, her case was all about sex. Every kind of sex you can think of. Sex toys, sex aids, semi-public sex, sex in the woods, blah, blah, blah. In fact, the day of Travis Alexander's murder, she shows up and they have a marathon day of sex all day. And at the end of it, she finds out he's still going to, I think it was Cancun with another woman that he had already invited to go on a trip with him. And instead of packing her bag and huffing out, like most people would do, and never talking to him again, he ends up dead. Shot 29 times, stabbed 29 times and shot with a gun, slumped over and left to rot in his shower stall. That's what happened.

So, Kirk, are you surprised that she behind bars is telling people that you had a, quote, prurient interest in her sex life? I mean, when you try to handle the case, you can't help but hear about her sex life. That's exactly right. And it doesn't surprise me. It's just a mechanism for her to attack me and try to embarrass me. And we've seen that habit, if you will, with other men in her life as well, right? We consistently see that throughout her life. Bethany, you know, did a good job, I think, of stating some of the realities that we see with Ms. Arias. Guys, I am talking to Kirk Nermy, the trial lawyer for Jody Arias, now behind bars for the murder, the brutal murder of Travis Alexander with me. Alexis Tereschuk, investigative reporter for RadarOnline.com, Dr. Bethany Marshall, LA Psychoanalyst, and Alan Duke also joining me. To you, Alexis Tereschuk,

when you look back on the evidence at trial, was there any way to separate Jodi Arias from sex? That seemed to be her hold on Travis. Not only was it her hold on Travis, it was everything in her life. The entire trial was she left home early. She moved in with a boyfriend. She lived with him for a little while. She moved out. She moved in with an ex-boyfriend. Everything in her life was about sex, including, which I had said earlier, the very first time she gets baptized, she and Travis have sex after it. The recordings that she said were, you showed that Travis was obsessed with sex, were her talking about how much she wanted him to tie her up and tie her to a tree. And she said, Oh, it's so debasing. I like it. Her entire relationship with Travis was based on sex. And when he decided he didn't want

to have it with her anymore, cause she was crazy. That's when she decided to kill him. You know, I left out the phone sex and the photos. Oh, yes. Speaking of photos, Dr. Bethany Marshall, a major part of the trial, I thought, was when a digital camera was discovered and it was full of shots, sex shots, including Arias naked. And they were taken just before he's killed, like in the hours before his death.

Do you recall that? Nancy, I do. I was actually just about to mention that, that she photographed everything. So the marathon sex session, just before she stabbed him 29 times, she continually photographed both of them throughout that day. She had many, many pictures of the two of them having sex. And Alexis was describing beautifully this history of sexualization of all of her relationships. And what women with borderline personality do is they have what we call in my field merger fantasies. They want to be one with their love objects.

They want to reduce the distance between them and the other person. And then they use sex to manipulate. They use sex to create some kind of excitement to hold on to the other person. So sex becomes the glue that holds the relationship together. And so you have the idealization and then the devaluation that I talked about, but you also have clinging and then rejecting behavior. This is the hallmark of personality disorders, that when they meet somebody, they want to have sex right away. They want to marry that person right away. They want to move in.

That person becomes their whole life. And the minute they feel the tiniest, littlest, eensy-beensiest little bit of rejection, then they move in for the kill. That is the hallmark of a personality disorder, is clinging, merging, and then at the first sign of rejection, moving in to destroy and attack the love object. If you understand nothing else about personality disorders, if you just hold on to that, it really tells you a lot about human nature. And for your listeners who are listening into this show, people who are dating, when you meet somebody who wants to just move in on you right away, wants to have sex right away, wants to marry you, I mean, all of a sudden they put you on a pedestal and you are their whole entire world. You're going to get knocked off that pedestal in a very rude way because the idealization always leads to devaluation. They're opposite sides of the same coin

in terms of how these people attach. Take a listen to what the jury heard. Would you agree that you're the person who actually slit Mr. Alexander's throat from ear to ear? Yes. Would you also agree that you're the individual that stabbed him in the upper torso? Yes. And you're doing all of this according to your version of events. You're doing this to this individual after you have already shot them, right? Yes.

Correct? I believe so. Well, no. Do you remember previously talking to us about how he was coming at you and he was this horrible man with this mean face? Do you remember telling me that? Yes, I didn't say he was horrible. Okay. Thank you for correcting me, but do you remember telling us that he was a mean man?

Not today. Well, previously you did say that he was a mean man? Not today. Well previously, previously you did say that he was a mean man, correct? I think I did, yes. And on this particular occasion you told us that he was cursing at you, right? Yes. And that he threw you down, right? Yes. That he chased you down, right? Yes. And this is the individual that you shot first, right? I didn't know if I shot him. It just really went off. The gun went off, right? You can at least acknowledge that. Yes.

That's something that you did here, correct? Yes. With me is Kirk Nurmi, the trial lawyer for now infamous killer Jodi Arias, who is simmering behind bars, drawing her, quote, art, reading her love letters, reading books, chillaxing, and watching cable TV. Kirk Nurmi, how did you keep a straight face when the jury saw pictures of your client butt naked on Travis Alexander's bed in the hours right before he was murdered? Well, it was evidence, you know, and this is in the courtroom is a bit of a theater and you present evidence.

We talked a little bit earlier about, you know, the sexual aspects of this case. There was it was saturated. It was just another piece of evidence. Unlike Ms. Arias' claims, I had no obsession with it. It was evidence like any other. Joining me, Dr. Bethany Marshall, LA psychoanalyst, Alexis Tereschuk, RadarOnline.com, and Kirk Nermey, Jody Arias' trial lawyer, who many credit with saving her from death row. It's legal war. Kirk Nermy, her former lawyer, ready to go to court to fight Jodi Arias in an exploding court battle. So, Kirk Nermy, explain to me what you hope to gain out of going to court. Well, I hope to gain the opportunity,

I guess, to let people know what I really think and what I really feel. I think a lot of people, and this is part of the reason I wrote Trapped with Miss Arias, is a lot of people felt like I supported her, like I believed her story, like I was a fan of Miss Arias, what have you, because they saw that visualization in court. When the reality was, I didn't get to pick my client. I was there to do a job. I had a job to do. I stood up to the world to save her life.

I stood up to cancer to save mine. And now I'm more than willing to stand up to Miss Arias to make sure the world understands what I truly feel. I've got a question for you, Kirk Nermy. I would never have known that you felt this way during the trial. Explain to those listening now how you tried to get off the case, what you did to try to get out of representing Jodi Arias, and how you steeled yourself to go in there and fight the good fight for her. You know, in 2009, when I was assigned the case, Nancy, I was working at the public defender's office

and didn't have a choice in who my client was and really didn't know anything about her. And by the time 2011 rolled around, I was ready to leave the public defender's office, ready to leave death penalty work. And that is when I intended to leave Miss Arias behind. She objected to that. And there was a series of litigation that ended in April of 2011 where my motions to withdraw were denied. That happened again in 2000. In that fall, I was when the public defender's office was allowed to withdraw were denied. That happened again in 2000. In that fall, when the Public Defender's Office was allowed to withdraw, I moved to withdraw myself again. There was a plethora of motions to withdraw that were all denied. Once that happened, ultimately, then you ask how I could do what I had to do. It's because I was ordered by the court to do it.

And as a defense attorney, I believe in the Constitution and the Sixth Amendment, and that every person, even Ms. Arias, has a right to a fair trial and a vigorous defense. And on a personal level, beyond that, I am a person who does not believe in the death penalty. So goal number one of a death penalty attorney being saving the client's life was certainly something that on a personal level, I felt compelled to do. With me is Kirk Nermy, high profile lawyer that represented Jody Arias at trial. Dr. Bethany Marshall, L.A. psychoanalyst. Dr. Bethany, I guarantee you that Jodi Arias, to this day, thinks that she's the victim behind bars. Absolutely, she does. And when Kirk Nermy was saying that his motion to withdraw was denied,

Travis Alexander's motion to withdraw was denied, too. No man is allowed to withdraw was denied. Travis Alexander's motion to withdraw was denied too. No man is allowed to withdraw from Jodi Arias's life. And I keep going back to the idea of borderline personality disorder. Women with this disorder are very paranoid. They do not see themselves as the architect or the generator of their own experience. They think that everybody else is out to get them. They feel wronged by society. And I wouldn't be surprised if this action against Kirk Nermy not only does it parallel her actions against Travis Alexander, but it generates excitement in her life. She gets to get away from the jail. She gets to be in the limelight. She gets attention all over again. And this is what Jodi Arias is all about. She's about herself. She's about being in the limelight. And this, and one more time,

it's at another man's expense. To Alexis Tereschuk, RadarOnline.com, Dr. Bethany Marshall, and Kirk Nermy, author of Trapped with Miss Arias, Jodi Arias. Kirk, I wish you the very, very best. Thank you, Nancy. It's been a pleasure talking with you today. As always. And you know, another thing, Kirk, I just really admire your fight against cancer. I do, too. God bless you. God bless you, and stay strong, friend. Thank you. It really came at a tough time after all that, you know,

and to think there were moments when I thought, do I really want to engage in this fight? What's the point? What has my life become? And I'm glad I did. I'm glad I'm in a new place. But, yeah, it was a real struggle because, again, how this trial affected my life is just immeasurable, I guess,

and how it almost destroyed my life. How did it destroy your life? How did it affect you? Well, I think more than anything apart from you know my belief that that cancer came into my life i think it took my identity um i think that when throughout the course of the trial and even now uh when i go somewhere and i say my name is it's whatever store whatever it is um there's a fear that people will associate me with her and associate that correlation that I talked about earlier, that they think that I believe in her and what she did and the righteousness of what she did or what have you, that that association.

I said in a recent interview that when I die, if it's covered on the news, it'll be because I was Jody Arias' lawyer. I picture cancer, and my legacy would probably be as Ms. Arias' lawyer. So yes, it's in fact a new great deal. You know, Kirk Nermy, that's not how I see you at all. And I'm very privileged to count you as a friend and colleague. And I want to thank you for being with me and all of us listening now. Kirk Nurmey, author of Trapped with Miss Arias. It's available on amazon.com. Thank you, friend. Thank you, Nancy. I want to thank our partner making today's program possible, making it possible for you

to join us today. It's LegalZoom. And all you business owners know how important it is to keep moving forward. But so many times issues pop up to take your time and focus away from growing your business. When it comes to things like reviewing contracts, registering trademarks, staying current on fees and permits, contracts, hiring issues, LegalZoom.com simplifies your life it was created 16 years ago by the very brightest minds in law and technology and like i always say when you don't know a horse look at his track record legalzoom has already helped over 2 million business owners easily affordably navigate the legal system with confidence because you know what you don't have to wake up at 3 a.m and think oh my stars billable hours stacking up behind my back by your law firm legal zoom is not a law firm instead you get the advice you need to answer

your business questions at fixed rates through legal zoom's nationwide network of independent lawyers take pressure off yourself go to legal LegalZoom.com now. Take care of business before the year winds down. Special savings. Enter code Nancy, N-A-N-C-Y, at the referral box at checkout. Code Nancy equals special savings. Only at LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom, thank you for what you do for American business owners. And thank you for being our partner today. And now we travel to North Carolina and the very latest and the story of a missing girl that we covered. Just a beautiful, beautiful girl, Ashanti Billy, a teen girl of 19. She disappeared in September en route to work at a sandwich shop on Joint

Expeditionary-based Little Creek Fort Story in Norfolk, please. I'm begging everybody. Please pray for my baby. Please. Please pray for Ashanti Billy, my daughter, my baby. She's my everything. Please pray for her. Bring my baby home today.

Everyone, please share. Anyone you know, just help me bring my baby Ashanti home. Please. How did this girl, with her whole life in front of her, disappear? Then we find out, hundreds of miles away, her body is found near a church. Right now, a crack in the case. Joining me, Bobbi Maxwell, Crime Stories. Big crack in the case.

What happened? Yes, Nancy, a lot on 45-year-old Eric Brown, who actually, they did a lot of investigative work on this. And finally, almost two months later, they've come up with so much. There was DNA from him on Ashanti Billy and the clothing and such. And also, the place where she was found was 300 yards from his childhood home. He had cell phone data doing internet searches of the crime even before Ashanti's body was found. And apparently he was homeless, even though he was a retired 21-year-old Navy vet. He spent a lot of time at that naval base,

including multiple times in the Blimpie sub shop where Ashanti worked. Straight out to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute crime scene expert. Cheryl McCollum, when you and I first started covering Ashanti Billy's case, this is so close to what you were saying. Analyze what we know now, Cheryl McCollum. Well, again, Nancy, we all talked about it that day, but that church was very critical to me because where somebody chooses to dump a body tells a lot about the perpetrator. And that particular church being, you know, so many hundreds of miles away from where she was kidnapped told me that he absolutely knew that area and knew that place. And of course, we know now that not only was it,

you know, 300 yards from his childhood home, that he actually went to vacation Bible school. Well, I mean, you can look and I'll give you anecdotal examples of what you know, 300 yards from his childhood home that he actually went to vacation Bible school. Well, I mean, you can look and I'll give you anecdotal examples of what you know, statistically. I mean, look at top mom, Casey Anthony, Kelly's body was found wrapped in trash bags like she was trash and thrown into a swampy wooded area, which was right behind the elementary school where top mom went. In fact, where the body was was a spot where she and her friends would hang out and smoke when they were kids and hide out i mean look at scott peterson lacey peterson's body was found it washed up at san francisco bay

he was fishing there that was one of his fishing holes i mean it goes on and on i mean look at gacy he hid bodies in the crawl space of his home. It's human nature. So what you're saying and what I'm trying to say is it's very significant where a body is found. It's human nature. They want to be somewhere that they are comfortable. They're going to spend a little bit of time there. So they want to be sure that they're not going to be seen.

They know the way to get in. They know the way to get out. They know the way to get out. They know that nobody's going to be around there. They picked it deliberately. So, again, it gives you insight to that person. A 45-year-old Navy veteran now being held in the brutal murder of a young girl, Ashanti Billy. Cheryl McCollum, what do you make of him, the alleged perp? Well, I mean, he clearly was stalking her. He knew her. He went there every day.

He engaged with her conversation. He was inappropriate with her. So he probably was fixated on her. And he made his mind up that he was going to have her one way or the other. And the only way that he could have her was to kidnap her and force himself on her and he made his mind up that he was going to have her one way or the other and the only way that he could have her was to kidnap her and force himself on her which it appears is exactly what he did we know her pants were in the car and they had mud on them so that would tell me that he disrobed her at the scene and took the pants with him which would not be unusual um they haven't told us the manner of death that I know so far, but I do know that they said that she was basically battered.

So, again, a lot of rage from him. He lived on and off that base, a different building. So, yes, he was homeless, but he certainly knew his way around there. He's admitted to being there the day that she went missing, but, of course, claims he blacked out and didn't know whether or not he heard her, which is not going to be an excuse that holds up in any way. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, L.A. psychoanalyst, Dr. Bethany, give me, shrink it, tell me what you think of this psychologically. Well, I agree with everything Cheryl said. She described it so beautifully. What I can add is the fact that he was homeless means he's very low functioning, maybe even mentally ill. So he might have killed her because he didn't know what else to do with her. battered when she tried to resist his sexual advances. He probably mistook it as rejection

and flew into a rage and battered her. And then once he battered her so badly, he didn't know what else to do. So then he killed her. I agree with Cheryl McCollum. He went to a place that was very familiar to him, the back of the church where he went to vacation Bible school, but also it's near where his mother lives. And these criminals, they dump the body. The dump site is usually a familiar place, but it's often a place where they grew up and they were nurtured by their own mothers. You know, when criminals get out of jail or when they escape jail, you know how they always go back to where their mothers are. They have this strange fixation that that's where they want to be. I think obviously he was stalking her. According to one customer at the Blimpie Subway Shop,

he had made some crude sexual comments to her. And we know that men who stalk, they become preoccupied with the victim. But not only are they preoccupied with gaining proximity to the victim, they're preoccupied with the idea that they've been rejected by the victim. That's why they punished the victim. So he was both admiring and desirous of getting close to her and having sex with her, but he was enraged at her for having rejected him. And I think that's really the motivation behind this crime. Again, here is Ashanti Billy's mom just after her daughter's body was found. Hi, my name is Brandy Billy. I'm the mom of Ashanti Markayla Billy. As many of you know, we were searching for our daughter because she was missing since September 18th. I'm sure most of you have already heard that her body was located in Charlotte, North Carolina.

I just want to say thank you to everyone that helped us spread the word that she was missing. Everyone that had a tip, everyone that shared and posted, sent their prayers. Just thank you. That meant a lot to us as we were searching for her, to her father and I and her loved ones. Thank you for all the community support we received in the Hampton Roads, Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, Norfolk area. Even to our family and friends in the DMV where we're from, thank you. Those far and wide across the country, thank you. Ashanti's life was taken from her, but her spirit wasn't taken from us at all.

We're gonna continue to live the life that she would have wanted us to live, as well as spreading her legacy as we move forward. Our plan is to set up a scholarship in her name with the Art Institute of Virginia Beach for Culinary Arts. We'll also be forming a non-profit organization to help other families of missing loved ones to provide guidance for them, help and assistance for them to bring their loved ones home. There has to be something for adults when they go missing. You have alerts for 18 and under. You have alerts

for 65 and older. What we don't have is something for anyone in the middle. I wholeheartedly believe that had there been some type of alert that was able to be put out for her she may have been coming home with us of her own free will but she's still coming home with us we're taking our baby home where she can rest in peace with her loved ones so again I just want to say thank you. Thank you. Thank you all and bless you all. Thank you for your prayers. They meant the world to her father and I, to her family, her friends and her loved ones.

So just please continue to use social media in a positive way because that's what we, majority of everything we saw was positive. So thank you. We love you and Ashanti loves you. Thank you. To Bobby Maxwell, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Bobby, how do authorities believe the murder took place? Well, they believe that he actually was in that area of the Blimpie shop. And they saw her car circling the restaurant when she was going to work that morning. And then sometime between her going to that workplace and 30 minutes when they saw the car leaving,

Eric Brown abducted her and left the base. That's where they're trying to fill in the holes. You know, Cheryl McCollum, when I was in law school, trying to put myself through law school with, I think at one time I was working three jobs. I was at a sandwich shop. And I remember being there at night all by myself in a strip mall, you know, just sitting there studying my law books, waiting for a customer to come in. And, you know, you look back on it, Cheryl, and it's so stupid. But yet it's still happening every day. A single person alone, like in a blimpie or

where I was, Zed's sandwich shop. It just, it, and it was, she was just, you know, like easy pickings for this guy. She was easy pickings, but I'll tell you something else. She probably also felt very comfortable being on a military base. And she knew him. So Nancy, even though he had been inappropriate, even though he was homeless, she saw him every day. So even though she might have thought, well, he's a little crazy or he's homeless or whatever, she thought he was probably harmless for the most part

because there was familiarity with him. Right now, our prayers and thoughts with Ashanti Billy's family to Bobby Maxwell, Cheryl McCollum, and Dr. Bethany Marshall. Thank you. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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