Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - JODI ARIAS SELLING ARTWORK FOR THOUSANDS, STABBED LOVER DEAD IN SHOWER

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Jodi Arias is creating a cottage industry for herself behind bars. With a little help from her family, Arias is selling artwork online and has a website and an Instagram account promoting and selling her artwork.  She begins selling her artwork through her brother and his Ebay account.  Arias claims when her art begins to gain recognition, eBay bans it quote "on the grounds that I was a felon."  Jodi Arias claims, "random opportunists" are exploiting her by making money on a "postcard I may or may not have written", so, with the help of her family, Arias sets up her own online store and art gallery where she offers up paintings from $28 to $40 and a set if collectible postcards for $34.95.  Her website claims an acrylic painting titled "Beyond the Horizon" is selling for $2,500.  Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Derek Smith  - Criminal Defense Attorney, website: dwsmithlegal.com Dr. Bethany Marshall  - Psychoanalyst Author "Deal Breaker, https://www.drbethanymarshall.com/, Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter:@DrBethanyLive Andy Kahan  - Director of Victim Services and Advocacy at Crime Stoppers of Houston, crime-stoppers.org Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic Susan Hendricks - Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi”, IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Incredible. I thought I had misread when I learned convicted killer Jodi Arias. Remember her? Jodi Arias stabbed her boyfriend, Travis Alexander. There's an argument about how many times she stabbed him dead because there were so many stab wounds, close to 30, that they were overlapping each other. And you couldn't tell if it was one stab or two or three and then capped it off by shooting him in the head, leaving him to decompose in a shower stall. Why?

Because he dared to ask another woman on a date after a marathon sex session with Arius. She just couldn't take it. Jodi Arius is selling her artwork for thousands. One of her pieces of art is going for, let me check this, maybe I need glasses, for $2,500, nearly $3,000. Hey, you know she's just getting a magazine and tracing over it, right? That said, have you ever heard of blood money? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

A whirlwind romance between aspiring photographer Jody Arias and salesman Travis Alexander turns sour. The explosive pair is on and off again. but this time Travis swears they're done for good. And there's a reason he swore to his friends he was done with her for good. When we say a stalker, we normally picture a husband or boyfriend, an ex, looking in your window, calling you nonstop, following you around, putting a GPS tracker on your vehicle. You don't normally think of a woman, Jodi Arias, like Jodi Arias, as being a stalker. But, oh boy, she was a stalker and then some.

You don't believe me? Listen. What's going on? A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom. We hadn't heard from him for a while. We think he's dead. His roommate just went in there and said there's lots of blood. I didn't go in, but I can give you the phone to someone who went in there. Yes, please. Can you? Hello? Hi. So what's going on? He's dead. He's in his bedroom in the shower. Okay. How did this happen? Do you have any idea? No, we have no idea. Everyone's been wondering about him for a few days.

She said that there was blood. So is it coming from his head? It's all over the place. With me, renowned expert Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator who has conducted thousands of death investigations, be they natural causes, accidents, suicide or homicide. Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit new series podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, you and I went round and round and round about how many times Travis Alexander was murdered. And we're about to do it again. It's a rematch. But one thing you said at the time of the murder that stuck with me, and I'll never forget it. You described some drops. I don't mean throwback. I don't mean a transfer drops of blood on Travis Alexander's sink.

And the way you described it, he had so many wounds, but these were drops, like round, circular drops. And you described how he would have looked into his bathroom mirror and seen himself dying. Hit the nail on the head, Nancy. And I remember this after all these years thinking back to this. You know, those droplets that you're referring to are, in fact, some are droplets. But Nancy, here's the really ghastly thing about this.

Many of these are projected droplets, and it's what's referred to as bloody aspirate. And I'm going to break that down for you just so people can understand what this man went through. After he was initially attacked in the shower, he is aware of this. He leans over the sink. You can see the contact, the contact points where his hands were on the sink. He's leaning forward, looking at himself in the mirror. And Nancy, he aspirated blood down into his airway and spit it back out. So he's aspirating, blowing it out. And you get these fine little dots of blood that were all over the place at this point in time.

And it's a horrible event to imagine. This guy's just taking a shower. Can you imagine suddenly you're getting stabbed in the back by this demon? And then, I don't know, she moves out of the way. And he was found decomposing in the shower. But I'm looking at the sink, and I will never forget this photo. And if you look to the left of the faucet toward the front of the sink, you see two of the drops you were describing. And then if you go right, you see another drop. Now, it's amazing to me that you, as a death scene investigator,

could distinguish the difference between those drops and all the other blood. But now that you told me about it, I see it. It's like looking up at the stars. And if you don't know what you're doing, you can't see the constellations. Looking at this blood tells a story. And you can even determine which blood was aspiration. In other words, he was bleeding when he breathed out of his mouth or nose. You would get a fine spray, especially from the nose, of blood. Yes. Yeah, you're absolutely right with this, Nancy. And he would be bearing witness to this.

This is one of the issues with me after we've covered this for so many years. He's actually eyeballing himself in the mirror. He has not lost his sight, his ability to see, if you can imagine. He's slowly bleeding out. He has an awareness. sight, his ability to see, if you can imagine. He's slowly bleeding out. He has an awareness. He's getting lightheaded, but he's also regurgitating blood and blowing it out at the same time. You've got passive droplets, which, like a bloody nose, kind of drop downward. And then you have these projected droplets that are very fine.

Hold on. Joe Scott, Joe Scott. It's just, I compare it to the scene of an arson where accelerant is used. You can tell where the fire started because you'll see accelerant or you'll see the major portion of the burning, the most destruction in that spot where the fire started. And here in the shower, that's where we see an abundance of blood. So would you agree that's where it started? What do you think? Well, what you're seeing here is passive blood flow. And a lot of this is decomposing as well. But draw your attention to the right aspect to the shower wall there. When he was placed

into that shower, that's actually probably where his shoulder was resting, that kind of swipe that you have right there. And then the settling of the dark blood headed down the drain, that's a combination of the seepage of the blood and also a combination of decompositional fluid. She left this guy to literally decompose in his own bathroom, Nancy. There are very few people that can follow an explanation by Joe Scott Morgan. But before I go to Andy Kahn, I want you to hear what pops up immediately in the 911 call. You're a good friend of Travis's, correct? Yes, I am. Okay.

Has he been depressed at all, thinking about committing suicide, anything like that? I don't think he's been committing suicide. He's been really depressed because he broke up with this girl, and he was all upset about that. But I don't think he would actually kill himself over that. Has he been threatened by anyone recently? Yes, he has. He has an ex-girlfriend that's been bothering him and following him and slashing tires and things like that. And do you know the ex-girlfriend's name?

Her name is Jodi. And do you know the ex-girlfriend's name? Her name is Jodi. And there you go. Right then in the 911 call, Dr. Bethany Marshall, there you're hearing Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of L.A. at DrBethanyMarshall.com. She appears in the show Paris in Love on Peacock. She's everywhere. Her book Deal Breaker, When to Work on a Relationship and When to Walk Away, specifically pertinent to today's material, today's case. I cannot believe

this woman is selling artwork for nearly $3,000 per sketch. That's a whole nother can of worms. Can I talk to you about the stalking? Remember those photos of Jodi Arias? Warning everybody, just go ahead and buckle your seatbelt. The jury saw this, as did I. Jodi Arias all sprawled out. I can't remember if she had on underwear or was naked. But anyway, on his bed, they had, oh dear, is that her? I had to turn

upside down. Is that the day of the marathon sex session? There's some a lot more racy than that. Anyway, she has a marathon sex session with Travis Alexander, not judging, don't care. But it's only after all day in the sack that she says, so you still taking that woman to Cancun on that trip? He goes, yeah. These two were broken up. She had no right to demand he not date other people. They were broken up over her stalking, slashing his tires, showing up at his house, leaving Cinnabon on his car at five o'clock in the morning under the pretext of getting him breakfast. B.S. She's trying to find out if anybody spent the night over at his place. He goes on and on and on, Bethany. You know, Nancy, he's doing what abuse victims do. He's welcoming the abuser right back into the home because she convinces him

that she's not going to hurt him. So all of this marathon sex, she probably has borderline sociopathic personality disorder. And women who are borderline use sex to hook the other person in, to have control over them. She probably had what we call merger fantasies in my field. This is somebody who's so disturbed. They want to merge into the love object. They want to be one with that person. Any separation between them and that person, even if that person picks up the phone or calls their mother or goes away with somebody else feels like an abandonment and a betrayal. And when they feel abandoned, they feel deflated. And when they feel deflated, they become enraged. Women with borderline personality disorder, they have this oceanic rage that leads to plotting and planning and plotting and planning. She was probably planning this for a long, long time.

And I'm imagining that marathon sex session. She probably thought that they had a unique and special relationship, that he was going to come back to her. And then when he was honest, which I admired him for, and said, yeah, I'm going on this vacation, she just snapped. Her emotions outpaced her ability to think. And what's interesting about the sound you just played, the roommates knew that Jodi Arias was going to do this. Remember that party, Nancy, we all covered this, where they were all hanging out, I think, at the apartment. And she either had her head in his lap or his legs across his lap.

It's like she was marking her territory. He belonged to her and nobody else in her mind. And it's always amazing to me that people can name the killer in the 911 call. It's like everybody knows. Of course, that's not evidence. Can't come in as evidence. But when I have 10 people saying she did it, I listen. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me right now is a very special guest, a longtime colleague that has become a friend. And as weird as it may sound, we bonded over toenails. Not his toenails, not my toenails, but the toenails of Angel Ramirez, correct? Wasn't that his name?

Angel Rosentes Ramirez, correct? Wasn't that his name? Or Angel Rosentes Ramirez. What I know is he's a serial killer selling his toenails from behind bars and people actually paid for it. When you told me that, I said a technical legal term, BS. And you went, I don't know. Come to my office. I followed you. And your office at that time was like a treasure trove. Now, let me say a Pandora's box of evils of all these people around the country that were selling murderabilia.

And you you coined that phrase. I stole it. But you made that up. And now Arius is doing it. Yeah. I mean, you have this giant industry that sprung up primarily from the internet in which you have serial killers, mass murder, school shooters, high profile killers like Yodi Arius, who like it or not, has a big name. She has a following and they have found a way to continue to enable their narcissistic behavior I mean obviously she has a giant ego and she is simply selling her artwork no one should be able to

rob rape and murder then turn around and make a off it I don't care you know if you're a firm believer in capitalism or whatever this is where you got to draw the line and the has to stop here you cannot continue to allow a convicted murderer to essentially operate a business behind prison bars. I'm just absolutely shocked because most of the time in my research and dealings, most of the time prisons are not aware that a particular inmate is selling their goods through third parties. But the Arizona Department of Corrections is completely complicit because they're aware of it and they're just shrugging their shoulders saying there's nothing we can do. To quote you, Nancy, that's BS because most prisons have policies in the prison that state you cannot operate a business unless you have their permission. I cannot believe that the Arizona Department of Corrections would give their permission

to allow Jody Arias to profit from killing Travis Alexander. That is absolutely absurd. I've not seen that in my 25 years of researching this industry. His bedroom is where in the house? It's upstairs. And if you go up the stairs, it's on the left. It's the first door on your left. It's the only door on your left.

Okay. And it's just a big master suite bedroom up there. bedroom of the day. And, um, she's talking to his friend right now. There's a girl that's been stalking him and she's trying, and he's trying to, uh,

he might know some information. I hope my phone doesn't die. I'm on, like, one bar of battery. Okay. Well, I'm on like one bar of battery. Okay. Well, I'm just going to keep you on the phone until officers arrive, either officers or paramedics arrive, okay? Okay. I think I can hear the sirens now. Where he is, Travis Alexander. Friends haven't heard from him for days.

They're supposed to take off for Cancun in only a matter of hours. But Travis is nowhere to be found. What happened to Travis Alexander? We know now. His then lover, Spurnd, who had been stalking him, murdered him in a brutal fashion. The brutality, I've seen a lot of murders and the murder of Travis Alexander is one of the most brutal murders I've ever seen. Now she's selling her artwork online. Wait, this is her artwork, not mine. There you go. There's a lady straddling a man.

I'm not the church lady. I don't care, but I don't like Arius making money off of it. Take a look at her. Oh, there's a self-portrait at Perryville Prison. I guess that's what she thinks she looks like. Okay, there you go. I didn't know they had fingernail polish behind bars. See the nature of her art? Check it out. Jodi Arias's artwork. Now, you heard Andy Kahn joining us saying that the jail is turning a blind eye, and I agree. She's not creating art for her own enjoyment or fulfillment. She's creating it to sell it. Now, what she doing, the money that I don't know, but she is selling this art and it is blood money. What happened?

Listen to this. I was actually watching a movie with my girlfriend at the time or my wife now. And I remember getting a knock on my door and Travis's friends came to the door and they said, have you seen Travis? And I said, well, no, I haven't seen Travis. He's supposed to be in Cancun or out on vacation right now. And they said, yes, he is, but he's supposed to be here with me, with Mimi. And so I said, well, have you checked his bedroom?

And that was my first thought. So they said, well, have you checked his bedroom? And that was my first thought. So they said, well, no, we haven't. The door is locked. And I said, I think he keeps a spare set of keys downstairs. So I went downstairs and I searched for him and grabbed a few sets of keys and came back upstairs and tried a few different sets of keys. And one of them happened to be his bedroom key. And as soon as the door was opened, my heart just sank. And listen to more of what Travis's friend, Zach Billings, tells me. She came up to me and gave me a big hug and just said, I'm, you know, isn't this just horrible? I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

And she asked me where I was living at the time. And that was about the extent of our interaction after that point. Did she ask you any questions regarding your discovery of the body? She asked me just a brief of what happened as far as my interaction with anybody else. I had the police talk to me, and she already knew at that point that I had seen the body and just asked what the process was going through, what I was going through. Joining me now, Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist, author of a brand new book, Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan, thank you for being with us. Explain to me, where is Jodi Arias and how is she

enabled to sell her art for a profit online? Yeah, Nancy, good to be here. I couldn't believe it when I heard it. And I remember covering with you the Jodi Arias trial day in and day out. And the day she was called to that stand and everything she said on the stand, I put nothing past her, re-victimizing his family, his seven siblings over and over again. Remember this, Nancy, the headstand? I would put nothing past her. I also remember her walking in, claiming she was an abuse victim, holding up a t-shirt that said survivor on it, then begging the jurors for her life

and showing a slideshow of her artwork. So I put nothing past her. I just wish she would donate the money to the family members of Travis. I remember her saying, I'll help people, please spare my life. I'll do good in prison. Well, what is she doing that's so good except benefiting herself off the murder of Travis? Derek Smith joining me, high profile criminal defense attorney, and you can find him at DWS, DW Smith Legal.

Repeat, DW Smith Legal. Derek, you know your way around the courtroom. What in the hay went wrong? Because, you know, I guess you have to play the cards that's dealt you because her attorney and I spoke many, many times. At first, she claimed she had no idea what happened, what I wasn't there. Then she was tracked across the desert. She actually filled up big tanks of gas, put them in her trunk so she wouldn't be spotted at a gas station. She goes all the way across the desert to get to Travis Alexander. She gets there. Then she, wait for it, Derek Smith, I could just see you doing a backflip when you find out about this evidence, if it's your client. She had a digital camera that she was using to take naughty photos of herself during their sex marathon

and ding dong put it in the washing machine the digicam and the cops find it and guess what it survived and they actually see a picture of her foot and leg in the photo. And then those clothes she was wearing in that photo are traced back to her. So first she says, I was there. I don't know anything about it. Then the digicam shows up in the washer and she goes, okay, I was there.

And two ninjas, I think it was two, just all in black, of course, for dramatic flair, broke in. They kill him. I run for it.

And then by the end, she climbed. Oh, it was self-defense. What do you do with that, Derek Smith? Oh, you've seen this many times before dealing with victims on the prosecutorial side and, of course, on the defensive side. Stories change all the time when you have just mountains of evidence against the defendant. And in this case, it was self-preservation. You know, the first thing is deny, deny, deny. And then the second thing is, OK, I'm caught.

How am I going to get out of this? And you can tell the rabbit hole that these defendants dig themselves deeper and deeper. And then once they get to me or someone like me on the defense, what are we going to do? You've already pretty much buried yourself. And all we can do is try to mitigate at this point, you know, work with the prosecution, work with, you know, the detectives, the police officers. And I mean, they do a good enough job to find this evidence that these defendants think, hey, I'm smarter than them. I'm going to be able to, like you said, throw this evidence in the washing machine, in the dryer, get rid of it.

No, sorry. It doesn't work like that. Our detectives and our law enforcement are much better than these defendants. Derek Smith is joining us. High profile lawyer in Ohio. He's tried a lot of cases. He's at dwsmithlegal.com. Derek, can I just get you to confess to a common defense tactic? And that is you say, no, no, it had nothing to do with it.

And you're kind of stalling, waiting to see what the state's evidence is going to be. And then let's just pretend you find a fingerprint. Then you go, OK, yeah, you know what? I was there, but not the day of the murder. Oh no, I was dating him. And so my fingerprints are all over that place. All right. Then you find out about the digicam with the date and the timestamp on it. Then you say something like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah. That's not my digicam. Then you see her face on it. And you go, OK, that is my digicam.

But those pictures were from a different time. And obviously, the time and date stamp are wrong. OK, then that's disproved. I mean, do you tailor your defense based on the state's evidence as it unfolds. Of course, you know that. I mean, ideally, we tell our clients not to speak. They have a right to not talk. The more they talk, generally, the more they can damage the case. It is our job as defense attorneys to sort through the evidence, to make sure that everything

was done constitutionally, and then speak with our clients to figure out, you know, how did this evidence get there? How are your fingerprints there? Why are these videos of you there? And then tailor defense accordingly. A friend of ours is standing in his bedroom. How did this happen? Do you have any idea?

He has an ex-girlfriend that's been bothering him and following him and flashing tires and things like that. And he's been following him for a long time. And he's been following him for a long time. And he's been following him for a long time. And he's been following him for a long time. And he's been following him for a long time. And he's been following him for a long time. And he's been following him for a long time. And he's been? He has an ex-girlfriend that's been bothering him and following him and thrashing tires and things like that. And there's a girl that's been stalking him.

His name is Jody. And now Jody Arias, who stabbed Travis Alexander, unarmed Travis Alexander, while he's in the shower. Joe Scott, what's your final tally now after many discussions with me about how many times he was stabbed? It has to be at least 30. It's hard. It's indeterminate. But there's injuries you're missing here, Nancy. If you want to go down this brutal road, he wasn't just stabbed.

He had his throat cut from ear to ear. Oh, and by the way, I don't know if folks notice this, but those pictures of his ankles, I've often held that while he was trying to escape from her, when he's in that hallway, that little walkway there, she stomped on this man's ankles while he was there to try to keep him down. Oh, and by the way, if that wasn't enough, she takes a pistol and after he's dead, and I still hold that this was a post-mortem shot because there's no hemorrhage in the wound track, she shot him in the head and then drags him back to the shower and leaves like the coward that she was. I started to comment on one of the aspects of your answer, but just the brutality, the brutality that she inflicted upon him. And now she wants us to buy her art and line her pockets. I don't know what she's...

Susan Hendricks joining us, investigative journalist and author. What does she spend it on? I know. I was wondering that too. At first, I thought it maybe would fall under the son of Sam law, but maybe because it's not directly connected to the crime. But it's just horrific. I wonder if she has that money and has extra, I don't know, some commissary, some money in prison to do what she wants to do. And I did hear that one of the guards even bought one of them, of the cow, I believe. So it's just, it's unbelievable. Oh, yes, I was reading about that. I think one of the guards, quote, inspired it because under her prints, she explains what inspired the art.

Okay, everybody, get your barf bag ready. Because not only is she quite the artiste making a lot of money, she's also a singer. Now, hold on. Let's see if she hits the high note. Listen. Hear the angel voices. Oh, night divine. Oh, night when Christ was born. Oh, night divine. Oh, night.

I guess she hid it in a way. Okay, to you, Andy Khan. This woman, this woman, think about it, Andy, looks are deceiving. Have you seen that string of photos that are being shown of her looking really pretty? She's not really pretty because the way I imagine her, the way I envision her is the truth of her leaving the scene of the murder, literally dripping in blood and then hopping in a car as the blood dried under her fingernails and driving to the next lover where she literally hopped on him and straddled him, which is evocative of one of her photos, one of her paintings, so-called paintings. I mean, just what?

Here's what's missing from this. Travis Alexander. This is all about Jodi Arias. Can you imagine what family members, friends of Travis Alexander are now going through? It is probably one of the most nauseating and disgusting feelings in the world when you find out the person who murdered your loved one now has items being hawked on the World Wide Web for pure profit simply because she murdered him. That is the only reason why she is relevant. And all this does is feeds into her insatiable ego. For the life of me, Arizona Department of Corrections, and I hope you hear me loudly and clearly, you have power. She is an inmate in your prison. How in the hell can you allow her to ship out artwork and have prison guards also coming

by for visits, commenting and buying her artwork? Shame on you, Arizona Department of Corrections, because you're the one that's allowing her to continue to feel relevant by having her name in the public and why we're doing this show. I don't care. You just shouldn't be able to rob, rape and murder and and turn around and make a buck off of it. It's that simplistic. And Jodi Harris, this should be the last time we talk about her. I know for a fact, Andy, that the jail, the prison, the CI Correctional Institute in which she's being held does know about her artwork. I mean,

if you can believe anything she says, I guess you got to take it with a box of salt. Because she writes underneath the cow painting, an officer interested in the painting's progress kept asking how it was coming along. She said it several times and it clicked. Years ago when Jeffrey Dahmer was killed in prison, a prison guard cleaned out his prison cell and then sold his shaving kit online. That prison guard was fired. You know, we're looking at so-called artwork. I think what she does is get stock photos and then traces them. But that said, what more do we know? Susan Hendricks, I know that she also stated that she gets hungry behind bars and wants more commissary money.

I know that she has a long list of lonely hearts that write her, and she strings them along. They also send her money. Yeah. Who cares most about Jodi is Jodi Arias. And she's able, maybe because of the way she looks, her demeanor, very different than the monstrous crime scene that we saw. And she's able, it appears, to get what she wants, saying, please.

I remember during the trial, she didn't want the death sentence. At first she did, then she didn't, saying, please don't do this. My family will hurt, projecting onto them. Meanwhile, all she cares about is herself and benefiting. She's hungry in prison. Eat prison food. I'm sorry. That's what a convicted murderer should eat, not benefiting and having the families hurt once again. She seems to get away with a whole lot, even in prison. A whirlwind romance between aspiring photographer Jody Arias and salesman Travis Alexander turns sour. The explosive pair is on and off again, but this time Travis swears they're done for good.

Joining me, renowned psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us from L.A., not only author, but also appears regularly in Paris in Love on Peacock. Dr. Bethany, listen to this. You would complain about her, you know, little things here and there. He never told me about the big things, because if he told me about the big things, like slashing his tires and stealing things from his house, you know, I would have been like, I told you. Did I tell you? Didn't I tell you she was nuts? So he wouldn't, he would never tell me about the big, like really violating psychotic things that she was doing. Now, you're hearing Travis's roommate, Chris Hughes, speaking to me.

Listen to more. He was saying things to her like, you hurt me worse than the passing of my own father. You're a terrible person. You're despicable. You're the devil's daughter. I mean, he was so angry about something. And we don't know exactly what that was. She just sat there and took it.

And later, she comes back online and says, two things that you're wrong about. I didn't steal your journals and I didn't slash your tires. She didn't defend herself against all the other things that he said about her. And when I saw that, I just said to myself, you know what, that's her trying to cover up for what she's about to do. To Dr. Bethany, apparently the roommates noticed that she would follow him to the bathroom. That she would then when he would go to the restroom, she would follow him out of the room and then go and rifle through his stuff in his bedroom. Eavesdrop on his conversations. I mean, it never ended with this woman. You know, Nancy, she was pathologically jealous.

That's why she killed him because she knew he was about to go on a vacation with another woman. So she was rifling through all of his journals because she wanted to get intel. She wanted to get information. You know, she may have stalked or even contacted the other women. You know, she manipulated him with sex before she killed him. And I see this artwork as one big manipulation to the public. She minimizes the heinous nature of what she did. The cow is in a pastoral scene. She looks like she's on vacation behind prison bars with this cute little bucket cap and, you know, matching orange shirt. In one scene, she's walking into like almost like a mandala type setting that's very spiritual. She looks like Barbie in another picture. And she also pairs skulls with flowers.

Now, I know that sort of deal is de la muerte, which is very typical of that celebration in Latin America. However, when you pair flowers with a skull, it's like your favorite phrase, my favorite phrase that you always say, dancing, putting perfume on the pig. It's really minimizing what a skull looks like and what gets a person to the point where their flesh has decomposed and they are nothing but a skull. So she's turning the heinous nature of the crime into its opposite, like it's just rainbows and unicorns. And I think that even seeing a Christmas hymn, which happens to be one of my favorites, that's really manipulative as if she's like a choir girl. So look at that picture right there doesn't that have a spiritual quality like she's just the most spiritual person on the

planet you know what's really crazy is everybody seemed to know what aries was up to including travis alexander listen guy passionately was saying travis you understand like we think she's dangerous and he was saying dangerous you kidding she wouldn't hurt a fly you guys she's so sweet she's so nice and right as he's defending her sky put her finger to her lips just to tell us to be quiet and then she pointed at the door and she left she's out there and travis rips the door open and there's Jodi Arias with her face to the door, listening to our conversation at midnight upstairs on the opposite end of the house. Where is Travis Alexander? Friends haven't heard from him for days. They're supposed to take off for Cancun in only a matter of hours. But Travis is nowhere to be found.

There were so many eerie warnings from friends and family about what was to come. Listen. And we caught her again. I said, Travis, case in point, bro. Like, that's what I'm talking about. Who does that? Who does that?

Normal people don't do that. If you don't get it, there's nothing. I mean, there's nothing more I can do. But what Skye said was, she said, Travis, we're afraid we're going to find you chopped up in her freezer. Joining me, Andy Kahn, Director of Victim Services at Crime Stoppers in Houston. Andy, how many times have we seen murder victims where their friends and family would say, you got to get out of this. She, he is going to kill you. Or murder victims that before they died said, if I go missing, he, she did it. I just worked on a case where we had a young woman that ended up getting stuffed

in a refrigerator by her then husband who actually put out, if I go missing, he is the one that is basically going to kill me. And she sent out so many warning signals on that. So when other people started to recognize warning signals, I think you got to pretty start taking it seriously because they're the ones who actually see the true picture. Unfortunately, you know, Travis perhaps might have been caught in this little trance or whatever with her. But the real story about this right now is how in the heck can Jody Arias sit in a prison cell, paint, draw, scratch, sniff, doodle, whatever, and then ship items out to be sold on the open market.

And the only reason people buy them is because she's received some higher proficiency because she is a high profile killer without anybody thinking about who she killed, why she's in prison. And I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be able to profit from committing crimes, especially murder. It's that simplistic. That's the First Amendment. It's not allowed to happen. It's beyond my comprehension. To Derek Smith, high-profile criminal defense attorney joining us out of Ohio. Why are inmates, criminals, allowed to profit from their crimes? Well, Nancy, in a lot of states, they're not. This goes back to something

I said earlier, the Son of Sam law that originated from the David Berkowitz murders in New York that was brought up on First Amendment all the way up to the Supreme Court. And they they deemed that was unconstitutional as a violation of their First Amendment rights. And then the states, you know, tweak some of those laws to make it applicable for that in many states. But Arizona is not one of them. So Arizona does not have any laws against inmates in this situation being able to profit. Well, maybe after tonight they will. And, you know, Derek, you mentioned Son of Sam laws regarding Berkowitz. You know, it goes all the way back to the movie Goodfellas, where there was a lawsuit that went to the U.S. Supreme Court over profiting from Goodfellas. I mean, this is a valiantly fought battle, and states have the

power to stop this. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.