Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Joe Exotic murder plot victim's hubby DEAD?

Episode Date: April 3, 2020

The hit Netflix docuseries "Tiger King" heats up an investigation into what happened to Joe Exotic's intended murder-for-hire victim, Carole Baskin's, husband. Don Lewis disappeared without a trace and now a new investigation has been opened by Sheriff Chad Chronister.Joining Nancy Grace today: Sheriff Chad Chronister - Sheriff of Hillsborough County, Florida Dr Grey Stafford - Author of "ZOOmility: Keeper tales of training with positive reinforcement", host "Zoo Logic" podcast Jason Oshins - New York Defense Attorney Bruce Johnson - Owner ISP Investigations-Master Sgt Region One Crime Scene Commander, Chicago Metro Area (Ret) Sheryl McCollum - Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder Dr Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills Michael Kaplan - New York Post Reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I want justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, available now only on Fox Nation. After the flamboyant tiger trainer Joe Exotic is convicted of hiring a hitman to kill his rival, the so-called fairy godmother of cats, Carol Baskin. A case has reopened, heated up in the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office, and it has nothing to do with Joe Exotic.

Now an investigation heating up into the disappearance of the so-called fairy godmother to cats, Carol Baskin's husband, Don. His vehicle found at a private airport with his keys and his briefcase inside, but no sign of him. What happened to all his money? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Was there a murder amidst talk that his body was fed to big cats, therefore no evidence left behind? What is the truth about his disappearance. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Hi, everyone. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111 Crime Stories with a report on the case heating up in the search for the fairy godmother to cats, Carol Baskin, who's all involved as the victim in a murder plot by Joe Exotic. He is the focus of a Netflix hit documentary. Now an investigation heating up into the disappearance of her husband. Take a listen to part of the Netflix doc. Now an investigation heating up into the disappearance of her husband. Take a listen to part of the Netflix doc.

Take a listen to this. A zookeeper went to prison for murder for hire. There are more captive tigers in the U.S. than there are in the wild throughout the world. They old people are nuts, man. They're all crazy. I'm sure y'all got a story to tell. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name's Joe Exotic and this is Sarge. He was like a mythical character living out in the middle of Oklahoma, who owned 1,200 tigers and lions and bears and...

Come here, love me. I'm outspoken, spoken good looking love to party and have fun i don't think we're done blowing up today i don't think you are they have a heart and a soul and a mind i've learned from them but carol baskin keeps saying i can't have these tigers if he ever had an enemy in his life it was carol baskin hey all you cool cats and kittens it's carol Big Cat Rescue. Carol is the Mother Teresa of cats. We will end the private possession of these cats.

This is my way of living, and nobody's going to tell me any otherwise. Well, I don't know about that. What you're hearing right there is from Netflix. With me, Sheriff Chad Chronister, sheriff of Healdsburg County, Florida, where her animal sanctuary is. Dr. Gray Stafford, former director, Conservation Wildlife World Zoo, author of Zoo Mility and creator of the Zoologic podcast. Jason Oceans, renowned defense attorney joining me out of New York. Bruce Johnson, owner, ISP Investigations. Director, Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl McCollum,

psychoanalyst to the stars in Beverly Hills, Dr. Bethany Marshall, and New York Post investigative reporter Michael Kaplan. Sheriff Chad Chronister is telling me the search for Carol B baskin's ex-husband is heating up dr gray stafford uh zoologic podcast you say it's all about money let me remind you there is no person of interest or suspect but what are you talking about money motive well i would just remind people that um sanctuaries are big business and if you look at these publicly available documents into their taxes, tax filings, there's a lot of money there at Big Cat Rescue that is raised. And it's not going into all their exhibitry or staffing. So I think as in any case, you know, a good thing to do is to follow the money and see where it leads. Can I ask a question here? I mean, they didn't teach me this in law school.

When you say there's big money in animal sanctuaries, what are we talking about is big money? Well, in 2017, they had a surplus at her facility of over a million dollars. Did you say a surplus? Yes. Sheriff Chad Chronister joining me, the sheriff of Hillsborough County, Florida, where the animal sanctuary is located. Did you know that yeah i mean stafford got that off the tax documents that's a lot of money that's a that's a ton of money and you're exactly right any great investigator any good investigator always follows the money i mean what wealthy person what wealthy person disappears you everyone on this phone's been been doing it a

long time what person ever disappears a wealthy person and doesn't take their money with them? And we estimate his net worth when he disappeared to be around five to seven million dollars. And then you have to go into the will, the will that they thought was forged. What will have you ever seen that has a provision in there that says if I'm ever kidnapped or disappear, I leave the bulk of my wealth, well, my entire wealth to this individual. Okay, hold it just a moment. Jason Oceans, I'm certainly no expert at probate, but I have written wills for people when they're simple. I've never put anything like that in a will. I left, I wrote my dad's will. He left everything to my mom. I wrote my mom's will. She loved everything to her grandchildren.

So long story short, I've never heard of a provision like that in a will. This is your expertise, Oceans. You see enough probated estates. And again, it's people with assets that do it. So sometimes they have lots of it. If I'm kidnapped or go missing, you've actually put that in a will. No, no, listen, that specific codicil, I have not seen. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth again. Surprise. Eccentric, eccentric people will be creative with restrictions and odd provisions. This one I haven't seen. Sheriff Chronister, Chad Chronister, elected sheriff.

Are you sure that was in his will? Oh, 100% was in his will. And there was even a witness. You have to remember when you watch this documentary, they always thought someone was spying on one another. They were extremely competitive and you almost had to prove your allegiance daily. And there was one of the employees there said she witnessed them sign the document. She later recanted that story and said she did not witness but felt compelled to say that she witnessed the signatures on those documents. Well, doesn't that defeat the will right there if you don't have a witness, Sheriff? We were told no on a civil portion of it because she recanted her story, but the first part, so they erred, I guess, on the side of caution, for lack of a better term, and she was awarded every single

penny of his will. His children received absolutely zero. Uh-oh. I sent some sour grapes right there in Carol Baskin's defense. I don't know the truth of this, but I'm very, very intrigued by the fact that he goes missing through a private jet port where you basically pull up, you park in front, you walk in the door like you're walking in the pharmacy. You walk out the back of the office and get on a plane. There's no security. There's nothing. I mean, you can show your high school library card basically to show who you are. It's not like you're going through TSA at the airport. They find his vehicle there with his briefcase.

Michael Kaplan with me, investigative reporter, New York Post. What was in his vehicle when he went missing? I don't know the answer to that question. I think we were just talking about it. Cheryl McCollum, director of Cold Case Research Institute. Wasn't it his briefcase? And the keys. Yes, the briefcase.

Why would you leave your keys in your vehicle? That doesn't. Apparently, he didn't secure the vehicle. He didn't take the keys with him. He didn't take a briefcase. And apparently, there was some luggage in the car. So if, in fact, he was going somewhere, he didn't take anything with him that he should have. Okay, Michael Kaplan, New York Post reporter, you must be really humiliated that director of the Cold Case Research Institute knew that answer.

I'm going to give you a moment to gather yourself right now. Thank you. Okay, right now, this is just a theory. But there's got to be, not in court, of course, but a motive. And according to court watchers, legal eagles, the motive would be money. Take a listen to our friends at Netflix. Jack Don Lewis was last seen on August the 18th. He was reported missing on the 19th by his wife at about 1.30 in the afternoon. the detectives walked the property and drove the property now you talk about 40 acres apparently there was nothing there that suggested that they

should pursue that area any further there were aerial searches done but found nothing then after three or four days we found his van abandoned at an airport. With the keys still in it, his briefcase in it, but no Don Lewis. It didn't make sense. Like with what he said to me, if you was truly wanting to disappear and nobody know where you was at, would you leave your van where you got in a plane to take off? You wouldn't want nobody to know you was in the plane, because that's now a clue.

You think it was planted. I think someone else drove the van there. I don't know if it was planted there. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about a guy called Joe Exotic. He named himself Joe Exotic, not his real name. Real name's Shrevel, and he's the subject of a brand-new Netflix hit, Tiger King, Murder, Mayhem, and Madness,

to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst to the stars who shall remain nameless. Joining me from Beverly Hills, Dr. Bethany, have you noticed that rich people can't seem to live without their money? That, you know, right now in a time of coronavirus, we hear people complaining that they can't go to the nail salon or they can't get their hair done. That's real. That's not me making it up. It's real. And people have been shamed about that because it's just so irrelevant at a time like this. Rich people have a hard time doing without luxuries. So my question is, follow the money. What is it? Once you get used to all that money, you just can't do without it? Nancy, I have had entire families come into my Beverly Hills office along with their attorneys, their grandchildren, their estate attorneys, everybody. All they can

do is talk about the money, who has it, who's taking it. And in my field, we call it the third. It's a fancy word, which means it's that one. Wait a minute. Did you just say turd? T-U-R-D? Third. T-H-I-R-D. Sorry. I found it very hard to believe that that word would even come out of your very prim and proper mouth. But go ahead. Third. Okay. Third, T-H-I-R-D, is a fancy term that means that that is, it's the elephant in the room. It's the one thing through which everybody is relating. It's the only thing that they care about is the money.

And when we think about Carol, we think about Joe Exotic, we think about all these crazy eccentric characters. What is in common with all these crimes, all these plots, all these disappearances is money. It's not animals. This is not a story about animals because the animals are being exploited for financial gain. I find it very interesting that Carol said that it was unusual, that it was not unusual for her husband to leave for days at a time without even telling her that he was leaving. What kind of a marriage is that? And I agree with Cheryl McCollum that what are all the details around his disappearance? Did she have a fantasy about where he went? Did she miss him? Was she crying? Was she putting out, you know, missing person flyers? What was

her affect after the disappearance? It seems that all the emotions, like metal filings to a magnet, the emotions are going towards the money and the animals, which represent the procuring of money rather than people. Take a listen to this. Joe brought it up several times. He said, I don't know anybody who can kill the lady. I just put it off as, you know, bullshit. I came into the office one day and he's like, I got this crossbow.

You can use this on her nature trail wherever she walks. You can shoot her with this and nobody will ever see you. I'm like, what the f**k? Okay, I can see me walking around Florida with a camouflage suit on. Okay, but a f**king crossbow? Give me a break. Alan Glover, he's an old-time employee of Jeff. Jeff knows him real well. Supposedly supposedly since he has a teardrop tattoo he's killed somebody before well Joe came to me one day decided Louie says you think Alan can

kill somebody I said is he capable of it miss it of course who's not I'll cut her head off for you if you want and he he was all into that. I said, would you like me to bring it back? No, no, get rid of it in the swamp. I'm like, okay. Will do. Wow. To the host and founder of Zoologic Podcast, the former director of Conservation Wildlife World Zoo out in Arizona,

Dr. Gray Stafford, how did you manage to get your mitts on tax returns? Well, there's some great bloggers out there that have been tracking the sanctuary business, and it is a business, for many years. So I'm relying on their research, not my own. And it's publicly searched documents, so tax documents and so forth, that these organizations have to file like we all do. It's there. And I think donors and volunteers and visitors would be surprised at the amount of money that goes into Carol's place.

Sheriff Chad Chronister, the sheriff there in Hillsborough County, Florida. You heard the questions that Dr. Bethany Marshall in Beverly Hills posed about Carol's affect. Did she put up posters? What did she do? Was she crying? Was she distraught when the husband goes missing? Do you recall her demeanor at the time? I don't. I don't have an accurate answer for that. But let me just touch on real quick about the truck at the airport. I think a lot of people are operating under the theory that he left and fled. he had a home in costa rica his house manager there hadn't seen him in six months the security guards that worked on the property hadn't seen him in six months some of the business uh associates that he had hadn't seen him

in six months so no one knows that or we're not operating under the theory that he went to costa rica i didn't even know he had a home in Costa Rica, Sheriff. So he does have a home there, but nobody's seen him even up to today? Yeah, not only did he have a home, he had a girlfriend in Costa Rica. Neither one had seen him in six months. Okay, that caused a lot of raised eyebrows in here, especially Jackie Howard, my producer over there who's now laughing. Whoa, whoa, wait a minute, Michael Kaplan. What is happening with you? The man has a mistress and bucked up in Costa Rica. Hello? Well, I didn't know that. I've never heard one word

about a mistress. So Michael Kaplan, New York Post reporter, this is news to everybody right now that we're hearing this from Sheriff Chad Chronister for the first time. News to me as well, I have to confess. I mean, have you noticed? I mean, you're right there in Manhattan where, you know, a regular apartment costs $700,000. A one-bedroom, I might add. But have you noticed that rich people that you guys report about every day, they can't seem to do without their money?

So somewhere, if this guy really does take off, he's got to be sitting on a pot of gold. Would you agree with that, Michael? I would agree with that. I would agree with that. I would think that he would have had, you know, had money with him or had, you know, access to it, obviously. Yes, access to it. He may not have it, you know, stuffed in the lining of his pants, but Cheryl McCollum, director of Cold Case Research Institute, wouldn't that be a matter of running down a money trail? It was all about money. If she was the only place you could go to see these beautiful creatures, then she's going to be able to raise five times the amount of money she'd be able to raise if you could. Why are you saying that about her?

You don't know that. Maybe it was because of love of animals. Okay, so here's the thing. Carol Baskin is in Florida and goes after somebody in Oklahoma. So she started this whole thing about money. But Joe Exotic stole the name of her. No, he stole the name of her sanctuary. He changed the name of his show. But Nancy, that was after Carol threw the first stone in the thing. Joe Exotic didn't know who she was until he read about himself in a newspaper where she threatened to shut him down.

She wanted that man out of business. She went after his livelihood. All due respect, but Joe Rezotic made like $500,000. What the heck else could he do for $500,000 in Oklahoma? Well, I can tell you one thing he couldn't do, and that is to man her head in a jar, Cheryl McCollum. So that's one way not to ever make any more money by sitting your rear end in a federal pen for the next 25 years.

But, you know, you want to give him a get-out-of-jail-free card because he needed to make a living in Oklahoma. A lot of people actually have real jobs in Oklahoma not hiring hitmen, Cheryl. Banner. Okay, let me circle. Jump in. Yes. This is Bruce.

One other thing. I mean, he was a known player, Carol's first husband. And in the documentary, it also said that he wrote a sealed letter to his family, which they revealed on the show also, that in the event that he goes missing to look at her and that she had threatened him, he had guns in the house and she took away his gun and she had a gun in the house and it threatened him with the gun. So she's no angel here in all this. And also what the other reporter had mentioned, she had been going after him and his business hard.

And PETA has a huge following, as you know. They went after him and their goal was to put him out of business. And they did. And, you know. Well, I know you're saying she's no angel, but let me remind you, Bruce Johnson, even angels sometimes get dirty faces. Hi, guys. Nancy Grace here. We have all worked so hard to bring to you Don't Be a Victim, Fighting Back Against America's Crime Wave, a brand new book. After interviewing literally hundreds of crime victims and police, we put our knowledge into Don't Be a Victim. You can pre-order now. Go to CrimeOnline.com, pre-order now,

and know that portions of our proceeds goes to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about, as he titles himself, Joe Exotic. Take a listen to our friends over at Netflix. What raises my eyebrows is she threatened to kill me. That's not enough to get it. Nope. There's free speech.

We don't restrain free speech in this country. We punish it after it's done. I'm sure in the judge's eyes it was hearsay, but that happened in June, and he disappeared in August. He was shipping some cars down to Costa Rica. Everything had to be done in Miami, Monday morning. And I had to get all the titles to the cars and stuff ready but I needed him to tell me something I kept waiting for him to call me he

didn't call me I started calling him didn't answer the phone didn't answer the phone this continued all through Saturday all through Sunday I got no answer I finally got a hold of Carol. She says, do you think I should call the police? And I said, do you think? Wow. Do you think I should call police? Okay. Right there to Dr. Bethany Marshall. Jump in. Well, this doesn't seem like a woman who's very concerned about the fact that her husband's gotten gotten missing. Carol's affect is very shallow. Every time I hear her voice earlier in the show, you played her saying something to the effect of, well, I know Joe Exotic wanted to kill me all along, but she kind of giggles like she thinks it's funny. Like, almost like there's this big drama between her and Joe Exotic. It reminds me of two

villages that are kind of fighting and rampaging against each other like they're locked in some fight that's actually exciting to them. They seem like drama queens and when her husband goes missing and she doesn't want to report him it tells me that there's trouble in her own camp there's not just trouble in the other person's camp show exotics camp there's trouble in her camp too well you know dr bethany can i tell you a little story a story i haven't told you yet david as you know uh is a business person and he had to go out of town. And he always calls me, lets me know when he or text me. It's easier.

Let's me know when he lands. Let's me know when he gets to his first meeting. Let's me know when he gets to his hotel. Then I typically don't speak to him again till the next morning. I didn't hear that. I knew he went out to dinner. I didn't ever hear that he made it to the hotel, but I thought I knew the hotel, but I wasn't sure. Myself and you know, D that works with me stayed up until four o'clock

in the morning. I was so convinced somebody bopped him in the head and some parking lot in Florida. I was worried sick. We finally found the hotel. We were even calling hospitals, hospitals, because he never forgets to text when he gets to the hotel. Well, we finally found him, D found him. And I called the night clerk. And after many, many begging threats, blah, blah, blah, you can imagine he went to the room and checked on David to make sure he was okay. He was fine. And it's just hard for me to imagine your husband going missing and you don't raise the alarm. But that could just be the difference in the marriage. Bethany? Well, Nancy, but also think about the fact that if he had a mistress in Costa Rica, if he had this life away from her, I could see her wanting to check in on him frequently just out of a sense of paranoia.

If she felt she was being cheated on. Whoa, if you think your husband has a mistress in California, go ahead, get a divorce. I did not mean that as in hire a hitman or kill him. I meant that as divorce. Why check up on him? Forget that. Move on. All right.

No offense, Jason Oceans, but men are like buses. A new one's going to come along every 15 minutes. Don't get mad at me. Guys, listen to this from our friends at Netflix. That new power attorney gave her control over the estate. But she prepared his power of attorney. A normal person would put upon my death, you know, first sentence, upon my disappearance.

Isn't it suspicious that the power of attorney says upon my disappearance? Is that normal verbiage? I have in 37 years never seen it say or disappearance. Never have. In that respect, this is terribly unusual. I don't know who anticipates, everybody anticipates her death, but who in the world anticipates disappearance? And how did Carol behave in the aftermath of his disappearance? After Don disappeared, Carol and her family got rid of everybody that worked for Don. They got rid of everything that he owned.

There was a note pinned to the refrigerator door. It said, never speak that man's name again in this house. Wow. You're hearing from our friends at Netflix, Tiger King, Murder, Mayhem and Madness to Michael Kaplan, investigative reporter, New York Post. What do we know about that? I mean, that sounds that sounds pretty wild. It sounds like she was trying to totally divorce herself from anything to do with his life or anybody who would, you know, question what happened to the guy, doesn't it? Well, it does, but I don't know that that's necessarily true. Maybe she was cutting expenses. I don't know the answer to that, but I know.

She could have been cutting expenses. I do know, based on what Dr. Grace Stafford's telling us about tax returns, but there was a million-dollar surplus. So I'm not sure about that. Maybe his employees didn't like her and there was animosity. I don't know the answer to that, but it is circumstantial. So to you, special guest Sheriff Chad Chronister, the elected chair of Hillsborough County, Florida, where does the investigation into his death or excuse me, disappearance stand now? And why has it heated up? Well, luckily to the,

I should say fortunate because of the popularity of this Netflix phenomenon, this documentary, Tiger King, we're starting to get a ton of leads on average, about six a day for the last five days. Nothing so far that has been viable. Most of it has been phone calls or emails with people's theories. They've watched the show, and now they have a theory. They can tell us how he was killed and who did it. But again, nothing credible, but I'm optimistic. I'm hoping this will be, during this series, this will, again, rehash some relationship that's been soured as an employee. Something, some piece of evidence, interview,

anything that will help us finally solve this disappearance. You know, Sheriff Chad Chronister, I was about to come down on you, bring down the hammer, when you said the new Netflix documentary has made the case wildly popular. We are not a lynch mob. We don't mete out justice based on popularity or unpopularity. But when you say you're getting leads like six a day, that's a whole nother can of worms. Weigh in on that. New York defense attorney Jason Oceans. I mean, this is not voting somebody Miss Sweet Potato. Nobody's going to go home Miss Congeniality or Mr. Universe. It's not about a popular vote.

It's about evidence, be it direct or circumstantial. Jason? There's no doubt about it, Nancy. I mean, it's often you would say for certain that, you know, sometimes circumstantial evidence can just be overwhelming. You know, where's the body? Where's the gun? But evidence can just be overwhelming. You know, where's the body? Where's the gun? But you can make those cases, you know, just from the prosecutorial side. So, yeah, circumstances associated with all of this and the characters.

I mean, it's clearly a Netflix show for sure, but it's real life. I don't care about it being a show for my entertainment. I care about what happened to this guy. Did he disappear which I find hard to believe since he was rich and used to privilege and if he didn't disappear that means he's dead and I find it very hard to believe that he could go under the radar for this long. Director of Cold Case Research, Justice Chief Sheryl McCollum, really hard for me to believe he vanishes without a trace and he's never popped up

in all that time. He's never had contact with his children, never had contact with his friends, his relatives, nothing. Nancy hasn't had any contact with the mistress.

He hasn't cut his money. So how would he be living wherever he supposedly went? The key thing to me here is we don't know when he went missing. We just know when she reported him. So the sheriff, again, has got to back this thing up at least six months from the date she made that call. back home. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about the now conviction of the so-called Tiger King, Maldono, Passage,

Shreve, a lot of different names. But remember, not just the hit on Carole Baskin that he forked over thousands to get a rival murdered. He hated her in a longtime grudge match, but also for killing tigers, for killing his tigers, allegedly to make room for more profitable animals. Nine counts of that as well. But, you know, you'd think that his conviction would be the end of the story, but it's not. The fat lady hasn't sung yet. Take a listen to our friends at Netflix. What a story.

It's so wild it must not be true. That's the first thing people think. Oh, come wild, it must not be true. That's the first thing people think. Oh, come on, that can't be true. It's 20 years ago. Cold case 20-year-old murders don't get solved. Well, it all starts, you know, Carol Baskin, who was Carol Lewis at the time, was married to Don Lewis. I did see Don Lewis about maybe a month or so before he disappeared. And he did mention to me that he felt his life was in danger. There is so many strange twists in that story. You would have to write books, volumes of the stuff that went wrong there, the lies that are there.

All the circumstantial evidence, somebody did something too dumb. There's a lot of stories about Carol having some finger in it, but nobody can prove it. In the last hours, the investigation into the disappearance of Carol Baskin's husband has been reopened. Why? And let me state at the get-go, she has not been named a suspect or a person of interest

in her husband's disappearance. First of all, you just heard about, quote, circumstantial evidence. Take a listen one more time to our friends at Netflix. Jack Don Lewis was last seen on August the 18th. He was reported missing on the 19th by his wife at about 1.30 in the afternoon. The detectives walked the property and drove the property. Now, you talk about 40 acres. Apparently, there was nothing there that suggested that they should pursue that area any further. There were aerial searches done. We found nothing.

Then after three or four days, we found his van abandoned at an airport. With the keys still in it, his briefcase in it, but no Don Lewis. Sheriff, we don't know the last time he was seen before he went missing. That's exactly right. Only according to her account that she had seen him early one morning telling him to get the truck ready. They were going to take a bunch of supplies down to Miami and then head to Costa Rica. But that's only her account as he got in his truck and said, I'm going to run an errand. And she has never seen him since. Now, wait a minute. Nobody that

worked for him, none of his children, none of his friends, nobody saw or heard from him six months before he disappeared, Sheriff. Six months. No, I'm not saying six months before. I'm saying, well, in Costa Rica, six months before, but not here locally in Tampa. So when was the last time that we know of, conservatively speaking, Sheriff Chronister, that he was seen by anybody other than the very godmother of cats, Carol Baskin? Who else saw him leading up to his disappearance employees employees around there who claimed they had seen him a couple of days prior couple of days who said he saw him the day before but that's that's that's as far as we can track it back let me go to you

dr gray stafford uh former director conservation wildlife world zoo author of zoomility and founder of the zoologic podcast was the husband part of the animal sanctuary was he just the money man was he the bookkeeper was he a zookeeper what was he he he founded it he he he was the original it was under a different name and it escapes me at the moment. But he founded that sanctuary originally. And then Carol joined him when they became a couple. How do you know all this, Gray? Well, like so many millions, I've watched the show. But I've also done some additional reading of past news articles about the missing person story.

But you knew Exotic, and you knew Carol Baskin and the and the husband Don long before this ever became a Netflix documentary. You once told me that the zoo community, as you call it, is actually very small and closely knit. Is that true? The modern accredited zoo community is absolutely. It's a, you know, what I would say is that these people in this story do not represent most zoo professionals. There are no heroes in this story, as your previous guests have said. So we certainly do know what sanctuaries are doing, some of their issues. As I said, Carol has been very anti-zoo in her public statements.

And so obviously. Well, it sounds to me like you got a little dog in that fight. You got some skin in the game. You are with the zoo community and she doesn't like the zoo community. So do I have to take everything you say with a box of salt? Well, I hope you know me better than that. Well,

okay. You're right. I do. I do. Guys, I've known Dr. Grace Stafford since the Jody Arias trial. How long ago was that?

And we've been in very close contact. I've read your work. I've followed your career. I've read your book. And I've seen your podcast. I believe what you're telling me. I believe that there is that dichotomy between the zoo community and the, let me just say, sanctuary community. Very different from Joe Exotic, though.

It's more like a show, in your words. So did you know of Don, Carol Baskin's husband that disappeared? Did you know of him? Had you ever come in contact with him during his life? No, I did not. And I fortunately have not met Joe Exotic either. I'm aware of these stories. It's hard not to be, especially since my zoos have held tigers, right? Oh, yes. And I would not come on your show and say that zoos are perfect, Nancy. We are a work in progress. But clearly,

there's a difference between modern zoos that are accredited and hold themselves to higher standards and the kinds of situations we're seeing in the show. I agree with you, Dr. Gray Stafford, 200 percent. Take a listen to Netflix Tiger King. What a story. It's so wild, it must not be true. That's the first thing people think. Oh, come on. That can't be true. It's 20 years ago. Cold case 20-year-old murders don't get solved. Well, it all starts, you know, Carol Baskin. Carol Baskin, who was Carol Lewis at the time, was married to Don Lewis. I did see Don Lewis about maybe a month or so before he disappeared. And he did mention to me that he felt his life was in danger. There is so many strange twists in that story. You would have to write books, volumes of the stuff that went wrong there, the lies that are

there. All the circumstantial evidence, somebody did something to Don. I want you to take a listen. Let's play Cut 21, Jackie, from Tiger King. But then what about all of Don's assets, not the insurance policy? I had nothing to do with that. All his real estate, all of his holdings? All went under his will, didn't it? The will wouldn't have come into play because if you disappear, you can't do anything for five years. And so Carol had him declared legally dead five years and one day after he disappeared. And here's the latest on the case. A judge has just declared Lewis dead since he's been missing

five years, but Hillsborough County Sheriff's deputies say they will keep the case open until they have proof. A lot of things happened during those five years. A lot of things were moved around. She took out a lot of good things for herself and put in bad things in their accounts. We ended up with all the yucky stuff. She was taking property out of Don's name and our names and putting it in her name. Do you have a tip the Hillsborough Sheriff wants to know what happened to the former husband of Big Cat Rescue CEO? We are talking about the disappearance of Carol Baskin's husband. If you have information, the number for the Hillsborough County Sheriff,

813-247-8200. Repeat, 813-247-8200. Again, no one has been named a suspect. No one has been named a person of interest. But I guarantee you this. The man is dead. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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