Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - John of God, college co-ed butchers roommate, & Alaska rape-murder solved 25 years later

Episode Date: March 7, 2019

Nancy Grace looks at three cases in this Crime Stories episode, including accusations against celebrity faith healer Joao Teixeira de Faria - also known as John of God - that he sold babies as he impregnated teenage slaves kept at his rural gem mines and farms in Brazil. Nancy and guests also discuss a college student accused of stabbing her best friend 30 times with a butcher knife and a man finally arrested and charged with rape and murder in a 1993 Alaska cold case. Nancy's panel includes forensics expert Karen Smith, North Carolina Family & Divorce Lawyer Kathleen Murphy, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, syndicated radio host David Mack, New Jersey lawyer Brad Micklin, Los Angeles psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and Crime Stories Reporter John Lemley. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Developed by doctors, Quell was shown to relieve chronic pain in multiple studies. It works by helping turn down the volume of pain by triggering your body's natural pain blockers. It's like a volume control between your pain and your brain. Quell, 100% drug-free, easy to use, no prescription required, and it can be used while sleeping. With almost 200,000 devices sold, Quell is designed for anyone suffering with a wide range of pain. If you suffer from daily challenging pain, I urge you to try Quell risk-free 60 days. If you're not thrilled, return it for a refund. Go to quellradio.com. Enter promo code Nancy for $30 off a starter kit. Quell, Q-U-E-L-L, quellradio.com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This is an interview I wasn't sure would ever happen. One of the most famous spiritual healers

in the world rarely talks to anyone on camera. John of God agreed to sit down with me under a mango tree on the grounds of the casa. A group of his patients gathered to watch. John of God speaks only Portuguese, so Heather Cumming helped translate. Ready, guys? You describe yourself as a spiritual medium. What does that mean, a medium? As a medium, he's a spiritual medium. What does that mean, a medium?

As a medium, he's a spiritualist. He believes a great deal in God, and he practices this mission already 55 years. Born on a farm to a family who rarely had enough to eat, João Teixeira de Fria was the youngest of six children. His father was a tailor. His mother, a housewife, also ran a small hotel to make ends meet. Joao left school when he was seven to work in his father's tailor shop. To this day, he cannot read or write. As a boy, Joao says he realized he was clairvoyant

when he predicted a terrible storm that destroyed a neighboring village. This event began his journey as a spiritual medium. Are we all, in some sense, missionaries of God? Are we all, do we all have the possibility in our own way to be a medium for God? Everybody is a medium who practices good. And we are all children of God. And each person has their mission. The first time I saw it today, I was humbled by the experience. I said, when she first saw people today,

a little, this here belongs to you. Because a little bit of this... You are hearing Oprah Winfrey interviewing so-called John of God, but in the last days, John of God, faith healer, allegedly keeps teenage girls as sex slaves, selling their babies for up to $40,000 plus before shipping them from Brazil to Europe. That's right, the faith healer known, renowned as John of God, accused of abusing hundreds of women. He was just arrested in Brazil with bags full of gems from his mines,

allegedly using women as slaves at the rural mines and would impregnate girls, sell their babies, and allegedly even murder them after. Those are the allegations. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. What makes it even worse is these claims are true

that he masqueraded as a faith healer for the Lord. Joining me right now, Dr. Bethany Marshall, California psychoanalyst, forensics expert, professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan, renowned New Jersey lawyer, a veteran trial attorney, Brad Micklin joining us right now to syndicate a talk show host, Dave Mack. Dave, John of God, help me please. All right, Nancy. Back in the late 70s, around 1978,

there was a huge worldwide movement of faith healers, psychic surgery, that's surgery without anesthetic and all that kind of garbage. It's nothing more than parlor tricks from vaudeville. Whoa, wait a minute. Wait. Whoa, whoa. Wait a minute, Dave Mack. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater because think what you want.

My aunt, my aunt Adele, who was Christian science, was actually a Christian science faith practitioner. Now, what they do, to my understanding, is you talk the person through their ailment. You talk them through it, and you try to exercise mind over matter. So before you throw everybody in this country that believes in miracles, that believes in faith healing in with John of God, you got the tiger by the tail, buddy. You can't hold on and you can't let go. So let me allow you the chance to rephrase your opening statement. Well, see, if I had finished my opening statement, I would have said,

I believe in miracles from God. I believe in it with all my heart. I thought you said something about garbage. Yes, because John of God is garbage. This is not a faith healer. This is not a man of God. This is a man of the devil who has been ripping people off for the last 50 years. He came to power in this little town in Brazil because he had the aura of being a godly man. And people came to him. You know, if you truly believe in the healing power of God Almighty,

that you believe in miracles, I believe in your belief in him will heal you in many cases. The problem is John of God practiced carnival tricks of psychic surgery, doing the nose scrape, the eye scrape, all these things that have been blown away by actual scientists for many, many years.

He's not a faith healer, Nancy. This guy is a charlatan. He is the wolf in sheep's clothing that is described by the Apostle Paul all throughout the New Testament. This guy is evil, and what he has done is he's taken his belief in God, and then he found money in this little town because people would come to him, and then the entire little town sprung up selling little artifacts and trinkets all about John of God and his healing. And then they would show up and do a little consultation. He would make them feel good because, you know, Nancy, if you're talking about Jesus Christ, if you're talking about the Holy Spirit and the healing power of God to somebody who truly believes, they're going to get that same warm feeling of belief that comes over their heart and soul because they know that God truly can heal.

He's a conduit. But what he does is he takes that ability to connect with people's hearts and their souls, and then he turns it into his own selfish sexual desires and money. That's what he does. That's the allegation. Take a listen to this report from Reuters. A Brazilian celebrity faith healer known as John of God has turned himself in after being accused of sexual abuse by more than 300 women. A judge on Friday had issued an arrest

warrant for him, giving him until 2 p.m. the next day to surrender. After he failed to report to authorities, he was officially ruled a fugitive. Since 1976, so-called John of God has led a spiritual center in central Brazil. He's drawn thousands of Brazilians and foreigners to a spiritual center in a small town, even featured by Oprah Winfrey on her show. On Thursday, he denied the accusations when visiting his center and spoke to a crowd of followers. His lawyer last week said he'd file an appeal on Monday. The 76-year-old could face charges of rape with a prison sentence of 10 years if convicted, as well as rape of a vulnerable person, which carries a sentence of up to 15 years.

You are hearing from a Reuters reporter, but now I want you to hear Lisa Melman telling Oprah what happened to her. 37-year-old Lisa Melman had breast cancer. Doctors recommended a double mastectomy and chemotherapy, but Lisa refused. Desperate to find an alternative treatment, she traveled almost 5,000 miles from South Africa to Brazil. I'm stepping into the unknown. And I think I'm going to be healed. I know I'm going to be healed. Once at the Casa, Lisa volunteered for a visible surgery.

No matter what the results, I know the journey would have been worth it. So what did that nasal probe feel like for you? Well, when I was taken up on stage and my eyes were closed, I still got a bit of a surprise that because he was, he felt my breast and he put my head back and then I felt this thing go in. And my first thought was, oh no, okay, I'm going to have the nose one. And it was definitely cold. My heart was beating very fast. And then I sort of felt him turning this instrument.

And I remember a crunching sound and the thought that how far can this thing go back because it felt really far I wouldn't say it was painful it was more like shock because I hadn't experienced it before and it's close to the brain you're hearing Lisa Melman and if you didn't notice the first thing she said was he grabbed grabbed my breasts. Tell me, do the entities ask permission to incorporate, or do they come at will? He says he kneels down on the earth. He thanks God for the opportunity to be able to do this. And he hands over his body to God, his body and his soul to God. You are hearing Oprah Winfrey interviewing so-called John of God. Listen, what I just witnessed and first of all, almost made me pass out. But how are people able to be cut with seemingly no pain?

She witnessed the operations and she almost passed out. You weren't feeling faint. You were receiving a lot of energy that the entities were sending you. Oh. You weren't feeling sick? Well, I felt like I was going to explode. I felt like there was so much heat, heat, heat, and then I was going to explode. .

That is the power of God. . That is the power of God. What you just asked him to receive, you are receiving it. That's what happens to him when he is beginning to incorporate. In the last days, John of God, faith healer, allegedly keeps teenage girls as sex slaves, selling their babies for up to $40,000 plus before shipping them from Brazil to Europe. That's right. The faith healer known, renowned as John of God, accused of abusing hundreds of women. To Brad Mikla, New Jersey lawyer, what do you make of it?

It's a shocking story. These get more and more sensationalized. It becomes more and more difficult to remain objective. But I have to look at the fact that he has over 300 alleged victims and they're only finding out about it now. I have to keep my mind open that there's more to the story that not this many victims could have gone unnoticed all this time. So I'm waiting to see what more happens as the sun falls. So let me ask you this, Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host. What is the evidence the prosecutors are working with? Well, they're working, as you mentioned, with many, many women who have come forward. They've got enough physical evidence to charge him with a crime.

You know, when he came to Sedona, Arizona, a couple of years ago, a woman went in for a personal faith healing thing with him. And she accused him of touching her genitals and doing some of the things. And they tried to get him there, but somebody intervened in Sedona, Arizona. These charges are not new, Nancy. There have been these people coming forward over the last 40 years who have said things, but this is John of God. He's insulated. He's got a whole society built up around him to the point where Bill Clinton and Oprah Winfrey both were sucked in by this guy. So the accusations now are bringing to fruition an investigation now that goes back to an Australia report from 1998 on their 60 Minutes

version where they had people coming forward with the same allegations, Nancy. 1998? Dr. Bethany Marshall, I need to shrink big time. These claims have been being made. We know back to 1998 and nothing has happened. Nancy, there is such a group hysteria amongst his followers that I imagine that law enforcement or anybody who wants to turn him in is blocked at every turn. He took young women from villages who were starving and didn't have enough food, offered them food, brought him into their compound, repeatedly impregnated them, sold the babies, and in some cases actually murdered the women after 10 years. I think this so-called spiritual guru and all this healing, I think it's all motivated by sex and sadism. Sadism in that he wanted to kill the women, that he wanted to take their babies from them. Sadism in that surgery without anesthesia is actually an act of cruelty. Sure, who knows what he gave these people before he did the so-called surgery or what kind of a hysteria he whipped them up into. But it's a very cruel act not only to perform such a surgery when you are untrained,

but also to separate somebody from a sound medical treatment. These are patients who are desperate for treatment who have sound proven methodologies available to them, and he separates them from them for some kind of a placebo effect that may or may not work. His acts of cruelty towards people just reverberate on multiple levels. It's too hard to even enumerate all of them. There's so many. I want you to take a listen, in case you're wondering if the faith healing worked, to Lisa Mellman, again, speaking with Oprah.

It's never gone away, meaning I've never been out of the cancer realm. I was told that I had fourth stage. I was at fourth stage. Did they give you a prognosis of how long? They did. In the beginning of 2007, they said, I know words have power, but to say it anyway, two to five years, which means, you know, not so long. But I think perception has everything to do with it. I went into some fear because it was an authority telling me that and some somewhere along the line devaluing my existence and the

travel devaluing her existence she has never been free of cancer even since seeing john of god to joseph scott morgan let's get down to reality you're the forensics expert joe scott how can they prove the case well this is what i think the concrete evidence in this case, Nancy, is going to be the bodies, I think, of these women. That's the first block here, building a case. I've had a lot of friends over the years that have traveled all over the world that are forensic anthropologists that have gone and excavated mass graves. Bethany had mentioned just a moment ago how he had essentially turned a group of young women and girls, I would say, into baby factories. And then after a period of time, it is alleged that he would kill them once their usefulness was gone. My suspicion is

that with that factory mentality, lots of times what happens in cases like this is mass graves are dug or you have a concentration of these graves. They're going to have to go out through all of the property that this guy owns and search for these areas where these bodies have been disposed of. Now, over this period of time, you're going to literally have what's referred to as co-mingling of remains. That means that all of these bodies will be together. They'll be kind of mixed up. And that's the rub because you have to separate these remains. Because, I don't know, you know, Brazil is a very isolated area, particularly in the heartland of it. These young girls might be coming from tiny little farms.

They might not have specific government ID. You don't know who they are. So to attach them back to families and all these sort of things is going to be very difficult. I want you to take a listen to Lisa Melman again speaking with Oprah. I never appreciated myself as a human being or I did a lot of self-punishment. And I think part of the reason that perhaps, I can just talk in the perhaps, that I didn't heal or have that kind of healing at John of God was because I was focused on results. And some people need more than one lesson to wake up in life.

Okay, I'm seven years down the line, and I'm still waking up. You know, and for me, I understand so much now. I put a lot of emphasis on the emotional healing as well as the nutritional healing. It's the body, it's the mind. It's working, as you say, working with the healing, whatever that is, and being a participant in your own. Yeah.

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Find the truth. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It was, you know, very graphic. Lieutenant Andy Wilburn of the Radford Police Department is still stunned by what he saw in this Clement Street apartment. The sheer violence of one person on another, we're really searching for a motive. You are hearing our friends at WDBJ7. That was Eric Miller talking to the Radford, Virginia police who are stunned at the level of violence. A 21-year-old college student, a female co-ed, stabs her best friend 30 times with a butcher knife and greets the cops at the door covered in blood. Standing there at the door in the apartment, the two shared together.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Of course, the state never has to prove motive. You don't expect a prosecutor to be able to crawl into the mind of a killer and figure out why. The question is, who did what and when and where? Those are the questions. Not only is Alexa Cannon, the young murder victim, gorgeous, brilliant, her whole life in front of her, you should see the alleged killer, Louisa Cutting, just 21 years old, who breaks down crying in her mugshot. Well, you know what? That's a day late and a dollar short. With me, Karen Smith, forensics expert out of Florida, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family and divorce lawyer, renowned forensics

psychiatrist, Dr. Daniel Bober, and joining me right syndicated talk show host David Mack. David I don't get it these two were best friends they shared an apartment together they were going to college together what happened? Nancy they met during freshman year and they got a very quick bond last year they even went to Cancun together and from what we were seeing on their social media they were extremely close. Although there were some maybe some problems that were popping up on social media through some different comments that were made by both girls. They had this relationship where they just became roommates this past fall. They hadn't been roommates up till that point.

And one of the comments that Alexa made about their relationship, pray for us that we don't kill one another. Now, I don't think that was anything other than, you know, just girls talking about moving in together. But considering what just took place, it's something to consider right now. What we do know is that on the morning that this took place, that Alexa was the one calling 911. And all they could hear on 911 was screaming and they heard something about a knife. Other neighbors had also called 911 that morning to report a disturbance. That's why police got there. And when they did, they were greeted at the door by Louisa, covered in blood, saying, I killed her, putting her hands behind her back, saying,

arrest me. Wow. It's almost too much to take in. A college student breaks down in tears in her mugshot after she's busted on suspicion of stabbing her very best friend and roommate 30 to 40 times. Wow. In the apartment where they live, you know, Karen Smith, forensics expert, you've dealt with so many homicide scenes at a certain point. You know, you notice they can't tell how many times Alexa was stabbed. Why is that? Well, when you're dealing with sharp force injuries like this, you know, it's hard to talk about, but here are the facts. You have a very, very violent, violent attack. This was personal.

This was up close. And when you have something like that, when the sharp force injuries occur, sometimes they occur in the same area multiple times. And it's difficult to tell if it was two, three, or four in the same area. And it's a horrible, horrific scene for these police officers to encounter. The knife, from what I understand, was actually found in her mouth. So the knife was left at the scene. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah. So you're telling me the murder victim, Alexa Cannon, a psychology major from nearby Roanoke, She was planning to graduate in May, stabbed 30 to 40 times and found

with a knife in her mouth. Did you say that? That's what reports are saying. That's correct. Thank you, Karen Smith, for just topping off this reporting. What I don't understand, and let me go to Dr. Daniel Bober on this, forensic psychiatrist. Dr. Bober, the attack on Alexa was so violent. What does that tell you about the mindset or the motive of her best friend and roommate Louisa Cutting? I agree with Karen. I mean, I think it's when you get that close and that personal and there's that much, you know, injury, I think it's pure rage. And so I think there was a very personal connection there. You know, unlike someone who's a sniper who shoots from a thousand yards away, when you get that close with those types of injuries, there's a very, very personal, intimate connection.

And there's a lot of rage there. You know, I'm thinking Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family and divorce lawyer. They were taking snipes on social media. You know how easy it is, Kathleen Murphy? You deal with family and close friend, intimate issues, divorce. You know how easy it is to just shoot off a nasty text? It takes like 15 seconds. And then you may wish immediately.

You may regret it, but it's too late. And that just throws fuel on the fire. I think these girls were in a serious romantic relationship, and that romantic relationship has gone bad. What do you think about that, Dave Mack? Any indication that's true? You know, if you read between the lines, maybe, Nancy, but that hasn't come out in any of the stuff. One thing that did come out in one of the police reports was that apparently in the days leading up to this event, Alexa had reached out to

several friends, made comments that the relationship had soured and she was worried. Well, isn't it true that search warrants show the officers took a phone and a knife and pills, smoking devices and grinders from the defendant, Louisa Cutting's bedroom? Yes, ma'am. And a brown chalk-like substance from the kitchen. I mean, you know what that is? The drugs. It's got to be heroin, crack or cocaine. And the perp, it's all in her bedroom well assuming that the grinder is for the weed because they found the smoking parents vanalia in there the pills we don't know what the contents was the brown stuff again that sounds like heroin but the information here is that they don't have louise's phone yet or they if they do they haven't disclosed that the phone they do have is the victim alexa it was found in her left hand under

her body, the knife in her mouth, as was indicated earlier. So the information that we have from the phone is coming from the victim, Alexa's phone, not from Louisa yet. What do you mean? What's coming from Alexa's phone? Yeah, what we're getting from Alexa's phone is that she had a called 911 that morning, be that she had had contact with others via Twitter or other social media that was picked up. They got search warrants on both of their phones, although they haven't disclosed what was on Louisa's yet. But on Alexa's phone, they did determine that she had reached out to several people indicating that she was deeply concerned about their relationship with Louisa as they were moving forward and that this was something that she feared. Well, can you tell me this, Dave Max, syndicated talk show host,

why the alleged killer, this young co-ed, has hired the Bobbitt lawyer? We all remember when John Wayne Bobbitt's penis was chopped off by wife, Lorena Bobbitt. How did he get brought into the case and why? Well, Blair Howard is a legend in Virginia. You know, as you mentioned, he was the Lorena Bobbitt lawyer. And what one has to assume is that the family has hired Blair Howard so that he can come in and pitch this as some type, again, going back to the relationship that had broken down. And, you know, Nancy, when you go back and look at some of the information from their trip to Cancun, Alexa was talking about how relationship in a weird dynamic where maybe not just friend,

friend or girlfriend, girlfriend, but now she's a protector and mother type. And when you look at the knife in the mouth and everything else, you've got the extreme rage and obsession and everything else that builds into it. But again, hiring Blair Howard as the attorney leads me to believe that they're going to come up with a self-defense or abused, some type of an abusive situation argument. If you have information, 540-731-3624. Do you know another parent or expecting parent? Are you wondering what can I give them as a gift? Don't give them another onesie. Don't give them a plastic toy or, God forbid, a toy gun that's just going to end up in the garage. Give them something that matters.

And what matters the most is protecting their child. What do you love most in the world? Your children. What will you do to protect them? Anything. I sat down with the smartest people I know in the world on matters of child safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators. And what I learned is so important, powerful, and information so critical. I want you to have it. I want them to have it.

Go to crimestopshere.com for a five-part series with action information that you can use to change your life and protect your child. Give that as a gift, not another onesie. Find out how to protect your child when you're out at the mall or the store or the grocery, in the parking lot, at home. Find out about protection regarding babysitters and daycare, even online. I'd rather have that any day of the week than a plastic toy or, God forbid, a toy gun. Join Justice Nation. Go to crimestopshere.com. Earlier today, February 15th at 1 p.m. in the town of Auburn, Maine, members of the Alaska State Troopers, Alaska Bureau of Investigation and Cold Case Investigation Unit, with the assistance of the Maine State Police and the

Auburn Police Department, made an arrest regarding the 1993 murder of 20-year-old Sophie Sergi. You are hearing the very latest. A cold case. Has it been solved? A murder suspect, Stephen Downs, is in the lower 48 for now, contesting an extradition move to Alaska. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. This cold case is now a quarter of a century old. But the facts are just as chilling as they were then. Joining me now, Brad Minklin, New Jersey attorney, Dr. Bethany Marshall, California psychoanalyst, forensics expert, Joseph Scott Morgan. And joining me now,

CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, where you can find this and all other breaking crime and justice news, John Limley. John, first the case in chief, then I will deal with Stephen Downs. What happened? Nancy, we first go back to April of 1993. This is on the campus of the University of Alaska Fairbanks. This is a Monday afternoon, April 26th to be exact, and Bartlett Residence Hall was a busy place. Finals week is coming up. Most students are cramming, racing to finish semester-end papers and projects. It's a bustling spot. Around 2 p.m. that afternoon, existence on the second floor of Bartlett, though it was the dorm's all-female residential floor at the time, takes a grim, surreal plunge.

Dorm residents have been in and out of the second floor bathroom all day long. No one had noticed anything unusual, anything odd. That's until one of the janitors enters to start her daily cleaning. She passes by all the sinks, shower stalls, and then opens a door in the back of the area that leads to a more private bathroom with just a single bathtub. The janitor flips on the light and is absolutely horrified by the sight of a young woman's body. The victim has suffered a gunshot wound. Her pants are down around her ankles. What's truly chilling is that it's soon determined that she had been lying in the tub as long as 13 hours before anyone found her.

With me is Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joseph Scott, do you believe Sophie was the alleged killer's only victim, or do you believe there are more? Well, from what I'm understanding, Nancy, this guy's DNA is not popping up on anybody else's radar. Now, I don't know that maybe it was ineffectively examined over the course of years. But right now, his DNA is solely associated with this case out of the forensic database. Well, here's my take on that, Joe Scott Morgan, if there is a connection between him, this guy, Stephen Downs, whose DNA has matched semen found at the scene of Sophie Sergi's murder, if there is a connection between

them, because he was in Alaska at the time, for instance, if they were dating, if he was stalking her, if they were in a study group together, then I would say this is maybe his only victim. If this is random and he just stalked her like he would an animal, raped her and killed her, then I would say there are going to be more victims. To me, you're saying yes and no, which is not a clear answer, but I understand his DNA hasn't popped up anywhere else to suggest he was not a serial attacker, but the other attacks may not have DNA. I don't know the answer to that. I think Dr. Bethany Marshall's psychoanalyst, the answer is going to be, did he have a connection

to Sophie Sergi? If he did, this may be his only victim. But if he did not, I would suspect that she is one of many people he just hunted, stalked, and murdered. I would agree that she is one of many people he just hunted, stalked, and murdered. I would agree, Nancy. If he did not have a connection, then, and by the way, the connection could be quite fragile. Perhaps he saw her at the grocery store. Perhaps he saw her at a nightclub and followed her back to the dorm.

And so he begins to stalk her. So in fantasy, he has a relationship, whereas in reality, there is none. So it could be that kind of a connection. Or as I suspect, this guy stalks women. And it started when he was very young, looking at other girls at grade school, as Joe Scott Morgan said, peeping through windows, driving through neighborhoods. This is a man who's logged endless hours casing institutions that are frequented by women. And what better place than a dorm, a sorority, a place where he can hang out under a tree in the dark by a ditch, looking in windows and finally selecting a victim. It takes enormous energy, Nancy, to penetrate a dorm and to kill somebody, which does imply to me, as Joe Scott Morgan said,

that this guy had been thinking about this and preparing this for a long, long time. To Brad Micklin, a New Jersey lawyer, we know that the technique they are using is cutting-edge genetic genealogy techniques. And that's the same thing used in the Golden State Killer case, where there are literally dozens of victims. What that means is you get DNA from the crime scene. You have the known DNA. You don't have anything to match it to. So you run it through a DNA database.

Because of DNA databases such as Ancestry.com and so many others like that, a familial DNA match pops up, like I committed a crime. You may get my second cousin who did her ancestry. Her DNA will pop up as a remote match. Then you investigate, investigate, investigate until you get down to me, the alleged perp. Will that genealogy technique, familial DNA, be challenged in court, and how, Brad Micklin? Well, that's an interesting question, Nancy, and I think the answer is yes, it will be challenged, aside from the fact that DNA is always going to be challenged, because what led in part to Downs being identified was advances in the DNA technology, not discovery of new technology or not discovery of new DNA. He was actually a suspect at the time of the murder, but he was dismissed. So I think that as the law develops and the DNA develops, you strengthen the dismissibility of the evidence because the technique and technology is better.

But you convolute it because you're using old DNA that was used with old technology. So you're going to be raising certain issues at the same time that you're settling on. To John Limley, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, I know the medical examiner concluded that Surgy, Sophie Surgy, just 20 years old, had been sex assaulted, stabbed twice in the right eye while she was alive, then killed by a single gunshot wound to the back of the head from a.22 caliber. The weapon was never found. But what can you tell me about this guy, Steve Downs, who's fighting extradition right now? Well, Downs at the time of this murder was an 18-year-old freshman at the Alaska College. Downs was interviewed briefly by police at the time of

the murder, but he denied any knowledge of what happened. Sergi, a native Alaskan from the western village of the Pisgah Point area, was just visiting a friend at the University of Alaska Fairbanks at the time when she was brutally sexually assaulted and killed. And what is so ironic is that she was only there for two nights, and it was that second night that she was murdered. Now, I know that Downs, the alleged perp, points the fingers at soldiers from Fort Wainwright, and that's nearby army barracks. That's convenient, but their DNA is not matching. She was sex assaulted. He claimed at the time they often visited the residence hall to see girls there. Now, interesting is DNA did not turn up on previous searches in the National Criminal Database.

He has no prior arrests. It was only through this genealogy website that the DNA match emerged. What we know, 44-year-old nurse living in Maine. When I say he is challenging extradition, extradition means you're being taken from one state to another, one territory or jurisdiction to another. There's only two questions. Is this you? And are you the person charged in this indictment? So what's happening right now, they're probably using fingerprint verification that this is, in fact, Steve Downs, and he will be extradited, even though he claims no knowledge and claims his innocence. We wait

as justice unfolds. But remember, Sophie Sergi's family has been waiting for 25 years for justice. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.