Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Johnny Depp Verses Amber Heard: Round 3?

Episode Date: December 17, 2022

Legal battles are not over for Amber Heard. Johnny Depp was awarded $8.3 million dollars in court after a jury agreed that his former wife, Heard, defamed the 'Pirates of the Carribean" actor. Heard's insurer sued saying the actress' policy does not cover any of the $8.3 million because it doesn't cover "willful" misconduct. That is what the jury found Heard was liable for. Initially, a judge agreed saying the insurers do not have to cover any payouts. Now Heard is countersuing New York Marine and General Insurance Co.  that it promised to pay her defense costs and judgments against her up to a million dollars, no matter what. She says the company hasn't lived up to their end of the bargain.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Why won't these two go away? Why can't they pack up all their money, all their fame, all their good looks, and go away? I'm talking about Amber Heard and Johnny Depp. Amber Heard is at it again. After the infamous trial that goes down in the Fairfax County Courthouse where she and former husband Johnny Depp sue each other round and round and around, now Amber Heard, believe it or not, is back in court,

counter-suing her insurer, insisting it does have to cover the $8.3 million she owes Captain Jack, a.k.a. Johnny Depp. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM. Amber Heard has just filed a countersuit against New York Marine and General Insurance Company, claiming they should cover her losses in the defamation trial. As you will recall, she was ordered to pay millions to her ex-husband, Johnny Depp. So, why are we back in court? Now, she had taken out a $1 million policy with the insurer,

but the company is now arguing it shouldn't have to pay because the jury found Amber committed a willful misconduct act. She argues she had an unconditional deal with the insurance company, and it should protect her no matter what. I can see a big catfight about to go down in court. But how in the world did this whole thing start? The legal drama between former Hollywood couple Johnny Depp and Amber Heard enters a new phase today as the two sides face off in a Virginia courtroom. Depp is suing Heard for $50 million, claiming she defamed him. The trial is expected to feature a long list of celebrity witnesses, including Elon Musk and James Franco. Apparently there's some sort of high-toned and fancy to-do up at the fort, eh?

The Pirates of the Caribbean star filed the lawsuit against Heard in 2019 after she published an op-ed in the Washington Post writing from the perspective of, quote, a public figure representing domestic abuse. The op-ed does not identify her ex-husband by name, but lawyers for Depp say Heard damaged his reputation, claiming that because of the allegations of abuse, Mr. Depp lost movie roles and faced public scorn. If there are enough indicators that the person she was making reference to

is Johnny Depp, that would be sufficient for his lawsuit to move forward. I thought everyone could tell she was referring to Johnny Depp. I mean, I had no idea who else she may have ever even dated. I mean, did you? Nope. Okay. So who else could she be talking about that that's crazy talk right there guys a 50 million dollar showdown going down in a

virginia courtroom with me an all-star panel to make sense of it again welcome i'm nancy grace this is crime story and thanks for being with us at Fox Nation and Series XM 111. Here to make sense of it, Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now entertainment lawyer, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Dr. Charles Hiller, psychologist specializing in domestic violence. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Star of a New Hit series on iHeart, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Alexis Terescha, joining us, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Alexis, right off the bat, what's happening? So Johnny Depp has sued his ex-wife, Amber Heard, who is an actress. She's not as famous as he is, but she is an actress in her own right.

And he is saying that she defamed him when she wrote an op-ed that was published in The Washington Post that said, I survived sexual violence and you can, too. And this was after they had divorced, settled their divorce privately and promised that they weren't going to say anything bad about each other. Wow. And so his claim is that she clearly indicated he, Johnny Depp, is who she's talking about in the op-ed. Take a listen to our cut for our friends at ABC7. Tuesday, a jury in Virginia heard opening statements in actor Johnny Depp's $50 million defamation lawsuit against his ex-wife, actress Amber Heard. He wants to turn this case into a six-week-long public spectacle of the most intimate aspects of their relationship.

Attorneys for both parties giving the Fairfax County courtroom a two-hour preview of disturbing allegations of violent abuse. Throwing things at him hitting him she would tell him he was a coward she would tell him he wasn't a man enough because he wouldn't stay and fight with her heard's attorneys claim photos will show heard battered at the hands of her ex-husband who they call a monster fueled by drug and alcohol abuse. They show bruises and they show cut lips. They show hair pulled out of her hair. They show two black eyes when he head-butted her. You're hearing claims being leveled by actress Amber Heard

against ex-husband Johnny Depp. Are they true? And is this about the actual abuse? Is it a get- back over their last trial? All I know is there's $50 million on the line and the careers of both of them at stake. You were just hearing our friends at ABC7 and earlier from ABC to Daryl Cohen,

former prosecutor, trial attorney, and now entertainment lawyer. What do you make of what's going down in that Virginia courtroom right now? I think that the Virginia jurors are having a blast. Nobody is in danger of going to prison. This is just about money or the lack thereof. I think that Johnny Depp's testimony yesterday was measured as if he was on some sort of a sedative because he never raised, never lowered his voice. It was very calm. I think it's going to be fun.

I think the jury is going to enjoy this. The rest of the country is going to enjoy this. When it's all said and done, the lawyers make the money. Hold on right there. What do you mean when it's all said and done, the lawyers make the money? What I mean by that is both sides. amber's lawyers have heard what's going on obviously and johnny depp's lawyers know what's going on and they're going to be charging and have charged a ton of money and i think that based on the evidence as i have seen it and we'll see how it unfolds see what the jury

does but as i've seen it the lawyers are guaranteed see how it unfolds, see what the jury does. But as I've seen it, the lawyers are guaranteed of making a ton of attorney's fees. Okay, can you be a little more specific? Daryl Cohen, you're the entertainment lawyer. When you say, quote, a ton of money, how much do you think these lawyers make per hour each? I think that they are probably making in the range of $600 to $1,000 an hour. And I wouldn't be surprised if the attorneys on both sides are in the millions. Okay, Heller, Morgan, and Tereschuk, Jackie, we're quitting. How much can you make as a divorce lawyer?

You know what? Forget it. You couldn't pay me $1,000 an hour. I would not be surprised if it's even more than that. Alexis Tereshchuk, most people try to resolve cases out of court for a reason. To avoid incredible, monumental court costs. But not these two. They originally solved it, or settled it, excuse me, for $7 million. And even that is under

scrutiny because what amber had said is she didn't want any money at all she only wanted it to be donated to a charity um perhaps you know domestic violence charity or children's charity seven million dollars that's what they said on so johnny said fine i will make the donation to a charity labor said well well wait a minute give me the money and then i'll make the donation because if johnny makes the seven million dollar donation charity he gets a tax break and that she said wasn't fair however so he gave her the money and the charities who she promised to give it to have said we have never received the full amount of the money i think one a children's hospital got maybe a $250,000 donation, but they were expecting millions more. And so even that money has been.

Wait, she says she was going to give the money to the charity and it never happened? Correct. Very tiny amounts were given. Let me understand another thing, Alexis Teresichuk. They reached a settlement of seven mil that debt paid hurt. And part of the settlement included a clause that neither would disparage the other. Isn't that true? That is exactly correct. And then this.

Take a listen to Hour Code 5, our friend Jessica DeNova. after the Washington Post published this op-ed piece in 2018 written by Heard where she calls herself a survivor of domestic and sexual violence. Heard's attorneys arguing it is protected by the First Amendment and never mentions Depp by name. But Depp's attorneys argue the piece by Heard published two years after their divorce is a self-serving one written in the wake of the MeToo movement, just before the release of Aquaman, where Heard plays the role of Mara. By choosing to lie about her husband for her own personal benefit, Amber Heard forever changed Mr. Depp's life and reputation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Amber Heard, who just did a star turn in Aquaman, ordered to hand over $8.3 million to Pirates of the Caribbean star Johnny Depp. It was a contentious defamation trial from beginning to end, but now she has countersued New York Marine and General Insurance after they refused to pay, asking a judge to let them off the hook. Now, how does this work? Amber Heard had taken a $1 million liability policy to protect her from any defamation claims. What is defamation? It can be oral slander or it can be written libel. The insurer is arguing that because the jury found Amber Heard committed willful misconduct in claims about her husband, Johnny Depp, they don't have to pay. Wow.

Were they there during the trial? Because we sure were. Guys, take a listen to our cut six. This is Steve Fabian from Inside Edition. The testimony is shocking and as personal as it gets. They engaged in what I saw as mutual abuse. When Johnny Depp and Amber Heard were married, they went to this therapist to save their marriage. And now she's spilling the beans in this videotaped testimony played in court at Depp's $50 million defamation suit against ex-wife Amber Heard.

He claims an op-ed she wrote in the Washington Post falsely painted him as an abusive husband. The therapist, Dr. Laurel Anderson, testified the couple had a toxic marriage. He had been well-controlled, I think, for almost 20, 30 years. And then with Ms. Hed, he was triggered. She said Amber told her she was the target of her husband's verbal cruelty. Mr. Depp says to her, no one likes you. You're getting fame from me. I'm falling out of love with you.

You're a whore. Ouch. Okay. That hurts, but it's certainly not $50 million worth of hurt. I mean, I could fix that with a Band-Aid. There's got to be more, so take a listen to Hour Cut 7, Inside Edition. Also giving testimony, Amber's former assistant, Kate James, who was fired by Amber. There is apparently no love lost between these two.

Multiple times screaming at me over the phone, barrages of abusive text messages. She described Amber as extremely difficult. She leapt up out of her chair, put her face approximately four inches from my face. She was spitting in my face and telling me how dare I ask for the salary I was asking for. According to the assistant, Amber was not fond of Depp's friends. She told me she didn't like hanging out in his house with his friends because it was boring and they're all old men playing guitars and it wasn't interesting to her. Hmm.

Let me understand something, Alexis Tereschuk. Isn't it true, as it has come out in evidence at a previous court hearing, that debt would spend $30,000 a month on wine? Yes, that is very true. Okay. Dr. Charles Heller joining me. And boy, do I need a shrink. Well, I'm not sure you need a shrink, Nancy.

I do. I need to understand all this. Dr. Heller, everybody, hold on. I've got to sing your praises one moment, Dr. Heller. Clinical forensic psychologist specializing in domestic violence. Chief forensic consultant, Rockland County, New York. Forensic mental health unit, forensicologist, Rutgers Biomedical and Health Sciences.

I mean, I could keep going on. Can I just put it plainly, Dr. Charles Heller? I would rather try a serial killer than stick my hand between a fight and a divorce. Because those people will shoot you. They will come to your house at night and shoot right through your picture window. Nancy, you're right. Yes.

You're right. I do work with criminal behavior and murders. I specialize in murders. And I can tell you something. These two people didn't know borscht about how to manage a marriage how to manage a difficult person well my husband seemingly manages me fairly well we haven't divorced yet and either one of us is dead but you throw in thirty thousand dollars a month of wine

and i can guarantee you something's going to go wrong a lot goes wrong after one bottle, from what I can tell. But $30,000 a month of wine? They had to both just be drunk out of their head. Well, Nancy, Depp admitted that he was a junkie, that he was addicted to opioids. You're out of your mind when you're addicted to opioids. You can't function. You're not in touch with feelings. But I'm sure he was irritable. He went through self-imposed withdrawal at times.

And I'm sure he was nasty at times. We don't have corroboration of physical abuse, really. But what we do have is corroboration of emotional abuse from both sides. And you can't see the emotional scars. They're hidden, but they're there. And this couple is continuing to attack each other and to destroy each other's lives. You know, I thought for a moment there, Dr. Heller,

I should have known better. Have you ever seen one of those movie trailers where you're looking, for instance, at a grave and all of a sudden a hand comes up out of the ground? You thought it was dead, but it's not. At the end of that $7 million proceeding where they both settled and went their separate ways, I had a funny feeling

it wasn't really dead yet and of course it's not i mean this is so destructive and there's no doubt in my mind that amber heard was referring to johnny depp in that op-ed she She was. Yeah, she probably was. But there's still, there's a lot of pain on both sides, and there was a lot of love on both sides. They didn't want this marriage to turn out like this. They sought out a therapist, a marital therapist, to try to work on things. And that's not something that typical Hollywood people do. I don't know how you can ever make a comeback from this, Dr. Heller. Alexis Tereschuk, isn't it true that it came out in evidence that Amber Heard got up on Johnny Depp's bed,

and I'm sure it was some extravagant, you know, one of those fancy beds like Tom Cruise orders. It costs like $30,000. And it's stuffed with horse hair and lavender and whatever's in there. And took a big crap in the middle of the bed. That is what Johnny, so there was poop in the bed. There absolutely was poop in the bed.

Wait, wait, wait. Whoa, whoa. Alexis, you have given birth. I know. I was there. Remember when your lung collapsed, that whole thing? All right. Yep.

You have changed diapers, right? And I never had a problem with changing diapers. They never really bothered me. That's poop. When a grown woman gets up in her husband's, their bed marital bed and takes a dump that's not a poopy a poopy is what a little baby does it doesn't even smell that was a dump she took a dump on his bed there's really well there are other ways to put it but not any not any better than that i mean you hear heller talking about they didn't want the marriage to end this way i can tell you this if david lynch took a dump in the bed

it's over well it was a dumb dump it was a dumb dump but she says that a dog did it and johnny is like no either you or you know your friend or sister did it. It absolutely was not a dog. But you'd get somebody to do it instead of doing it yourself? I mean, okay, wait a minute. Yeah, someone else, your friend. Gerald Cohen, are we really talking about who took a dump in Johnny Depp's bed? Is that what it's down to? Yes, it is. Because when you're getting a divorce, you argue over who's going to get the crock pot.

I mean, you've handled divorce cases too. People argue about anything. I'm not going to let her have it. It's over. You were horrible. I was terrible. No, you were terrible. You're right, Nancy. It doesn't matter the amount of money. It doesn't matter the value. It's an emotional thing that both male and female seem to get caught up in. And there's no reason get caught up in and there's no reason for it logically but there's every reason for it emotionally so it was an emotional dump okay i'm gonna i'm taking that phrase and then she blamed it she said it was a prank she said oh it's just a prank we were just playing a prank i don't know wait so she admitted she as you say poopied in

johnny depp's bed She said that was a prank. She said it was a harmless prank from, well, she says from her and her friends. But I would, yeah. Okay. But here we are. And this is what Depp is saying on the stand in the last hours. Take a listen to our cut 10. This is Depp on the stand. One day you're Cinderella, so to speak,

and then in 0.6 seconds you're Quasimodo. And I didn't deserve that, nor did my children, nor did the people who have believed in me for all these years. I didn't want anybody, any of those people to believe that I had done them wrong or lied to them or that I was a fraud. I pride myself on honesty. I pride myself on truth. Truth is the only thing I'm interested in. Court documents that we got our mitts on show Amber Heard is arguing that she struck a quote unconditional deal that protects her no matter what. The countersuit is coming after Depp files an appeal over the court's verdict that he pays two million dollars to Heard. Yes,

it's not just Amber Heard arguing about money. It's Johnny Depp, too. Remember, the jury awarded money to him from her, the bulk of the award. They also ordered a little bit of money from him to her. That's what he is appealing. He has actually filed an appeal over the $2 million he's supposed to pay her. So they're both at it again. Are we going to all get dragged back to court? Straight out to Caitlin Becker joining us, senior reporter, DailyMail.com. Caitlin, give me a recap of the jury's decision.

A jury of seven. Well, Nancy, they overwhelmingly sided for Johnny Depp. They found that Amber Heard's 2018 op-ed in the Washington Post defamed him that she knowingly wrote false information, that she did so with malice. I was pretty shocked. And at the end of all of that, they awarded a massive amount of damages, $10 million in compensatory damages and $5 million in punitive damages. Now, that did change because there is that $350,000 cap on punitive damages in the state of Virginia. So that number was slashed quite a bit. And then they turned to Amber Heard's counterclaim against Johnny Depp, finding in her favor on one of those counts, finding that he defamed her through statements made by his lawyer,

and then ordering him to pay her $2 million. So when all is said and done, when all of that math is done, Johnny Depp essentially walked away with about $8.35 million in damages. Okay, so the math is the jury awarded him $10 million in compensation for alleged damage to his career, $5 million in punishment, punitive damages against Amber Heard and for debt. Then that was reduced. That $15 million was reduced because in Virginia, for punitive damages,

you can only get $350,000 max. So the $5 million was reduced to $350,000 max so the five mil was reduced to 350,000 that leaves us at 10 million 350,000 dollars but then the jury in the number two claim by Hurd awarded Hurd two million so you now take the 10 million 350,000 minus,000 he owes Heard, and you end up with $8,350,000. Question to you, Caitlin Becker, why were you shocked? I think this whole case almost felt like the legal embodiment of her original op-ed. She spoke out against sexual violence and faced the culture's wrath. I watched every day of this trial. I watched the testimony.

And from my perspective, I feel like she maybe proved that Johnny Depp was abusive. I also felt like Johnny Depp proved that she was abusive. They both seemed like abusive partners. So I was really surprised at the end of it that Johnny Depp's celebrity had kind of won out through all of this. I think the jury turned on Amber Heard when she got up on that stand and felt like she was acting. And they were endeared to Johnny Depp when he got up on that stand and felt like they were front and center with a celebrity who's been in their homes for decades. To you, Daryl Cohen, former felony prosecutor, now veteran civil attorney, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Daryl Cohen, what do you make of it?

Well, I think that Sarah Maiden just was not likable. And Nancy, we've talked about this forever. You have to have likability on the stand. And the public opinion opinion the court of public opinion didn't like amber didn't like the way she was i thought finally she changed her persona after she changed her pr people but it wasn't enough and i don't think it was about what she wrote and what johnny depp's did. I think it was more about the way that the public just didn't like her. So maybe Aquaman was her last stand. I don't know,

but I do think it'll be fine. You know what? You're not here to say, I don't know. You're the civil lawyer expert. And I can tell tell you it's not a popularity contest. Although when a jury doesn't like a witness, they're much less prone to believe the witness. I believe the jury smelled her lies on other issues like the charity donation that she never made that she swore under oath she had made like the claiming that no no one in her camp tipped off tmz to show up at the courthouse when she got a tro temporary restraining order and was supposed to turn a certain way so they could get a photograph of the bruise on her face. That didn't just happen. That was orchestrated. They claim that Depp pushed Kate Moss down the stairs and then Kate Moss appears as a rebuttal

witness, which is very powerful when you get the last word. Depp brought her on as a rebuttal witness to say that didn't happen. I mean, there's a huge list of lies that she wasn't setting him up. Then why all the videos and the photographs? That it wasn't about the money at all when testimony came in that she demanded use of his three penthouse apartments and a Range Rover to boot. Now, what does this have to do with him hitting her? Nothing. It doesn't mean he didn't hit her. But what it did do, Daryl Cohen, is hurt her credibility, as opposed to debt that gets up there and goes, yeah, I do drugs. I'm an alcoholic. I slam cabinets and I kick things and I throw things, but I don't hit anybody. He owned up to it all except the beating. So that is why I believe the jury rejected her

claims. Not because they didn't think Depp ever hit her, but because they thought she was lying about other things. Jury nullification. And that's partially what they did. They liked her. Not at all. They liked him a lot. And they did take, in my view, their thoughts about her lying. They did take the fact.

And the America is really cool. If you do something wrong as a celebrity and you admit it after a while, it's okay. But if you don't admit it, it's never okay. And so our fair maiden is just not a fair maiden. She lost a lot more money than she won if either of them ever collect. The lawyers will. The lawyers have. Yeah, you're right. The lawyers will collect. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This legal battle also concerns Travelers Commercial Insurance Company. Travelers initially sued New York Marine to get reimbursed for half of what it spent defending Amber Heard. Remember those lawyers sitting with her? Many of them were from the insurance company. So Travelers sues New York Marine

to get half of the money it, Travelers, spent defending Amber Heard. Heard's homeowner's policy that she had with Travelers covered liable up to $500,000. New York Marine liability was for $1 million. So basically, the gist of that lawsuit was travelers believing Heard had the right to pick her own lawyers. New York Marine disagreed. So far, a judge has agreed with New York Marine that so far a judge has agreed with New York Marine's desire to use local cheaper lawyers. And you see that very often when a case goes to litigation, you have insurance, the insurance company will find for you a local lawyer that has an expertise in the field in which you're suing. So that is not

unusual at all. But wouldn't you know that two millionaires are going back to court arguing over money? Take a listen to Our Cut 65, our friend Ron Allen at NBC. Cheering, yelling and screaming support for Johnny Depp, as has been the case for the last number of weeks. He had been winning this in the court of public opinion. It seemed obvious online, social media, and as the verdicts were read, cheering outside the courthouse from a small group of people here today. We don't have the huge crowd that we've had for the past number of weeks because Depp is not here. He is in England, he's playing a number of concerts, and he has just released a statement, which I can read to you in part. It says, six years ago, my life, the life of my children, the lives of those closest

to me, and also the lives of the people who for many, many years have supported and believed in me were forever changed, all in the blink of an eye. Then he goes on to say, and six years later, the jury gave me my life back. I am truly humbled that is what death has always said this is about it wasn't about money it wasn't about vengeance it was about trying to get his good name and reputation back because he vehemently denied the allegations that he was an abuser that he that he had committed violent acts against amber heard okay while he is happy, his camp is happy, and he says the jury

has given me my life back, just the opposite on the other side of the courtroom. Take a listen to Hour Cut 66, our friends at NBC. This is coming from Amber Heard. The disappointment I feel today is beyond words. I'm heartbroken that the mountain of evidence still was not enough to stand up to the disproportionate power, influence, and sway of my ex-husband." Hurd goes on to write, I'm even more disappointed with what this verdict means for other women. It's a setback. It sets back the clock to a time when a woman who spoke up and spoke out could be publicly shamed and humiliated. It sets back the idea that violence against women is to be taken seriously. She goes on to say, finally, I'm sad I lost this case, but I'm even sadder still that I seem to have lost a

right I thought I had as an American to speak freely and openly. Now, this statement came to us just minutes after the verdict came out, so it seemed to be a prepared statement that Amber Heard sent out to the press. To Dr. Charles Heller, joining us, clinical forensic psychologist specializing in domestic violence. He's the chief forensic consultant, Rockland County. Dr. Heller, thank you for being with us. There you see Amber Heard painting the court battle very much in a David and Goliath style, where she would be David in her mind and Depp Goliath style, where she would be David in her mind and Depp, Goliath. Now, as far as their bankability, their box office numbers, I agree with her.

But I do not believe that it was necessarily Johnny Depp's popularity that caused this verdict. I think the jury caught her in lies and they just lost all respect or all likability for her. For instance, and I'm not saying you never hit her. I'm saying she lied about other matters and the jury did not believe her, which they are allowed to do under the law. I think they hit each other. But, for instance, all this business about donating the $7 million divorce settlement to charity, instead of insisting until she was blue in the face

that she did donate it. And then the ACLU comes up and says, yeah, well, no, you didn't. Why didn't she just say, you know what? I had the best intentions. I donated two or three million dollars, but then I ran out of money. Then I caught this lawsuit. I had the best intentions, but no, I never finished giving the money. I gave all I thought that I could. So there.

Nancy. What? The world has gotten a great lesson in how to assess false allegations. This is what I do all the time. And there's a certain procedure a forensic psychologist has to follow in terms of assessment of an allegation. You have to look at patterns. You have to look at any past dishonesty about anything, especially the situation. Oh, dear Lord in heaven, man. Everybody's lied.

That doesn't mean you can't be a victim. They caught her in many lies. And he was actually honest about a lot of his deficits and acting out in terms of alcohol and drugs. That's a really nice way to put it. His deficits. Man, he was a raging guy when he would be high on drugs or alcohol. But again, you're talking about lies, about other things that affect credibility. I think that's what you're saying, Dr. Heller. That's what I'm saying. You know, it's not so much public opinion that changed this verdict toward Depp.

It's not that the jury liked him more than her. It's simply the facts. The evidence didn't match up with what she was saying. Joining me right now is a special guest, Julie Owens, the facts, the evidence didn't match up with what she was saying. Joining you right now is a special guest, Julie Owens, victim advocate, domestic violence expert consultant, and you can find her at domesticviolenceexpert.org. Julie Owens, weigh in. Good morning, Nancy. It's a devastating decision and will reverberate for years, I'm sure, with a chilling effect on other domestic violence victims.

There is no doubt in my mind, after more than 30 years of working in similar situations that were in his high profile. Johnny Depp is a textbook abuser, Nancy, and he has every single characteristic of a domestic violence offender, whereas she does not. He's a great actor. He's playing the role of a lifetime. This is a man who said, we're married now. I can punch her in the face and no one can do anything about it. This is a man who fantasized about killing her, who told her he's going to ruin her reputation, who said she's begging for total humiliation. She's going to get it. I have no mercy, no fear. I'm happy she wants to fight this out. No victim says those things. You know, I'm thinking through everything you're saying. There's no question that we have to take witnesses and victims as we find them.

You can't change a victim's personality. I will never forget Julie Owens in one of the first cases I tried. Not the first, but one of the first. I got a case that none of the, and you know how it goes, Daryl Cohen, when you first go to the district attorney's office, you're what they call a mule. Okay. And you are sent to all the courtrooms and you basically are handed the cases that the permanently assigned, the veteran trial lawyers don't want to try. For instance, my first trial was a shoplifting from a Kmart where the guy didn't take anything. And you'll

remember Harvey Moskowitz, our friend, great trial lawyer, gave me the case to try and then immediately went out of town with Arla, his wife. I was thrilled to try a case, but then I realized the guy got a CD player. He cut it off the display, stuck it down his pants, put it in a rug, got all the way to the front door of the Kmart, and then left it in the rug. Well, the deputy dog security guys at Kmart threw him on the asphalt and yanked him back in and arrested him for shoplifting. He didn't have anything on him. He left it in the store. I had to try the case, and I got a conviction, Daryl, on attempted shoplifting. So in the next case I had, Daryl, I had a woman that was arm robbed with a knife.

What I really didn't want the jury to find out was she was a stripper and she was coming out of a strip club at like 4 a.m dressed as a cheerleader and a guy pulled a knife and took all her tips well i thought they wouldn't like her if they found out she was a stripper so i got her up there and um i said you know how long have you lived in atlanta you know where did you go to school where do you go go to church? Blah, blah, blah. I looked over at the jury and they were like, there's no way to change a witness or a victim,

Daryl Cohen. You got to go with what you got. And what Julie is alluding to is no victim, no witness is perfect. So what? You're never going to find for them because they're not perfect? Darrell, are you there? I am here, and I'm listening to everything.

And I think very honestly, the problem was, again, you talk about her lies. I agree. I talk about her likability. Hopefully other people agree. Unfortunately, her likability didn't exist. She had a lack of it. And when she had her hair a certain way in the courtroom, when she had her makeup a certain way in the courtroom in the beginning, it wasn't working. And Nancy, you only have one chance to make a person.

I hope you're not boiling this down to her hair and makeup because that is not what happened in the courtroom that is not what happened this is what happened what about kate moss listen we were leaving the room and johnny left the room before i did and there had been a rainstorm and as I left the room, I slid down the stairs and I hurt my back. How did you... I apologize, Ms. Moss. Please continue. And I screamed because I didn't know what had happened to me and I was in pain and he came running back to help me and carried me to my room and got me medical attention did mr. depth push you in any way down the stairs no during the

course of your relationship did he ever push you down any stairs no he never pushed me kicked me or threw me down any stairs okay the johnny dip team could not bring in kate moss unless and until amber heard side brought her up at that moment it's like a vampire then once you're invited you can bring in the evidence and And they did. And it was toward the end of the trial, one of the last things echoing in the jurors' ears, and they hear yet another claim made by Amber Heard was false. I think that had a great deal to do with her undoing lies about Kate Moss being beaten by Johnny Depp. That's not true. The charity, the poop on the bed, I mean, it just goes on and on and on. That doesn't mean she was never struck, but it does mean she lied. Since the trial, Amber Heard has been spotted all around the world. First of all,

she was spotted at a Spanish getaway. Now, despite facing a massive multi-million dollar legal bill she says she cannot afford, she appeared carefree with her daughter on a Spain getaway. Specifically, Palma de Mallorca. It's an incredibly beautiful resort city on the Mediterranean. With her was her little girl. She was holding her daughter's hand and took her for a ride on a swing at a local park.

That's where the paparazzi found her. But she hasn't just been in Spain post-trial. She was also spotted in London in a wine store. She had her daughter with her again there. She says she is vowing to focus on motherhood full time. So while Amber Heard is jet-setting from the U.S. to Spain, from Spain to London, she's got the lawyers busy at work. As does Johnny Depp. Both of them not going down without a fight. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.