Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Johnny Depp/Amber Heard Sling Mud in Court

Episode Date: April 20, 2022

Actor Johnny Depp's testimony continues in his $50 million defamation lawsuit again his former wife. On Tuesday, Depp testified that Amber Heard has “grossly embellished” incidents in their marriage. Depp told the court that he had never hit Heard and that her characterization of his behavior while on drugs, was inaccurate. Depp told the court that there was “no moment where I would’ve been considered out of control” during his marriage. Depp sued Heard over an op-ed published in the Washington Post. The actress characterized herself as a domestic abuse survivor, but didn't mention Depp by name. Depp alleged defamation because Heard’s claims covered the time they were married. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Darryl Cohen -  Former Assistant District Attorney, Fulton County, Georgia, Defense Attorney, Cohen, Cooper, Estep, & Allen, LLC, www.ccealaw.com Dr. Charles Heller - Clinical and Forensic Psychologist Specializing in Domestic Violence, Chief Forensic Consultant, Rockland County (New York) Forensic Mental Health Unit, Forensic Psychologist, Rutgers Biomedical and Health Sciences Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories dot Com, Twitter: @swimmie2009    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Well, it's a war between the gods in a Virginia courtroom as Johnny Depp, remember Pirates of the Caribbean, faces off against his ex Amber Heard. And let me tell you, when we say slinging mud, that's putting it mildly. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Series XM 111. Will it ever end? Will there be anything left of Johnny Depp by the end of this proceeding? We'll find out.

Take a listen to this. The legal drama between former Hollywood couple Johnny Depp and Amber Heard enters a new phase today as the two sides face off in a Virginia courtroom. Depp is suing Heard for $50 million, claiming she defamed him. The trial is expected to feature a long list of celebrity witnesses, including Elon Musk and James Franco. Apparently, there's some sort of high-toned and fancy to-do up at the Fort, eh? The Pirates of the Caribbean star filed the lawsuit against Heard in 2019 after she published

an op-ed in The Washington Post writing from the perspective of, quote, a public figure representing domestic abuse. The op-ed does not identify her ex-husband by name, but lawyers for Depp say Heard damaged his reputation, claiming that because of the allegations of abuse, Mr. Depp lost movie roles and faced public scorn. If there are enough indicators that the person she was making reference to is Johnny Depp, that would be sufficient for his lawsuit to move forward.

I thought everyone could tell she was referring to Johnny Depp. I mean, I had no idea of who else she may have ever even dated. I mean, did you? Nope. Okay. So who else she may have ever even dated. I mean, did you? Nope. Okay. So who else could she be talking about? That's crazy talk right there. Guys, a $50 million showdown going down in a Virginia courtroom with me,

an all-star panel to make sense of it. Again, welcome. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Story, and thanks for being with us at Fox Nation Series 6, 7-111. Here to make sense of it, Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now entertainment lawyer, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Dr. Charles Heller, psychologist specializing in domestic violence. Justice Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a new hit series on iHeart, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Alexis Tereska joining us, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter.

Alexis, right off the bat, what's happening? So Johnny Depp has sued his ex-wife, Amber Heard, who is an actress. She's not as famous as he is, but she is an actress in her own right. And he is saying that she defamed him when she wrote an op-ed that was published in the Washington Post that said, I survived sexual violence and you can too. And this was after they had divorced, settled their divorce privately and promised that they weren't going to say anything bad about each other. Wow. And so his claim is that she clearly indicated he, Johnny Depp, is who she's talking about in the op-ed.

Take a listen to our cut for our friends at ABC7. Tuesday, a jury in Virginia heard opening statements in actor Johnny Depp's $50 million defamation lawsuit against his ex-wife, actress Amber Heard. He wants to turn this case into a six-week-long public spectacle of the most intimate aspects of their relationship. Attorneys for both parties giving the Fairfax County courtroom a two-hour preview of disturbing allegations of violent abuse. Throwing things at him, hitting him. She would tell him he was a coward. She would tell him he wasn't man enough because he wouldn't stay and fight with her. Heard's attorneys claim photos will show Heard battered at the hands of her ex-husband,

who they call a monster fueled by drug and alcohol abuse they show bruises and they show cut lips they show hair pulled out of her hair they show two black eyes when he head-butted her you're hearing claims being leveled by actress amber heard against ex husband johnny depp are they true and is this about the actual abuse? Is it a get back over their last trial? All I know is there's $50 million on the line and the careers of both of them at stake. You were just hearing our friends at ABC7 and earlier from ABC to Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor prosecutor, trial attorney and now entertainment lawyer. What do you make of what's going down in that Virginia courtroom right now?

I think that the Virginia jurors are having a blast. Nobody is in danger of going to prison. This is just about money or the lack thereof. I think that Johnny Depp's testimony yesterday was measured as if he was on some sort of a sedative because he never raised, never lowered his voice. It was very calm. I think it's going to be fun. I think the jury is going to enjoy this. The rest of the country is going to enjoy this.

When it's all said and done, the lawyers make the money. Hold on right there. What do you mean when it's all said and done, the lawyers make the money? What I mean by that is both sides. Amber's lawyers have heard what's going on, obviously, and Johnny Depp's lawyers know what's going on and they're going to be charging and have charged a ton of money. And I think that based on the evidence as I have seen it, and we'll see how it unfolds, see what the jury does. But as I've seen it, and we'll see how it unfolds, see what the jury does. But as I've seen it, the lawyers are guaranteed of making a ton of attorney's fees. Okay, can you be a little more specific?

Daryl Cohen, you're the entertainment lawyer. When you say, quote, a ton of money, how much do you think these lawyers make per hour each? I think that they are probably making in the range of $600 to $1,000 an hour, and I wouldn't be surprised if the attorneys on both sides are in the millions. Okay, Heller, Morgan, and Tereschuk, Jackie, we're quitting. How much can you make as a divorce lawyer? You know what? Forget it. You couldn't pay me $1,000 an hour. I would not be surprised if it's even more than that. Alexis Tereshchuk, most people try to resolve cases out of court for a reason, to avoid incredible, monumental court costs, but not these two.

They originally solved it, or settled it, excuse me, for seven million dollars. And even that is under scrutiny because what Amber had said is she didn't want any money at all. She only wanted it to be donated to a charity, perhaps, you know, a domestic violence charity or a children's charity. Seven million dollars. That's what they said it on. So Johnny said, fine, I will make the donation to a charity. Amber said, well, wait a minute, give me the money and then I'll make the donation because if Johnny makes the $7 million donation charity, he gets a tax break. And that she said wasn't fair. However, so he gave her the money and the charity through she promised to give it to have

said, we have never received the full amount of the money. I think one, a children's hospital got maybe a $250,000 donation, but they were expecting millions more. And so even that money has been... Wait, she says she was going to give the money to the charity and it never happened? Correct. Very tiny amounts were given.

Now, let me understand another thing, Alexis Tereszczuk. They reached a settlement of seven mil that debt paid her. And part of the settlement included a clause that neither would disparage the other isn't that true that is exactly correct and then this take a listen to our cut five our friend jessica denova the lawsuit comes after the washington post published this op-ed piece in 2018 written by Heard where she calls herself a survivor of domestic and sexual violence. Heard's attorneys

arguing it is protected by the First Amendment and never mentions Depp by name. But Depp's attorneys argue the piece by Heard published two years after their divorce is a self-serving one written in the wake of the Me Too movement just before the release of Aquaman where Heard plays the role of Mara. By choosing to lie about her husband for her own personal benefit, Amber Heard forever changed Mr. Depp's life and reputation. The trial is expected to last through the end of May. The list of witnesses that could potentially testify is at about 100. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What I'm hearing, Daryl Cohen, is that this case is not about whether there was or is not domestic violence. It's about the clause in the settlement that says we will not disparage each other.

I'm giving you seven mil. You agree not to badmouth me and I will notmouth you, and we'll go our separate ways. And according to Depp, this article that she wrote in the Washington Post did identify him, maybe not by name, but identified him nonetheless. And that, according to Depp, was a violation of the clause. Yes, no. I think the word is yo maybe yes and maybe no I'll take it it's not mentioned by name you got it yeah but you don't have to mention someone by name to know who you're talking about like if I said something like oh gosh if I referred to a pop star that wore one glove, we would all know I was talking about Michael Jackson.

If I said, love me tender, you'd know I was talking about Elvis Presley. I mean, it goes on and on and on. You don't have to name the person by name for them to be clearly identifiable, Daryl Cohen. Well, I agree with that, Nancy. But on the other hand, what the jury is going to hear is Hollywood brought to Virginia. What the jury is going to do

is enjoy this and feel sorry for both sides. That's what this is all about. And this is about vindication for Johnny Depp and trying to repair his reputation, maybe to his kids, maybe to the world.

But is it smart? I think not. Guys, take a listen to our cut six. This is Steve Fabian from Inside Edition. The testimony is shocking and as personal as it gets. They engaged in what I saw as mutual abuse. When Johnny Depp and Amber Heard were married, they went to this therapist to save their marriage. And now she's spilling the beans in this videotaped testimony Johnny Depp and Amber Heard were married, they went to this therapist to save their marriage.

And now she's spilling the beans in this videotaped testimony played in court at Depp's $50 million defamation suit against ex-wife Amber Heard. He claims an op-ed she wrote in the Washington Post falsely painted him as an abusive husband. The therapist, Dr. Laurel Anderson, testified the couple had a toxic marriage. He had been well-controlled, I think, for almost 20, 30 years. And then with Ms. Hurd, he was triggered. She said Amber told her she was the target of her husband's verbal cruelty. Mr. Depp says to her, no one likes you. You're getting fame from me.

I'm falling out of love with you. You're a whore. Ouch. Okay. That hurts, but it certainly certainly not $50 million worth of hurt. I mean, I could fix that with a Band-Aid. There's got to be more, so take a listen to Hour Cut 7, Inside Edition. Also giving testimony, Amber's former assistant, Kate James, who was fired by Amber. There is apparently no love lost between these two. Multiple times screaming at me over the phone, barrages of abusive text messages.

She described Amber as extremely difficult. She leapt up out of her chair, put her face approximately four inches from my face. She was spitting in my face and telling me how dare I ask for the salary I was asking for. According to the assistant, Amber was not fond of Depp's friends. She told me she didn't like hanging out in his house with his friends because it was boring and they're all old men playing guitars and it wasn't interesting to her. Let me understand something. Alexis Tereschuk, isn't it true, as it has come out in evidence at a previous court hearing, that debt would spend $30,000 a month on wine? Yes, that is very true.

Okay. Dr. Charles Heller joining me. And boy, do I need a shrink. Well, I'm not sure you need a shrink, Nancy. I do. I need to understand all this. Dr. Heller, everybody, hold on. I've got to sing your praises one moment, Dr. Heller. Clinical forensic psychologist specializing in domestic violence. Chief forensic consultant, Rockland County, New York,

forensic mental health unit, forensic psychologist, Rutgers biomedical and health sciences. I mean, I could keep going on. Can I just put it plainly, Dr. Charles Heller? I would rather try a serial killer than stick my hand between a fight and a divorce because those people will shoot you they will come to your house at night and shoot right through your picture window nancy you're right yes you're right i i do work uh with criminal behavior and murders i specialize in murders. And I can tell you something. These two people didn't know

borscht about how to manage a marriage, how to manage a difficult person. Well, my husband seemingly manages me fairly well. We haven't divorced yet, and neither one of us is dead. But you throw in $30,000 a month of wine, and I can guarantee you something's going to go wrong. A lot goes wrong after one bottle, from what I can tell. But $30,000 a month of wine? They had to both just be drunk out of their head. Well, Nancy, Depp admitted that he was a junkie, that he was addicted to opioids.

You're out of your mind when you're addicted to opioids. You can't function. You're not in touch with feelings. But I'm sure he was irritable. He went through self-imposed withdrawal at times. And I'm sure he was nasty at times. We don't have corroboration of physical abuse, really. But what we do have is corroboration of emotional abuse from both sides. And you can't see the emotional scars. They're hidden, but they're there. And this couple is continuing to attack each other and to destroy each other's lives. You know, I thought for a moment there, Dr. Heller, I should have known better. Have you ever seen one of those movie trailers where you're looking, for instance, at a grave and all of a sudden a hand comes up out of the ground? You thought it was dead, but it's not.

At the end of that $7 million proceeding where they both settled and went their separate ways, I had a funny feeling it wasn't really dead yet. And, of course, it's not. I mean, this is so destructive. And there's no doubt in my mind that Amber Heard was referring to Johnny Depp in that op-ed. She was. Yeah, she probably was. But there's still, there's a lot of pain on both sides, and there was a lot of love on both sides. They didn't want this marriage to turn out like this. They sought out a therapist, a marital therapist, to try to work on things.

And that's not something that typical Hollywood people do. I don't know how you can ever make a comeback from this, Dr. Heller. Alexis Tereschuk, isn't it true that it came out in evidence that Amber Heard got up on Johnny Depp's bed, and I'm sure it was some extravagant, you know, one of those fancy beds like Tom Cruise orders. It costs like $30,000, and it's stuffed with horse hair and lavender and whatever's in there, and took a big crap in the middle of the bed. So that is what Johnny, so there was poop in the bed. There absolutely was poop in the bed.

Wait, wait, wait. Whoa, whoa. Alexis, you have given birth. I know. I was there. Remember when your lung collapsed, that whole thing? All right. Yep.

You have changed diapers, right? And I never had a problem with changing diapers. They never really bothered me. That's poop when a grown woman gets up in her husband's their bed their marital bed and takes a dump that's not a poopy a poopy is what a little baby does it doesn't even smell that was a dump she took a dump on his bed there's really well there are other ways to put it but not any not any better than that i mean you hear heller talking about they didn't want the marriage to end this way i can tell you this if david lynch took a dump in the bed it's over well it was a

it was a dumb dump but she says that a dog did it and johnny's like no either you or you know your friend or sister did it absolutely was not a dog you'd get somebody to do it instead of doing it yourself i mean okay wait someone else that your friend gerald cohen are we really talking about who took a dump in johnny dip's bed is that what it's down to yes it is because when you're getting a divorce you argue over who's going to get the crockpot. I mean, you've handled divorce cases, too. People argue about anything. I'm not going to let her have it.

It's over. You were horrible. I was terrible. No, you were terrible. You're right, Nancy. It doesn't matter the amount of money. It doesn't matter the value. It's an

emotional thing that both male and female seem to get caught up in and there's no reason for it logically but there's every reason for it emotionally so it was an emotional dump okay I'm gonna I'm taking that phrase and then she blamed it she said it was a prank she said oh it's just a prank we were just playing a prank I don't't know. Wait, so she admitted she, as you say, poopied in Johnny Depp's bed. She said that was a prank? She said it was a harmless prank from, well, she says from her and her friends. But I would, yeah. Okay, but here we are.

And this is what Depp is saying on the stand in the last hours. Take a listen to our cut 10. This is De saying on the stand in the last hours. Take a listen to our cut 10. This is Depp on the stand. One day you're Cinderella, so to speak, and then in 0.6 seconds you're Quasimodo. I didn't deserve that, nor did my children, nor did the people who have believed in me for all these years. I didn't want anybody, any of those people, to believe that I had done them wrong or lied to them or that I was a fraud.

I pride myself on honesty. I pride myself on truth. Truth is the only thing I'm interested in. And more from Depp on the stand, our cut nine. I thought it was diabolical that my children would have to go to school and have their friends or people in the school approach them with the infamous people magazine cover with misheard with a dark bruise on her face. And then it just kept the, it kept multiplying.

It just kept getting bigger and bigger. So it was my responsibility, I felt, to not only attempt to clear my name for the sake of, for many reasons, but I wanted to clear my children of this hard thing that they were having to read about their father, which was untrue. Alexis Tereschik, joining us, CrimeOnline.com. Joining us from Hollywood, Alexis, what is Depp talking about? So as their marriage was breaking down, there was Amber Heard claimed that he, that Johnny punched her,

hit her in the face and that she had a bruise on her face. And this was on the cover of People magazine. However, there are multiple witnesses who say they saw her the next day. There are photographs of her the day that after the punch allegedly happened, she was at an event, she was outside and there was no evidence of a bruise. And in fact, Johnny's friend and next door neighbor testified in court. He said, I saw her the next day and I didn't, she, and she told me, oh, you know, Johnny hit me, but he said, I looked and I didn't see anything at all. Now her attorneys

did question him and say, do you know anything about makeup? Couldn't she have been wearing concealer? He admitted, no, I don't, but I didn't see anything. And she was trying to show it to me. So that is what Johnny is talking about. And also, I just want to say he is known in Hollywood as being really a great dad. So when he talks about his children at school, he was there every day to pick up his kids from school and was very involved in their lives. And then he said on the stand, he said, you know, she ever tried to stop me from seeing my kids. And this was such a tough thing for me because they were so they were still young. They were still teenagers. And that really was a rift in their relationship as well.

Just got Morgan from what I and Alexis, correct me if I'm wrong, please, because I think I heard Alexis say that this witness stated Amber Heard was trying to show him the bruise on her face, but he couldn't see it. Explain to me about contusions, bruising. I mean, a bruise of that nature, wouldn't it be evident the next day? Yeah, it would. And, you know, one of the things we do in forensics, and as it applies to not just death investigation, but also where we have abuse cases. So we have social workers that go out to try to assess people in these violent domestic situations. One of the things we do is we can actually age bruising. And for, you know, and folks at home will understand this because most of us have had a bruise at some point in time, right? So within about zero to two days, you've got this kind of reddish discoloration

and you've got associated swelling. So if it happens within that timeframe, you'll see that. And of course, there's a time progression where, and it's going to be variable from person to person, but from two to five days is when it starts to turn kind of blue, purple. And then, you know, you get through all those disgusting colors like green and yellow and all those sorts of things. And then it resolves. But in the immediate, to your point, Nancy, yeah, you would have seen that and you would have seen associated swelling. And yeah, they're in Hollywood. And I know that this Amber Hurts probably knows how to apply makeup.

For all I know, she has somebody applying makeup for her. But you're not going to be able to get past the swelling, and I think that that would be quite noticeable. Alexis, did you tell me the witness stated that Amber Heard was trying to show him the bruise? He did. He said that. And who is he? Oh, this is a next-door neighbor of Johnny's that lives in there. Johnny had many, many, many houses, but they lived in downtown Los Angeles in a very flucid building with lofts, a high-rise. And this was his next-door neighbor there. And so he saw Amber in the daylight in the lobby of the loft building.

So I think I heard you say something about an event where she appeared and photos show no bruising. Yes. So there were, when the story came out that she, when the image got released of her with a bruise, there were multiple reports that she had, she attended events. So perhaps either before or after she saw this neighbor in the lobby that next day, she was at an event and there were pictures of her on social media and they did not show a bruise. Not only the issue that you've heard about his children, Depp also testifies in court that this has greatly affected his job. Take a listen to our cut. See, this is Depp on the stand. Her accusations had sort of permeated the industry and then made its way through media

and social media, became quite a global, let's say, quotequote, fact, if you will. And since I knew that there was no truth to it whatsoever, I felt it my responsibility to stand up, not only for myself in that instance, but stand up for my children, who at the time were 14 and 16. To Daryl Cohen, explain how this entire saga has affected Depp in the movie industry or hasn't? I think in the beginning, when he apparently lost his Pilots of the Caribbean franchise tag,

it was very devastating financially. And I don't have any idea or any insight as to how much money he had, has, or will have. But I think now he's trying to rehabilitate himself so that he becomes a leading man once again or a leading pirate, as it may be, once again. Again, Nancy, if I was Johnny Depp and I'm not, I never would have filed this lawsuit

because the legs that this did not have, it now has, they're very long legs, and it's going to have a very interesting effect on his and Amber Heard's career. And it may not hurt either one of them. It may actually help them. But as I said before, the lawyers win, no matter who else does. But how could this possibly help Depp or Heard? Unless Depp wins.

I mean, whoever wins is going to help them. Not necessarily. I don't think either of them are going to win. I think it's possible, and not necessarily probable, that because they're getting their name out there, he is becoming, once again, a star. Think of Chris Rock, who got hit by Will Smith. Chris Rock was fading. Now he's back up there. The more people get their names out, the more they're viewed, the more tickets people will buy, the more a producer may say, you know, he's got a bad reputation or had one, but he's over it. Let's use it because we'll sell tickets.

We can give him a lot of money and we'll make a lot more money. The same with Amber Heard. Who is Amber Heard? She wasn't very prominent for a while. Now she's back in the news. Does it make sense to me? No, but Hollywood doesn't make sense. It makes money.

Well, she's back in the news because of this lawsuit. I mean, Alexis Teresich, I'm not sure, but isn't it true that even after all the allegations, Amber Heard was rehired to be in Aquaman 2, as I recall? She was. And Johnny Depp was fired from the Fantastic Beasts series, which is the sort of another part of Harry Potter, which is a J.K. Rowling production. So he lost his job in that after after the settlement. So the settlement happened and then he sued her. And he sued the British tabloid The Sun for calling him a wife beater.

And he lost that case. And the British court ruled, well, you basically are a wife beater. And there then he lost his case and the british court ruled well you basically are a wife beater and there then he lost his job in the fantastic beasts so he has he is touring with his band around the world but he doesn't have any movie roles right now so alexis tereschuk he lost out on literally hundreds of millions of dollars by losing the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise. Then he lost out. He stepped down at urging, I'm sure, from starring as Grindelwald, the antagonist in the, I call it the Harry Potter movies, but it's really Fantastic Beasts movies by J.K. Rowling, which was a huge big deal

because that's part of the Potter lore. To be cut out of that is like Judy Garland being cut out of Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz. Those are iconic movies and will always be watched for years to come. Those were two major, major losses for Johnny Depp. Right now, to my understanding, the only place that he's been hired to shoot a movie is going to be in France. It's going to be shot at Versailles,

where he will play, I believe, Louis XV. Yep, exactly. It's been announced that he will star in a film. It's directed by a French director, and it will begin filming this summer in Versailles, which is interesting because his ex-wife, Vanessa Paradis, is French. They spent lots and lots of, he lived in Paris for years and years. And so he's kind of returning to the roots. And she has, by the way, never said anything bad about him

and has always said there was never any violence in our relationship at all. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, it's really interesting to me, Daryl Cohen and Dr. Charles Heller, and Joe Scott Morgan, you haven't piped in once, I'm really worried about you. But Cohen and Heller, you know, it's interesting, the things that Hollywood chooses to forgive.

For instance, Roman Polanski raped a 14-year-old girl in a hot tub, but they give him standing ovations. And the wake, I really think they're afraid of being canceled if they rehire Johnny Depp. What about it, Dr. Heller? Well, these two have suffered a lot of stress. They're not aging well, Well, these two have suffered a lot of stress. They're not aging well, but I think they're going to come back in different kinds of roles and be as successful as they can be. They're going to be successful again, but it's going to be a lot different for them. I think you're absolutely right about that.

And I would like to know the truth as to whether her was actually abused then we have the whole aspect of prescription drugs and no when you've got a bad situation and a couple is arguing of course i'm just a jd i'm certainly not a shrink but then you throw in a thirty thousand dollar wine bill a month then prescription drugs take a listen to our cut 11 this is depth on the stand then i saw a doctor and and the only pain medication that she recommended and prescribed to me was roxy colon and there was a part of me that was a little bit worried it just in a sense that I know, I've witnessed friends and people over the years who have had problems with heroin, you know, and I didn't want to get bit by that snake. And I started taking the Roxy's and I was bit by the snake.

Well, that's some powerful testimony. And there's more. Take a listen to Depp himself on the stand, our cut 12. And then before you know it, that monkey is on your back to stay. And it's not like you take those pills to get high. You take them to once once the addiction has grabbed hold of you you you're not taking those pills to get high you're you're taking those pills to get well or to get better because if you're without the pill your body will start to go into various you you withdrawals and um so i was i was on the roxy roxies for a number of years, four or five years, I think, maybe more.

I don't know. To Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics and death investigator, explain. Yeah, this is a form of opioid, Nancy, and it's generally administered for pain relief. And so they're highly addictive. You become dependent upon them. Of course, individuals that mix this with alcohol, there's a certain level of toxicity that, you know, your body kind of warms up to. You develop a tolerance for it. But, you know, back to one statement that he made, you know, reflectively, you know, he kind of paused.

Did you hear him on stand? Kind of paused when he was talking about friends. And, you know, the first person that popped in mind for me was River Phoenix. You know, he owned the Viper Room where River OD'd, you know, essentially died out on the street in that filthy sidewalk, you know, out front of the place. If you've ever been by it, I think they're tearing it down right now, interestingly enough, at this moment in time. And, you know, I'm sure he's reflecting on that, you know, and he's seen a lot of friends, I'm sure, that have burned out, particularly on prescription meds like this. And in River's case, I think it was a speedball that got him,

which was, I think it's a mixture of cocaine and heroin. You know, no situation improves when drugs or alcohol are introduced. Do you, Dr. Charles Heller, forensic psychologist specializing in domestic violence, do you find that to be true? Nothing is going to get better if you add in alcohol or drugs. Well, that's true. Now, this reminds me of the Michael Jackson scenario. Depp actually had his own personal physician travel with him and a nurse to help him manage this addiction and to perhaps withdraw from the drugs.

Can you imagine? We're talking about $20,000 a month in wine. How much did he pay his physician and the nurse to travel with him to Australia and all over the world? You're right about Jackson. I mean, the whole addiction completely takes over, but there is some good news in this scenario. Take a listen to Depp on the stand in the last hours, Hour Cut 13. After you detox from the opiates, have you ever taken any opiates

ever again? No, I can't. That's a... No. Once you've been bit, you'll be bit again. So, no, I, with any, I mean, even with my finger, I think that it was like Motrin 800, you know, but no opiates. No, I have not taken an opiate since, and I won't unless I plan on going through the hell of the pure horror of detoxing, of coming off those drugs. And when he's saying finger, there's a point where his finger was severed and he would not take opiates after having beat them once.

Okay, this suit is for a huge amount of money, millions and millions of dollars, but also for the reputation of two Hollywood stars that are set to lose everything depending on the evidence in this case. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye. This is an I Heart podcast.