Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - JonBenet Dad Pushes For More DNA Testing in Daughter's Murder

Episode Date: May 5, 2022

JonBenet Ramsey, 6, was reported missing by her mother the day after Christmas 1996. Patsy Ramsey reported finding a ransom note that demanded more than $118,000. John Ramsey discovered the girl’s body the same day in the basement of the family’s home in Boulder, Colorado. Investigators determined that JonBenet was strangled and had an 8.5-inch fracture to her skull. No one has been charged in connection with the killing. John Ramsey spoke at the CrimeCon 2022 convention in Las Vegas, where he called for an independent agency to test DNA from his daughter JonBenét Ramsey’s case. Ramsey said he wanted the independent agency to conduct the DNA analysis instead of the Boulder Police Department, whom Ramsey says botched the investigation. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney, Fulton County, Georgia, Defense Attorney, Cohen, Cooper, Estep, & Allen, LLC, www.ccealaw.com Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA www.angelaarnoldmd.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital  Greg Smith - Special Deputy Sheriff, Johnson County Sheriff's Office (Kansas),  Executive Director of the Kelsey Smith Foundation, www.kelseysarmy.com  Dr. Michelle DuPre - Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department, Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide", Forensic Consultant DMichelleDupreMD.com  Carol McKinley - Reporter, The Colorado Gazette, DenverGazette.com, Twitter: @CarolAMcKinley  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. John Bonet Ramsey, a case that has stuck in the craw of the country since she went missing and was found dead in the basement of her own home. The fact that it was Christmas Eve made the disaster even worse for so many. But now, another twist in the tale of the unsolved case of JonBenet Ramsey. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111.

First of all, take a listen to Hour Cut 1. 911 emergency. 911. Police. What's going on? On 515th Street. What's going on there, ma'am? We are kidnapping.

All right, please explain to me what's going on, okay? There's a note left and our daughter is gone. A note was left and your daughter is gone? How old is your daughter? Six years old. She's gone. Six years old. How long ago was this?

I don't know. I just found the note. And my daughter is gone. Does it say who took her? What? Does it say who took her? I don't know, I just found the note. Oh my god, is it saying the same thing? What? Is it saying the same thing? I don't know, there's a ransom note here. It's a ransom note?

It says S-B-T-C. Victory. Please. Okay, what's your name? I'm Kathy Ramsey, I'm the lover. Oh my God. Please. Okay, I'm sending an office number, okay? Please.

Do you know how long she's been gone? No, I don't. Please, we just got out. Is she right here? Oh my God, please. Okay, well- Is this her, honey? I am, honey.

Please. Take a deep breath in the middle, please. Please, hurry, hurry, hurry. Patsy? Patsy? Patsy? Patsy? You just heard a 911 call that has been played over and over again. Take a deep breath. Please hurry, hurry. Patsy, Patsy, Patsy, Patsy.

You just heard a 911 call that has been played over and over and over and analyzed twice the times it's been played. You are hearing the mother of JonBenet Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey, calling 911. The night her daughter seemingly disappears. And to hear her on 911, you would have no idea that her daughter is actually dead in a staged scene in the basement. Take a listen to more. This is Phil Keating, KUSA. on her cause of death, only saying that she wasn't shot or stabbed. They are investigating her death as a homicide. So far, no arrests have been made. This case started as a kidnapping.

Police were called here to the scene at about 6 a.m. the morning after Christmas. Someone inside this house had made a 911 call saying that little Jon Vanay had been kidnapped. Well when police got here, they went inside the house and a short time later, they found the little girl's body. The parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, were home at the time, but detectives say the parents are not suspects. The father is the president of Access Graphics located on Boulder's Pearl Street Mall. The couple does have another child, a son around 10 years old. That son now grown and having survived a battle of his own, Burke Ramsey accused by many in the press as killing his sister. It never made sense to me. If you even look at statistics, that is

highly, highly rare. Again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now and yet another bizarre twist in the case. With me, high-profile lawyer joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Daryl Cohen. Also with me, renowned psychiatrist, Dr. Angela Arnold at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Special Deputy Sheriff, Johnson County, Greg Smith, joining us from Kansas. Forensic pathologist, medical examiner, detective, and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, and also Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide, Dr. Michelle Dupree. But first, to Carol McKinley joining us.

She's joining us with the Colorado Gazette and the DenverGazette.com. Carol, in the last hours, a stunning proposition has been made by JonBenet's dad. Explain. Well, I think he went on CrimeCon 2022 up in Las Vegas over the weekend and called for the case to be taken out of the hands of the Boulder Police. Well, it's been 25 years, Nancy. I think what you really need to do is get beyond the rhetoric from all sides. You've got John Ramsey saying to take the case out of the Boulder Police's hands. You've got the Boulder Police saying, hey, we're doing fine.

In fact, we just met with federal, state, and local experts to go over the DNA in March. And then you've got the governor saying, hey, you know, we'd be happy to see a petition. John Ramsey's got a petition out now to the governor. How much does the petition mean? I mean, really, the case is still in the hands of the Boulder police. It's not going to go out of their hands despite the petition. I think the governor, you have to understand Governor Polis here. He doesn't shut down anybody.

That's his reputation. So what you need to do. I don't really know if I agree that John Ramsey should be, quote, shut down. I mean, she was murdered back in 19... Not John Ramsey. I'm just talking about the petition. Yeah, I'm talking about the petition or Ramsey. Because the petition,

you know, let's talk about the petition. Take a listen to Hour Cut 8. This is Jomini's father, John Ramsey, at CrimeCon. Listen to our friends at Fox. It's a petition to hopefully get the state of Colorado to intervene and have the items from the crime scene that should be tested for DNA that haven't been tested. And that's what we're hoping for.

And it's going to take a lot of help to get that moving. But, you know, government's a very reactive government, and we're talking about politicians, and we want them to do the right thing. And if they know there's enough people behind it asking them to do the right thing, they'll do it. That's what we're hoping for. I don't know about you, Daryl Cohen, but I don't like it when the state, the district attorney's office, has to be petitioned to test crime scene evidence for DNA. Why is John Ramsey having to go through all this to get items tested? And not only that, he's offered to pay for the testing himself. Nancy.

Something is way wrong. Nancy, nothing makes sense. What? This should have happened 25 years ago. DNA, forensic, everything should have been done by the Boulder police, but it obviously wasn't. And we've been through this forever. And John and Patsy Ramsey, who's now deceased, went through hell apparently because their daughter was murdered.

And it wasn't the investigation was not done properly. It wasn't done completely as it should have been done. Well, right at the bat, you never on day one, an hour after you find the dead body of a little girl in the home where the parents and the little brother were the only ones there that night, you don't just jump up and say, oh, they're not suspects. You do an investigation first. And then if they're ruled out, fine. But the crime scene was not cordoned off. Witnesses were not separated. I mean, I don't know how you can trust any DNA because the crime scene, if this ever does go to trial, was highly contaminated. Take a listen to more. This is KUSA. We talked about what needs to be done. And we said, well, there's some big things that need

to be done and some not so big things. One of the manageable tasks that ought to be done is that police, somehow we've got to force the police or take it away from them, the ability to go ahead and test some of the crime scene evidence that was never tested for DNA. And why that's never been done and won't be done by the police, it baffles me.

But so they said let's let's get people behind it we'll petition the governor of colorado to make this happen either take the the the uh case away from the police which i would love it'll never be solved if it stays in the Boulder police hands, or at least get the crime scene material tested for DNA samples. The technology has advanced so far in the DNA world from, you know, 20 years ago. And to just not do that is, it baffles me. And, you know, we're not asking to be forgiven or apologized to. Just test the DNA. Let's solve this crime. And the police won't do it.

And so we're petitioning the governor. And a lot of people have gotten behind it to say, this is crazy. Make it happen. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The crime scene was not cordoned off. Witnesses were not separated. Now, I don't know that her body or items right around her body were contaminated, but I do know the entrance, the area was contaminated. And I find it really odd. What about it, Greg Smith, a special deputy sheriff joining us out of Kansas, that John Ramsey is having to offer to pay for the testing. Oh, one more thing. Daryl Cohen, I disagree with you in one sense.

Yes, DNA testing should have been done a long time ago on every item in the home that was around the crime scene or connected to the crime scene, but DNA testing has vastly progressed since 1996. So even if something was or was not tested at the time, it should be retested or tested for the first time with new technology. Greg, have you ever seen a parent have to pay for DNA testing? Why am I paying taxes if I got to pay for DNA testing? Why am I paying taxes if I got to pay for DNA testing? Yeah, I have seen parents offer to pay for various things in various cases

when they feel that the investigation isn't progressing fast enough, and certainly this investigation hasn't progressed. I do agree with your statement. DNA testing has changed drastically since the days of this case. And what was possible then and what is possible now are light years apart. So everything that they have, everything that was collected should be tested again. Take a listen to John Ramsey himself. And as you know, John Ramsey was under suspicion.

And I find it highly probative. I'm going to circle back to you, Dr. Angie, that he is coming forward saying test these items for DNA. This is KUSA. I think the Boulder police decided on day one that it was the parents that did this horrible thing and have not been confused by facts or evidence on that conclusion. And the same people that concluded that on day one are still there. And either they don't want to be embarrassed if the answer isn't what they decided 25 years ago, or they're just totally incompetent. I don't know.

I really don't. It's baffling to me that a police department would be so ignorant of the facts and dismissive of the facts and, in fact, misrepresent the facts publicly. It's crazy. Hey, Dr. Michelle Dupree, as I recall, JonBenet Ramsey still had a hymen. Her hymen was intact. Now, there was some evidence that she may have been molested, but her hymen was intact. And I remember at the time saying, in my mind, that may very well rule out John Ramsey, because if a grown male had been molesting her, I don't think her hymen would have

still been intact. What do you think about that, Dr. Michelle? Nancy, that's an excellent point. The problem is that we do think that just because the hymen is intact, there was no molestation, but that is not necessarily true. Even for a man, the hymen is often very stretchable, and it may not break on the first attempt. So that doesn't necessarily rule out John Ramsey, but I agree with you. But John Bonnet was six years old.

Right. If John Ramsey had been molesting her, I think he would have had more than one opportunity to do that. Right. So, I mean, I know what you're saying technically is true, that the first time a child is penetrated in that way may not break the hymen, but over the course of six years. I mean, can we just get realistic?

I mean, little green men may have come down from Mars and done it, Dr. Dupree, but I don't think that's what happened. And what I'm saying is if a grown man had been molesting a six-year-old child, a girl, you would assume most likely her hymen would no longer be intact. Would you agree with that statement? I do agree with that statement. Dear Lord in heaven, listen, I'm a JD, not a DDS. I don't know how to pull a tooth. So you got to go with it a little bit. So you're saying that typically speaking her hymen would have been intact. Yes? No?

Yes, probably. I'll go with probably. I'm going to go with probably. What I was going to say earlier is that the fact that he is coming forward and asking for DNA testing

in my mind is to his credit. Because when you've got a perp, they don't usually go on national TV and demand more investigation and more testing. They usually hide out and don't say anything. Think about Scott Peterson. And I've said from the get-go that it's statistically virtually impossible that Burt Ramsey, the brother of John Bonnet, did this. I mean, if you look at the two of them growing up, Burke is about this big around. His little arms and legs at the time she was killed look like little sticks. He was pale and frail. She was the firecracker. She was the one that was so robust and had all the energy. No, I do never, I've never thought that Burke Ramsey killed his sister. And because her hymen was intact, it made me think

that her father did not kill her. I don't know him and I don't know Burke, but I'm just looking at it analytically. So in my mind, at the beginning, those two were somewhat cleared. It's not final, but that was my gut impression at the beginning. I want you to hear more in our Cut 9 of John Ramsey speaking, where I just came

from, CrimeCon. Listen to our Cut 9. It's a cold case. They don't call it a cold case, but for all intents and nine. It's a cold case. They don't call it a cold case, but for all intents and purposes, it's a cold case. Why they won't test the DNA sample, the samples that should be tested for DNA, I don't know. It's a bad thing. If you rob a bank, you'll have the whole federal bureaucracy of crime after you. If you murder a child in Mayberry, remember the old Barney Fife, Andy Griffith show? If you murder a child in Mayberry, it's up to Barney.

And if Barney doesn't ask for help, it cannot come in. We have 18,000 police jurisdictions in this country. Each one's a little kingdom. They have full authority on the crimes that are committed in their territory other than bank robbers and a few other things. But why we don't make, as a society, the murder of a child be a criminal offense at the highest level and bring all of our resources to bear on that is beyond me. You're hearing John Ramsey straight back out to Carol McKinley, a reporter with the Colorado Gazette and the DenverGazette.com. Carol,

what do you make of it? I mean, nobody's going to like being compared to Barney Fife. Well, what I was going to say a little earlier is the police said in their press release, and I've talked to a couple of sources, that there's really no reason to take the case out of their hands because they're on top of the DNA situation. You know, they came out with a really rare press release. They don't normally respond to anything, including John Ramsey, but this time they decided to. They said the last time they met was federal, state, and local authorities in March 2022. So a month ago, they met and went state and local authorities in march 2022 so a month ago they met and went over this dna and what they say is that they have been looking at the latest technology including genealogical dna to see if there might be a match so what you do is you meet with all

you said they had a meeting about it yes Yes. They had a meeting. Have they tested the items? Have the items been tested? Well, there is no DNA. The DNA we're talking about, just to remind people, is there was DNA found in blood in her underwear that had several unknown profiles in it that was similar to DNA that was found on the waistband of the old weird boy's long johns she was found in that were urine stained. So it's similar, but it's never matched anything in CODIS. So what John Ramsey and what John Andrew Ramsey are asking is please check that DNA with the garrote, with the paintbrush, with the thing she was wearing, and see if there's a match, or is this just errant DNA? And if there is a similar profile anywhere, even if it's

genealogical, let's look into it. Well, the police say they are, so why are you calling for this? They're saying, stop calling to take this case out of our hands. We've got this. That's what they're saying. Let me just ask this, and this is a yes, no. Okay. Have police tested the items Ramsey is referring to? About six years ago, the district attorney at the time, Stan Garnett, did send a bunch of items into the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. He sent the garrotte in, I believe. So all the items that Ramsey's talking about have already been tested.

Some of them have. All the items. Some of them have, but it's really unclear which ones are left untested. So then the answer would be no. That's what I'm saying. It's unclear right now which items have been tested, but I know the garrotte was sent in, and that was important. I believe the flashlight might have been sent in. The cord that was around her neck and around her wrist were sent in.

And I think if a match had been found, we would know about it by now. That was six years ago. But John Ramsey is saying there are other items that they should test as well. And I don't know what they've tested since then. And I think also the Ramsey family wants to see someone else get involved, like an outside lab, like maybe even the FBI in a private lab. I'm going to digest what you just said. It's a lot. Everybody, Carol McKinley joining me from the Colorado Gazette.

What I'm hearing, and I'll boil it down, is all the items have not been tested. And the ones that were tested. Right, but I don't think we know that. I just asked you these questions and you gave me an answer. And you said you don't think all the items he's asking about were tested. You told me the cord, the garrotte, the flashlight you think were tested, but Ramsey's asking for a lot of other tests. And let me ask you to Dr. Michelle Dupree, there have been a lot of advances in DNA in the last six years. I doubt very seriously that some of the new technology has been used.

Now, also, we've got the genetic genealogy aspect. That wasn't being used six years ago. So that's a whole other avenue. Absolutely, Nancy. And that is one thing that I think definitely should be tried. And, you know, in medicine, we always value a second opinion. I know I'm a former law enforcement officer and I understand jurisdictional issues, but, you know, why such resistance? I mean, you know, they're a small department. Let's get somebody in there with new technology,

with some new ideas, you know. That's what cold case files do. They bring in additional people with expertise, not specifically in that department. Take a listen. This is Jomini's father, John Ramsey, at CrimeCon. Listen to our friends at Fox. They decided immediately that it must be the parents because they were in the house. It's always the parents. Well, that's not a good statistic. Statistically, yeah, 60% of the time it's a caregiver or a close relative. It's hardly ever a case where there's no history. If there's a murder of a child and it's a caregiver, first of all, it's not probably a blood relative.

It's a stepfather, stepmother. And there's a long history leading up to that. The neighbors know there's a problem in the family. The police have been called before. The schools know there's a problem in the family. If that doesn't exist, it's almost unheard of that a normal family would wake up and murder their child and go back to normal. It's just, it's absurd. And yet to say that well, it must have been the family because it's always the family.

You've got to dissect that a little further for that to have any meaning. You know, I want to take a look at John Ramsey. Look, I don't know him. I don't know Burke. I didn't know Patsy. Carol McKinley, isn't it true that at a certain point the Ramse the weekend after JonBenet's body was found. They did refuse at the beginning, but about a year and a half after she was found, you know, murdered, he and Patsy Ramsey took a polygraph test. But they took three. And you know, Nancy, as well as I do, you can't shop around for polygraph tests to find someone who's going to tell you that what you say you know that that you're not lying they took three tests the first two were quote inconclusive so yes they did take polygraph tests the third um i think it was ed gelb out of

california came back um conclusive that they were telling truth. And there was a big old huge to do about it in Atlanta. I remember they called a whole bunch of reporters. Everybody was there and they announced that they had passed their polygraph. Were those with the last poly conducted by a polygrapher that was handpicked by the Ramseys? Yes. Ed Gelb. Yeah. okay. I want to ask you, Dr. Angela Arnold, what you make of John Ramsey speaking out publicly at CrimeCon.

It just happened. Asking that this case be taken away from local cops and that the items from the scene be DNA tested by another agency, retested or tested for the first time by another agency with new DNA technology and that he will pay for it. Nancy, I agree with what you said about him doing this. If he's willing to do this, it shows his lack of guilt. He wants to find out once and for all who murdered his little girl when she was six years old.

The fact that he's paying for it also shows his willingness to me to make this happen. He doesn't want any roadblocks in the way of this happening. And I mean, Nancy, I would do it. Wouldn't you? I would want to do everything I could to find out who my little girl's killer was. And also to clear my own name. I think there's part of that in here too, to clear his family's name, don't you? Now, there was a point, Carol McKinley joining me, who knows the case like the back of her hand, joining me from the Colorado Gazette and the DenverGazette.com on Twitter. She's at Carol A.M., Carol A.M.C. Kinley, Carol A. McKinley.

Carol, was there a point where a grand jury indicted the Ramseys? They did. That information, even though that grand jury was way, way hush-hush, a reporter filed to get the charges released, and they were indicted. John and Patsy were indicted for a form of child abuse resulting in death, almost a negligence charge. But the district attorney at the time, Alex Hunter, who was the original district attorney on the case, we've been through four, but the original guy decided not to pursue those charges. Daryl Cohen, they were not indicted on murder. It seems to me they were indicted on child abuse that allowed a murder to happen.

I'm not quite sure what the grand jury was thinking. What do you make of that? I guess it would be a type of felony murder. Well, Nancy, I see that Patsy Ramsey and perhaps John did abuse that poor child. I see that she was in beauty. How can you see that from 3000 miles away? I'm curious. Because I see it in my mind in the same way. Oh, boy.

We're in trouble now. Well, he moved around the corner from where I was living. And that's another story. Oh, at the time of the murder? No, after that murder. Are you saying they abused her by putting her in the beauty pageants? Not by just putting her in the beauty pageants, but by making her made up and acting the way she does.

And in my view, and others would obviously disagree, that is absolute child abuse. Well, you know what? in my view, and others would obviously disagree, that is absolute child abuse. Well, you know what? The day that Daryl Cohen, no offense, becomes our moral compass, we're in the crapper. I'm not a moral compass. I would not do that with my daughter

because she is so, so shy. But I don't think that's going to rise to child abuse. I was actually asking you a legal question, Darrell Covey, a legal question about the indictment of the grand jury many years ago of John and Patsy Ramsey. And it seems to be based on what Carol is telling me that it was a charge similar to neglect or creating a circumstance where someone could kill her. You know, like leaving a child alone in the parking lot in the car, and then they get kidnapped.

The parents didn't do it, but they created a circumstance. That's the way I understand that indictment. I am not as familiar with that indictment as I would like to be. But when you think about it, it's Christmas Day, it's Christmas night, there are people staying in the house. And how in the world would she be taken from her bedroom or wherever she was and found deceased on the bottom floor? How in the world would mom call without looking to see that she was kidnapped? And then the police arrived and find her deceased. They said she wasn't shot.

They said she wasn't stabbed. What does that tell you? She was strangled. They stopped her. She was strangled. Or they put a pillow over her face. She also had a horrible blow to the head. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We have one of the highest child murder rates of any industrialized country in the world. We should be ashamed of that. What are we going to do about it?

We live in a very small town now. There are seven police officers. They had a very tragic thing happen a few months ago. They asked for help. Come help us. We need help. We know we can't solve this on our own. They did the right thing. Boulder did not. That's the one thing I'll fault them for. They did not accept help from people that really knew what they were doing and could have helped. As a society, the murder of a child, a federal offense, so that all the resources of the federal government, the FBI, etc. could come in automatically for example the FBI has a immediate response to a

child abduction unit that's great we ought to do the same thing for the child guys John Ramsey the father of John Bonnet Ramsey is coming forward stepping into the spotlight and demanding the case be removed from Boulder Cops and that DNA testing be done or redone on all the items involved. What does it mean? Take a listen to our cut 12. This is John Ramsey speaking. You know, they, I guess, sadly made up their mind, you know, early, early on.

And don't confuse them with facts. They know the answer. And that's dangerous for society. Government moves based on public pressure. They're reactionary. You know, our government tends not to do things in anticipation of something. If enough public pressure is brought on the governor, the state of Colorado, to do the right thing, they will do the right thing. That's what

we're hoping and I think that's what this petition can accomplish. We can't do it on our own. We're not enough. There's not enough muscle behind us. But people, large numbers of people can make things happen. Carol McKinley joining us from DenverGazette.com. Carol, bottom line, do you think John Ramsey's demand is going to happen? Wow, what a great question. This case has gone through so many topsy-turvy tumbles. You know, I'm 50-50.

I'd like to see it happen, but the Boulder police are saying it's not going to. You're not going to get it. We're already doing the job that we are supposed to be doing. We've already met with the feds. You can't take it out of our hands. Met with the feds. They need to do more than meet with the feds. They need the feds to take over the case. And I agree with Carol. I think it's 50-50 whether the case is taken on by the feds and whether there will ever be new DNA testing. Well, the governor is

coming out and saying he'll take a look at this. You know, there is a petition. I'm looking at it right now. We've got about 5,900 signatures on that petition. I talked with the governor's spokesman yesterday, and he said the petition is still online, that they have yet to send it to the governor, but Jared Polis is from Boulder. He grew up there. He knows about, you know, this case from a personal perspective, and he says he wants to find the killer. Now, we've had many governors since JonBenet Ramsey died, one of whom told the Ramseys to come out from behind their lawyers

and come clean. So lots of different reactions from different governors in Colorado. Who knows whether this is going to mean anything to the investigation. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.