Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - JORAN VAN DER SLOOT CONFESSION: I BLUDGEONED NATALEE HOLLOWAY DEAD WITH A CINDERBLOCK

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

More details coming out from Joran van der Sloot's courthouse admission. In the Dutch national's interview with his attorney, van der Sloot admitted that he killed Natalee Holloway after she rejected his sexual advances. After kicking her in the face, van der Sloot used a cinderblock to bash her skull. He said he then dragged her body to the waterline. When he was about knees deep in the waves, he pushed her off into the sea.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Dale Carson– High-profile Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent & Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County); Author: “Arrest-Proof Yourself; Twitter: @DaleCarsonLaw Caryn L. Stark – Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych/FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice Sheryl McCollum– Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Former Georgia State Director with Mothers Against Drunk Drivers (MADD); Host of new podcast: “Zone 7;” Twitter: @ColdCaseTips  Irv Brandt – Senior Inspector, US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch; Chief Inspector, DOJ Office of International Affairs, US Embassy Kingston, Jamaica; Author: “SOLO SHOT: CURSE OF THE BLUE STONE” – AVAILABLE ON AMAZON IN JANUARY; ALSO “FLYING SOLO: Top of the World;” Twitter: @JackSoloAuthor Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter: @JoScottForensic Ashe Short - Senior Editor for The Daily Wire; Twitter @AsheSchow  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Finally, Jorn Vandersloot, the man, as many of us have been saying for years, who murdered American beauty, straight-A student bound for pre-med school, who murdered her, is finally ensnared in an American courtroom. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111.

First of all, I want you to hear, as I did in court, Natalie's mother, Beth Holloway, we did not know what was going to happen. The courtroom was packed. The proceedings are supposed to start at 930 sharp on the eighth floor in the Hugo Black federal courthouse. We had been waiting, I had been waiting a couple of hours to make sure I could get into the courtroom and when I left to drive to Birmingham, it was pitch dark, and all I could think about was Beth Holloway. And what if I, God forbid, would ever have to be in her shoes, seeking justice for my child that was murdered.

The courtroom was packed. Deputies were trolling up and down as they should have been, the aisles to make sure that there were no weapons, that nobody had their cell phone out, that everyone was following the rules. There were armed guards at every door and every possible exit for you on Vander Sloot. Beth, Natalie's mother, walked in the courtroom and literally, it was like the bride, they come down the aisle, everything gets quiet and people turn. She came in back straight as an arrow and took to her seat.

Jorn Vandersloot came in looking much worse for the wear. He looked like an old man, flabby and dissipated. He looked like a bum. They'd been sleeping on a bench, a park bench. I looked at him and I thought, do you have any idea the wake of pain you have left behind you? How many people's lives you have twisted up and contorted. Apparently, he has no idea. He just sat there like nothing was wrong.

And then Beth spoke. I want you to listen to something she had to say after. Listen. I don't really look at it as saying goodbye to Natalie because we wake up every morning and our and the hope that filled her her life and heart feels ours today so we feel like we carry Natalie with us even forward now and that's a good that's a that's a very good feeling it like I said it feels victorious and more you're on vanderslow's confession means we have finally reached the end of our never-ending nightmare. And for me, reaching the end of the nightmare, being over is better than closure. It's been 18 years since Natalie disappeared and Natalie would be 36 years old today. I still miss her every day. It's been a

very long and painful journey, but we finally got the answers we've been searching for for all these years. We finally, today, we got justice for Natalie. Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but first to my longtime friend and colleague, forensic expert Cheryl McCollum, founder, director of the Cold Case Research Institute and star of the hit podcast Zone 7. Cheryl, she has much bravado as she's speaking right after we all got out of court yesterday. But in the courtroom, Cheryl, when she stood up, you were right there beside me. That's when I broke down and started crying. When she, her voice cracked and she said, in my mind, in my heart, Natalie will be forever young, forever 18,

forever with the world before her. Forever bright and beautiful. That's how she will live in my heart. And just the diametrically opposed factions in the courtroom. With Beth and Natalie's dad on one side with the state. And Vander Sloot and his fleet of attorneys on the other side I will never forget when she said that so with all of her bravado all of her bravery all for valor she is hurting she is hurting it I heard she promised she would be right back in the classroom today, going right back to work.

And I didn't realize, Cheryl, that by going to Aruba and staying for so long trying to find Natalie, she lost her job. She lost her teaching credentials. She had to come back ultimately and go back to school and start all over from scratch. She lost her tenure. She lost everything looking for Natalie. She was fighting more than one battle. She had to fight to get her livelihood back. She had to fight for justice for her child. But I'm with you. What we saw yesterday in that courtroom was nothing shy of a transformation. She was fearless. She was laser focused on him.

She spoke directly to him twice. And, you know, when she finally, you know, she turned and she looked at her son, Matt, and she said, Matt, we did it because, you know, he was younger than Natalie and this has been his whole adult life is fighting for justice. And they did that yesterday. If it were not for Beth Holloway, that would have never happened. You know what? You just gave me a flash because there's nothing like this brother sister love John David is a big teddy bear my big boy he's six five now and he's just 15 the only two times he has ever pushed somebody at school was when they said something about a sister Lucy and I think one was just trying to get a date, but yeah, that didn't work out. And the only time ever my daughter has ever had an act of violence that I

know of anyway, somebody made fun of John Davis. She went up to them in the hallway with her big, thick three ring binder notebook and walked him on the forehead. My little Lucy, she probably weighs 90 pounds, just attacked a big guy and beat him in the head because he made fun of John David. What I'm saying is you don't really hear a lot about Natalie's brother, but he was front and center yesterday, and I cannot imagine what his life has been like. We think of Beth so much, but her heart, while it's hurting, what about Natalie's brother? More from, we could go on, but I want you to hear more from Beth Holloway. Today, I can tell you with certainty that after 18 years, Natalie's case, it's solved.

As far as I'm concerned, it's over. It's over. Yvonne Vandersloot is no longer the suspect in my daughter's murder. He is the killer. And we hear her talk about the case and whether she's satisfied with Yvonne Vandersloot's story about how Natalie died are you satisfied because I'm not some of it doesn't fit together for me but we'll get to it listen to Beth in the course of his felony prosecution here for extortion and wire fraud indictment he gave a proffer in which he finally confessed that he

killed Natalie he described when and how he killed her. He said that after killing her on the beach in Aruba, he put her into the water, and that was the last that he ever saw her. That was all verified by a comprehensive and conductive conclusive polygraph test. Even with this confession, though, he can't be tried here for Natalie's murder,

but I'm satisfied knowing that he did it. He did it alone and he disposed of her alone. I won't give you the details of his brutal confession. Those will be forthcoming when the proffer is made public. You will also have details of the plea agreement which was reached, his sentence of the extortion, and the wire fraud will run concurrently with a sentence in Peru for killing Stephanie Flores. And that's fine with me. Thanks to a lot of very smart and dedicated people here, I got the answer I've been searching for for the past 18 years. You know, yesterday as

Cheryl McCollum and Joe Scott Morgan and Beth's best friend Ginger Strickland were all in front of the courthouse, we came straight down and hit the airwaves. We were wondering, I may know the U.S. law like the back of my hand, but I did not know the Aruba law. I'm now learning. I was hoping that Jorn Vandersloot's confession would lead to a murder prosecution in Aruba. It's not happening. They actually have a 12-year statute of limitations on homicide. And no jury. Who's jumping in?

This is Dale. I just, you're Dale. Perfect. Dale Carson is with me. That's just who I need. High-profile lawyer joining us out of Jacksonville. Former FBI, former cop, author of Arrest Proof Yourself. And now he's, as I said, a high-profile criminal defense attorney.

You can find him at Dale Carson Law. Go ahead, Dale, jump in. It's not going to happen. Right. No, it's not going to happen. And there's no jury down there. And his father, of course, was a judge in Aruba down in the ABCs. So, you know, there are connections there that really would argue against any additional prosecution.

Of course, he's got to go back to Venezuela and serve the rest of his term down there. It's Peru. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The thing is, Del Carson, jumping off what you just said, not only is the statute of limitations 12 years for homicide, and it's been over 12 years. They would not prosecute this case if I handed it to them on a silver platter with all the evidence. If it was on top of the Christmas tree, they would not prosecute it. They were never going to prosecute Yoram Vandersloot.

I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because of the father who was a judge. Maybe it's because how awful it is for tourism. They never lifted a finger to help Beth when she was there desperately trying to find her daughter. And we, Cheryl and Ginger and Beth and I, recently went back to Aruba to try to uncover some clues we had heard about. We had not had our feet on the ground in the central area of Aruba downtown 20 minutes before the Aruba police tried

to arrest Beth and me. So no way in H-E-double-L are they going to prosecute him. They wanted to prosecute Beth and me. I mean, Cheryl, right? That absolutely happened. And you made the greatest point ever. You said in 17 minutes, y'all have tried to arrest me and Beth Holloway and y'all have not done anything to arrest him for the murder of her child in 17 years. That did not get me very far. But that is, in fact, what I said. And it is and was true. We're talking about a proffer. A proffer is something you offer the court. It's not always heard by a jury. The proffer in this case is Jorn Vandersloot's confession.

And again, did he kill Matt? Did he murder Natalie? Yes, he murdered Natalie Holloway. I'm saying that since the evidence became apparent the week that she went missing. But we learned so many more of the details. Also, I'm not buying his story hook, line and sinker. See if you agree. Listen. Do Deepak and Satish get out, come with you? What happens to them? The park and Satish leave. They leave. They go back to their home.

I assume they go back to their home. They get in their car and they leave. I'm actually with Natalie walking along the beach. I find a space before we get to the Marriott Hotel where I lay her down. We lay down together in the sand, and we start kissing each other. I get her to kiss me again. We start kissing each other. And I start fielding her up again and she tells me no. And according to VanderSloot, the double killer, yes, he also killed a young girl in much the same scenario,

Stephanie Tassiana Flores. He killed Flores in Peru. That's why he's in jail over there. But this is where the trouble starts right there. She said no. Listen. She tells me she doesn't want me to feel her up. I insist. I keep feeling her up either way. And she knees me. She ends up kneeing me in the crotch.

When she knees me in the crotch, I get up on the beach and I kick her extremely hard in the face. Yeah, she's laying down unconscious, possibly even dead, but definitely unconscious. And I see right next to her, there's a huge cinder block laying on the beach. A cinder block. Okay. With me in addition to our all-star panel, Ash Short, senior editor, The Daily Wire. And you can find Ash at thedailywire.com. Ash, thank you for being with us. And all of his many, many stories in the past, I think we counted up between eight and 10 the other day. I've never heard him mention a cinder block or beating her with a cinder block before. This is a new story. Right. Absolutely. It's a completely new story because he says exactly what he did. I mean, his other stories

include the lie he told Beth when he extorted money out of her, where he said that he was buried in the foundation of a house, a house that didn't even exist at the time that he died. I mean, they've said that they left her at the hotel and saw security guards following her. Security footage showed that was a lie. I mean, he said all of these different things. And yes, this is the first time a cinder block has been mentioned. And I'm right there with you in this, can we believe this story? Now, he said it in this proper, so he's under penalty of perjury, but this story, like many of his other stories, can't be corroborated. I mean, Beth mentioned polygraph, but I mean, you and I both know polygraph, they're inadmissible, they're not really reliable. And so unless at some point back in 2005,

a bloody cinder block was found and police have that, there's no way to corroborate this. And with the 12-year statute of limitations, he won't face anything. It's convenient that he says it after the statute of limitations has gone. And it's just there's no way to prove this. So, I mean, we can accept this. We all knew that he did this from the beginning because of the changing stories, because of the lies, because he was the last person to see her. But at this point point is this actually how it happened i mean hawkins razor would kind of say yes right but is it actually true did anyone else help him did the calpo brothers help him at all did his father get involved right these are

things that i still have questions about i I agree with you, Ash Short. That and so many other things. The only thing we can really agree on and really know for sure is that he killed her. The rest is a little fuzzy. I want to hear more about that cinder block. Listen. When you say cinder block, looking at the walls of this place, is it like those? Exact same cinder blocks.

I see a huge cinder block laying on the on the beach i take this and uh yeah i i smash her head in with it completely yeah her face basically you know collapses in even though it's dark I can see her face is collapsed in afterwards I don't exactly know what you know I'm scared I don't know what to do so what does he do with Natalie's body, according to him? And you can take that with a box of salt. Listen. And I decide to take her and to put her into the ocean. So I grab her and I half pool and half walk with her into the ocean. I push her off.

I walk up to about my knees into the ocean, and I push her off into the sea. And, yeah, after that, I get out. I walk home. I don't believe that. With me is Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University. He is the author of Blood Beneath My Feet. More important, he is a death investigator. He has evaluated over 1,000 death scenes.

And he's a star of a hit podcast, Body Bags, with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph Scott Morgan, it doesn't make sense to me that he would pick up her body and walk out to the water, just place it in the water, and that it wouldn't wash up. Her body wouldn't wash up or be spotted the next day. I find that very difficult to believe. Every single person on this panel and I know within your audience, a good percentage have been to the beach, Nancy. We know how tide works just on the surface alone. Do you realize how far out into the surf and literally past the surf you would have to go in order to facilitate this to get a human remain out so far that

it would not come back into shore or land somewhere? Now, I know that we're talking about an island. However, that's the one thing that kind of sticks with me in this particular case. How do you facilitate getting her remains out there so that you can assure that they're not going to come back in? Birmingham yesterday, unless he got just incredibly lucky and sea life took over at that point in time in that approximate area and began to do what they do with remains when they find them. But I'm not going to say it's a one in a million shot, but I think therein lies a big question. It's a conundrum when you look at it logically. We've heard a lot about boats, how I think even he threw his dad under the bus relative to his dad helped him acquire a boat.

He's alluded to these brothers having had something to do with the boat. We know that neither he nor his dad owned a boat. And for me, it's just an odd thing. And also one other thing coincidentally is the proximity of the cinder block that he's alluded to. Now, I have seen in fishing areas where people will beach boats and they will use cinder blocks many times to facilitate the beaching of a boat to keep it secured so it's not washed back out. But I'm just saying this is kind of a random object to find there in this resort area, just lying on the surface of the beach. They want to try to keep these areas pristine and pretty so that tourists

walk about and you're telling me there's a cinder block just happened to be laying there immediately adjacent to Natalie's body. It's kind of odd. Yet we are being told everything that Jorn Vandersloot said has been verified by a comprehensive and exhaustive investigation. Take a listen to Beth Holloway speaking to that in Our Code 140. In the course of his felony prosecution, here for extortion and wire fraud indictment, he gave a proffer in which he finally confessed that he killed Natalie. He described when and how he killed her. He said that after killing her on the beach in Aruba, he put her into the water and that was the last that he ever saw her.

That was all verified by a comprehensive and conductive conclusive polygraph test. Joining us right now is a guest renowned in his field. Irv Brandt is with us, Senior Inspector, U.S. Marshal Service in the International Investigations Branch, Chief Inspector, DOJ, Office of International Affairs, author of multiple books, including Solo Shot, Curse of the Blue Stone, which was great, and Flying Solo, Top of the World, still reading it. You can find him on Twitter, at JackSolo Solo author. Irv Brandt, I'm just trying to think how this whole thing is going to play out. There were a few contrarians yesterday that suggested this was a bad deal. And Cheryl, you were there.

Joe Scott, you were at the courthouse. Cheryl, I was really impressed with the judge. As short, if you know anything differently as joining us from the Daily Wire, this judge, I thought was amazing. This was an offer from the state accepted by the defense and approved by Beth and her family. What else can be done? Because a few contrarians were complaining it was a bad deal because he will never be prosecuted for murder in Aruba because this confession cannot be used for a local prosecution. I learned that researching last night. But the reality, Irv Brandt, is that Aruba was never going to prosecute him, even if he had climbed to the top of the Holiday Inn and screamed out, I did it.

They were never going to prosecute him. They didn't care about a missing American teen girl. They just didn't care. It was very clear to me. I saw it with my own eyes. They were never going to prosecute him for murder. So confession or no confession, that's a wash to me as far as what can be done now. Aruba's been out of the picture from the get-go. Peru, the judge, Irv Brandt, and guys jump in if you remember

differently. Karen Stark, I'm going to get your opinion on this as well. The judge kept saying yesterday, Irv, she kept saying that should there be any change in your condition in Peru, in other words, the law changed like you did here. That's how Charles Manson escaped the death penalty. The law changed. If the Peruvian law changes and he gets out early, if he is paroled, if he, for whatever reason, is out of jail, he must return to the U.S. to serve the rest of this 20-year sentence. Now, I guarantee you, he's not going to book his own boat over here. He would have to be found by the U.S. Marshal Service.

That's where you come in, Irv Brandt. But what do you make of what is happening, and how is this going to play out when he gets back home to Peru? Well, Nancy, the case is now under the jurisdiction of the United States Marshal Service. The FBI maintains jurisdiction until the time of sentencing. And now that Uren has been sentenced, he's been remanded to the custody of the United States Marshal Service. He's going to be taken back to Peru by the Marshal Service or in cooperation with the FBI.

That happens quite frequently also. But he's going back to Peru to serve his sentence. And he's got that federal sentence running concurrently. So it acts as a detainer on him in any case that parole, like you said, a law change, an appeal, anything that could happen that may get him released early in Peru is going to default to the United States Marshal Service going back down there, picking him back up, bringing him back to the United States Marshal Service, going back down there, picking them back up, bringing them back to the United States, putting them in the Federal Bureau of Prisons to serve the rest of his 20-year sentence. Like we discussed previously, Aruba has no interest in him. They've never had any interest in him. They're not going to be asking for him when he's in Peru. And I'm highly skeptical that even if they did, even if they said they were going to prosecute him on something, I don't think

Peru would extradite to Aruba because there'd be a real concern of escape that Aruba authorities may release them pending trial. Oh, yeah. No way. When Peru sent it back to Aruba. I mean, if you had seen the way I mean, Cheryl, back me up on this. Or if you disagree, say so. There's no way Aruba would have ever prosecuted this, even with a confession. They turned away from the truth. I don't know why they wanted to protect him the way that they did, other than his father was a judge and it affected tourism. But there's no way, even if Peru had sent him back,

that they would have prosecuted him. In fact, they probably would have engineered a way he would probably have escaped. Well, they let him escape as far as I'm concerned after the extortion. They let him get on a plane and go to Peru. They let him leave the island. And Nancy, they did everything in their power to help cover this up. If you remember, Beth did a police report. And when she went back to sign it, they had translated it and it was in Dutch. She didn't even know what she was signing. She couldn't read it. I do remember that. And I also remember Beth telling us that when she was frantically looking for Natalie, she went and waited, I think, five hours outside the chief of police's door, his office.

He finally came out and he had been having his hair cut and eating, eating while this mom is out there waiting, I think, five hours. He's behind his office door eating and having somebody cut his hair and it his response was something like i will find her she'll turn up and that was it but nancy nancy let's talk about the proffer though in the federal system a proffer is only as good as it is truthful. What that means to me as a defense attorney is that if he hasn't told the entirety of the truth, in other words, there are lies connected with it, it can later be proved to two co-conspirators that clearly were involved and should have been charged with some sort of assisting in the homicide.

Oh, hey, I'm glad you said that. Hold on, Dale Carson. I want you to hear more of what Jorn Vandersloot said from the horse's mouth about the two co-defendants. Do you notice how in this, which I believe to be largely, let me just say, embellished to protect his father and the Calpo brothers. The father is dead. Jorn van der Sloot gave his dad a heart attack. The Calpo brothers are very much alive and could tell the truth. So he manages to clear them of any involvement. Take a listen to our cut one, two, four. This is Jorn van der Sloot in his own words. Plus, she asked to go back to her hotel,

but I was just trying to get dropped off a little bit further away from her hotel so we could walk back to her hotel and I might still get a chance to be with her. Okay. That's what I was hoping for. Okay. So what happens? Yeah, Deepak drops me off at a place a little right of the Marriott Hotel known as the Fisherman's Huts. This place is not so far from, you know, the next hotel is the Marriott and the next hotel after that is another Marriott,

which is a timeshare and then it's the Holiday Inn. But we walk along the beach. So there you see he's protecting them so they'll never go back on him and say what really happened that night regardless of hearing this and knowing this evidence about the cinder block and what was done to her daughter, Beth Holloway manages to put on a good face and stay strong, becoming somewhat of a symbol to parents all over the country whose children have been murdered. Let's now recap 136. This is Beth Holloway. It feels victorious. I feel like you finally begin to transition from the victim to

the victor and begins to make the pain and suffering feel somewhat less intense because you are here. You are at this point, the pinnacle of the journey, and you've gotten justice and you've gotten the answers you've been so desperately seeking. So it felt victorious. And more in 135. This has been the most unimaginable journey. And I know everyone has been with us on this and we are so appreciative of it. But for us to finally put this to rest and being over, as I said, it's better than closure,

because our never-ending nightmare had to end. And we are so grateful that we can say that today, that it is over. And that is getting justice for Natalie. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us is, or now psychologist, TV and radio trauma expert, consultant, Karen Stark. Karen with a C at KarenStark.com. Karen, I know Beth was being brave and she was incredibly brave in the courtroom. In fact, there was one point Cheryl tell Karen about when Beth Holloway turned around and what she said to Vander Sloot. She looked right at him and said, you don't look good in your hand.

I don't think you're going to make it. You look like hell. I don't think you're going to make it. And he did, Karen Stark. He looked so dissipated, nothing like he has ever looked in any of the videos or the photos we've seen before. This is like an old guy that has been drinking too much, having too many drugs, eating too much behind bars. We know his father, I think two children behind bars. He's gotten married, has gotten divorced for a younger woman.

Where do you meet a younger woman behind bars? Anyway, he looks nothing like he did when he murdered Natalie. When she turned around and looked at him and went, you look like hell. I don't think you're going to make it. But my question to you, Karen Stark, is it's like a performance. It's okay to keep your game face and stay strong. And it was a long, grueling day for her and a day that she's probably dreamed of for many, many years. But I find it hard to believe that at night when she puts her head on that pillow, she doesn't think about her girl.

Nancy, she will never, ever stop thinking about her girl, as she said. You know there's no closure for a crime victim. I don't know why you keep saying that, Karen Stark. Well, she needed some kind of finality. She needed this to be the end. She needed to hear him say that he killed her. Let's face it, Nancy, listen to his voice. This is a man who has no feelings. He could be reciting a book, reading a poem to us. No feelings at all. He went home. He watched TV. He watched porn. Whoa, hold on, Mustang Sally. Wait a minute.

Can you say that a little bit more slowly? Well, that's what we heard, that he went home. We heard what? We heard that he went home, that he looked at soccer scores, that he watched porn. It reminds me of when he killed Flores and he ate breakfast and took a shower. No feelings. With her dead body lying right there on the hotel room floor. Right there. Right there.

And I found it interesting. Is that ass? Jump in. Yeah. So in the courtroom yesterday, VanderSloot reportedly said that, you know, I'm not the man I was back then. And that stuck out to me because the man you were back when in 2005 when you killed

Natalie Holloway or the man you were in 2010 when you extorted her family and then murdered Flores when did you have this change and when did it happen to occur after the statute of limitations and he did in fact change why does he have feeling? And why is he only now confessing? When if he had had this change and he was a new person, why didn't he say anything then? You know what? It's really interesting. The timing as short as joining us in the Daily Wire. You're absolutely right. He has suddenly has a change of heart and actually brings up that he has now met Christ behind bars. And you know what? I'm all for that. And he can minister to other inmates behind bars for the rest of his life. But he just had to get that in. Is that you, Karen Stark? Go ahead. Yes, it is, because there's no way that he changed. It's not possible.

We are talking about somebody who was a murderer, a psychopath. He doesn't change. And I want to add something. That whole story with the cinder block, I feel like he was looking around and he saw cinder blocks. And then he said, oh, you know, that would be a good thing to put into my story. I'll mention a cinder block because we can't believe a single thing that he said. There was a moment in that courtroom that really twisted my heart when Beth was describing how Natalie will always be a lie for her, that she's frozen in time at 18 with the world before her.

Now, that was not being recorded. I can only do a secondhand version of what Beth really said. But she said something to that effect after court. Listen to Hour 138. Natalie was very bright, very smart, dedicated young lady. She was on her way to college. She was headed to medical school after that, and I have no doubt she would have made it all the way. So we love her. We miss her very much.

And we wake up every morning with thoughts of Natalie. But now we wake up knowing that we have reached justice for Natalie. She was truly the best sister I could have ever asked for. Absolutely. Gosh, I feel so bad for Matt Holloway, the brother, and all that family has been through. Irv Brandt, you're the U.S. Marshals expert. Tell me again, if his sentence is reduced for any reason in Peru, will we get him back to serve the remainder of the 20 years he just got in the Hugo Black Federal Courthouse on extortion?

Absolutely, Nancy. The Office of International Affairs and cooperating with the Peruvian government will keep track of this case. And they will be notified by Peru if for some reason his release date changes. And the United States Marshal Service would go down there, get him, bring him back to the United States, and he would be placed in a Bureau of Prisons facility to finish his sentence. He's going to do the next 20 years. This guy needs to be in Supermax or Brandt, not conjugal visits in a jug of wine over in his Peruvian penthouse in the prison. As short, I believe I heard the number 2043. Is that when he could be released? Yes, but he was sentenced to 28 years for the

murder, but he was also, I believe, given an additional 18 years because he was selling drugs in prison. I don't know if that's running concurrent. So, I mean, it could be a long time, but there is a finality to his sentence. So 2043, yes. And the thing, when I go back to him saying he's a changed man, if he hadn't been captured for Stephanie Flores' death, I mean, this guy would have been an international serial killer, right? Like, what would have stopped him? You're absolutely right. And I wonder, have there been other victims right exactly because we know okay aruba have other people gone missing what about in peru the time after he extorted natalie's mother the fbi and aruba

police like allowed him to go to columbia so is anybody missing in Colombia? You know, I mean, these other places and him saying that he's a changed person, like if he gets out, I don't see him just going and living a quiet life or anything. I mean, this is a person who at 17 years old was turned down by a woman and kicked her in the face and then his thoughts were to murder her. Well, I mean, if we need any other evidence than what Ash Short is giving us, Joe Scott Morgan, it's been in the last handful of years that he impregnated a woman from behind bars, married her, had at least one, I think two children with her, and then dumped her for a younger jail visitor. Dumped the mother of his two children for a younger woman. I mean, this guy has not changed.

No, he hasn't. And here's the thing. You know, when you compare what happened to this poor woman, Stephanie, in Peru, the brutality, you know, some people have described that scene as being a wash in blood. It's not too far removed from the trauma that he's talking about that that he inflicted upon Natalie at that moment in time. But I do have one more thought about this, Nancy, relative to this kind of serial behavior that he's engaged in. We've heard a lot about Rehoboam, GHB, date rape drug. And I really wonder, Nancy, after all these years, if he was bold enough to perpetrate this and in that environment in which he apparently just had free reign. I talked about being a spoiled brat down there, being facilitated by, he's feral is essentially what it comes down to.

I really wonder one of the profiles that was put forth and some of the things that have been suggested about him is that he would track women that he knew were leaving like the next day and the bartenders were on to it. Taxi drivers were on to it. Hotel managers perhaps were on to it. How many of these women, how many of these poor women out there did he attack on their last night in Aruba? And just out of pure shame, these women got on a plane just wanting to put that behind them. And they never spoke a word about it, Nancy.

How many other women are out there that this guy victimized? Go ahead, Dale. Joseph, that's a really excellent point, because in those areas where people go to visit, like Aruba, it's not unusual for there to be a confab of individuals who prey on those tourists. And that's something that everyone wants to suppress because it's in the better interest of these communities that live on tourism to not have that exposed at all. But it was certainly true when I was working in the Virgin Islands. And those systems were in place and had been there for quite some period of time.

And it's not unlike a school of fish. If you're around a school of bait fish, you will see in the perimeters the barracuda just mysteriously appearing and disappearing because they're waiting for our meal. And that's Vandersloot. Nancy, I got to jump in here. Go ahead, dear.

I want to remind everybody that they recovered human bones that were mixed with dog bones. And then Aruba just let that go. And they were, weren't they of a female European descent? Correct. So who was that? And how did he know they were there? Which tells me there's another victim. Exactly right. So if you look at his crimes, he gets females alone. He isolates them from their group. He gives them the GHB. He attempts sex with them. Then these two victims, Stephanie Flores and Natalie Holloway, refused him. He bludgeoned them first with a part of his body, then picked up an object in both cases on the same day, causing great bloodshed. These were

impulsive acts. And again, he beat them until they were dead. And then in one regard, he went home, watched TV, watched porn. In the other, he went and had breakfast like it was nothing. Absolutely nothing. The words from Beth Holloway will forever ring in my mind. In my mind and my heart, Natalie will be forever 18. Goodbye, friend.