Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - JORAN VAN DER SLOOT GET THE H*LL OUT OF U.S.! | The Latest On Natalee Holloway

Episode Date: November 3, 2023

Joran van der Sloot is no longer on US soil. The 36-year-old Dutch national was released from the Shelby County Jail Monday just after midnight, escorted by U.S. Marshals to the Birmingham International Airport.  The plane that was supposed to fly van der Sloot back to Peru experienced some type of mechanical issue and take off was delayed by 24 hours. However, the man who confessed to killing Alabama teen Natalee Holloway is now in Peru and officially back in the custody of Peruvian officials, to serve out the rest of his sentence for the murder of Stephanie Flores, and his concurrent sentence for extorting money from the Holloway family. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Gary Davidson – Partner, Diaz Reus International Law Firm & Alliance; Twitter: @DRT_Alliance, Instagram: diazreustarg Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; Twitter: @DrBethanyLive Sheryl McCollum– Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Former Georgia State Director with Mothers Against Drunk Drivers (MADD); Host of new podcast: “Zone 7;” Twitter: @ColdCaseTips  Irv Brandt – Senior Inspector, US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch; Chief Inspector, DOJ Office of International Affairs, US Embassy Kingston, Jamaica; Author: “SOLO SHOT: CURSE OF THE BLUE STONE” – AVAILABLE ON AMAZON IN JANUARY; ALSO “FLYING SOLO: Top of the World;” Twitter: @JackSoloAuthor  Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter: @JoScottForensic TJ Ward - Private Investigator, TJ Ward & Associates Carol Robinson - Senior Reporter for AL.com; Twitter: RobinsonCarol   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Is he finally gone? Can I quit paying for three hots and a cot for confessed double killer Jorn Vandersloot? Has he finally left U.S. soil? Is he where he's supposed to be? Behind bars under a jail in Peru? I'm not going to believe it until I see a certified photo of him behind bars because this guy has skated free so many times. Two women dead at his hands. That we know of. But we now learn authorities in Aruba seek the U.S. file on the extortion of Natalie Holloway's mother to the tune of a quarter million dollars. Why do they want the file? Do they want Jorn Vandersloot's confession that he

and he alone murdered American beauty teen girl honor student Natalie Holloway there in Aruba on her high school senior trip? Do they want that confession? If so, why? Is there any chance Aruba will mount a murder prosecution? This was so many other questions swirling. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. Why? Why am I so glad he hopefully has finally left U.S. soil? Because of this. Hey, don't you have to trust me. Let's hear it from the horse's mouth. Listen. Plus, she she has to go back to her hotel, but I was just trying to get dropped off a little bit further away from her hotel so we could walk back to her hotel and I might still get a chance to be with her. Okay. That's what I was hoping for.

Okay. So what happens? Yeah, Deepak drops me off at a place a little right of the Marriott Hotel known as the Fisherman's Hudson. I wanted a chance to be with her. Okay, that's a load of, let me see, technical legal term, BS. He wanted a chance in the darkened night to rape Natalie Holloway. Many people believe she had been slipped a roofie, GHB, gamma hydroxybutyrate, and a drink because Natalie Holloway would never have left that bar, Carlos and Charlie's,

without her friends that she went there with. But she did that night. Why? After a couple of drinks, she was completely out of it and he wanted her alone. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. Is he finally gone? Are we rid of him? With me, Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert who traveled with me to Aruba with Natalie's mother looking for more clues. Director of the Cold Case Research Institute, star of a hit new series, Zone 7 podcast,

Cheryl McCollum. He wanted to get her alone to rape her. That's what he wanted. He didn't want to be with her and find out her life story and her secret fears and thoughts and feelings. He wanted to have sex with her. A hundred percent%. He admitted to touching her, to feeling her up, to getting her into a secluded place. Why are you even saying that? That was a molestation. She was out of it. It's a sexual assault. There's no question.

Feel her up? Who even says that anymore? He did. I'm quoting him. Oh, now you're quoting Jorn Vandersloot. Okay. Cheryl's authority, Jorn Vandersloot. He didn't want to have sex with her he wanted to kill her sex is just i think he wanted to have sex with her and it didn't work the way he wanted to

and then he killed her you're hearing dr bethany marshall what is sex with an instrument of power agree listen um this place uh is not so far from you, the next hotel is the Marriott, and the next hotel after that is another Marriott, which is a timeshare, and then it's the Holiday Inn. We walk along the beach. All right. Do Deepak and Satish get out, come with you? What happens to them? Deepak and Satish get out, come with you? What happens?

Deepak and Satish leave. They leave. They go back to their home. I assume they go back to their home. They get in their car and they leave. I'm actually with Natalie walking along the beach. I find a space before we get to the Marriott Hotel. Where I lay her down, they're outside on the beach.

Natalie's completely out of it, I think, because she's been drugged. And he, quote, lays her down. Gary Davidson joining me, high profile lawyer out of Miami, partner of D.S. Ruiz International Law Firm and Alliance. Gary, why is it every time I have ever interviewed a defendant or gotten wet up on the stand of the defense attorney was that stupid. They always somehow minimize their involvement. I lay her on the ground. B.S. He knocked her down and raped her.

That is not laying her gently on the sand. I always think of it as a self-protection device that witnesses and especially perpetrators of crimes undertake because they're telling a story to an audience. And when you're telling a story to an audience, you always want to make yourself look good. It's just fundamental, and that's the reason they do it. I mean, Dr. Bethany Marshall, who was butting in earlier, but, hey, done it myself. Dr. Bethany Marshall, high-profile in earlier, but hey, done it myself.

Dr. Bethany Marshall, high-profile psychoanalyst joining us out of L.A. Dr. Bethany, I mean, if you look at the video from Carlos and Charlie's, she needed help walking. He had totally roofied her. And so there's no lying or gently on the sand for a session of lovemaking. B.S. He threw her down on the sand and raped her. Of course, this was a part of an offending pattern. He did this many, many, many times

with all these students coming for their spring breaks. He was predating upon her. He roofied her. He knew exactly what he was doing. And when he said, I laid her down, that's malingering passivity. That is covering up a crime. That's being, I don't know, minimizing. That's the only word I can come up with because your prior guest was right. He's thinking about a defense and he lies all the time, probably to his mother, to his

friends, to the girls he meets in the bar. So laying her down is just like the least of all the lies he tells. It's the beginning. You're absolutely right. The tip of a very, very large iceberg. Listen. The sand and we start kissing each other. I start, I get her to kiss me again. We start kissing each other and I start feeling her up again. And she tells me, no, she tells me no. She tells me she doesn't want me to feel her up. I insist. I keep feeling her up either way. Even in her condition, roofied, drugged, inebriated, she fights back. And don't you know, Cheryl McCollum, that if he is admitting she need him in the crotch and she fought back, there was a struggle. There was a war between the gods as best of a defense that she could mount in her condition. She fought back.

And he's admitting to this much about an inch when we know there was a mile. And again, I think it's really important that he's saying I felt her up. That doesn't sound consensual. I laid her down. She didn't lay down. He laid her down. So again, nothing he's even saying trying to make it sound better sounds consensual. And when you hear him even describe her underwear, and I think it's extremely important for people to remember when he first started this about, we were kissing, I was touching her, I felt her up. And he describes the underwear down to the flowers embroidered on them. He is talking to her father, her stepfather, her mama, and several men from their church and community. And he was 17 years old.

Listen to more. Me in the crotch. When she needs me in the crotch, I get up on the beach and I kick her extremely hard in the face. Yeah, she's laying down unconscious,, even dead, but definitely unconscious. And I see right next to her, there's a huge cinder block laying on the beach. When you say cinder block, looking at the walls of this place, is it like those? The exact same cinder blocks.

I see a huge cinder block laying on the beach. I take this and I smash her head in with it completely. Her face basically collapses in. Even though it's dark, I can see her face has collapsed in. Afterwards, I don't exactly know what, you know, I'm scared. I don't know what to do. And I decide to take her and to put her into the ocean. So I grab her, and I half-pool and half-walk with her into the ocean.

I push her off. I walk up to about my knees into the ocean, and I push her off into the sea. And, yeah, after that, I get out. I walk home. He's so lying. Did you hear that? Yeah, and then, gosh, what should I say next? So, yeah, then I go home.

That's a complete lie. If he had put her body at knee depth in the ocean, she would have washed right back up. So all of that is a lie. On earlier occasions, he states that his father helped him secure a boat, and they went out into the ocean and, quote, took care of it, that being her body. But let's jump into the here and the now. Is Jorn Vandersloot finally out of our country? Take a listen to our cut. A, our friends at CrimeOnline.com.

Jorn Vandersloot is no longer on U.S. soil. The 36-year-old Dutch national was released from the Shelby County Jail Monday just after midnight, escorted by U.S. Marshals to the Birmingham International Airport. The plane that was supposed to fly Vandersloot back to Peru experienced some type of mechanical issue and takeoff was delayed by 24 hours. However, now the man who confessed to killing Alabama teen Natalie Holloway in Aruba is officially back in custody of Peruvian officials to serve out the rest of his sentence for the murder of Stephanie Flores

and his concurrent sentence from the U.S. for extorting money from the Holloway family. Trying to extort a half a million dollars. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Irv Brandt joining us, Senior Inspector, U.S. Marshal Service International Investigations, Chief Inspector, Department of Justice, Office of International Affairs, bestselling author, which I believe are based on his travels around the world, apprehending felons, killers, drug lords, solo shot Curse of the Blue Stone, and flying solo top of the world on Amazon. Irv Brandt, how long is the flight from the U.S., from the Hugo Black federal courthouse

where he pled guilty to extortion to Lima, Peru? Well, Nancy, it depends. This was a charter flight. The United States Marshal Service This was a charter flight. The United States Marshal Service chartered a private jet, and they don't announce the flight path for security reasons. But they're going to have to fly from Alabama to a point, most likely Miami, refuel, then fly from there to Lima, Peru. And total flight time, you're looking at between 12, 14 hours.

But sometimes you have weather delays, your delays in refueling, things like that. So it could take up to a full day, maybe a day and a half from start to finish. A day and a half. So possibly I'm trying to figure out Carol Robinson, senior investigative reporter for AL.com. Carol, thank you for being with us. Can we confirm he has touched down in Peru? Yes, he touched down at 5.58 p.m. Eastern Time, and I don't know what that is in Peru, but United States Eastern Time, 5.58 p.m. meets her in a casino, lures her away. She ends up strangled and bludgeoned dead.

And then the same callous treatment of her in Natalie's case. He dumped her body in the ocean, according to him. In the case of Stephanie Tassiano Flores in Peru, he sat at the foot of her body and had his coffee and croissant and read the paper while she's lying dead in the floor, her body not even cold. 28 years on that, plus he's using and dealing drugs behind bars. He got another sentence for that. That's where he's headed. It's about a 22, I've been told, hour drive from the Lima airport across the mountains to this Peruvian fortress of a jail. I want to talk about that flight. Irv Brandt joining us. You said it was a charter flight.

This guy gets a charter flight. Of course, I don't want him sitting next to me on a plane. But explain what you mean by that. Well, a lot of prisoners can't be taken by commercial flights just for security reasons. And a lot of it depends on how high profile of a case that it is. High profile or how dangerous the perp is? Both. It could be both. And the Marshal Service doesn't own the planes, but what they do is they take bids from companies for these flights. And typically, a chartered flight is $6,000 a flight hour, I would imagine, but total cost. Did you say $6,000 a flight hour I would imagine the total cost. Did you say $6,000 per flight hour?

That's correct. It doesn't go by the time that you have the jet. It goes by the cost is by how many hours the jet is in the air and typically it's around $6,000 per flight hour. This guy's costing us a mint. It would probably cost this flight to Lima. I've done it before. I've done it to Peru. I've done it to Colombia. I've done it to different places in Europe. It's going to cost about between $100,000 and $150,000. Okay, that's kind of a big chunk to swallow, but the alternative is what? Having him sitting beside your daughter on the plane? Correct.

No way. No way. And if he makes a fuss or if he tries to fight or anything like that, the pilot is in command of the plane. You want to allow him on the flight. And so you could end up being stuck. That's why they do a chartered flight where the only people on the plane are the flight crew, the United States Marshal Service, and the prisoner.

So is the inside like a regular plane? It is like a regular plane, Nancy. It's just like any person who chartered a flight. It'd be chartered a Gulfstream, a private jet. It's configured in the same way. All the seats, all the bathrooms. Correct. Can he go to the bathroom on the plane?

He can. He can. Isn't that a risk? Let Jorn Vandersloot walk around the plane when he's going to a life sentence in a Peruvian jail? As I said, the only people on the plane are the prisoner and the U.S. Marshals. And they're going to take him. He's going to be fully restrained at all times. He's going to be leg irons, waist chain, cuffed to his waist.

They would take him to the bathroom. They're not going to allow him to close the bathroom door. So you're saying triple restraints, arm, waist, legs. That's correct. And whatever he's fed, he's fed by the United States Marshal Service. Wait, are you actually telling me he gets a meal on the plane? What, beef or chicken? What? No, no, it's not like if you were chartering a jet or flying first class. What, you're kidding. You actually think they give you food jet or flying first class. What? You're kidding. You actually think they give you food on Delta in first class anymore?

Not from what I spotted from my spot in economy. They got crackers and chips just like everybody else, but go ahead. Right. He would have gotten a meal that was brought over from the jail. Oh. Whatever he would have had in jail where he would have been incarcerated, they're going to bring him a meal. You're making me feel a little bit better.

So he gets to go to the bathroom, even though I consider that to be a danger, a serious danger on a plane, because he's finally heading back to a 28-year sentence plus 18 for the drugs. This is maybe his last chance. Although you got that 22-hour drive from Lima to the fortress of a prison across the country over the mountains, that would be a good, a wonderful opportunity for him to try to escape. And from what we hear, he's in route right now from the airport to the prison. That would be a more likely, a more likely escape scenario in my mind to jump out of a van as opposed to what are you going to do once you overpower the air marshal? Jump out of the plane?

No, not a good escape route. So he gets all the way there. And I assume he shackled and that the air marshals or the U.S. marshals are armed at all times. Well, Nancy, the marshals would be armed on the plane. They're they wouldn't they're not going to escort him to the prison. They're only taking him to Lima. Then they'll turn them over to the police at National. And then they'll escort him. The marshals would never get off the plane armed. If they had to leave the plane for any reason, they'd lock their weapons up on the plane. I don't trust the local police at all. They're the ones allowing him to have booze, drugs, and conjugal visits behind bars.

What else will they do while they're transporting him 22 hours on a drive? Would they let him go? I don't know the answer to that. But you have taken these flights. What happens on the flight, Irv Brandt? Well, it's pretty much like any other flight. Once you get the prisoner on the flight, like I said, he's fully restrained. You're going to put him in a seat.

Is he shackled to the seat? No. He's shackled by leg irons. He's shackled by a waist chain where his hands are cuffed to his waist. Then he'd be strapped into the seat. And there's going to be at least four deputy U.S. marshals on the flight. He's not going to overpower four deputy U.S. marshals while restrained by his waist and his leg. Yeah, you're right. Dr. Bethany Marshall, it's not like he's with a defenseless teen girl who he's just drugged with GHB. This time it's four air marshals, U.S. marshals. You know, the thing that makes me laugh about that, I think of the crime with Natalie Holloway. Of course, that's nothing to laugh about. But sex and aggression get fused.

They're one in the same. That's part of the MO of the crime. He's not going to get away with that on this plane, right? This is the first time, well, yeah, the first time this guy's going to come up with bullies bigger than him. Not that the U.S. Air Force Marshals are bullies. That's not what I'm saying. But people who are stronger, people who are more powerful, he has never experienced that in his life. It's like Murdoch.

When Murdoch went to jail, no one had ever gone against him. So this is kind of a disorienting experience for sociopaths. They don't think that the other person is more powerful, so they will try to fight them, and then they will realize that they have met a greater foe. So right now, we believe that Jorn Vandersloot is probably already in a transport van, which I certainly hope is heavily guarded and has all the safety features we have in the U.S. But what now? Carol Robinson, I understand that Aruba wants the U.S. file, including your VanderSloot's confession, correct?

Yes, they told us that within a day of all of the confession being released and his guilty plea. We spoke with the prosecutor's office there, said it would take some time to review it. Of course, like they haven't already had 20 years. Also with me right now, two incredible guests. T.J. Ward is joining us from T.J. Ward and Associates. He is the private investigator that worked on the Natalie Holloway case and Joseph Scott Morgan, like Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and host of a hit series, Body Bags. First to you, T.J. Ward, I have another problem, and that is,

I know that Jorn Vandersloot killed a sedated girl, a teen American girl in Aruba, and he has never been brought to justice for that murder. I know that he murdered Stephanie Tassiano Flores. He has been brought to justice on that. He got, in my mind, a light sentence, 28 years. I know that he island hopped and from Aruba and along the Netherlands and Tilly's, you can go from one spot to the next very easily. But you and your team uncovered in the search for Natalie's remains crushed dog bones and in those dog bones were crushed human remains. What was the gender of the human bones. They were a female that was later learned

that it was not Natalie Holloway's, but it was a female's bones. Of European descent. Female bones of European descent. Okay, who is she? Who is that? TJ, do we have any idea who that woman is? We have no idea. When the bones were turned over to the Aruban authorities, they claimed, the Aruban authorities claimed that the bones were all animal bones.

The bones were turned over to Dave Holloway and I, and we sent those bones to Washington, D.C. to be tested. And we learned that one of the bones was human. And it was a female, European, but it was not Allie Holloway's. To this day, we do not know whose bones they were. And Aruba is denying that there was a human bone within those remains. Is nobody worried that in some way Jorn Vandersloot is connected to a third set of human female remains? Okay, to you, Irv Brandt, help me. Help me. I mean, how easy is it for Jorn Vandersloot to go from Aruba to the Netherlands Antilles to Dutch homeland?

He hops from place to place with impunity. How many women are missing? How many women could be dead? And there remains him. We've never found Natalie's remains. Now we've got this third set of remains that is connected to, they are connected to Jorn van der Sloot. We've got Stephanie Tassiano-Floris. How many more are there, Irv Brandt?

What's the possibility? There's no way to tell, Nancy. It's like you said, he's a Dutch citizen. He can go from island to island to island. There could be victims all across those islands. We have no way to know. Cheryl McCollum, is nobody worried about this third set of remains but me and how many other victims could be out there?

I think everybody's concerned. I know when we first started talking about the human bone mixed with the dog bone, we were like like it just stopped nobody went the extra mile to try to figure out who is this girl has anybody reported somebody else missing it's also being ignored because we know what the rubin authorities did with natalie if it had not been for beth holloway we wouldn't be here today to joe scott morgan help me out joe scott what if anything can be done now it's like this woman doesn't even exist just like cheryl said oh dog bones bones mixed with human female what human female bones remains crushed in with a dog dog remains and no one

is investigating no one's calling on aruba calling them out going no this is investigating? No one's calling on Aruba, calling them out, going, no, this is female remains. Why aren't you doing anything? Here's the deal. They, by virtue of what we've heard, have already developed some kind of DNA profile, it would sound like. So here's the question. If you have this profile which fits, we have one category female, we have European. Now, you can delineate between Western European and Eastern European, and that's called phenotyping.

Here's the thing. How many other people are missing on the island? Have they had track? You know, just a cursory search. And it could be tourists, a tourist as well. So they may not even have a record of that person. If you go back, for example, this woman, Robin Gardner, who went missing back in, I think, 2011 on Aruba. You know, if you have profiles of individuals like that, you take the profile that you have, okay, that you actually possess from this question bone that was commingled with these animal bones, and they have living relatives that are out there. You do a comparison between those living relatives and the sample that you do have to try to narrow the field down. And, you know, as you well know, Nancy, you know, the leaps and

bounds that they're going to with, you know, forensic genealogy at this point, it's advanced so much further now that I think that they could put a fine point. The question is this. Aruba has shied away from anything that is going to give them even a bigger black eye. I don't know how much bigger it could get, but are they willing to tear down those barriers and say, listen, we're going to put families ahead of what our bottom dollar is here? Not going to happen. No, I don't think it is. I really don't. The fact that there are other victims actually ties into his confession.

The way Jordan Vandersloot did the confession, it's like an addict, a sex addict, reliving and retelling a story that he has lived in his mind many, many, many times in jail. When sex addicts come to my office, they tell about their exploits in a way that they're reliving, like they're getting a way that they're reliving, like they're getting aroused while they're telling the story. And I usually send them right back out of my office and say, I can't treat them. But his confession was something he relived, I believe, as a master of horror fantasy in the jail. And what that tells me is this is not his first time at the rodeo. He did this many, many times with women. If you think of him,

maybe first as a serial killer, secondly, as a sex addict, third is somebody who was so compulsive, he was on the prowl all the time. There have to be other victims. There's no way. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want to follow up on what Joe Scott Morgan and Dr. Bethany Marshall are saying to Irv and Gary Davidson. First with you, Gary Davidson. And T.J. Ward, please jump in. Gary Davidson, as you know, partner of Diaz-Luis International Law Firm. Take a look at the map. Aruba is situated right there between Venezuela, Colombia, Panama.

You think they've got a crack police force that even care about tourists? No, they're too busy with the drug trade in colombia so you got venezuela colombia panama curacao bonair which is it's a puddle jumper from bonair to aruba and bonair is desolate there is like goats they're gonna what find a dead body there no it will decompose before anybody even knows it existed not too far from puerto rico dominican cuba's that's a stretch to the u.s that's a stretch but there are so many places he could have gone gary davidson yes and tracking that down uh could be difficult particularly in connection with the Dutch islands, because as you know, very often when you have a passport that allows you free reign in neighboring affiliated countries,

like would be the case with Bonaire and Côte d'Azur, you may have gotten in and gotten out without having to have a stamp put on or any record of his visits. So you're searching for a needle in a haystack. It's extraordinarily difficult without a concentrated effort to determine his whereabouts at various particular points in time, it would be almost impossible to trace this, especially given the amount of time that's transpired since the murder of Natalie Holloway. TJ Ward with me, a private investigator that worked on the Natalie Holloway case from TJ Ward and. T.J., when you first saw the bones, crushed as they were, specifically crushed, so hopefully nobody could figure out that there were

human female bones included, what did it look like, T.J.? Well, what was surprising, when the bones were first found, there was only three bones in there. And then when the bones got turned over to law enforcement, when Gabriel turned the bones over, when I called the chief of police, there were four bones. And so we knew something wasn't right. And the Aruba authorities claimed after three weeks that they had the bones tested, and they were animal bones. And I questioned them. I said, well, what kind of animal bones were they? Oh, they they were animal bones and I questioned them I said what kind of animal bones were they oh they were just animal bones well after the bones were turned it turned over to me and we took had those bones tested in Washington DC they came back and said there was a human bone in the

midst of all those bones so we we knew something was bad, bad, wrong. The Aruba authorities did not test those bones. Why are they still lying? With me, T.J. Ward, who was on the scene in Aruba, saw these bones. He personally had them tested in D.C. and they are, in fact, human female bones mixed in with dog bones. Irv Brandt, if Aruba won't follow up, would never follow it up on Natalie Hallway. I mean, Cheryl McCollum, you know what happened? Beth's mother and I got detained by police, threatened with arrest. If they're going to do that to us, Cheryl, you really think they're going to follow up on this third murder victim?

There's not a chance. But I say, depending on who has the bone now, let's get it to Offram. Let's go the next step ourselves. We still have possession of some of the bones. They are stored and put away in Washington, D.C. right now with the company and the investigator that had the bones tested for us. We still have copies of them. So we still have the bones. So that could be tested, for instance, at Othram Labs, who specializes in very difficult to analyze DNA data.

I mean, they can identify DNA that's been underwater, that's old, that's been mixed with other DNA just like this. So it is possible. Irv Brandt, why is there no motivation for Aruba to do the right thing? Aruba doesn't want to open that can of worms. They don't want to look into this any further. They want this case to be over. They want people to quit talking about it. If they start investigating one case, it'll lead, just like everyone on your panel is saying, if you start investigating one case, it's going to open

other cases. That's correct. And pretty soon it's going to be all over the news of all these murder cases, of all these people disappearing. And that's the last thing in the world they want. I'm curious about what's going to happen to him in Aruba now. Cheryl McCollum was sitting with me in the courtroom when Jorn Vandersloot was sentenced by the judge in the Hugo Black federal courthouse a little over a week ago. Cheryl McCollum, I noticed the judge kept saying, if for any reason you're released early in Peru, I did not like that. I mean, she was correct. Of course, she's a brilliant judge, by the way. It made me think that she believes he could be released early in Peru. Yeah, I thought she did a beautiful job. And several times she was looking right at him and his attorney, and she

clarified, do you understand what I'm saying? Do both of you agree? Have both of you signed this? So I think she was making sure that he knew if you think you're going to go back there and come up with some, you know, okey-doke to get out of here, some scam, some con, you're going to come right back here and see this whole thing through. But if they release him in Peru, Irv Brandt, how are we going to get him back here? The Office of International Affairs will work with the Peruvian government. And if he comes up for release, the U.S. Marshal Service will go back down there and they'll bring him back to the United States so he can serve his 20 years in federal prison. If he is, to your question, if he is released without Office of International Affairs being notified, then it would become a fugitive investigation.

And he would be, the Marshal Service would track him to whatever country. Oh yeah, he'll get tracked. You know, we were talking about him puddle jumping between islands and countries. The wake of pain he's left behind him everywhere he goes is unimaginable. I want to circle back to the possibility, the remote possibility, that Aruba asked for the U.S. file, including his confession to murdering Natalie, so a prosecution can go forward. Gary Davidson, it's so hard for me to believe that Aruba actually has a 12-year statute of limitations on murder. Is this true? Yes, they do have that limitation. It's interesting.

And, you know, remember, their system is a civil law system. It's not a common law system. So the view on these sorts of things is a little bit different in those sorts of jurisdictions. For example, the Dutch don't have the death penalty. The most that any victim can expect or a family of a victim can expect is life imprisonment for someone who murders one of their family members. And Aruba is a Dutch territory, correct? Yes, it is, and it's incorporated many of the Dutch civil law approaches into its jurisprudence. Interestingly enough, the Dutch are, as to particular issues like genocide, crimes against humanity, and so forth. And their laws reflect that. And interestingly enough, the Dutch do not

have such limitations for such crime. Then if it's a Dutch territory, why does Aruba have a 12-year statute? Well, remember that the crime against humanity and genocide are defined terms in international law. And they form what is considered to be a concept called Jus Cogens. And it's spelled J-U-S space C-O-G-E-N-S, Jus Cogens. And under that concept in international law, any violation of a Jus Cogens standard can lead to imprisonment. Look, I still don't know why Aruba has a 12-year statute on murder, but a photo has just emerged of Jorn Vandersloot, Natalie Holloway's killer, who confessed in open court to killing Natalie, being handed over to Peruvian police.

He still is shackled at the waist, the hands, the wrists, and the legs, triple shackle he's wearing a bulletproof vest from interpol and he's smiling at the peruvian authorities the peruvian authorities do not look amused at all so as we go to air now he is in route to his peruvian fortress jail. Everyone was claiming, oh, he wants to stay in the U.S. for the great treatment. No, he doesn't. Because in Peru, he gets booze, drugs, and unlimited conjugal visits behind bars. So he wants to go back to Peru.

My only question is, will he be released early? And will we be ready? We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.