Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Judge Slams 'EMPIRE' Star's Appeal for Conviction of Faking Hate Crime on Self

Episode Date: December 16, 2023

Empire co-star Jussie Smollett gets released from jail while attorneys appeal his conviction for lying to police about a hate crime attack.  Smollett’s attorneys argued that he would complete the sentence by the time the process was completed. They also cited homophobic threats received by the actor in their request for emergency release. The special prosecutor responded to the motion by saying it was “factually incorrect.” Two of the three members of the appellate court agreed with Smollett’s attorneys.    Well, an appeals court upheld Smollett's disorderly conduct convictions.  He now will have to finish the 150-day incarceration part of his sentence.   Joining Nancy Grace today: Matthew Mangino – Attorney, Former District Attorney (Lawrence County); Author: “The Executioner’s Toll: The Crimes, Arrests, Trials, Appeals, Last Meals, Final Words and Executions of 46 Persons in the United States;” Twitter: @MatthewTMangino Dr. Shari Schwartz– Forensic Psychologist (Specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy); Author: “Criminal Behavior” and “Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology;” Twitter: @TrialDoc Paul Szych – Former Police Commander (Albuquerque, NM), APD Domestic Violence and Stalking Unit; Author: “Stop Him From KillingThem;” Twitter: @WorkplaceThreat Alexis Tereszcuk – CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker at Lead Stories; Twitter: @swimmie2009   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It never ends with this guy. Here is a guy with fame. He is a TV star, money. He's making millions of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars per episode on the hit TV program Empire. Many argue he's handsome, well-educated, loving family, but Jussie Smollett will not go away. Don't tell me you don't remember Jussie Smollett. I will never forget this guy. All that money, all that fame, but he wants more. So he launches a fake, a fake racist hate crime on himself. has two of his friends conduct the fake hate crime. And now he's mad that nobody believes him.

As a matter of fact, he was convicted. In the last hour, a judge has to step in, an Illinois court slaps down the Empire star Jussie Smollett's appeal against his disorderly conduct conviction, meaning he will have to spend, wait for it, a whopping 150 days behind bars. Okay, who could forget the time and money, the angst, the confusion, the pain, the emotion caused by this TV star, Jussie Smollett's claim that anti-gay racist hate crime was perpetrated on him. And then it turns out he did it to himself. Oh, what, to make more money from Empire? He was convicted on five counts disorderly conduct. He could have gotten a lot worse.

He was sentenced to 150 days in jail, 30 months on probation, $120,000 restitution to Chicago, and a $25,000 fine. Wait for it. Smollett only served six days behind bars, whining and complaining and crying. He was released when his lawyer filed an appeal. It's called an appeal bond.

I've never seen one granted in all the cases I tried. That means after you're convicted, you don't go to jail. You get out of jail and you wait for an appeals court to rule on your case. Seriously? Well, it happened and he got out. Well, now he's going back. But what was the case all about? I want you to listen to this from The Today Show. I'm not suicidal and I'm innocent. I could have said that I was guilty a long time ago. Even after a Cook County judge sentenced Jussie Smollett to 150 days in jail, the disgraced actor turned convicted felon sticking to his story. If I did this, then it means that I stuck my fist in the fears of black Americans in this country for over 400 years.

The former Empire star's unwavering claim of innocence, ultimately his undoing. She committed hour upon hour upon hour of pure perjury. Judge James Lynn sentencing Smollett to 30 months felony probation, including that jail time, ordering he pay more than $120,000 in restitution to the city of Chicago and pay the maximum fine, $25,000. You've turned your life upside down by your misconduct and shenanigans. You've destroyed your life as you knew it. As a defiant, Smollett was taken into custody, his family blasting the judge's decision. He's the reason why folks aren't going to report hate crimes. They're the reason why folks aren't going to report hate crimes.

Okay, you heard Jesse Smollett going down swinging, lying through his teeth till the end. When you hear that reporter going on and on about 30 months felony probation, probation, that means you're not in jail. This guy, after all he put everyone through, after the disservice he did to real crime victims, he was going to do about five days behind bars. He got sentenced to 150 days, and now he's done about five days. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

With me, an all-star panel, Matthew Mangino, former district attorney, Lawrence County, former parole board member, author, executioner's toll, Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist specializing in capital crimes, author of Criminal Behavior and Where Law and Psychology Intersect, Paul Zeit, former police commander, who I can't wait to hear what he's going to say, author of Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon Kindle. But first to Alexis Tereska, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Alexis, you know, the whole thing goes all the way back to his ridiculous claims of a hate crime perpetrated upon him because he, I guess his main thing was that he was gay or because he was black.

It was a mixture when he went out for a 3 a.m. subway run. How in the hay has Smollett gotten out after just a few days? So the judge spent almost an hour telling him all of the reasons why he was putting him behind bars. The reasons was he was found guilty of five felony counts of disorderly conduct for lying to police about this hate crime. He says that he was attacked at two o'clock in the morning in Chicago in the dead of winter, absolutely sub freezing weather. Two men he claimed wearing red hats that said, make America great again.

MAGA hats. He blamed us on Trump, said they attacked him and said, this is Trump country and beat him up and tried to hang him by putting a noose over his head. The jury said this was a big fat lie and found him guilty of lying. So the judge sentences him to jail. He appeals. Well, he first asked the judge, can I have an appeal? The judge says, no, you're going right to jail, goes to jail. His lawyers file a claim with the appellate court and say he has been sentenced to only five months in jail, only five months. We want to appeal this. We're going to drag this appeal out longer than five months.

So if you keep our client in for the whole five months and then when it's done, the appeal court overturns the conviction. He will have unnecessarily served this time i don't care jesse smollett hate crime faker walks out of jail after release serving less than a week of just 150 days hey does everybody remember when paris hilton went to jail and she was going to do what she got like a six month sentence, something like that. She did three weeks, maybe because the jail was overcrowded. Was that Nicole Richie? One of them. And it was high drama. And the bottom line is when you have a sentence like 150 days, you're going to get out really quickly anyway. But to petition the court to get out early after what has gone down.

Take a listen to our cut. Twenty nine. Our friend Patrick Eldwood, WGN. Almost three years after he reported being attacked amid homophobic and racial slurs, actor Jussie Smollett took the stand in his own defense. While being questioned by his attorney, Smollett described the early morning incident, saying he had gone out to Walgreens to buy eggs, but it was closed, so he opted for a Subway sandwich store instead. On his way home, Smollett says he crossed paths with two men wearing ski masks, with one of them yelling racial and homophobic slurs and saying he was in MAGA country while recognizing him as an actor on the TV show Empire. Smollett says he threw a punch in his defense but doesn't know if it landed. He fell to the ground and was kicked. He testified that after the attack, he didn't even know there was a noose around his neck because,

quote, I was getting my ass whooped, unquote. But yet there were no injuries. He had a tiny little cut, and I don't know how many pictures he took of it. Now take a listen to our cut 33, our friend Charlie DeMar, CBS News, Chicago. The actor also told the jury that he would do drugs with Abel Osindaro and the two had a physical relationship. He said during a bathhouse encounter, there was some touching. Abel denies

those claims. I'm ready to do what I got to do. It's likely that the case will hinge on whether the jury believes Smollett or brothers Abel and Ola Osindaro, who testified Smollett paid them to fake the attack. Wait, let me understand something. Alexis Tereschuk, the payment was tracked down. Wasn't it a check? The payment was tracked down. tried to tell the jury that these two guys that he did drugs with, that he went to a bathhouse with, that he allegedly had romantic attachment with, sex with, they're the ones that attacked him, and they're the ones he couldn't identify. No wonder the jury didn't believe him.

Exactly. These are guys that he's been friends with for years, and in fact, they were known to people on the set of Empire. They are personal trainers. But he wrote them a check, an absolute paper trail, undeniable paper trail, even though he says it was for something else, maybe drugs or maybe anything else. He can't really remember. But also, he doesn't care because these two, he doesn't even know if they were the ones that attacked him, even though they were caught on video. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Oh, yes. In the last hours, an Illinois court slaps down Jussie Smollett, the TV star's appeal, against his misdemeanor disorderly conduct convictions, meaning boo-hoo, wah-wah.

He'll have to spend 150 days behind bars. I think you should spend at least that much just for the irritation he's caused me for Pete's sake. The way this thing unfolded. Remember? I think we need a shrink and we need one pretty quickly. Hate crime faker, Empire star, Jussie Smollett. Straight out to Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist joining us. This guy needs to shrink. Well, that does seem to be the consensus,

at least in the psychological community, Nancy. Anybody who fakes something like this, an illness, a crime, or they fake injury, typically what we start to look at is something called factitious disorder. If you think about Munchausen's by proxy, when that's done to other people to get sympathy for yourself, this is kind of where you do it to yourself to get sympathy for yourself. But in this case, he might also have, you know, not so much a mental health disorder like that, where he's almost sympathetic. But this might have been for personal gain in terms of promoting some movie project that he was working on to get publicity. Oh, he got publicity, Dr. Sherry Swartz, didn't he, Alexis Teresichuk? But who's ever going to

hire him ever? That's the thing. This is his career is absolutely over. Empire was a huge, huge show. To hang with his career? What about Lady Justice? Okay, back to you, Alexis Tereshchuk. I know you're in Hollywood and that's your mindset. My mindset is about how hard I fought to prove convictions, to prove cases. Put a jury through H-E-L-L, missing work, away from your children, away from your home. You know, nothing drives me crazier than have to be away from the twins. And they're in court all day long. Listen to this guy whine about how bad he's got. How much was he getting paid an episode, Alexis? $200,000 an episode. An episode. Did you hear that? did you hear that did you hear that whining carrying on and he's been behind bars what's five times 24 is that 120 something he hasn't even been behind bars 200

hours and he's out he has he has walked free there the appellate court has three judges. It was not a unanimous decision. It was two to one, majority rules. And he walked out of court at 8 p.m. Chicago time. In a whole Hollywood production again. You know, Jesse has five bodyguards. He has family members. He has defense attorneys. The biggest entourage you've ever seen outside of the TV show entourage.

It's like everything is a Hollywood production for him. Guys, take a listen to our cut 32, our friends from WGN. Smollett testified he resisted calling Chicago police because, quote, I am a black man in America. I do not trust the police, unquote. But later, he said responding officers treated him very well. He testified as a gay black man. He felt the incident would emasculate him and hurt his chances for certain types of future acting roles. Earlier in the day, Smollett testified he met the Osindaro brothers through his job on Empire and that he went to a Chicago bathhouse with one of them where they did drugs and made out. Prosecutors say he recruited the brothers to stage the attack as a way to pump up his career.

Who knows? Because reportedly the motive for the original race attack staging was to drum up PR about himself so he would make more money for his role in Empire. You know, all the hours, the man hours police put into solving the so-called anti-gay attack on Smollett. And last but not least, basically framing the two Osandero brothers to take the fall for a fake attack. Let's take another look at the facts. Matthew Mangino, former district attorney, Lawrence County, former parole board member, author, executioner's toll. Go ahead. This is a class four felony.

In most cases in Illinois, this this would be flat probation, no jail time. Because he's a Hollywood name, should we treat him more harshly than we would typically other people who file false report with police in your jurisdiction that took it to a jury trial and claimed he was the victim of a racial and homophobic hate crime name one well i'm sure there have been no no name one don't tell me yeah there have been who who did something like this well i don't know really of anybody who faked their own assault. Their own hate crime. They wouldn't do that, their own hate crime, because they don't have anything to gain from it. The worst conjuring, Matthew Mangino, is the noose.

The noose for a black male to have a noose put around his neck. And then we find out. Isn't this right Alexis Tereshak. And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'd rather know the truth. Didn't it come out that he took the noose off. And then put it back on. So the cops could get it.

And their body cam footage when they came back. He is screwing around with. One of the vilest. And most hated symbols symbols in our country. What happened to so many black males? Awful, awful history. And he conjures that up like an evil magician and puts it on and takes it off for effect. Yes.

Hell yes, he ought to be in jail. Isn't that what happened? Isn't that what happened, Alexis Tereschuk? It is. And in fact, he said that these random attackers put this noose on him. The brothers were on video at a store buying the rope. They didn't do this of their own. This wasn't their idea.

They did this because he told them what to buy. because this would have made the crime more salacious. And Matthew Mangino, I mean, a renowned lawyer and author, former district attorney, now private lawyer. Matthew Mangino, you're telling me that, hey, this happens all the time. They don't go to jail. B.S. This does not happen all the time. They don't go to jail. B.S. This does not happen all the time to prey on the fears of people all across the country, to prey on hatred and injustice and use it for a PR boost to get a raise and your salary. Oh, no, no. He needs to be in jail, Mangino.

Well, again, you know, we're mad at him. We're angry at him. But again, is he a threat to society? Is he a person who we should be afraid of, who's going to be turned loose on the streets? I mean, you know, if he wasn't a celebrity, we would have heard nothing about this case. You know, the fact that he's a celebrity, the fact that he has a platform,

he's an actor. It doesn't matter. That's the whole if a tree falls in the forest, does anybody hear it? Yeah. It can be heard, even if you're not there. It still makes a sound whether he's a celebrity or not. He did this thing. Right. And people in similar

situations who are convicted of class four felonies in Illinois don't go to jail. But you haven't been able to name another similar situation, have you? Another actor who's done something like this? No, I don't know of anyone. Anyone that's done something like this, preyed on prejudices and hate and a horrible, hateful history of targeting people. And the worst conjuring of all, the noose. I mean, it goes on and on and on.

I want to go to Paul Zyke, former police commander, author of Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon Kindle. Paul Zyke, what do you think? Well, I think you had two dozen detectives that engaged in 3,000 hours plus of investigation to bring an offender to justice that did not exist. And the fact that the officers were chasing essentially a ghost is something they're not equipped really. And you could go two careers without finding this exact situation where a top flight actor or any sort of high-profile individual or any victim, so to speak, would make up an entire story and have props and have all these other things to make you believe that these terrible things had happened. Furthermore, it also opens the door for an arrest to be made of the wrong people

or people that never were involved. We're so worried about people being in prison who have, you know, 20, 30 years ago didn't do what they were accused of doing. This exact setup, this exact paradigm could have created a situation where if they believed him and not these other individuals, the people that he hired to commit these crimes, they could be in prison for the next 20 years. And who's looking at that? Jussie Smollett is finally headed to jail, I think, anyway. For what? Staging a fake hate crime on himself. Why? To make more money. In a very misled and misdirected PR campaign,

he launched himself. The Empire star files the appeal in an investigation where Chicago cops conclude Smollett hired the two Osindaro brothers to carry out the crime. He was sentenced to, wait for it, 150 days in jail last year. But because of all of his moaning and groaning and crying and snotting, he actually got out on an appeal bond to walk free until his case is decided. Is there a chance this guy could somehow swing a new trial? You know, Paul, go ahead.

I'll circle back to Zyke. Go ahead. Yeah, okay, real quick. This is Matt Mangino. And again, you know, I understand the time that was put into this case, but you had 25 police officers investigating a false report to the police. There were 800 homicides. Whoa, wait a minute.

Wait a minute. You had all these cops investigating what they believe to be a hate crime, an attempt, a possible attempted murder, even by putting a noose around his neck on a celebrity because he's black, because he's gay. That's what they were investigating. And then all roads led back to Jussie Smollett. Right. They found the purple, right? It was Smollett. Yeah.

Let's put it in perspective. Eight hundred homicides in Chicago. And you've got twenty 25 police officers investigating this. No, you are not turning this back around on the cops. They think that someone out there. Wait, wait. Alexis Tereshak, at some point, did he say that the perps threw bleach on him? He did.

Oh, dear Lord in heaven. I mean, come on, Zyke. Help me out here. You hear me and Gino. If you believe that there are perps out there that are throwing bleach on a victim, beating them, wrapping a noose around their neck, taunting them, yeah, you're going to look for the perps. And then the fact that the victim's a celebrity making this crime high profile, giving your city a black eye. Yes, the cops are all over a potential hate crime because hate

doesn't die. That perp will do it again and again and release his hate in another way. The perp had to be stopped and you've got Mangino trying to turn this around on a cop. So there's that question. But this is what I was going to ask you earlier. It makes me think, what's it all for? Why did I beat my brains out trying to put bad guys behind bars every day, working till three and four in the morning sometimes, for this, for the PERP to be let out. How do you think the Osindoro brothers feel?

How do you think the jurors feel? The cops who stand by and see all that work, all that effort, for what? What about it, Zyke? Well, here's the thing. We talked about those 24 officers and you can imagine the emotions they're going through. They're PO'd. I bet they feel defeated, defeated. Absolutely. They put all that in for nothing. Any good cop that's worth their weight. And there's a lot of them in this country, by the way. Take that as a personal insult that somebody in their city could possibly be the victim of a hate crime and have all these justice, not on my watch. And to have all that be turned around and be an absolute farce and just sham of the criminal justice system, those officers, I guarantee you, are defeated.

Hell, they may even need counseling at the end of that. I mean, when you work that hard, I mean, Alexis Teres-Chuck, you have been around me when I've been working on a case. I live it, I breathe it, on a case. I live it. I breathe it. I eat it. I drink it. That's what I think about until it's solved.

And that can take days, weeks, months, sometimes longer. And when you finally crack a case, it finally goes to trial. And then this? I mean, I agree with Zyke. It's just such a defeat for everyone that worked the case. And, you know, the police officers, they, in the very beginning, believed him. They believed Smollett. They actually were stopping so many people because he had given a description of his attackers.

So they were questioning everybody in town. They were going to find the perpetrators little did they know they were his two friends that he was hanging out with all the time that he paid to do this but they were very serious about trying to find the suspect don't you know that prosecutor is beside himself take a listen to our cut V4. This jury worked so hard and for Mr. Smollett to get up in front of them and lie for hours and hours and hours. That really compounded his misconduct. And quite frankly, when I saw that happen in the courtroom, at least for me as a trial lawyer that spent my life in the courtroom we don't expect defendants to do that defendants have a right to go to trial defendants have a right to argue that their case

has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt but defendants do not have the right to go in front of a jury and lie under oath mr smollett would not have lost this case as he did today unless the jury found that he lied to them. And so that was something that I was very proud that this jury came to the conclusion that he's guilty. And the fact that he came up with a completely ridiculous story to explain his misconduct did not apparently have an impact on the jury's verdict. Take a listen now to our cut V4A Alpha. There's two things that I think stuck with the jury. Number one, I think my basic argument that it is ridiculous to think

that Smollett left his apartment on the night of January 29th at two o'clock in the morning to go buy eggs and that that's his explanation for why he ended up right at that intersection, right at two o'clock in the morning, that the brother said is where he told them the attacks should take place. So the fact that it actually happened that way, I think, was pretty profound. I also think that sometimes it's simple things. He actually rigged that rope. After that rope got put on him, I showed the picture to the jury. Pictures don't lie

those pictures showed that he actually after he went through this fake attack wanted to make it look better and he jimmied with the rope to make the noose look closer to his throat and rustled around because the rope you saw it in the courtroom was nice and neat around his neck because olas and daryl didn't have time to do much with it because a car came. And so he ran away. He left the rope next to his face. Smollett got up, put it around his neck. And then when it didn't look bad enough, he changed it. And I think that impacted the jury. Alexis Terescheck, is it true that Smollett refused to eat? It sounds like a child refusing to eat, having a little tantrum. He

wouldn't eat behind bars. And for Pete's sake, it's the local jail. Anybody ever seen Andy and Mayberry? For Pete's sake, when Otis would let himself in and out. It's not like he's in the pen. He's not in Alcatraz. He's not in max security in the hole, pete's sake he wouldn't eat so he claimed that he had given up food for lent so he was fasting for the entire duration of lent the 40 days of lent so he he says that he gave up food six days before he actually was sentenced to jail so he i guess at this point is now not eating for 11 days. I bet it was a religious thing. So he was going to starve for 40 days.

He was not going to eat for 40 days. The 40 days preceding Easter. Do I understand you? Yes. Okay, that's a lie. There's no way Jussie Smollett was not going to eat for 40 days. That's just not true. But fine.

Another lie by Jussie Smollett. And now he's dragging Easter into it. Did you hear that, Mangino? He's dragging Easter in. Well, the only person I know that fasted for 40 days was Jesus and Jussie Smollett. Do not start on him. Do not. I don't even want to hear him dragged into this conversation for Pete's sake. But I do agree that you're right. That's the only person I've ever known to starve themselves for 40 days and 40 nights. And although he was greatly tempted, he didn't give in. Smollett, however, is still lying through his teeth.

So Alexis Tereshchuk, he had nothing but water behind bars. Correct. The mean streets of the Cook County local jail, right? It is, but the Cook County jail is not a Cush jail. It is a notoriously bad jail. Well, what do you think jail is, Alexis Tereshchuk? Where are you joining me from? Rodeo Drive this morning?

No, I'm not on Rodeo Drive, but I am in Los Angeles. But jail is jail. But the Cook County Jail is pretty bad as well. It's not a nice one. Well, it's jail. What do you want it to be? A spa? Well, I also think that he was getting fairly special treatment.

But they said that they were. Well, you're right about that. Didn't he get moved from one place to the next so he could be, what, did he go to the medical ward so he could have a different surrounding? He was in, you know what, take a listen to Our Cut See. This is Leah Hope, ABC7. Four days into the 150-day sentence, Jussie Smollett remains in protective custody at the Cook County Jail. And his family remains steadfast in their support of the former TV star who was convicted for lying to police about a hate crime hoax.

He's very strong. He's very focused. Smollett's youngest brother visited him yesterday at the jail, where Smollett is in a cell by himself and being monitored in the medical wing. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Welcome back, guys. Remember Smollett told Chicago police he was attacked on a dark street by two masked strangers that put a noose around his neck signifying a lynching of a black male, pouring chemicals on him while yelling racist, homophobic slurs. They somehow even managed to work in support for Donald Trump. Wow, that's quite the coinkydink.

The brothers, who actually testified in court, told the jury Smollett hired them to fake the attack only because he wanted more money and to bolster, boost his celebrity profile. Smollett later said that in the days before the fake race attack, he and the brothers were together, but not to rehearse the attack. They were actually just getting high on pot. Matthew Mangino, former district attorney, Lawrence County, former parole board member, author, executioner, is told, Matthew, the medical wing is a cushy area.

You're not in general population. There are very few inmates in there. There are nurses walking around. They're measuring your hydration and your pulse and all that. Why was he in the medical wing? Well, you're right that the medical wing is like a hospital within a correctional facility. You know, maybe it's because he was starving himself. I don't know. You know, that's curious that he would be in the medical wing other than his absurd fasting. But again, should he even be in jail is the question.

I believe that the jury decided that. And you're still talking about it? The jury decided he was guilty. The judge decided that he had to go to jail. And again, if you're going to look at similar class four felonies in Illinois, they don't involve jail. Again, again, Matthew Mangino, you keep talking about similar crimes, but yet you have been unable to name one crime that you can specify that is similar to this crime. The breadth of his hoax on Lady Justice is beyond compare and still lying through his teeth as he sips ice water. Take a listen to our cut E from Fox.

Jussie Smollett going free, at least for now, while he tries to get his sentence overturned. The appeals court ordered Jesse's release during the appeals process. He will first have to post a bond of $150,000 before he's let out of Cook County Jail, although it's unclear when exactly he'll be able to walk free. Jesse started serving his five months last Thursday and immediately after the judge sentenced him, he started shouting that he was innocent and raising his fist in the air as he was taken out of the court in handcuffs. Tense moments inside of the courtroom in this video. His defense team

and his family members never stopped asking for his release, claiming that Jussie was in physical harm while behind bars. They cited racist and homophobic threats that they had received and also said Jesse was highly susceptible to contracting COVID-19 while in jails. Really? Racist and homophobic threats? Again? That second verse, same as the first Alexis Tereszczuk. That's what he claimed the first time. For all I know, it's Smollett from the Cook County pay phone calling his family.

I mean, they're they're they're tuning up with that again. I mean, if these threats were real, it would be different. But they've already been proved to be a lie, which does an injustice to every hate crime victim out there that has been targeted because they're black because they're gay because they're asian because they're a woman because they're fill in the blank hate hate because of who you are and they're they're preying on that again you know prisoners that are that are incarcerated complain all the time about how they have so little access to the outside world. It's very expensive to make a phone call.

The calls are collect, number one. But go ahead. And so the fact that they're saying after five days that social media, Twitter, Instagram is affecting how Jesse or Mr. Smollett is being treated behind bars doesn't compute. It just doesn't make sense that they think people who are saying things about him on social media would then somehow affect people behind bars. As if that information has infiltrated, you know, some sort of scary group behind bars is going to then target Smollett. It defies logic you know matthew mangino high profile lawyer joining us uh former district attorney in lawrence county now author matthew how many times has one of your clients gotten an appeal bond which means after you're convicted at

trial typically by a jury the judge says says, oh, you know what? Never mind about that conviction thing. You're going to walk free to an appeals court. For instance, the Illinois Supreme Court rules on your case. And then after they rule, maybe you can appeal it on up to the Circuit Court of Appeals. And after that, hey, maybe you can take it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. You just don't know how far this appeal is going to go. But the whole time, you can stay out behind bars. I mean, why even have a jury trial?

Well, to answer your question, you know, it's not entirely unusual to get an appeal bond. How many have you had? Well, I'm just just let me finish. It's not entirely unusual to get one from a trial judge who heard the case, who thinks that maybe you have an appeal that has some merit to it, based on him having observed the trial. So, you know, he may grant that. It is unusual to within five days, at least in my experience, to have an appellate court intervene and say, this person should have an appeal bond over the denial of the trial judge. That's unusual. I can't say that I've ever seen that. Can I ask you a question? Yes. How many times

as a prosecutor did you get a conviction on a case and then that person get out on an appeal bond? It's rare. Ever? Because that never had to happen to me as a prosecutor. Not once. Did one person that I took to trial and there was a conviction get out while they appealed the conviction? That never happened. And that was 10 solid years of intercity Atlanta high crime. I mean, I don't disagree with you. So never. Never in your history. And that was 10 solid years of inner city Atlanta high crime. I mean, I don't disagree with you. So never, never in your history. But if you have a trial.

You're not answering. I'm sorry, Matthew Mangino. You're not answering. How often did that ever happen to you? Did it ever happen? I would say a couple of times maybe in eight years. What did he say? Where a judge granted an appeal bond when, in fact, that judge fought.

Oh, one of your cases. I didn't hear the number. I'd say a couple. As a district attorney, every case was mine. So I'd say a couple of times it's happened. All right. I've never had it happen. Who's jumping in?

Is that Paul Zeit? Yeah, Nancy, I'd just like to make a quick comment, and that is, you know, when you look at this from the flip side, let's just say he would have been successful. Let's say that his plot would not have been discovered. He essentially would be setting up one or two or more people to spend, you know, a decade or two behind bars just to promote his career. You know, you're right. Those Sandaro brothers could have gone down for years on end for a hate crime, for throwing bleach on Smollett, for beating him up, for attacking him in the night, putting a noose around his neck.

Dr. Sherry Schwartz, what exactly is a pathological liar? Well, this is somebody who, I mean, to put it really simply, if their lips are moving, they're lying. That's how you can think about them because the lies literally just come out of their mouths with great deal of ease. Research on pathological liars shows that if they're hooked up to like an EKG, right, to check their pulse and things like that, that they lie and they really don't experience that same kind of physical reaction that somebody who's telling a lie that doesn't normally lie would like anxiety and things like that, heightened arousal. They just lie for the sake of lying. Lie for the sake of lying.

Is Jussie Smollett finally going to jail? Will he ever admit he did anything wrong? Is this going to be fodder for a made-for-TV movie or a book? Ugh, probably. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, probably. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.