Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KANSAS MOMS' BODIES STUFFED IN ICE CHEST, BURIED IN COW PASTURE, BLOODY CLOTHES, TASER, DUCT TAPE

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight just revealed the horrific details surrounding the disappearance of two Kansas moms. Tonight, the unthinkable. Were the two moms' bodies stuffed in an ice chest and buried 15 feet below the surface of a remote cow pasture? Were they buried alive along with bloody clothes, a taser, and duct tape? Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. New details emerge on brutally murdered Kansas moms. Court docs reveal Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's bodies were stuffed in a buried freezer. Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's vehicle found abandoned just miles from their destination,

Starting point is 00:01:01 surrounded by pools of blood. What really happened to these two Kansas moms? Yes, we can figure out they were carjacked en route to a kid's birthday party, but how did they end up dead or alive, stuffed into an ice chest 10 to 15 feet below the surface in a remote cow pasture. Well, I'm learning a lot from these just discovered court documents. And guess what? The defense wanted them sealed and they stated on the record because they don't want the Nancy Grace show to find out about them. Well, guess what? We did find out about them. That's what happens when your client is accused of murdering two moms and burying them in an ice chest in a cow pasture.

Starting point is 00:01:57 What more do we know? Listen. Documents reveal what investigators did to find the bodies of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly after they go missing en route to a child's birthday party. Questioning relatives and friends, investigators isolate a burial site about eight miles from where Veronica Butler's car is found abandoned. After two long days of digging, Veronica and Jillian are found dead, buried 15 feet underground inside a freezer chest. Cause of death not revealed. Oklahoma law enforcement says the women's murders were absolutely brutal. Joining me, an all-star panel, but first, I want to go to Chris McDonough joining us, director of the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over 300 homicides

Starting point is 00:02:40 under his belt, and now host of a YouTube channel, The Interview Room. You can find him at coldcasefoundation.org. Chris McDonough, I don't know if you've ever been in the horrible position of having to find bodies with ground penetrating radar. It kind of looks like those metal detectors you see people with out on the beach, but what it shows, it kind of looks like a sonogram when you look at it. I've handled many cases that had the groundbreaking radar and it looks like waves. It's all black and gray, but you have to know what you're looking for. Like on an x-ray or an ultrasound, you can actually see disturbed earth. That's what you're looking for. Like on an x-ray or an ultrasound, you can actually see disturbed earth.

Starting point is 00:03:28 That's what you're looking for. Anything disturbed, anything that looks like it's been moved. I'm just curious if you've ever had to use those. But in this case, let me just say, you know, I'm not one to judge unless it's a felony. I don't care what anybody does. But if it's got crime scene tape around it, I'm all over it. These people are idiots. They left a trail a mile wide.

Starting point is 00:03:54 These two moms are found in an ice chest 10 to 15 feet below the surface of a cow pasture. But Chris, on the top, there's all that's a really good aerial thank you there's fresh dirt cement chunks and hay and that one area but it still took two days of digging what do you think you know that's a that instrument that you're talking about Nancy I mean it does it shows an anomaly within the depth of the, you know, the surface of the earth there. And in this situation where they have, you know, blocks of concrete, like you're talking about, but the biggest clue in this whole thing, obviously, when you're looking at that device is the fact that you're going to have a hard metal,

Starting point is 00:04:41 i.e. some type of freezer that they discovered there. And I think the really crazy part here is it's 15 feet deep. That is a lot of work to get that item below the earth. Hey, you notice making me wonder, joining me in addition to Chris McDonough, Lauren Conlon, Dr. Kendall Crowns and Dr. Angela Arnold. Alan Bennett is with us, former assistant district attorney, now partner at Gunter, Bennett, and Anthus. Alan, it makes me wonder, listening to Chris McDonough talking, it just occurred to me, did they have this very deep hole, 10 to 15 feet deep? Did they have it dug before the murders? That's a lot of pre-planning because it took investigators two days to dig down and get to that ice chest. And I'm going to get to the

Starting point is 00:05:38 visual of folding over and stuffing two ladies into an ice chest in a minute. But that leads me to premeditation, Alan Bennett. Oh, absolutely. I think just from what little I've seen provided by the materials from your show, I think the state will have an easy time establishing the pattern in which these five people engaged in this conduct. I think there's a tremendous amount of evidence pointing toward their conviction at this point. Joining us again, an all-star panel to make sense of what we're learning right now, straight

Starting point is 00:06:12 out to Lauren Conlon joining us with the latest investigative journalist, host of the Outlier podcast. You can find her at laurenconlon.com. Lauren, tell me the latest. These documents are dynamite. They are going to torpedo the defense. Start from the beginning. We have two cell phones found in Cole and Cora Twombly's truck, a white iPhone and a black iPhone. Then we have the fact that someone else helped clean the truck. Back it up up i feel like making that sound when you

Starting point is 00:06:45 hear a large truck reversing going boop boop let's start sorry with the ice chest okay the ice chest with two dead bodies in it they used to be young moms last seen on the way to a kid's birthday party. Yes. Why are they in an ice chest? I want to talk about the excavation process. I know, Lauren, you're an investigative reporter and you go with the banner and I get it. I hear you. But when I hear something like two ladies 15 feet below the surface of a cow pasture in an ice chest, remind me to circle back to Dr. Kendall Kranz.

Starting point is 00:07:29 Gosh, you know, I'm going off in all kind of directions because there's so much evidence right now with these two Kansas moms. I want to ask Dr. Kendall Kranz about now that I know they're in an ice chest, how am I going to tell if they were buried dead or alive? But back to the excavation and what you're learning in these documents. There's a lot of them and we've all come through them with the fine tooth kind. Lauren, about the ice chest and the discovery of Veronica and Jillian's bodies. Yes. So it took two days to dig through this property. And essentially, we talked about a dam previously, and the bodies were found about 150 to 200 yards away from this dam. So they dug 15 feet. They found this incredibly large ice chest freezer, they call it, a trunk, if you will. And unfortunately, they found Veronica and Jillian as well as other bloody items that did not belong to the women. Guys, what more do we know about

Starting point is 00:08:35 what happened? Now, another issue, back to Alan Bennett very quickly, Alan, this was out in the middle of a cow pasture. So it's not as if police really needed a warrant because this disturbed earth is in plain view. But to dig under the dirt, to be on the safe side, I would think they had to have a warrant. Yes, no. Yeah, they would need to get a warrant or the permission of a landowner to go onto that property and to dig. Once they have consent, it's free range. But ideally, just to be safe, they would probably want to get consent and probably get the search warrant just to make absolutely sure. Guys, take a listen to this. Investigators execute a search warrant at an Oklahoma cow pasture.

Starting point is 00:09:23 Jillian and Veronica's bodies are placed inside a freezer with personal items that do not belong to Butler or Kelly. Investigators find bloody clothes, the handle of a saw, as well as a taser. Some appear to have blood on them, like a pair of Wrangler blue jeans with a black belt, a brown sweatshirt, a black hooded sweatshirt, and a second pair of Wrangler blue jeans. None of the items belong to Veronica Butler or Jillian Kelly. Lauren Conlon joining us, investigative journalist and host of The Outlier. Lauren, I want to talk about all these items that were found. Which items were found stuffed into the ice chest? So exactly what was just stated, the blue jeans, I have a whole list. There was a ratchet strap, I'm reading, a Carhartt jacket with possible blood, black

Starting point is 00:10:13 K-bar knife, a gray ball cap with possible blood, a pair of cloth gloves with blood, sketcher shoes, electrical cords with tape. It's disgusting. It's absolutely horrifying. It's something out of a horror movie, Nancy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Chris McDonough joining us, former homicide detective, now host of The Interview Room. Just think about it, because I once had a case. My victim was a Jane Doe, but her killer was a serial killer.

Starting point is 00:10:56 And I believed I could get him on one case. I couldn't muddy the water by trying to bring in any similar transactions because if they didn't go over with the jury, it would make them doubt my case in chief. So on one murder of a Jane Doe, I tried this guy and there was one piece of evidence. I thought about it and thought about it and thought about what does this piece of evidence prove? It's got to be important. It was one earring, Chris, one earring found in a different location near the body, but in a different location. What did it prove? Then I found out, and Dr'm looking here at the documents, bloody cloth gloves, shoes, so many things. But now from these, what can we deduce? A USB drive with pictures of a gravesite, a saw handle. What can I do with this? Well, Nancy, if I presented that to you in a court,

Starting point is 00:12:28 and you have done this many, many times before, that is a tremendous amount of information and evidence that shows a couple of things, malice of forethought, right? An evil intent. You have a taser, that's a control mechanism. You have clothing that's in the gravesite of itself. That tells us, okay, are the suspects or suspect, you know, eliminating their own clothing by throwing it in with the victims. You have a, what sounds like a cord of some sort, you know, maybe is that a strangling mechanism? You have a K-bar knife. Is that a coup de grâce mechanism? And then you have a piece of a saw. Are they trying to dismember the bodies? I mean, think about these two innocent women stuffed in that freezer. And just think about

Starting point is 00:13:17 the blood, the amount of blood that's trapped with inside of that freezer when the authorities discover those two poor victims. Hey, hey, what about this? Ratchet straps were found. What are ratchet straps? They are called tie down, according to my notes that I took, tie down straps. I think of bungee cords, like I would hook our bikes to the back of the minivan. Ratchet straps, but they're more industrial. Tie down straps used to transport cargo in a vehicle. Have you ever been behind a truck and it's got a whole lot of stuff in the bed and they've got a ratchet strap holding it in? I try to get away as quickly as possible because I'm sure they're going to fall off onto my windshield. Why are ratchet straps

Starting point is 00:14:06 in the ice chest with the two dead bodies typically used to secure things to a roof rack or a truck bed or elsewhere? Why did they need ratchet straps and are they bloody? You know, and that's a great question. And so what that indicates possibly there could be a third crime scene of some sort, i.e. the abduction site. They put this freezer in the back of some type of transport vehicle, strap it down with that type of strap, and then transport that to the third site where they dump the body in of itself. One other thing I'd be real curious about is what type of machinery they found, i.e. a backhoe or something to that effect. To get 15 feet down,

Starting point is 00:14:52 you know, it's going to take some type of machinery like that. Well, so bizarre. Well, among so many things that are bizarre in this case, when you look at a couple of the defendants, they actually look normal. Like if you pass them in the grocery store aisle you wouldn't think anything at all maybe him he looks fairly normal okay forget about the guy with the Led Zeppelin beard no no I would run the other way the grandma mmm I think. But the last two, if I pass them in the grocery store aisle, say the frozen section, I wouldn't think anything about it. And what is so really scary about it is that they were amongst everyone in the community and no one suspected a thing. We are discussing what we have just learned. And now I know why the defense lawyer wanted to keep this secret.

Starting point is 00:15:51 She wanted everything under seal. So quote the Nancy Grace show wouldn't get ahold of it. Guess what little girl? I got ahold of it. I want to go straight out to Dr. Kendall Crowns and talk about that. The fact that we now know the two moms just minding their own business all the way to a kid's birthday party. This is all about a custody battle by the grandma. Okay. She wanted the children. She didn't want the daughter-in-law to have them. She didn't even want her own bio son, uh, the biological father of the children to have them. She wanted them and would do anything to get them even discussed knocking off the judge and finding out the judge's route. Hey, let's, let's see the pretty picture of grandma. Okay. Yeah. Who look at that? It's in her car, but it looks like a glamour shot. What is she doing orchestrating a double murder?

Starting point is 00:16:49 She knew that there would be a friend in the car. That said, Dr. Kendall Crowns, guys, let me introduce him. He is the chief medical examiner. That's not easy to do. First, undergrad, then med school, then you intern, you resident, and then somehow work your way up to becoming the chief medical examiner in Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth, never a lack of business. Lecturer, the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Just let that sink in. He's told me he's done somewhere in the vicinity of 10,000 autopsies. Dr. Kendall Crowns, before we got this bombshell evidence and all of these documents, the defense tried to keep secret. We understood that the two moms were just buried. Why did I say just buried? Buried 10 to 15 feet underground in a cow pasture covered with about, I would say, a ton of soil, cement chunks, and then covered in hay. Now we know they were stuffed into a freezer. I am telling you, hell, open your gates because these four are coming.

Starting point is 00:18:10 How can I tell now that we're not looking for dirt or particles that you told me about? They could be in their nose, in the back of their throat, going down to the lungs. How am I going to tell now whether they were dead or alive when they were forced, crammed into an ice bucket, ice chest? It would actually be difficult to tell one way or another because the ice chest would prevent any dirt from getting into their system. So were they alive when they put it put into the ice chest, it would be anybody's guess because depending on the type of injuries they had. What about. OK, let me try to verbalize this. I can't speak your league, your medical jargon, but if someone has a blow to the head, you can see that if even if you have to pull their scalp back to find it.

Starting point is 00:19:02 If someone is mangled or ligature strangled, you can see evidence of that. If they're shot, if they're stabbed, if they're drowned, you'll find evidence of that. But if they were alive, maybe knocked out to subdue them, but alive when they were put in that ice chest, wouldn't they have died of asphyxiation, suffocation? And couldn't we see at least that? Because if these two died, go with me. I know you'll make sense out of this thread, Dr. Crowns. If they died by suffocation, asphyxiation, that will tell me they were alive when they were put in that ice chest. Why?

Starting point is 00:19:48 Because there's no process of elimination. There's no other mode of murder, cause of death. So how else would they have been suffocated? If you don't find bruising on the face or around the mouth or something was held over their face, wouldn't it be a natural, a logical conclusion of what we know? Well, correct. So if they have no other physical evidence of injury, then you can call it an asphyxiation or suffocation. The problem is, is when people are put into freezers and suffocate, which we do see occasionally with kids getting in the freezers. I've even seen suicides where people get inside a freezer and asphyxiate.

Starting point is 00:20:32 Is there is actually no findings you can. Dr. Kendall-Krautz, I have never heard of suicide by freezer until right now. So you have actually handled cases where people get into a freezer and shut it to kill themselves? Yes. So what were the findings on those bodies? There's no findings because the asphyxiation is basically you suffocate and there's no actually injuries that you can find at autopsy. Now, if someone's forced into a freezer and they want to get out, you might see like a hemorrhage under their fingernails where they're trying to claw their way out or punching their way out. But there's not going to be anything necessarily that you'll see from the asphyxiation that you can find.

Starting point is 00:21:15 See, I would argue that, OK, you just said there are no signs that they asphyxiated, that they were alive when they got in the freezer. But I would argue that no signs that that is a sign, because if you would expect these two to be beaten, dead or stabbed, shot, strangled, we don't see any of that. If we don't see any of that other than a blow to the head to subdue them, then what would be the cause of death? Isn't it true if you hold something over someone's face and they resist, you're going to see some type of evidence around the mouth or the nose where they tried to fight back or they bit their tongue or the inside of their mouth, some form of resistance? Yes, with a smothering where the hands place over the mouth, you'll get injuries on the inner mucosa of the lips from the teeth being pressed against it.

Starting point is 00:22:18 You'll also see defensive injuries where they're trying to get the arm off of them, things of that nature. But if they're knocked out, placed into a refrigerator, and then asphyxiated, you are correct. If there's no injury that would explain why they were dead, it's a diagnosis of exclusion. So all the other factors that could have killed them are ruled out. That means that they were asphyxiated or suffocated in the freezer. And what, Dr. Kendall Crowns, would they have endured if they weren't completely subdued, unconscious? What would they have endured in that ice chest? Well, not just the ice chest, but buried alive. So, you know, you're in this

Starting point is 00:23:00 freezer under a ton of dirt. It's dark. You're crammed in there with another individual. The oxygen's running low. You're panicked. You're in the dark screaming, trying to push your way out. You can't get out. And you're basically slowly going into unconsciousness, knowing that there is no way out and that you're going to die. Straight out to Lauren Conlon, investigative journalist, host of the Outlier podcast. Lauren, kitty litter used for liquid absorption of trace evidence, biological DNA evidence, digital photos. I'm very curious what those digital photos are.

Starting point is 00:23:39 Spatial scans. What do they mean by that? And all other evidence of the crime of murder. Explain. Yes. So let's not forget the pools of blood found around the vehicle, which the OSBI stated in these documents. It was either kitty litter or dry oil that was spread all around the truck. So that was really, really odd. And just really, I mean, just going back to what you stated, it was so, so premeditated. And then as far as the spatial scanning goes, I'm just thinking to myself that maybe they're just taking certain measurements with the evidence and everything inside that truck, because it sounds to me that there was so much in that truck. And let's also not forget that Cole and Cora Twombly

Starting point is 00:24:29 were the ones that stopped Veronica and Jillian in their tracks on that highway, and God knows did what to them. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm going to go to a renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Dr. Angela Arnold. Dr. Angie, thank you for being with us. Also, Professor of Psychiatry, has taught at Emory University, and former Medical Director of the Psychiatric OB-GYN Clinic at Grady Memorial. I can't tell you how many witnesses and defendants and victims I found at Grady.

Starting point is 00:25:20 That said, Dr. Angie, kitty litter. Those two words have never meant to me what they mean right now. Vast quantities of blood found around the spot where these two ladies were carjacked. Can I just see the two, the two ladies, please? Veronica and Jillian. They're on their way to a kid's birthday party. As you know, Dr. Angie, you've studied this case. And suddenly they're carjacked. They're brutally attacked, we believe by a hammer, because part of the hammer was found near the copious blood pool and the killers actually think ahead of time to bring kitty litter of some sort to put on the blood to absorb the liquid. And when I look at these two moms in the prime of their lives,

Starting point is 00:26:27 between them I think there were six children, and I look at these four defendants, my head is about to blow off, Dr. Angie. Kitty litter. Kitty litter. Nancy, it's these two beautiful women that were simply going to a birthday party to see her children literally drove into a trap. And what I have to wonder is, apparently they didn't have any fear of this happening to them. I mean, they were going to a birthday party.

Starting point is 00:27:03 I'm sure the mother wanted to see these kids who she hasn't been able to see in I'm not sure how long. I'm sure she was aware that there was a huge custody battle going on. But they drove to this birthday party without any fear, and they literally drove into a trap and were brutally murdered and then buried. And this entire thing sounds like it was all planned out. And I can't even imagine the evil, the evil that those that that group of people are made of, that they consist of, that they could have done this to a mother of two beautiful little children that they want custody of. Just thinking about the malice of forethought to Alan Bennett, former prosecutor and now law partner, Gunter Bennett and Anthus, the malice of forethought it took to imagine Veronica and Jillian while you're at the store buying kitty litter to soak up their blood. Now, as a defense lawyer, what could possibly be the comeback to that? Were I representing any one of these individuals, Nancy,

Starting point is 00:28:14 I would be racing all the other defense attorneys to the DA's office to express to that lead prosecutor, my client is the least culpable of all of these five. My client is ready, willing, of all of these five. My client is ready, willing, and able to sit down and cooperate to the fullest of their ability to assist in the prosecution of these other four people. How can we get this case resolved? I would be trying to negotiate the best possible resolution I could for my client. And if I were the prosecutor, much like I'm sure you would have done, Nancy, were you prosecuting this case, I would say, no, there are no deals.

Starting point is 00:28:47 There's no offer. There's no negotiation. Your client wants to plead unnegotiated to the court. So be it. But we're not making any deals on this case. Tell your client thanks, but no thanks. Who is Paul Grice? Trying to figure out exactly how Grice, who looks like a fairly normal guy, got roped into this whole thing. Joining me, Lauren Collin. Lauren, who's Paul Grice?

Starting point is 00:29:12 So Paul Grice is very young. He's 31 years old. He is a father. He is a husband. And I think a lot of us were very confused at first when the witness named him and it took so long for him to be arrested. So Nancy, what was also revealed in the most recent search warrants was the how Paul was eventually arrested. So Paul Grice was actually at Tad Cullum's house when police came to arrest Tad and they found that Paul had a bandaged right pinky finger and he told them that he heard it working on his pickup. Uh-oh, uh-oh. The part about the bandages is damning. Listen. According to court documents, the day Tiffany Adams' boyfriend, Tad Cullum, is arrested at his home for the murders of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly, Paul Grice is present, and FBI agents

Starting point is 00:30:06 notice a bandage on his right pinky finger. Grice tells the agents he cut it while working on his truck. Days later, Caleb Roberts tells police he saw Grice March 30 and 31 with a bandage on his right hand. Grice tells Roberts he cut his hand while cutting fencing. Well, that doesn't make sense unless he's wrapping the fencing around his truck. That's two stories so far, but it's not over yet. Listen. On April 17th, days after the bodies of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly are dug out of a 15-foot deep hole, Paul Grice is at Chad Pate's house asking questions about DNA, such as how long would it take the state lab to process DNA evidence? How long DNA would last in dirt? How long DNA would last on clothing in the dirt in a 15 foot

Starting point is 00:30:50 deep hole? Grice tells Pate he's concerned about his DNA being in the hole that Butler and Kelly were found in because he had been in the Twombly's residence. Grice also asks if he knows how to get a guy and his family into Mexico. I am so happy right now. Hey, Grice, you should have just called in to the show and we could have answered all those questions for you and then we'd have it on tape. Dr. Kendall Krause, let's answer a few of those questions. How long does DNA last on clothing or in the dirt? So DNA is going to be available in the dirt for a long time. You look at individuals buried and then dug back up, they're able to get DNA from them for years. So unless the actual physical item that the DNA is on completely goes away, I think they'd still be able to find DNA on it for quite a while.

Starting point is 00:31:47 Okay. You know what juries think, don't you? Have you ever seen, um, Jimmy, what's the name of the dinosaur movies when everybody's yeah. Jurassic park. We've seen them all. The juries expect that DNA lasts for millions and millions of years and that you can get a piece of DNA and basically regenerate the entire person. Actually, it's not that far off because we now know that DNA of various sorts are found, for instance, in Egyptian tombs and a lot of investigatory deductions are made from that DNA. So basically forever, Dr. Kendall Crowns? Pretty much. My example is the gentleman they found in the iceberg. I think they call him Otzi the Iceman. They were not only able to figure out his DNA, but also figure out his last meal and they determined how

Starting point is 00:32:45 he was killed. So it's there for a very long time. And then if you're talking about DNA that's in a freezer, which is a sealed environment, that's not even going to be subjected to the dirt and environmental conditions. It could be there forever. So you're answering his DNA question. Dr. Kendall Crowns, I don't guess you know how to get a, quote, guy and his family into Mexico, do you? Because that's Grice's next question. Well, for the right price, I could figure it out. New details emerge on brutally murdered Kansas moms. Court docs reveal Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's bodies were stuffed in a buried freezer. Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's bodies were stuffed in a buried freezer. Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's vehicle found abandoned just miles from their destination,

Starting point is 00:33:34 surrounded by pools of blood. Right now, I'm telling you, I would hone in on Grice, okay? The one who had all the stories about the injuries to his hands. The one that was frantically asking friends, how do I get my family into Mexico? How long does DNA last in the dirt? He's scared and he'll talk. I don't know if I'd cut him a deal though, but I would definitely try to interview him. What more do we know about this guy that could be the weak link in the chain, Paul Grice. Listen. 31-year-old Paul Grice mentioned as an accomplice, but investigators interviewed him and let him go.

Starting point is 00:34:12 According to court documents, Grice was part of God's misfits along with Tiffany Adams and the other suspects. Cole and Cora Twombly allegedly blocked the road diverting Butler and Kelly to where Adams, Tad Cullum and Grice were waiting. Grice claims he is not a citizen of the USA. He is not a resident employee or citizen of the United States government. He says that I hereby assivorate, repudiate and revoke my citizenship, if any ever existed with the legal fiction known as the United States government USA incorporated and any and all subsidiary corporations, ever existed with the legal fiction known as the United States Government USA Incorporated

Starting point is 00:34:45 and any and all subsidiary corporations, state, county, city. Not a citizen of the U.S. government. Okay. Yeah, I totally get him on the stand. Dr. Angela Arnold, a renowned psychiatrist at AngelaArnoldMD.com. What about this guy? He's, what did he say? He's repudiating and asseverating and revoking his citizenship, if any ever existed. Field day on cross. Right. He's like the link pin. Is he the person who possibly set up this whole God's Misfits organization?

Starting point is 00:35:26 I guess not. I just lost all faith in you, woman. You think this guy who's writing his manifestos and asking people how long does DNA last in dirt? You think he is the mastermind, the brilliant criminal? Seriously? Did you just say that? Well, I mean, Nancy, I wonder if he's the mastermind behind God's mystics. Oh, my stars, you said it again. Okay. Angela, if I may call you that. No, he's not a mastermind of anything. Any ding dong that writes a manifesto like this and goes around asking,

Starting point is 00:36:03 how long does DNA last in dirt? Like that's not a giveaway. I did something really bad. My DNA may end up in an ice chest with two dead bodies. Okay, Alan Bennett, I guess all of her degrees did not prepare her for this moment. How much would you like to get this guy on cross-examination? He's totally the weak link. Go for it. Oh, no. And I think that's what the doctor's point may be. That's the scariest

Starting point is 00:36:31 part of all of this is that that guy is the mastermind. That's the guy who has deposited all the funds into this brain trust. Okay. You know what? I'm clearly screaming out the window on Park Avenue. Chris McDonough joining me, director of Cold Case Foundation, homicide detective. He's not the mastermind. The grandma is the mastermind. Could you please explain why this guy, Mr. How long does DNA last in dirt? Why he's not the mastermind. Yeah, great. He's not the mastermind. He, if anything, you know, when you thought you've seen everything, here come the misfits. And, uh, you know, he's just one of those, you know, not the sharpest tool in the shed for lack of a better term. And he's, he sounds like a sovereign citizen, you know, those guys and gals that say, Hey, I'm not part of the United States. I'm in the middle of nowhere. So therefore, you have no authority over me. So I agree with you 100 percent, Nancy. He's the weak link.

Starting point is 00:37:32 The authorities keep the pressure on him and hopefully he's already talked. OK, guys, we are waiting as this case inches forward to trial. And here's my advice to the prosecutor, since nobody asked. Don't take a plea. Do not take a plea. Two ladies, mothers, are dead and likely may have died in that ice chest. Or else they had their brains beaten out with a hammer on the highway. Uh-uh. Don't take a deal with one of them.

Starting point is 00:38:11 You don't need a deal. Let them all stew in the same pot. We stop to remember Deputy Sheriff Tucker Blakely, just 29. Deputy Sheriff Tucker Blakely, just 29. Deputy Sheriff Tucker Blakely shot and killed, responding to a domestic, Knoxville, Tennessee. U.S. Army vet, combat medic. He is survived by a grieving wife, Katrina, and his five-year-old little boy. American hero, Deputy Sheriff Tucker Blakely. Let me thank all of our guests. What a brain trust joining us today. But I especially want to thank you for being with us tonight and every night.

Starting point is 00:38:56 Thank you to our MSM viewers and family. Nancy Grace signing off. Good night, friend. This is an I Heart Podcast.

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