Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KANSAS MOMS IN HORRIFIC HOLE, 10 FT DEEP, DIRT, CEMENT CHUNKS, HAY: BURIED ALIVE?

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

According to court documents, the elaborate plan to kill Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly began with a simple lie, the day before the murders.  Tad Cullum, the boyfriend of grandmother Tiffany Adams,  had asked the owner of the property he rented for cattle grazing, if he could do some work in the pasture, with his skid steer.  Picture a heavy-duty front-end loader, with lift arms that can attach to various tools, especially ones for digging. Cullum reportedly said he wanted to cut down a tree, remove a stump, and bury some concrete. The intent was that if the hole was discovered, it was explainable.  If the land owner was asked about the disturbed dirt and track marks,  he could honestly answer that some dirt work had been done and concrete had been buried. The landowner just didn’t know there were bodies underneath. News reports also say there was hay placed near and on the digging site to draw Cullum’s cattle to the spot, to trample the earth, further disguising the dig.    The OSBI, the FBI, and the Texas County Sheriff’s Department followed cell phone pings to find a horrific scene, a 10-foot-deep hole, 8 1/2 miles from the mom's abandoned car,  in a pasture on leased farmland and near a bridge. Whether the two moms were buried alive.... not yet revealed.       Associate District Judge Clark Jett entered "not guilty" pleas on the behavior of Adams, Cullum, Cora, and Cole Twombly. Judge Jett also assigned pro bono attorneys for each of the four defendants and denied bail. According to the police affidavit the 4 suspects “  had “resources sufficient to organize and execute a complex murder and therefore, they also have the resources to flee if given the opportunity.”  The police documents also say Adams and Cullum own numerous firearms, and Cullum had a rifle, ammunition, body armor, and a “go-bag” prepared at his home.    Joining Nancy Grace Today: Squirrel - Founder of God's Misfits    Garrett Oates - Veronica Butler's Lawyer (during custody battle) Tom Smith - Former NYPD Detective, Co-Host of the GOLD SHIELDS Podcast; FB & Instagram: @thegoldshieldshow   Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School Rachel Bernstein - Cult Expert - Therapist - Host of IndoctriNation Podcast   Lauren Conlin – Investigative Journalist, Host of The Outlier Podcast, and also Host of “Corruption: What Happened to Grant Solomon; X- @Conlin_Lauren/ Instagram- @LaurenEmilyConlin/YouTube- @LaurenConlin4   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight, two Kansas moms ambushed on a remote Oklahoma road, left behind multiple pools of blood and a broken hammer found beside mommy's empty car tonight, a bone-chilling discovery. Investigators follow cell phone pings to find a horrific hole 10 feet deep. The two moms at the bottom covered in a massive amount of dirt, cement chunks. And hey, were the moms buried alive? Overnight, a fifth suspect arrested in the murders of the two Kansas moms, another so-called member of the cult God's Misfits. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Paul Grice arrested in the murders of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly. I want to thank you for being with us. part of God's misfits alongside Tiffany Adams and the other suspects. Cole and Cora Twombly allegedly blocked the road diverting Butler and Kelly to where Adams, Tad Cullum, and Grice were waiting. Documents also reveal Grice claims he's not a citizen of the USA. He claims that he is not a sovereign citizen. He's not a resident, employee, or citizen of the United States government. He goes on to say that, I hereby asservate, repudiate, and revoke my citizenship,

if any ever existed, with the legal fiction known as the United States government, USA Inc., and any and all subsidiary corporations, state, county, city. He also claims that he is a living soul, living under God's law and his grace alone. Living under God's law and God's grace alone. I'm not so sure how God feels about murdering two defenseless mothers on their way to a kid's birthday party.

That said, let's talk about what we know right now. In addition to a 10 foot hole, how long did that take? Talk about premeditation under the law. A 10 foot hole found by investigators as they follow cell phone pings only to find the bodies of these two mothers at the bottom covered in, it's got to be a ton of dirt, cement chunks and smoothed over with hay. Were the moms dead before they were thrown into the hole? Also, in the last hours, overnight, an arrest of a fifth suspect. Who is Paul Grice?

A young man in his 30s. We are learning that he claims he's not a citizen of the U.S. Really? Now, what's he doing in Oklahoma and Kansas? Not a resident, not an employee. Does that mean he doesn't have a job or a citizen of the U.S. government? He says, I asservate his word, not mine, repudiate and revoke my citizenship with the legal fiction known as a U.S. government. Oh, dear.

And claims he is a living soul. OK, with me, an all star panel to make sense of what we know right now. Paul Grice. What does he have to do with this scenario? I want to go first to Lauren Conlon, investigative journalist who's been on the case from the beginning, host of the wildly popular Outlier podcast. Lauren, thank you for being with us. Who is Paul Grice? How the hay does he fit in with these four other wingnuts that kill two unarmed mommies? Who is this guy, Lauren Conlon? So when the arrest affidavits came out for all four suspects, there was a fifth suspect named by the witness, by the 16-year-old witness.

And this was Paul Grice. So I started digging and I ended up finding these insane land records. And Nancy, I want to point out, there are 44 pages of this gobbledygook nonsense that he actually addressed to the Secretary of State, Antony Blinken. I don't know if he actually sent this to him, but it was addressed to him. And so Paul Grice, he was said to be at the scene of the murders with Tiffany Adams. Lauren, I'm holding it. His manifesto that he sends to Blinken. OK, when somebody has the time to write a manifesto like this decrying the U.S. government and more, he's got time for a job. What does this guy do? Who is this guy?

Do you know that? Hold by a few sources, he could be a farmer, but I can't confirm that. Okay. That tells me that he may very well not have a job. And frankly, if he's got time to write a manifesto like this, I don't know how he's holding down a full-time job. Guys, did this whole thing stem from a custody dispute? The grandma in this scenario, may she rot in hell, apparently was so enraged that her daughter-in-law, this is Tiffany Michelle Adams, age 54. So enraged that her daughter-in-law, whom she hated with all of her heart, was going to get supervised visits or visits, not supervised visits, every Saturday. She was so enraged by the bio mom, look at her, getting to see her own children that she hatches a murder plot. Now she ropes in her boyfriend, Tad Cullum, and she ropes in Cole and Cora Twombly. And as Lauren Cullum was telling you at the get-go, just break it down really simply, Lauren. He was mentioned, the new

guy, Paul Grice, age 31, in the very beginning in the affidavits that he was around and took part in the planning and part of the execution of the murder plot. We knew that at the beginning. What took so long to arrest him? Yeah, that is the question because he, it stated on the affidavit, the new one that came out yesterday, that he was interviewed only on the 23rd of April and then he was arrested yesterday on the 24th. I think all of us are wondering this. And in addition, the affidavit also stated that Tiffany Adams bought five stun guns. So we know all five suspects had them and were a part of this horrific, horrific act. That's very important because by buying five stun guns at the outset, and I guarantee you the state is going to have surveillance video of her going in and out of that gun store. I mean, I think they

will. The fact that she bought five at the beginning tells me that there were five cohorts, five suspects to start with. Guys, in the last hours, we learn of an arrest of a fifth suspect. What, if anything, did he have to do with the entire scenario? We're learning a lot about Grice specifically that he claims to be a member of the cult group God's Misfits. Listen. The OSBI determines the sect of God's Misfits includes Tiffany Adams, Tad Cullum, Paul Grice, Cora Twombly, Cole Twombly, Barrett Cook, and Lacey Cook, and is anti-government with a religious affiliation, hosting weekly meetings at Twombly's and Cook's residences. The leader of God's Misfits is in South Carolina, a man who goes by the name Squirrel.

He says the murder suspects are not affiliated with him or his group, and he has no relationship with them. Without equivocation, Squirrel says, the God that I serve condemns such hate. Joining me right now is the founder of God's Misfits, who goes only by the name Squirrel. Mr. Squirrel, why do you say these people that are holding weekly God's Misfit group meetings in their homes are not part of your group, God's Misfits? First off, I've just recently learned we're international. We're national.

We're national. It's just me and my wife. And it was just me before I remarried. If people actually go on my Facebook and website and everything and read, they realize I'm not in with that kind of hate. And I'll tell you something else. Scripture says that whoever takes God's name in vain will not be held countless.

They have taken God's name in vain when they have taken God's name on their heinous, demonic, hateful act. This is a hate crime. And no, I don't have a chapter. Why would I have a chapter if There's only two of us. There's no chapters. There's no, I'm not the originator. It's just me. I'm just trying to put videos out there, sharing the love of Jesus, sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I don't know how a cult comes up with their names.

You know, a cult chose God's misfits. Well, I'm going to have to change it to something like maybe God's misfits of Jesus Christ or something where they won't follow me in that area. I guarantee you, they're going to stand before God one day. They can lie all they want to on the face of this earth, but they can't lie to the God that knows exactly what's in their heart, knows exactly what they've done, and they think they can get by on the grace of God? Well, they've taken God's name in vain

and posted it on this heinous act that they did. I think that I would do a complete overhaul with the name because that name, God's Misfits, has been totally contorted and is now associated with a double murder of two young moms. I get where you're going, that somehow God and Christ could take the worst of us and turn us into something new and wonderful. This has totally

destroyed that concept. Now, do you have any idea why they would pick your cult to claim their, excuse me, your group to be associated with? All I figure is the devil, well, Satan. All I figure is Satan has chosen me to try to smear something on me. I think maybe God's got something bigger in store for me and my wife. We know that we're kind of getting short.

It's getting worse out here every day. The evilness is out here. And then when the evilness claims to be from God. Okay, hold on just a moment. Squirrel, let me advise you, and I see no reason why you would ever be called in court as it relates to this case. But if you do, do not say the devil did it. Okay, because no jury is going to believe that. But, Mr. Squirrel, in a nutshell, did these people ever contact you by phone, by email, by letter? Have you ever met them?

Have you had any contact with them at all prior to learning all of this? I didn't know them. I'd never heard of them. I had no way to know that my name had made it down there, that they were getting smeared. I didn't know anything was happening at all. But no, I didn't know those folks. I didn't have any idea at all until the hate started coming our way. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Could these two moms be buried alive?

Could that have happened? Jillian Kelly and Veronica Butler ambushed on the side of a rural road, diverted, and then murdered? Or were they murdered there? Were they murdered right there where their car was found abandoned? Huge pools of blood outside the car, along with one of the mom's glasses near a broken hammer. With me, an and all star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first, I want to go out to Lauren Conlon. Could you explain again, where is the hole where the mobs were found at the bottom covered? It had to be close to a ton of dirt, cement chunks, and then smoothed over with hay on top. Where exactly was that as it relates back to the abandoned vehicle? So it was about eight and a half miles away from where the abandoned vehicle was found.

And Tad Cullum had rented this pasture. So he had rented a skid steer and he dug, as you mentioned, about 10 feet underground and then covered it with hay and with cement chunks and again, disturbed soil. And so he had rented this skid steer and the person who owned the property noticed that it was gone on the morning of the 30th, but there was skid steer tracks. And listen, people after the women disappeared, people had asked Tad, they had asked, you know, others, hey, did you have this any involvement in this? And Tad got nervous. And he actually said to the property owner, look, will you just say that I did some work here? Because it looks weird that the skid steer is gone. And the property owner said, yes, I will. No problem.

Joining me is Dr. Kendall Crowns, chief medical examiner, Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth and lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine, TCU. Dr. Crowns, thank you for being with us. I don't know yet whether the moms were shot dead and exsanguinated, blooded out based on the huge amount of blood found at their abandoned vehicle, the mom's vehicle, and the window was either shot out or beaten out on the driver's side. But that amount of blood may signify they bled to death right there. If not, how can we tell if the moms were still alive

when they were buried at the bottom of that 10-foot hole? There's a couple ways to tell if they're still alive. They could inhale the dirt and then have dirt in their mouth and in their nasal passages. Also, if they inhale it deeply enough, it'll be in like their main stem bronchi, which is the large bronchi taking air to your lungs. Another way is if they're beaten in the head and their sinus passage is also struck with

the skull, the hemorrhage will then leak into the mouth and nose and then they will inhale blood and you'll see a pattern of blood in the lungs. It's called leopard spotting in the lungs. And that way, you know that they've aspirated the blood because they were still alive and breathing. Dr. Crowns joining us from the medical examiner's office. Dr. Crowns, you got me drinking from the fire hydrant there. It's just too much, too fast. So, Dr. Krause, again, you mentioned something about if they were bludgeoned in the head, dirt could leak into their nasal passages. You just started at the beginning. How can I tell if I went before a jury in plain words, I don't have to be a medical doctor,

which I'm not to understand. How can I tell if these moms were alive, even if unconscious, if they were alive when they were buried under all that dirt, cement chunks and hay? So if they're still breathing when they're covered in dirt, you'll inhale the dirt into your lungs. So you'll see dirt in the nose, you'll see dirt in the mouth, and then as well in the passages that take air to your lungs, the bronchi. Also, when head trauma, if they're hit in the head or shot in the head, the nasal sinus, which is kind of right in this area, the maxillary sinus, nasal passages right through here are compromised.

Hemorrhage goes into there and then blood comes into the airways and then you are inhaling the blood and you get hemoaspiration, which is inhaling the blood causing this geographic pattern of blood in the lungs, which is known as leopard spotting. Now, if they have leopard spotting or hemoaspiration where you actually breathe in blood and it makes its way down to your lungs. I don't understand how that blood in the lungs would prove to a jury that they were buried alive. They could get blood to the lungs right out there on the highway where they were bludgeoned, we now believe, with a hammer. How do I know if they were buried alive? With that hemorrhage you're talking about, which to me means blood,

hemorrhage, bruise, blood, blow to the head, bleeding down, and I'm extrapolating that if they were buried alive, dirt would get into that blood. Somehow they would aspirate it and it would go down with the blood and create the leopard spotting, which is blood in the lungs. So the leopard spotting would be survival after the head trauma. And then if you're buried alive, the dirt in the airways is what you see with individuals that are buried alive. So it's kind of twofold. You have the hemoaspiration or leopard spotting, blood in the lungs from them surviving the initial head trauma,

and then dirt in the airways from them being buried alive. Dr. Kendall-Crowns, I don't know how to verbalize in medical speak, but in order to see or look for, whether you see it or find it or not, all of that, when I see autopsy photos or when I've attended autopsies, there is the giant V cut from the shoulders to the chest. And then it turns into a Y where you cut down the stomach in the center and you physically open the body. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. So how do you see if there's dirt in the bronchial nasal area? That does not require additional cutting, does it? You can just go like an ENT and look? Correct. Unlike an ENT, we have the benefit of we can remove the neck structures and then see the tongue itself outside of the mouth.

Also, we can push the mouth open and look in the roof of the mouth. You can insert a nasal swab into the nasal airways and pull that out, which will show dirt. course, removal of the brain, making an ear to ear incision, pulling the scalp forward and backwards, cutting the top of the skull off, taking the brain out, gives us access to the nasal passages of sinuses because we can cut into the base of the skull with a saw and see into those as well. So to Tom Smith joining me, former NYPD detective, co-host of Gold Shields podcast. Tom, how long do you think you and I have both dealt with buried bodies, right? How long do you think it took them to dig a hole 10 feet deep? Probably a couple of days.

And that goes to what you said at the beginning of the show, the premeditation of it. This was very well planned. When, where, how, all was planned out way beforehand. They knew where they were going to hit them. They knew what was going to take place at that scene. And then getting them back to that hole that was dug probably days beforehand to utilize it in getting rid of their bodies. You know, Tom Smith, when I asked you, I did not anticipate your answer as being a couple of days, but now that I think about it, you're right.

Now, we do know that one of the perps, alleged perps, may have used a skid steer, which is like a tractor, which aided it, but you're so right. Garrett Oates is joining me, high-profile lawyer in this jurisdiction. He is, was Veronica Butler's lawyer during her custody battle over these children. Garrett Oates, I don't know if this makes you consider another line of business that handling divorce and custody could end up in a 10 foot deep hole with two mothers, young mothers thrown down in there like a sack of hay, like a sack of potatoes to the bottom of a 10 foot hole and then covered with dirt, cement chunks, and hay.

What do you think? Did you ever imagine all the time you spent in law school, all the time you've been in the courtroom, all the legal research, the arguments you've made, that you would end up connected to a case where two mothers may very well have been buried alive. Well, you never plan on that, Nancy, certainly. Whether you're in law school, you're prepping a case up for trial or anything like that, you never plan on something like this happening. However, there are situations in family law, certainly, where either side of the aisle is capable of doing pretty heinous things as was done in this case. And so, yeah, you don't plan on that. But is it possible? And are people capable of

pretty crazy things? Absolutely. There's very little that I love more than digital footprints in a criminal case. Arguably, I love blood evidence more. But that said, I'm sure you've read the affidavit Garrett Oates with your usual attention to detail. If you, toward the end of the affidavit, really parse the words and really read it critically, we find that the cell phones, the burners that Tiffany Adams' grandma, the so-called killer granny, bought at a gun store, two of them are in one spot. One of them is at another spot. What are the two spots? At the abandoned vehicle, the mom's car, while the other pings are at the disposal site, the 10 foot hole. So somebody's down there waiting for the perps to show up with the two dead moms with the whole dug like a grave digger outside the local Methodist church

waiting for everybody to come out. And the others are up there at the vehicle where things quote didn't go as planned. Those are the words that the defendants said to a 16 year old little girl. Well, it didn't go as planned. It makes it sound like it's a church choir special. Didn't go exactly how we planned it, but it came out all right. So the gravedigger is down there at the hole waiting for these two young moms to be brought one in a flatbed, one in a pickup down there to be thrown unceremoniously to the bottom of a hole. How do I know that? Because the affidavit tells me the burner phones went to two locations simultaneously.

Weigh in. The affidavit is certainly very enlightening and has a lot of in-depth information included in it. I'm almost surprised at how much information is information included in it. I'm almost surprised at how much information is actually included in it, but I'm glad. And it certainly shows the thoroughness of law enforcement on this case and the investigators, the joint effort that was put into ensuring that when arrests were made, that these defendants were not going to be able to just easily get out of this. You know, Garrett Oates, I agree with you. I agree with you.

I was also surprised at the amount of detail in the affidavit. Why? Because why reveal all of your cards up front? All I need as a judge or a magistrate is enough to issue that warrant. But they gave me a plethora of information, and I am learning a lot. Hey, Garrett, you represented. Garrett Oates joining us, everybody. But they gave me a plethora of information and I am learning a lot. Hey, Garrett, you represented Garrett Oates joining us, everybody. Veronica Butler's lawyer during her life in a very hard fought custody battle.

Garrett Oates, tell me what that battle was like for mommy Veronica Butler. That custody case has been going on since 2019 and I was only hired on in September of 2023. However, Veronica, when I filed my first motion in the case, it was to ensure that she was getting any amount of visitation with her children again, which she had been deprived of since July of 23, and that's all in public record filings. When we had our first hearing in November of 23, Veronica was granted supervised visitation with her children on an every Saturday basis, which was the preexisting order. It was just not being allowed. She was being deprived of that time with her children. Wait a minute. Right there. What do you mean? She had visitation, but it, quote, wasn't allowed by who? Correct. She had an order in existence since December of 2022 that granted her every Saturday visitation with her children. However, that was not being allowed by Miss Adams, Miss Tiffany Adams.

So it was Tiffany Adams, the granny now accused, the mother-in-law accused of murdering your client, Veronica. Is that correct? That's who was not allowing the visitation between Veronica and her children, yes. I got another question for you, Garrett. law, Tiffany Adams also would very often refuse to let her own biological son see the children. That is accurate. And there was statements made on social media by her own son. And in his own words, he attested that his mother was withholding his own children from him as well. Associate District Judge Clark Jett entered not guilty pleas on the behalves of Adams, Cullum, Cora, and Cole Twombly. Judge Jett also assigned pro bono attorneys for each of the four defendants and denied bail. According to the police affidavit, the four suspects had, quote,

resources sufficient to organize and execute a complex murder, and therefore they also had the resources to flee if given the opportunity. The police documents also say Adams and Cullum owned numerous firearms, and Cullum had a rifle, ammunition, body armor, and a go-bag prepared at his home. Besides the multiple pools of blood, near the Kansas moms, OSBI, FBI, and Texas County Sheriff's Department officers find Butler's glasses on the ground near a broken hammer. Jillian Kelly's purse is also found. Inside the purse, a gun magazine, but no weapon. Police say the victims were forced into another vehicle. Both the women's phones stopped sending signals at 9.42 a.m. and have not been recovered.

We now learn that all three burner phones bought by Tiffany Adams pinged at Butler's car at the time of the attack. Two of the three phones pinged at the 10-foot deep hole. The bodies covered with dirt, cement chunks, and covered with hay. The women covered with dirt, cement chunks, and hay. Back to Tom Smith, former NYPD and host of Gold Shields podcast, thinking about the time and energy it took to skid steer that hole. Have you ever driven a tractor? I have. You ever done that? Yes, I have. Well, for me anyway, it wasn't easy. I guess for someone more experienced, it is easy, but I'm just thinking thinking about with every dig and throwing back the dirt. He's got time to think about murdering these two unarmed moms. How dare he borrow a skid steer, go

out to this land and dig a hole knowing that two moms would be thrown to the bottom of it. Tom Smith, you ever seen anything like it? Well, it's definitely unique when you actually have so many people involved as well. You know, a lot of times when holes are dug, it's a one-on-one situation or maybe two people. This group of people having this really diabolical, laid out plan is disturbing. And like you said, the hours, many hours and maybe a day or so, like I said before, to dig it gives you time to think. And obviously he did not care about that. They were hell bent on taking this to this level and putting those bodies in that hole. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Joining me right now, special guest Rachel Bernstein. She is a cult expert and therapist, host of the Indoctrination podcast. You know, Rachel Bernstein, I've got so many questions to ask you, but I just recently investigated and covered a very high profile cult related case. I'm sure you're familiar with cult mom Lori Vallow. Take a listen to this, Rachel. After meeting Chad Daybell, cult mom Lori Vallow became obsessed with doomsday and preparing for the end of the world. Vallow had drained her bank account and now believes she was a resurrected being, a goddess, chosen to lead the 144,000 alongside Chad Daybell, the prophet. Vallow believed she was married to Daybell in the past and that she knows when the second coming is happening. Vallow also believed that spirits, or zombies, were ranked by a system of light and dark.

Her children were dark spirits, and the only way to get rid of a dark spirit was to kill the human body it was in. Vallow believed husband Charles Vallow had been taken over by a dark spirit named Nick Schneider. Charles Vallow was shot and killed by Lori Vallow's brother, Alex. Same thing, Rachel Bernstein.

Same thing. Under the cloak of religion and doing God's will, two innocent people dead and in that case with cult mom Lori Vallow may she rot in hell she orchestrated the murders of her own children little JJ was as I recall seven or eight years old with a learning disability had no idea what was about to happen and then her daughter 16 year Tylee, all that was left of Tylee, and it pains me to say this, but I learned in front of juries, you have to just say it and get it out. All that was left of Tylee was a bucket of human flesh and fat burned. That's all that was left of this beautiful girl. Why? Because they were zombies. Because

cult mom Lori Vallow was so enthralled with her new husband. What was it, Jackie? Husband four or five? I don't know. The prophet. Chad Daybell, his wife ends up dead too. He's on trial for that. But she's so enamored with jumping in the sack with Chad Daybell that she thinks it's okay to kill her two children and was convinced she was, quote, a goddess chosen to lead the special 144,000. Well, if that's all it's going to have, and I'm just SOL here alongside the prophet. And now we've got two more people murdered and disposed of like they're trash, like a sack of potatoes, as I said earlier, her, she's gorgeous. She's full of love. All she wants to do is be

with her children. The other mom was a ride along, helping out in a visitation. They're dead because of the so-called cult God's misfits. Now, the founder says, I have nothing to do with them. But I think all their meetings just were cover for a reason to murder the two moms. Right. I agree with you. Whether they're connected to the group that is called God's Mitzvahs, you know, originally, or they started their own, I think they felt they had permission. They had the need to protect the world from these people, to protect the grandchildren from these sinners. So I understand from our first guest, Mr. Squirrel, the genesis of the name God's Misfits. But these people banded together and they seem kind of anti-government, anti-U.S.

And then they mix in a little of their home-cooked religion. What's your expert analysis of this? Right. It is home-cooked. It is their own version. And it is something that I think made them feel very driven to be able to do something that we find horrific, but that they found necessary. Groups like this have their own form of morality. They feel they're above the law. And also, if you're anti-government and you think that God talks to you, then you're going to feel that you have the right to take matters into your own hands. And you can hide behind God when you're doing it. You know, in the law, we call that mistake a fact. Like you bring a truckload of cocaine across the state lines and you go, oh,

my goodness, I thought it was a truckload of turnips. Well, that's a mistake of fact. And you committed a crime. These people that think they're saving the earth from what, two unarmed moms or saving the grandchildren from the two moms? I mean, they had even had discussions about killing the judge on this case, that they knew her route to the courthouse. Really? Yeah. My question to you is this, Rachel Bernstein, cult expert and host of Indoctrination Podcast. This is not by any stretch of the imagination, a legitimate insanity defense, which means under the old McNaughton rule brought over from the UK that you do not know the difference between right and wrong at the time of the incident. If they had not realized that it was

right or wrong, they wouldn't have been so surreptitious, so secretive about it. Right. I think it's a very good point. When this happened, I was really struck by the horrific nature of it, the heartlessness of it. But it's something I see a lot where people just don't have compassion for people they see as less than, for people they see as lacking humanity. If this person, Tiffany Adams, thinks the whole world is a simulation, you don't have to feel bad for killing someone within that simulation, because you might have convinced yourself that what you're doing isn't real. I think about the days, the time she spent with those grandkids knowing she was planning their mother's murder and that she could show herself to be a compassionate,

loving grandmother all the while having that on her mind knowing she's going to be robbing them of their mother. The four suspects are being kept in the Oklahoma-Texas County Jail, but that doesn't mean they will be having contact. The individuals are being separated in the 96-bed facility. Currently, the building houses 47 inmates, 36 men and 11 women, in separate sections for each gender. According to the sheriff, Tad Cullum and Cole Twombly are intentionally held on opposite sides of the men's section, separated by four pods. The women, Adams and Cora Twombly, are also separated by pods, ensuring no contact. Tom Smith joining me, former NYPD co-host Gold Shields podcast. Tom, they're going to great pains to make sure that these defendants are not close to each other

and are not having contact. That is significant. Why? Well, it's very significant because you want to keep each story separate. And down the line, you want to see which one you're going to use to roll on somebody else. So you want to keep the integrity of each interview on its own so you can put it together and come up with more of a substantial case and use really rock solid evidence and statements from each of them. Okay. Tom Smith, I agree and disagree, but I look at it like this. I don't want one of them to roll over. I want them to all go down for the maximum sentence, be it life without the possibility of parole or the death penalty. That will be up to a jury. So I don't want to go to hell to get the witness to put the devil in jail. I want them all to go down equally in the murder of these two moms. But the other part I agree with.

I mean, think about it, Tom. Look what they've already done when they get together and scheme. They've planned and executed a double murder. Yeah, it's horrible. And I didn't mean to give them a deal. What I just meant by that was let them talk and gather more information on the event that happened and the crime that happened, not to necessarily give them a deal, but to make sure they give proper statements and good statements, either implicating each other or who

was more involved than somebody else, not to give them a deal whatsoever, because I am on the same page as you. They show a rod for what they did to these two poor women. And think about the children left behind, left behind without a mom. Guys, as we wait for justice to unfold in the murders of the two Kansas moms, we stop and remember an American hero, Sergeant Thomas A. Sanfratello. Sergeant Sanfratello passes away in the line of duty, awarded the Deputy of the Year twice, loved serving his New York community, and spending time with his three children,

leaving behind a significant other, Nicole, and children, Kyla, Alexis, and Ian. American hero, Sergeant Thomas A. Sanfranello. I want to thank all the guests for being with us tonight, but a special thanks to you for being with us tonight and every night. Nancy Grace, signing off. Good night. Nancy Ray signing off. Good night.