Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Karmelo Anthony SOBS: Guilty in Stab-Death of Austin Metcalf, 17 @ HS Track Meet

Episode Date: June 11, 2026

Nancy Grace and her all-star panel break down the shocking conviction of high school athlete Carmelo Anthony for the shocking murder of 17-year-old standout student and football star Austin Metcalf. What was supposed to be an ordinary track meet in Frisco, Texas, escalated into a horrific tragedy when a simple dispute over a team tent during a rain delay ended with Metcalf being stabbed in the chest. The panel dissects the jury’s swift three-hour deliberation that resulted in a guilty verdict and a 35-year prison sentence, deeply analyzing the defense's failed "stand your ground" claims, the implicit intent behind bringing a weapon to a school event, and the critical DNA evidence. Beyond the courtroom, Nancy exposes the unimaginable trauma endured by Austin’s twin brother, who held him in his final moments, and addresses the disturbing online harassment and "swatting" attacks targeting the grieving Metcalf family as they navigate a senseless loss. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Randy Kessler – Defense attorney based out of Atlanta, Georgia. Lisa Herrick – Trial lawyer, partner at Varghese Summersett, and former juvenile prosecutor. Dr. John Delatorre – Licensed Psychologist and Mediator (specializing in forensic psychology); Psychological Consultant to Project Absentis: a nonprofit organization that searches for missing persons; Twitter, IG, and TikTok - @drjohndelatorre Barry Hutchinson – Former 26-year Law Enforcement Veteran and Detective, Owner & Chief Investigator for Barry & Associates Investigative Services located in Kansas & Missouri Douglas Griffin - Senior Police Officer and President of the Houston Police Officer’s Union, Served 29 years Specializing in the Gang Task Force and Divisional Gang Unit  Dr. Kendall Crowns – (Fort Worth, TX) Chief Medical Examiner for Tarrant County (Fort Worth), Host of Podcast: Mayhem in the Morgue, and lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at Texas Christian University. Katy Barber – Senior Digital Content Producer at My San Antonio  Dave Mack – Crime Stories Investigative Reporter.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Great grade star athlete, beloved twin brother, how does he end up stabbed dead at a high school track meet? The suspect and the victim had never even met. There are about two dozen witnesses. This is a high school track meet for Pete's sake.

Is it true that a high school track meet for Pete's sake? Is it true that a stand-your-ground defense is brewing? Premeditation, the intent to kill, can be formed in the blink of an eye, the twinkling of a moment. The family devastated. I cannot even imagine. A murder over what? Austin Medcalf is a 17-year-old straight-A student and football star at Friscoe Memorial High School.

But what is supposed to start out as an ordinary track meet ends in tragedy for the prodigious athlete. Joining us tonight, Crime Stories Investigator reporter Dave Matt. Dave, what's the latest? The trial is over. The jury has spoken and the sentence is in. It's an amazing time in the Carmelo Anthony case at this point. Joining us today, Randy Kessler, to talk about what took place after the jury verdict that determined Carmelo Anthony guilty.

and in a shocking way to go, the jury only deliberated for three hours. This is an amazing thing when you think about the magnitude of this case. One of the things that was brought up in particular by Austin's dad, Austin McHaff's dad said, this case is not about race. It never has been about race. It's always been about teenagers in high school. And it was made into a race issue outside of that. all of the media covering this case from around the country.

And it's amazing now that as we go forward with this, you break it down and it really does look like two high school students, athletes that got into an argument over what was the place for one team, not for the other. It was a track meet. There was rain. And Carmelo Anthony went into Austin Metcalf's team area. If you can remember back to high school, things were very very. very important like that to students in high school.

As you look at it as an adult, you're going, come on, you're really going to argue about this? Well, yeah, in high school, you do argue about that. And that's what this entire case was about in terms of what started the disagreement, what became the argument that ended in the death of Austin Metcalf. The jury decides guilty after just three hours. Randy Kessler, attorney out of Atlanta, long time part of Nancy Grace's show over the years. Randy, give me your ideas and thoughts about the jury verdict. Let's start with just the verdict of Carmelo Anthony. Thousands of thoughts going through my mind, right?

And you hit on a few times the fact that it was only three hours. You know, sometimes it could take three hours to pick a four person. It could take three hours to figure out where the jurors want to sit while they're deliberating. To come up with a verdict in three hours on a murder. case. Now this isn't a shoplifting. This is something that's very serious. You want to make sure that our system, that the people think about it, take it seriously, which, you know, every time you talk to a jury after the case, it's amazing how seriously jurors take this, even though no one wants to be on a jury. Once you're on it and you're sworn in, you see how serious the

results are going to be and the consequences for the community and for the defendant. People take it seriously three hours. Defense really didn't have much of a shot. When it goes three hours, you know that there's not a lot you could have done. This was it going to be a guilty, just a question of was it going to be one hour, two hours, three hours, or five or six. As a defense lawyer, the more they deliberate, the more holes are being poked, the more questions are being asked, the more you are hopeful and optimistic. And if you can get them to deliberate overnight and go home and sleep on it and think, do I want to put somebody away for something I'm not sure they intended to do, that's better.

When it comes back in three hours, your heart sinks as a defense lawyer. when the jury gets their instructions from the judge and they go back to the room to the deliberation room the first thing they do is determine who's going to be the foreperson right who's going to be in charge of the jury okay once they've decided that and you mentioned sometimes that can take an extended period of time i've never been in that situation so i only know what i've been told but once that jury four person is picked do most juries immediately go ahead and hey, let's get a vote out there and find out where we are? Yeah, a lot of times you want to get a read on the jury.

But again, there's no playbook for this. Nobody, unless you've been a four person before, and then you're only basing it on your one or two or three experiences, you know, you haven't read a book on how to be a four person. You know, that's definitely what we hear that people say, let's read the room. And what's interesting to me is, you know, and I teach a class on jury trials at Emory Law School,

and we get to watch the jury deliberate. The student's final exam is a trial, and then you watch the jury deliberate. And it's fascinating because after the trial and you ask the jury, okay, so what do you think? It's like 12 people saw different trials. A lot of times it's like you go to a movie with a friend and you come out and you say, well, didn't you hate that guy? And you say, no, I like that guy.

You know, they all pick up on different things. So sometimes just hurting the cats and getting them to figure out where they're together and where they're apart can take time. So it's really amazing. They seem to be on the same page or get on the same page pretty darn quickly. One thing that I've seen when I hear of a three-hour jury deliberation, my first thought is they all sat through the same thing as you mentioned. And you know, you're going to be using your brain along the way. Regardless of what instructions you're given about anything, all of us have a tendency to judge things as we go through.

And, you know, determining, am I hearing the truth or am I hearing a version of the truth? What am I hearing from this particular person? And once they're packed there, it seems to me like you would have a proof. pretty strong idea of what you think happened at that point. So a jury comes, go ahead. Yeah, you would think that all 12 jurors would come to the same conclusion because they all heard the same thing. People hear things differently.

They see and hear emphasis on things differently, not only the evidence, but even the instructions from the judge they might hear differently. You know, there's those jokes about the people that see the sign out by the beach that says, no swimming aloud. And someone else sees it as, no, swimming aloud. You know, how you hear things, how you see things. how you see things, comes from your history. That's why jury selection is so important.

Do people follow the rules? Is it somebody who's been through a situation like this? Somebody who's going to empathize or sympathize with the defendant or the victim or the judge or the lawyers? You know, the jury vodier, picking the jury should take a lot longer than it typically does. So it's not surprising to me as a trial lawyer, that when you get the juries into the room to deliberate,

they don't always say, yep, we all heard it the same way. I mean, we're not robots. That's why we have a jury system. If it was robotic, if it was AI, if it was artificial intelligence, there'd be calculations, check the box, guilty, period. Now, in this particular case, was there any one thing in the trial that would have had the most impact later on with jurors? And again, only deliberating three hours, they probably all heard everything and made decisions along the way to point them in that direction. And then getting together and agreeing, was there any one thing actually? trial that actually proved the point of the prosecution?

You know, I think it's just a question of that situation, if they saw themselves in that situation, how would they act? And nobody wants to say, oh, I would have stabbed somebody. And nobody would think, oh, I would expect to be stabbed. That, I mean, that's, it's just a set of facts. And every lawyer I've seen comment on this and every show I've seen and every report on it, everyone seems to think it was predetermined that this was a hard, hard, hard case. because you take your body of life and you come into the situation, who could have thought of a different way that it could have been handled? Everybody, right?

You don't walk into someone's tent, you don't start a fight, even if it was provoked, even if it was self-defense, stabbing someone in the heart because they wouldn't let you in their tent, it just, you know, it was a hard one. I don't think there's one factor. I don't think there is, the whole case was sort of an A plus B equal C. He brought a knife to, you know, the joke is he brought a knife to a gunfight. He brought a knife to a track meet.

He brought a knife to practice. So there was some premeditation or some plan that he might have to use it. And then he pulled it out and stabbed somebody. You know, the only way to get around that would be to testify. And, of course, that's always a risk. And he didn't testify in his own defense. But when you say that it's self-defense, I was defending myself, I think the jury's got to see you and hear you and taste you and fail you and believe you

that you really were fearful for your life and that you'd had no other choice. it's hard to have a third party argue, oh, he was defending himself. That's why he stabbed him. That sounds like after the fact, rationale. And it's exactly how it played out in court that it didn't work, the idea that it was self-defense. I made a point a minute ago that outside of the area where this took place in Texas, the race game has been played since day one.

And yet I just, I remember Austin's dad in particular, pointing out, it's never been about race. It is about high school athletes in an area. And if you can just remember back to high school and how important things were, you know, things in high school have a heightened importance in our lives just because we don't have that history to go with to balance things out. And, you know, this is an important part of life in high school. This is my area.

You're not allowed in it. And yes, you brought a knife to attract me. You got to explain that and it wasn't explained. Now, the jury came back with 35 years. 35 years in prison and in the state of Texas, the prisoner has to spend at least half that time before they are eligible for parole. Is that correct? Right.

And it may not be half. It depends on what happens going forward. Is he a model prisoner? Is your role model? Do Bible study and help his fellow inmates? Does he get in trouble? And then the parole board, and this is, you know, people we don't even know who's going to be on the parole board 15, 16, 17 years from now, look at it.

And they decided at the time, not how bad was a crime so much, but what is he likely to do if we let him out of jail? Is he a model person? Is he going to get back in to society? Or we're going to give him a chance? And maybe that's why the jury only gave 35 years to give him that shot at redemption, that shot at getting back in. He's a young man. And hopefully there's good in all of us, and hopefully there's some good in him that's there's some good in him that can come out of this,

and he ends up getting back into society is what the jury, I think, hoped for because if they thought there was absolutely no redeeming qualities, they would have thrown the proverbial book at him, life for 99 years. Which is one of the, there was an option. They could have gone that far, but opted for the 35 years.

The prosecution wanted more, and many people felt like this case deserved a longer sentence. Of course, the defense and many others felt like it deserved less. I guess that's, again, one of those things that you can't determine what's going to happen in the future or what was going through the guy's mind. When the, in this case, where the convicted doesn't take the stand and doesn't say for himself, I really did the wrong thing. I'm really sorry. I should have never done this, XYZ.

Without having that to go on, does that impact the judge? and the judge's ability to pass sentence? Yes, and of course, the jury is the one who sentenced them in this case. And, you know, we're all a composite of our history and our combined experience. You know, who are we to judge, right? And how do we know? And again, from the victim's point of view, there's no sentence that's harsh enough, right? From the victim's family point of view, there's no sense that's harsh enough.

Why does this guy get to go on living when their son didn't get to go on living, when their brother doesn't get to go on living? On the other hand, if you're the state and you line up all the defendants, that you've prosecuted. You have mass murders, you have people that have shot babies, you have people that have done stuff that absolutely deserve a harsher sentence. So is it on that spectrum or do you look at a case by case? It's a case by case situation. It depends on who was on the jury. How do they feel about these sentences? How do they feel about incarceration? How do they feel about punishment? Do they identify with the victims because they have

somebody who was a victim of violence? Do they identify with the defendant because they have somebody who was accused of being a criminal? I mean, it's just a combination of 12 people shared experiences and the result is you know it's like making sausage you put it all in the hopper and it spits out 35 years that was probably some sort of compromise I'm sure there were people on the jury they wanted it to be excuse me want to be a hundred years I'm sure there's someone on the jury that thought 35 years was too much this is the natural result of 12 people coming to a conclusion and they did their conclusion and they got out of the room they did their job this is one

of those unique cases where the lawyers have probably had to prepare as much if not more for the sentencing phase as for the trial phase because they knew there's a strong likelihood. You know when you're a lawyer, whether you have a winner or a loser of a case, and you don't always win the winners, you don't always lose the losers. But generally speaking, if you know there's a strong likelihood that you're going to lose the guilt-innocence phase, you've got to practice and prep for the sentencing phase. And in Texas, it's pretty quick. They turn around and do the sentencing right away. You don't have months like you do in some states to prepare and gather your witnesses. So they've had to prepare for the sensing and the guilt

or innocence phase at the same time. Hindsight's 2020. Hindsight says they should have 15 more witnesses testify as to what a likable person this was and it had to be something that he's regretful and that he will turn it around and give him some time. I'm sure everybody second-guessing it now on the defense side. But that's my only comment is it,

what a heavy burden for the defense and their team to get ready for a guilt innocence and to simultaneously be thinking, well, how do I defend him if he's, found guilty because you want to start off hoping he's not going to be found guilty. He won't have to get there. But our job is to prepare for the worst. The worst was a guilty plea, I mean a guilty verdict, and then you got to move into your next job, which is a whole other trial pretty much, which might even be more important than

the guilt or innocence, which is how much of a penalty is he going to pay? Tough position for the lawyers, tough position for the families, but of course the victims are the ones we have to think about and hopefully they're feeling like they got justice. And his brother was holding him trying to hold the blood in. And he passed my son, watched his brother die in his arms. During a track meet between Memorial High School and Centennial High School in Frisco, Texas, a light rain begins to fall and athletes take cover under tents with their respective teams at Kukendal Stadium. Memorial High School athlete Austin Metcalf finds Centennial High School athlete Carmelo Anthony under the Memorial High School tent.

and tells him he needs to move from under his team's tent. When Anthony refuses, words are exchanged, and Anthony tells Metcalf, touch me and see what happens. He first heard from the victim's father, that from our friends at Fox 4, joining us an all-star panel to make sense of a senseless and brutal stabbing. I cannot get the image out of my mind of this star athlete, bleeding out dead as his twin brother,

to stop the bleeding, holding him in his arms. You know, I've been to plenty of high school track events. My son has been involved and tracked from the get-go. And I can't even imagine a fatal stabbing over a seat and a tent. Straight out to special guests joining us, Katie Barber, senior digital content, at my san Antonio.com. Katie, thank you for being with us. What do we believe happened

that led up to the horrible stabbing death of this young star athlete literally scrubbed in sunshine? And why did the suspect have a knife at a track meet? It's really not clear why he had a knife

at the track meet on April 2nd, but unfortunately he did. One witness told police that they were sitting with Metcalf under their school tent when someone they didn't know now identified as Carmelo Anthony came over to them. And he is allegedly, when I grabbed the bag when he was confronted and reached inside and said, touch me and see what happens. Okay, whoa, whoa, wait, hold on. Katie Barber joining me from my san Antonio.com. Who said what? Who sat down where? Who said what? And who said touch me and see what happens?

Give me proper names. One witness told an officer that they were sitting with Metcalf under the school's tent when Carmelo Anthony came over to them while they were in the tent. The witness said Metcalf told Anthony to leave the tent. And when he did that, Anthony grabbed his bag, opened it, reached inside and said, touch me and see what happens. And then police said in their doctor that no one believed that he had a weapon at the time. Okay. If we have the facts correct, the suspect stabbed an unarmed teen boy.

But yet I'm hearing that the suspect has walked free. I am also learning that it was urged in court that the suspect has no criminal history. He's a juvenile. Listen to this. Anthony's father was questioned about an incident involving his son that happened at Carmelo's high school in February. The Daily Mail refers to the incident as an altercation assault, but as the situation was handled internally by the Frisco Independent School District, it is unclear if Anthony was the aggressor or merely a witness to the incident or even what type of incident occurred. And his brother was holding him trying to hold the blood in, and he passed my son.

watched his brother die in his arms. That's from our friends at Fox 4, Dallas-Fort Worth News. Okay, let me understand this. Straight out to trial lawyer, Lisa Herrick, partner at Varjee, Somerset, and former juvenile prosecutor. Lisa, thank you for being with us. When I can't get a straight answer, that makes me think that there is subterfuge.

So if the suspect, who is the admitted stabber, of an unarmed teen at a high school track meet. When the Stabbers camp is asked about an incident involving an assault at the school, and I can't get a straight answer, it tells me that somebody is covering. Because if the suspect was just a witness to an assault or a good Samaritan or the champion that's, you know, stopped the whole thing, we would have heard that, wouldn't we? I mean, they're trying to get bond. They did get bond. So what is this prior incident? And does it concern you that when the suspect's father is questioned about this as he's urging his son's good

character, we don't get a straight answer? Well, what I would want to know is were any criminal charges brought because of it and or was Carmelo suspended or expelled or did he have any sort of school disciplinary action as a result of it? Because if neither of those things are true, it does make me believe that he probably wasn't the aggressor. Criminal charges don't necessarily have to be brought due to a fight at school, but schools are very likely to have some sort of disciplinary action because of a fight at school, especially if it was one-sided, especially for a person who was an aggressor. I mean, it disturbs me that someone is asking for a reduced bond to walk free after stabbing an unarmed teen dead,

and then not coming clean about what happened at a prior school incident. I mean, the father, Carmelo Anthony's father, was questioned about the incident involving his son at Anthony's high school. So why am I not getting a straight answer? Dave Mack, that changes everything. if there was a prior assault by Carmela Anthony on another. Think it through Dave Mack for Pete's sake. This would be a similar transaction if it's true because Anthony would be attacking another high schooler.

I'd like to find out if that victim was armed or unarmed. I'd like to find out if Anthony was armed or unarmed. The extent of the attack, did it rise to an aggravated assault with fists or feet? I don't know. do we know anything or was that completely glossed over in the bond hearing we don't have an answer right it was completely glossed over in the hearing nancy the question was what happened and the answer was nothing it was like a tap dance we cannot find out any information because it was handled by the school district by their own investigation and that's the only thing we know happened at school

they covered, I didn't want to say covered up, they said they dealt with it and that was the end of it. Dad didn't volunteer any information whatsoever about his son. I'll be honest, as a dad, if my son was accused of doing something and in this particular case he hadn't, I would have been screaming, absolutely, here's what happened. And I would tell you the whole story right then. I wouldn't just walk away like I needed an umbrella to get out of the sun. I was able to see my son, own the gurney, with a show. huge hole and blood all over him and they were pumping him. He wasn't breathing and his eyes were rolled back in his head. Centennial High School's Carmelho Anthony reaches inside his bag,

grabs a knife and stabs Austin Metcalfe in the chest underneath the Memorial High School pop-up tent and then he runs away. As Metcalf's twin brother, Hunter, comes to his brother's aid, witnesses point out Anthony to a nearby middle school resource officer who chases the suspect down. At first you were hearing Austin's father speaking to our friends at Fox for the family devastated. I cannot even imagine what it would be like for the father to see this, much less the twin brother holding Austin in his arms trying to stop the blood. I wouldn't have understood it if I didn't have twins of my own. They're practically joined at the hip. And mine are boy-girl, much less boy-boy or girl-girl that play all their sports together that do every together. Having your twin bleed out dead in your arms. Let me go straight out to a special guest joining us. Also, like Lisa Herrick, joining us from this jurisdiction, Dr. Kimball Crowns with us Chief Medical Examiner, Territ County. That's Fort Worth. Never like a business

in that morgue. Um, esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine. at TCU, Texas Christian University, and launching a brand new podcast, Mayhem in the Morg, April 14. Dr. Kendall Crowns, I know you've studied the case very carefully. Was there a way his twin brother could have saved Austin? No, there wouldn't have been. Because the stab wound was in the heart, unless he could be gotten to an emergency room, like immediately.

and they may have been able to save him, but more likely than not, he was going to die anyway. That type of injury to the heart, there's just really no coming back unless you're basically in the OR when you get stabbed. Explain why. Because it's your heart. It's, you know, it's all your blood's coming through there. It's all being pumped out. And then when you have an hole in your heart, it's bleeding into your chest cavity. And you have to close that hole up in the heart.

so you'd have to crack the chest open, get in there and try and fix the heart. And there's just so much blood loss because of the size of the hole, it's near impossible to save that individual. And just putting pressure on it at the scene, all that's going to create is they're just going to bleed into their chest cavity. I'm just thinking about what you're saying, Dr. Kendall Crowns, because Katie Barber, was Austin stabbed in the heart? The arrest document states he was stabbed in the chest.

Interesting. I wonder how close to the heart he was stabbed. So, okay, Dr. Kulham Krause, let's digest that. Not stabbed in the heart, stabbed in the chest. Does that make a difference in your analysis? So it depends on where exactly in the chest. You go up, but if you're kind of in the midline or to the left, that's going to be the the heart. You go up a little higher. It's the aorta, which is the main vessel coming off the heart. You're going to bleed out again and just a matter of minutes from that as well. There's no saving

them at the scene. You go to a little to the side one way or another. You've punctured the chest, punctured the lung, and that'll cause a collapsed lung. That causes a lot of hemorrhage. That one, you may be able to save the person if you can get him to the hospital fast enough. But from all the information I've seen, it doesn't sound like it got stabbed in the chest in the area of a lung. It's more probably centralized, hitting them in the heart. So, Dr. Kendall Crowns, if I were explaining this to a jury, I would take everything that you just said and paraphrase it in openings and closings. And I would repeat it in practically every one of my questions that I asked you on the stand in, of course, a shortened way. but you're saying there's no way twin brother Hunter could have saved Austin

because even if Hunter could have pushed down where Austin was bleeding and so it would look like to the naked eye that he had stopped the bleeding the bleeding would still be happening underneath the skin and the blood would then be pumping straight into the lungs so he would die on his own blood in his lungs. I mean, there was no way he could have saved him. Are you sure? Do you feel confident in that?

Yes, I feel very confident in that. If he puts his hand on his chest and he continues bleeding into his chest cavity, it's going to fill up his chest cavity and it's going to make it hard for him to breathe then he'll basically die from the lack of oxygen. That actually takes longer from the descriptions I've read from the scene. He kind of dies in a matter of minutes.

To me, that sounds like a major vessel was hit or the heart, and he was going to die no matter what was done. 17-year-old Austin Metcalf is being held by his twin brother, Hunter, who is trying to stop the bleeding after 17-year-old Carmelo Anthony allegedly stabs Austin in the chest, piercing his heart. First responders arrive and take over treatment of Austin, as officers round of eyewitnesses to the event to find out what happened. Hunter Metcalf is so distraught he can barely speak to police,

but officers locate about two dozen student athletes and four coaches who witness the stabbing and begin taking statements. Pride is like love. You feel it in your heart. IR Radio, Canada's number one streaming app for radio and podcasts, including IHart Pride Canada, your favorite hits and must-have party bangers, plus personalized and curated playlists like back in the day pride come together celebrate love take pride with you anytime anywhere just ask your smart speaker to play iHeart pride Canada stream us on your phone or listen now at iHeartRadio.ca crime stories with nancy grace

A school resource officer is first on the scene and confronts carmello anthony telling the suspect to put his hand up in the air. Anthony tells the officer, I was protecting myself, claiming Metcalf, quote, put his hands on him. Anthony, here's the officer saying he has the alleged stabbing suspect in custody. And Anthony replies, I'm not alleged. I did it. Wow, I'm not alleged. I did it. Joining me now, in addition to our other guest, Barry Hutchinson, renowned law enforcement vet of 26 years, detective, now chief operator of Barry and Associates Investigative Services. Barry, thank you for being with us.

Did you hear what the suspect said? And I quote, I was protecting myself that Austin, quote, put his hands on me, and that would be suspect Carmelo Anthony. Austin put his hands on Carmelo Anthony. According to Anthony, Anthony, here's the school resource officer say

he has the alleged stabbing suspect and responds, I'm not alleged, I did it. Yeah, that's a pretty damning utterance from an evidentiary value. And, you know, he pretty much admitted to the crime by making that statement. Okay, Barry. Barry, I know that.

I just read you what he said. I'm asking you what the state is going to do to prove that and what the defense is going to do to try to get away from it. Well, the witnesses are going to contradict what he says anyway. And, you know, there's 12 of those folks, apparently, or more. And they're going to make a statement that contradicts what he says. It's pretty much going to outweigh what he says.

The state's going to move forward with prosecution from that point. His defense is going to be that it's, you know, what he said originally, that it was self-defense that he, you know, was in fear of his life, which it's going to be awful hard to substantiate that, as you addressed earlier, without the threat of equal violence, to substantiate him using deadly force. That is from our friends at Fox 4, Dallas Fort Worth News.

To Katie Barber joining me, my San Antonio.com, what happened at the bond hearing? His attorney was asked about the knife, and he refused to answer a question about it. He said, he just said for unknown reasons, Carmelow brought the knife to the school. But, and the district attorney also acknowledged that it was for unknown reasons. So they're not prepared to go into that conversation, but it seems to be the most pressing comment, or most pressing detail about the case right now.

Okay, who asked who about why the knife was brought to the trackmate? Howard's attorney was asked by the media after the hearing about this. And he just said it would be irresponsible for me or them to say why he brought the knife and they're asking the public to withhold. Okay, so hold on, Katie Barber. Let me understand. I asked you what happened at the bond hearing. And you told me something that happened outside the bond hearing, but I want to follow up on that.

You're telling me that Carmelo Anthony's lawyer was asked why Anthony brought a knife to the track meet. Do I have it right so far, Katie Barber? Yeah, he was asked why he brought the knife. Right. Got it. Yes, got it. I got it the first time. So hold on right there.

Lisa Herrick, veteran trial lawyer who has handled cases in Juvi, juvenile juvenile justice. So the lawyer wouldn't answer why Anthony brought a knife to a track meet. Here's my question. I'm sure you're familiar with implicit intent to commit a crime. Are you not? Yes. For instance, if I say, okay, Lisa Herrick, I've got a gun. It's loaded. And now I'm going to kill you, bam. That's explicit. It's stated, and the law recognizes that. But there is also implicit intent. For instance, if I reach into my gym bag and take out a knife and shove it into your heart, I don't have to say, Lisa, now I'm going to stab you dead. It's implicitly proven by my actions. I don't have to announce them. This is the problem Carmelo Anthony's

lawyers are going to have. Implicit and explicit intent are equal in the eyes of lady justice. Under the law, they carry equal weight. Him bringing a knife and then using it to stab someone dead is implicit intent to commit a crime. That's why the lawyer wouldn't answer that question, Lisa Herrick. I think that's possibly why he wouldn't answer. I also would like to know what kind of knife it was. If we're talking about a large hunting knife, there's probably no reason why he should be carrying that. Maybe there is, and his attorneys just don't feel like disclosing that at this point, but if it's a small pocket knife or like a Swiss Army knife, maybe he carries that for other reasons. Maybe he just happened to have it in his backpack and used it for self-defense. We don't

know what kind of knife it was at this point, or at least I don't know. And I think that that makes a difference. I think that matters. You know what? I think you're right, Lisa Herrick. I think you're absolutely right. If it's a penknife or a folding knife, yeah, a lot of guys may carry those around. You're absolutely right. So the type of knife is going to be very important. It's my understanding. It's a fixed blade. I don't know that. In other words, not a knife that you fold out. It's a knife with a blade attached and it's not foldable. But we'll find out. That's a really good point. You know, isn't it interesting Lisa Herrick, how one small fact can change the terrain, the topography of a case? Because if he shows up, like a knife, for instance,

out of the Brian Koberger case, a fixed blade army knife, right? A military-style knife with a sheath. That's much more menacing and much more of an implicit threat to commit a crime as opposed to a foldable pin knife. You're absolutely right. I want to get back to the bond hearing. I want to find out why the known, the admitted stabber of an unarmed boy at a track meet for Pete's sake, a high school track meet has walked free. Listen to this. Just before his bond hearing, Carmelo Anthony's family retains Mike Howard, a Dallas criminal defense attorney. The change of attorney is announced by the Next Generation Action Network, a nonprofit that is supporting Carmelo Anthony. Howard represents Anthony in court as the defense seeks to have bond for Anthony.

lowered from $1 million to $150,000. Prosecutors questioned Andrew Anthony, the father of the accused, why Carmelo Anthony should have his bond reduced when the family has already raised over $400,000 from a crowdfunding site. Lisa here joining me, veteran trial lawyer in this jurisdiction. Lisa, explain again, in a nutshell, what is now emerging as the defense. And you know what?

I haven't even gotten to these sick conspiracy theories that are multiplying, promulgating online. Get to that in a moment, but I pray that Austin's parents have not seen what is being said online. It's total BS technical legal term. But Lisa, in a nutshell, in regular people talk, do not throw a Latin phrase at me, Lisa, Herrick, and I know that you can, stand your ground.

How in the hay, is that going to apply here? We normally think of it as, let's just say, somebody tries to break in your house. You don't have to run. You can shoot them right then and there if you're so disposed. Standing your ground. You're in a place you're supposed to be.

You have authority to be there and no one can make you leave. Now, explain how that's going to work in a high school track tent. Right. Stand your ground. We commonly use the phrase no duty to retreat. So some places will, like some jurisdictions, will require that you attempt to remove yourself from the danger.

That's not the case in Texas. In Texas, if you're presented with a threat, with a danger, you have the right to defend yourself. And stand your ground means you don't have to try to leave the danger first. Well, I'm reading the supplemental arrest report, and the narrative is written by Officer Eduardo Cortez. Cortez states, Suspect was on the track at the north end. There was a chain link that separated Officer Cortez from the suspect. Cortez gives the suspect instructions to keep his hands in the air.

And at this time, suspect verbally said out loud, and this is considered a voluntary statement. quote, I was protecting myself. Cortez goes on to note he had not questioned the suspect about the incident, but suspect blurted that out. Then stated while walking him off the track, suspect states, quote, he put his hands on me. Katie Barber joining me, senior digital content producer at my san Antonio.com. my understanding from having read the police reports and the witness statements is that the suspect goes under the other side's tent, right, the other school's tent. At that point, Austin says,

this isn't your tent, get out of here. At that point, at that point, what does the suspect do? police says that when he's told to move out of the tent that he grabbed his bag opened it and reached inside and this is when he tells austin touch me and see what happens according to police so naturally austin touched him yeah exactly police say that he proceeded to touch carmello and then carmello then postures and tells anthony and tells austin to punch him and see what happens A short time later, police don't say how long. But to your understanding, Katie Barber, were any punches thrown? Did Austin ever hit the suspect?

It hit. It doesn't say, it says he grabbed Anthony after that threat to tell him to move, but it doesn't, but police do not say witnesses did not tell police that he was punched. But when he was grabbed by Austin is when he pulled out the knife and stabbed him once in the chest. is what police say. Our witness reported. A police escort Carmelo Anthony to a squad car. Anthony says, he put his hands on me. I told him not to. Anthony also asks officers if the victim was going to be okay. And if what happened could be considered self-defense. Officers take evidence photos showing blood on Anthony's hands, but don't find the knife on him. Pride is like love. You feel it in your heart. IR. Radio. Canada's number one streaming app

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the blood evidence in this case. With conflicting witness reports, with the suspect claiming self-defense and stand your ground, although no punches were seen thrown, that blood evidence becomes critical. Remember, it was raining. The track meet is outside. Listen. As law enforcement and paramedics arrive on scene, the rain is falling harder. One officer moves the memorial tent over the victim and trying to save his life. And finding the bloody knife in the stands quickly takes photos of it before the rain could wash away all the blood. A blue tarp is used to cover the knife in an effort to preserve the evidence. And because it was so windy, the officer uses a nearby backpack to weigh down the tarp. He doesn't realize at the time the backpack belongs to suspect Carmelo

Anthony. Photo. No, juries don't want just a photo. They want DNA. deoxyibot nucleic acid straight out to, we're now in medical examiner, Dr. Kendall Crowns, joining us from this jurisdiction of Texas. Dr. Kendall Crowns, what we believe to be the murder weapon, a knife covered in blood, had been thrown or obscured,

let me just say euphemistically, and it was pouring rain. What's the likelihood that we can get DNA, off that knife because the state needs the suspect's DNA and the victim's DNA off that knife. Well, they should probably still be able to get DNA from it unless it was scrubbed clean with a cleanser or a soap of something of that nature. There's probably still enough DNA on the handle and on the knife itself to be able to get a good DNA sample. Also, you have to figure, because of the

contact between the two boys, there's probably a way of getting DNA from the victim as well. Katie, Barbara, where exactly was the knife discovered? It was discovered in the bleachers on the north side of the stadium, which is where the hay did he get in the bleachers, Katie? He ran off after the stabbing. It didn't quite say a total direction, but he did run off, and it's presumed that he threw the knife when he ran off because he didn't have the weapon on him when he was

detained. Wait a minute right there. at Katie Barber, my san Antonio.com to Dr. John Deloori, if someone attacked me and I fought back, I wouldn't take off running and then hide the weapon, thoughts. Yeah, you wouldn't. But here's the thing is that if Anthony saw a bunch of other people, dozens of other people that were also around and in that tent, he might have felt overwhelmed, he might have felt scared. He could have done all of these things just as a matter of panic. So he runs off knowing that

he shouldn't have stabbed this person, but he did it anyway. He throws a knife away. He takes off, thinking that he's going to get very far. There's all kinds of things that could be happening because it does not appear as though he intended to go to that track meet with the specific purpose to kill Austin Metcath. It does seem like things were going on underneath that tent that neither one of these two boys were prepared for, and both are now suffering the consequences with Austin having lost his life for some kind of nonsense. Lisa Herrick, you see where this is going. The state is going to argue to a jury. He ran off and disposed of the weapon because he knew what he did was wrong, and then immediately began forming a defense in his mind and even asked

law enforcement, hey, could that be self-defense? You think that's self-defense? There are a couple of things that cut in favor of the self-defense argument, and those are that he did run away if he was scared, and he, so he stabs. What? Why? Put her up.

Scared? Isn't he the one that said, touch me and find out? Right. Isn't he the one that say, go on, punch me. Just see what happens. That doesn't sound scared to me. I don't disagree with. you, but getting into his mind for a moment and the argument that the defense is going to make,

right, they have to come up with something. Why do I have to get in his mind? So if he'll say, I was scared, I stabbed him, I felt like the danger was subdued enough that I could now safely escape, then I can see how running away would cut in favor of self-defense. I can see what you're saying, how running away is a sign of guilt. You just said. Have you ever heard the phrase word salad because I just heard one. Okay, wait a minute. What did you say about the threat was subdued? You mean he stabbed Austin in the chest? Is that what you're talking about? So if the threat is subdued, why run then? Because there were plenty of other people around who were potentially new dangers, right? People who saw him stop. No, I don't know what you're saying. You're making that up, like a good defense

attorney. What other people presented a danger? Nobody. What is Are you serious? Well, I mean... So he stabs Austin dead and then he, what, is in danger of what? Retribution. People who want to hurt him now that Carmelow hurt their friend.

Okay, guys, she's spinning this out, Lisa Herrick. That's why she wins cases. She's spinning like Rumpelstiltskin. She's trying to take hay and spin it into gold. Centennial high school's Carmelo Anthony reaches inside his bag, grabs a knife, and stabs Austin Metcalfe in the chest underneath the Memorial High School pop-bunk tent, and then he runs away. As Metcalf's twin brother, Hunter, comes to his brother's aide, witnesses point out Anthony to a nearby middle school resource officer who chases the suspect down. First, I froze for half a second. I didn't know what to do. And then I saw him how to fall. I would go over there. I'm grabbing. I'm asking.

This stuff. You're just saying Austin's twin brother and his mother with our friend at the Will Kane show over on Fox. Joining me an all-star panel. Making sense of the fact that a stabber

killed an unarmed high school track star and has walked free. I've heard from the Bond hearing about how the stabbers family needs to, quote, survive, how they need more money in addition to the nearly half a million dollars they have raised online. But Dave Mack, I've heard very little about what the victim's

family has endured on top of their son being murdered with his twin brother trying to stop the flow of blood. In addition to that, we now know there have been attacks on the victim's family and the victim, Austin Metcalf's mother's home, was swatted. What happened? Nancy, it's almost like a media blackout when it comes to the victim's family. At 8 o'clock at night, SWAT, they get a 911 phone call giving the address of Austin Metcalf's mother and saying somebody has been shot in the mouth. and this person stays on the phone for an extended period of time until SWAT can get out to the residence,

they surround it, they build up on the whole blue shield around the home. They're trying to get enticed with Austin's mother, Megan, and they can't get her on the phone. Well, her phone isn't working right now. Swat didn't know if she had been killed. They didn't know if there were people inside the house. They sent a drone inside this house that has been. swatted Nancy to go through every little thing. And of course, they didn't find anybody in there and they were able to clear the home. This is how this family is mourning, going through police

coming and thinking they're being held against their will and being trashed. Okay, let me understand, Dave Mack, you're talking about Austin Metcalfe, the dead boy, his family, his mother's home was swatted. Someone calls police and a night. anonymous tipster and says a victim has been shot in the mouth inside the home. You have that 100% correct. You know, maybe I'm projecting, but I recall when my fiancee was murdered. I couldn't even think straight. I could barely form words.

I felt like just howling, like an animal. And this is a mother, a mother whose son, a twin, has been stabbed dead who bled out in the rain at a track meet. and someone swats her home? I don't understand. Douglas Griffin joining me, senior police officer, president of the Houston Police Officers Union. That's saying a lot. 29 years on the Gang Task Force. You've seen it all.

Douglas Griffin, how is it that the victim's family has somehow become the bad guys in this scenario? I really don't understand it. There's so many questions to this case that you sit there and look at it and go, how did this happen? You have an individual that goes to the wrong tent, not even his school. To me, it's almost like he intended to start something somewhere in there. Then on top of that, where are all the coaches and the teachers and the staff? These track bent events, they are, there's people everywhere.

And for this to end up the way it did is just a tragedy, and it should never have happened. And I'm still donefounded by the fact that he was able to get a knife into a school facility like that, and why would you have it in the first place? So there's a lot of questions here that we have to answer. We have to look at the way the school is set up, the way the tents were set up, and why it was so easy for him to pull a knife from a bag. and stab a student like that. You know, you brought up a really good point,

and I haven't thought this aspect through. And that is why Douglas Griffin, I would spend so much time with my investigator earnest and go over and over all the facts. I guess I knew it, but it's staring me straight in the face. He, Carmelo Anthony, the stabber, the confessed stabber. If he hadn't confessed to it, and by the way, I believe it's been caught on video,

which I'm getting to, he's not alleged. He confessed to it. All right. He walks into the tent during a track mate, carrying his bag with a knife in it. He, it's very clear. I mean, we've all been to high school football games and track events. It was lightly raining, so they have a tent. It's very clear whose tent is whose. There's the colors of the school on the tent. There's all the teammates from that school under the tent. They're all wearing their uniforms from that school. It may even have the school's name on the tent.

So Carmelo Anthony, the stabber, walks into the tent with a concealed knife. Why? Just as you said, why would you go into the tent? the other side's tent with a knife if you were not looking for trouble. To Lisa Herrick joining us, veteran juvenile attorney, partner at Vargy Somerset. Former, this is important, former juvenile prosecutor. Lisa, thank you for being with us. Thank you, Nancy. That's enough time to form premeditation. Right there. Now, I know that. you defend juveniles after having been a juvenile prosecutor, but the reality is under the black

and white letter of the law, okay? Premeditation, the intent to kill or the intent to commit any act can be formed in the blink of an eye, the twinkling of a moment, the time it takes you to raise a gun and pull the trigger. The law does not require a long, drawn-out period for pre-meditation or planning mens rea, mens rea, malice, Malice of forethought. For instance, a long drawn-out period of poisoning someone every single day, just a tiny bit of arsenic, and then they die. It can be formed just like that. Why do I care? Because premeditation or malice of forethought, mens rea, is a key factor, the critical ingredient in a murder one prosecution, isn't it?

Absolutely. Intent is one of the main elements of a murder. or an assault, an aggravated assault with a deadly weapon that turns into a murder, because in Texas, we have a number of different ways that murder can be committed or the language for murder can be alleged, one of which can be that you intend for a person to die, but another can be that your actions, your intentional or knowing actions are such that you would know that a person would die. So stabbing someone in the heart, you would certainly know that a person would. person would die if you stab someone in the heart. And that knowledge or that intent, like you said,

can't afford to justice. Lisa, Herrick joining me, a veteran trial lawyer. Lisa, you're absolutely correct. And I've got a great example because what I speak to juries very often or really anybody. And I can't tell, I can't state that this was my idea. I got it from someone in the New Testament. I like to give examples, okay, stories. For instance, if I take a gun and point it right over, at my executive producer right here, Jackie, and pull the trigger and then say, oh, what? I just meant to scare her. I didn't mean to kill her. The law presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act. You don't have to say, I will now kill you. Bam, the law presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act.

So, when you take the time to go to your duffel bag, your athletic bag, unzip it, get out a knife, and then stab someone, and then we have the previous threat. Touch me, touch me and see what's going to happen. All of that adds together to make a premeditated murder case. Now, you've not only prosecuted juvenile cases, felonies, which is a whole other animal prosecuting in juvenile court, Juvie Court, GV court versus big court. What's your defense in this case, Lisa? What would your defense possibly be? Is it true that a stand your ground defense is brewing?

How can that percolate? That didn't happen. A stand your ground defense is hard in this fact situation because stand your ground law presumes that the victim is somewhere that they are not supposed to be. You're defending your space. stand your ground law applies and certainly Austin was in a place where he was allowed to be. Now I think Carmelo probably was allowed to be where he was as well. It's a public place, right? But in order to to claim stand your ground and in order to use that as your defense,

you have to be defending your space. And so I know Carmelo is saying that Austin put hands on him, but deadly force is self-defense theory that is supposed to be used, deadly force meets deadly force. Self-defense is not a legal mechanism. Okay, put it back up. Lisa, again, you're absolutely correct regarding the letter of the law. I like to use this example. You can't slap me and then I shoot you down with an oozy. Okay? It's, for instance, I can't battle back against your fly swatter with a machine gun. So you said it, deadly force equals deadly force. force. But here, isn't it true that Austin Metcalf was unarmed? So to introduce a deadly weapon,

that's deadly force versus no force. Correct. And even more so, self-defense without a deadly weapon, regular self-defense is not a justifiable defense to use against words alone. The law says that words are not sufficient provocation to use self-defense. To Katie Barbara joining me, uh, content producer at my san antonio.com. Was the track event still ongoing? I take it that it was since so many guys were still under the tent? At the time of the stabbing, it was a rain delay. So everybody had taken a beat and they were waiting for the rain delay to be over when the fight first began. So simply, that's a yes. The event was still ongoing. What does that mean to me?

That means to me that there are going to be a lot of witnesses and everybody waiting for the rain delay to end were all huddled under that tent. There was no way that Anthony did not know he was going in the wrong tent. No way with a knife. I just wanted to clarify that. It's not like the track meet was over and everybody, was gone and the only one sitting under there was Austin Metcalf and that somehow he, Carmelo Anthony didn't know where he was going. No, he went into the other side's tent with a

knife. Okay, Dave Mack, you mentioned that Austin's mother's home was swatted with someone saying someone had been shot in the mouth in the home. So police swarm the place. What about threats on Austin's father? He has been getting threats since this first began by text messages, by phone calls. Nancy, this grieving father had a person show up at his house banging on the door, and he had to call police. He is under attack online, on everywhere you can imagine. And again, the scariest thing I can think of is somebody you don't know showing up at your address knowing who you are. And that happened to them.

I don't even know how you go to sleep at night knowing that people can find you. And they're going to, they're verbally violent towards you. And you're the victim. I just don't understand how this has gotten so bass backwards. Neither family is the bad guy. Carmelo Anthony's family, not the bad guy. The victim's family, certainly not the bad guy. So how has the victim's family turned into the scapegoat here?

Why is the mom's house getting swatted? Why is the dad getting threats? People showing up, bamming on his door. They have put their son in the ground. They have been to his funeral. I can't even imagine anything worse than that. I want you to listen to the dad, Jeff Metcalfe with Fox 4. And his brother was holding him trying to hold the blood in,

and he passed my son, watched his brother die in his arms. The father, Jeff Metcalfe, describing the moment his son Austin was stabbed dead at a high school track meet that from our friends at Fox 4. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.