Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'Kayak killer' demands victim's life insurance payout; police finally identify dead child found in Cleveland backyard

Episode Date: January 26, 2018

Angelika Graswald, who was convicted of criminally negligent homicide in the drowning death of her fiancé Vincent Viafore, is now demanding a his $491,000 accidental death insurance payoff. Nancy Grace explores the case with reporter David Hopkins, lawyer Ashley Willcott, psychologist Caryn Stark, and forensics expert Karen Smith in this episode. Cleveland investigators have resolved -- at least partially -- the mystery of a child's remains found in the backyard of an abandoned house. The boy has been identified as 4-year-old Eliazar Ruiz. Syndicated radio host David Mack reports. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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plus indicator chips to see how Super Beets works for you. And free shipping, 800-516-0683 or go to nancysbeats.com today. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. I don't know if there's an emergency. My fiance found me in the water. Can you please call anybody? Oh, how we love to be in love. Isn't it awesome? I mean, it's euphoric. But then you end up dead at the bottom of the Hudson River.

Okay, how did that happen? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I'm talking about none other than Angelica Griswold. She was sent to marry her true love, Vincent Villafore. They had been living together. Everything looked great. They had all the same interests. They apparently had a very, very exciting, let me just say, sex life. There's really no good way to put that.

And then everything goes sideways. One of the interests that they shared was kayaking. But then this. Take a listen to this 911 call. Tell me exactly what happened. We are kayaking. My fiance lives over. He's in the water right now.

Does he have a life vest on? Yeah, he has something that he's holding on to, but it's getting very bad. I don't see him anymore. All right, Angel anymore. Angelica? Angelica, can you hear me? Angelica, are you still with me? Okay, Angelica, can you hear me? Hello?

Angelica? Can you hear me? Hello? Hi, can you hear me? Hi, can you hear me now? I can hear you. Okay. Did he have, okay. All right. We've got help on the way.

Okay. Did he have a life jacket on when he flipped over? He had a little, like a floating thing. He didn't have a vest. It wasn't a vest, but he had something to hold. He had something that helped him float. But I don't see him. Oh my god. Can you make your way over towards the Cornwall Yacht

Club where you see all the lights? Yes. Yeah, start paddling over towards the Cornwall Yacht Club where you see all the lights? Yes. Yes, start paddling over towards that way, okay? I'm not worried about myself. I'm worried about you. No, I understand. I understand. Okay, I'm going to put you down a little bit. Yeah, that's fine. Put me down. Just keep the phone on. I see the boat. You see the boat now. Good. Well, you can put the phone down. Just keep it open. Don't hang up on me, okay? Okay. Okay. It was a Sunday evening, and even though it was warm outside, of course, for upstate New York,

still the water was cold and dark in the choppy Hudson River. Joining me right now, David Hopkinskins crime stories investigative reporter david hopkins tell me what happened the evening early evening still daylight hours on that sunday afternoon when vincent via foret goes to the bottom of the hudson river well actually they were heading back to the mainland from uh from bannerman island and the wind had started to pick up, as I understood, it was going on seven o'clock or so. And the way it was laid out was the wind was picking up, they were gusting up to 16 miles an hour. The waves were at three to five feet, they were fighting against strong currents there. And apparently water began to go into the cockpit area of Vince's kayak. And before too long, he was, again, like you said,

the currents were allowing him to further and further away. And he capsized. And with temperatures at 47, 46 degrees Fahrenheit, that is borderline frigid. And it doesn't take long for your body to start to succumb. So that's where the 911 call picks up. Well, as a matter of fact, to Karen Smith joining me, a renowned forensics expert. Karen, you and I have performed many, many experiments together, scientific experiments, but how quickly does your body reach the ambient temperature of the water?

The water was much colder than the air. You know what? Your body is going to succumb very quickly. You don't radiate body heat in water. It's not an insulating instrument. It's going to disperse your body heat very, very quickly. And 40, 45 degree water, you have only a few minutes to get out of that water before you go into hypothermia and you succumb to it you lose your breath and you're going to drown well i'm i'm projecting because i've dived many many times hundreds of times literally before the twins were born then i hung up my wetsuit because I thought it might be too dangerous and we would go diving in cool water but I would always wear you know long sleeve long pant long legs wetsuit so I'm not sure what the euphoria was wearing but I know this you can't stay in

water that cold for long now according to someone in the know they say and i'm referring to jeff shack the commodore at the cornwall yacht club in the hudson valley that's off the hudson river it was about 7 30 by the time he gets a phone call that there was a situation the capsizing of a kayak he says the water was choppy, three to four foot swells. I know it's a river, but if you're familiar at all with the Hudson River at that particular spot at Bannerman Island, and there's an old castle. The Bannerman Island is just nothing more than enough dirt, enough land out in the middle of the Hudson to build kind of an old, old castle on. And then there's not a lot of land around it.

It's just a tourist destination to boat up there or go out there. And you'll see people looking around the ruins of that old structure. But it's very choppy and cold out there. I've been out there many many times immediately help was called now by then isn't it true to david hopkins crime stories investigative reporter she angelica greswold was also in the water not only was vinuore, who was in a separate kayak, he had been swallowed up by the river, but she was now in the water, too. She had had her own accident. Is that right, David Hopkins?

Yes, she did, as a matter of fact. Apparently, as the story unfolded, she was trying to get closer and closer to the capsized boat with Vince, And then she too was overcome and was in the water herself. Before we go any further, who is Angelica Graswald, also Angelica Lipska? She's from Latvia when it was still part of the Soviet Union. Now, as soon as the Iron Curtain was lifted, she was looking for opportunity. She got a nanny job in the U.S., and by the time she meets Vincent Villafore, she had been married and divorced twice, but so had he. Now, according to people that know them and relatives, it was, quote, love at first sight. Vincent Villafore was 11 years older than her with a great job, a project manager with the New York State. What happened next?

Apparently, they were very happy together. Karen Stark, renowned psychologist, joining me out of New York. They had the perfect relationship, Karen. What was it like for her to see her groom-to-be disappear under the choppy waters of the Hudson River? Well, you would think, Nancy, that it was devastating, and she does say that it was a tragic accident. Well, this guy was known for barbecuing ribs, dance moves, and being a party guy when he wasn't working hard. Never known to cheat, gamble, booze it up, nothing like that. Apparently the two very, very happy until suddenly things went sideways.

Back to David Hopkins' Crime Stories investigative reporter. She was brought in for questioning. What, if anything, did we learn? Well, she actually began to talk a little bit about the kayak itself, about leaving the plug off of the kayak. Whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. What did you say about the plug coming out of the kayak? Well, yeah, there was a plug. It's called the drain plug. And they were talking about that.

Apparently, she had removed the drain plug from the kayak before they actually left the mainland to begin the trip. He's right. David Hopkins is right. Angelica Graswell admits she sabotaged Vincent's kayak before he drowned. New York State Police investigators say this woman admits she removed the plug on the kayak and manipulated his kayak paddle. They even say in addition to removing the drain plug, she was pushing a floating paddle away from him after his kayak capsized. Imagine that you're out in the water. You've got three and four foot waves of black water, choppy water coming over you. You don't have on a life jacket. You're trying to stay up, and then you actually see your fiancé pushing a paddle away from you.

What? Hey, look, don't take my word for it. Listen to the audio tapes of her interrogation that we have obtained. Listen. Why didn't you have that fucking thing? He didn we have obtained. Listen. Why did he have that plug in there? He didn't have it. I guess I had it.

He took it out of that car at one point? I don't know. Straight out to Karen Smith, forensics expert. Weigh in, Karen. Well, I did a little bit of research. I kayaked quite a bit in the rivers of Tennessee and Florida, and kayaking is difficult to stay balanced on its own. The plug that was removed is called a scupper plug. And the reason that it's there,

and there are several different versions of this, but the reason that it's there is to keep water out, especially in what? Choppy conditions. Because you're naturally going to get a little bit of water in a kayak. It's designed for a little bit, but when you cross that threshold into too much water, you're going to have an imbalance, not only in three to five foot waves. I can't imagine kayaking in conditions like that, but the water is going to be sloshing around the kayak. You're going to capsize. So that plug is there for a purpose. And if it was purposefully removed, tells me she knew what she was doing in addition to pushing his paddle away. That's enough for me.

Well, not only that, hold on to your seat, Karen Smith, because the paddles of a kayak are held on by something called a C-clip. She had actually disconnected them. Listen. How long before you guys went on your uh kind trip did you take that right the same daddy i didn't take it kill them okay it's not just that the singing the chanting that goes on during their interrogation tape it reminds reminds me a lot of Jodi Arias, who started a rendition of Oh Holy Night, which, you know, I must have listened to 500 times. But this woman, just the bizarre behavior

during the investigation tapes that she's being interrogated was right there. You know, you know what? Listen for yourself. Let's hear some more of her interrogation tape. What are your feelings and emotions knowing that this is about to happen that when you're gone like ripping into hops you know what's the demon side saying the demon side

oh it's not a good side you guys don't want to see that side of me. Nobody does. That side was telling me... Just like... Like the big side was saying... Say, say, say, we can do it, we can do it, we can do it. Why the demon's side went out? So even after she admits to pulling the plug, to removing the paddles, to pushing them away from Vincent as he's drowning, she comes up with an excuse as to why he needed to be dead. Listen.

When you washed him in the water, was a part of you saying, my worries are going away now? And I'm free? And were you almost... Before it? Before it that he was going to be gone. You felt that one? When Angelica Griswold spoke to police, she insisted, quote, I loved him. I'm not a murderer. But that wasn't the end. She also says, I didn't kill him. I loved him. I'm not a killer. I'm a good

person. Take a listen to what she says to ABC's 2020. I just want to ask you, so you have a chance to answer this question. Did you kill Vince that day? No, I didn't kill him. Did you do anything that you knew might lead to him being hurt or him dying in the river? No. I loved him. I didn't do it. You never wished that he was no longer

in your life? You never did anything to him that day that would have either actually caused his death or that you knew had a good chance of causing his death? No. I loved him. I did not want to kill him. And I didn't do anything to kill him.

But that is not the end of the story. Let me pause very briefly and thank our partner making today's investigation into the most recent break in the kayak killer murder mystery, making it possible. It's LegalZoom. You know, New Year's madness is over. We can't use that as an excuse anymore. It's time to write our own success stories for 2018. LegalZoom can help you make that possible. Will this be the year you finally get serious about launching and running your own business? Will this be the year you rest easier knowing you finally took care of your

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And for special savings, enter promo code Nancy, N-A-N-C-Y, in the referral box at checkout. LegalZoom, where life meets legal. LegalZoom.com. Thank you. You always wanted sex? Yeah. Did you do any legal. LegalZoom.com. Thank you. He always wanted sex. Yeah. He didn't do sexual things. Well, yeah.

Okay. He wanted three sons, four, everything. Okay. And I was already. Did it upset you that he was trying to switch, that he did not want to marry you? Yeah, of course. Who proposed? Somebody in the team came on.

Straight back to what we are learning right now regarding the Kayak killing murder mystery. That's really just the tip of the iceberg. Because what she says after, after he's dead to Karen Stark, New York psychologist, is that she didn't like having sex with him anymore. That he had suggested the idea of threesomes, and she just wanted nothing to do with it. You know, she could break up, Karen. You don't have to pull the kayak plug in the middle of the Hudson River.

Well, they could break up, that's for sure, Nancy, except if there's anything that can be gained from him dying, then why would she just want to break up? Well, here's the thing. To Ashley Wilcott joining us, lawyer and advocate, what she tells ABC's 2020 is very different from what she told the police in the interrogation. In the interrogation, she says, hold on, I've got to get the very, very best quote, and then we'll actually listen to it. I wanted him dead, and now he's gone, and I'm okay with it. That's what she says in an 11-hour interrogation. As a matter of fact, hold on, Ashley, listen to this. Angelica what is the true answer to that question alright

what is it I wanted him dead and now he's gone and I'm a killer that's not at all what she tells 2020 I'm not a killer I would never do anything like this I love him but Ashley

now comes a specter of nearly a half a million dollar life insurance policy he had a life insurance policy yeah and you were on it yeah to hey with not wanting a threesome this is about the money absolutely and it's too little too late you've already made your statement it's's a prior inconsistent statement. It can be used against her in court. And to come out later and say, oh, no, I loved him so she can get the money is exactly what she's done in this case. To Karen Smith, forensics expert. Karen, I mean, you've seen it all.

You've worked on so many murder cases. To change your story and then come up with some cockamamie excuse like they interrogated me too long i was hungry i was thirsty for pete's sake it was 11 hours that's it nobody beat her in the head with a phone book i mean she just i don't understand how she could even suggest now that she was forced into this statement no cop made her say he wanted a threesome. Absolutely not. It wasn't a matter of forcing her to say anything. She made these statements of her free will and they weren't coerced. You know, when we do murder investigations, we're looking for three things. Motive, means, and opportunity. Well, we have the means, the plug and the paddle and a kayak and three to five foot waves. We have the opportunity.

They're out there in the middle of nowhere. And the motive, well, that's about half a million and the paddle and a kayak in three to five foot waves, we have the opportunity. They're out there in the middle of nowhere. And the motive, well, that's about half a million reasons in my book for her to commit this crime. Well, this really disturbs me that with all of this evidence, all of the admissions, all of the cockamamie excuses she came up with to David Hopkins, Crime Stories investigative reporter.

What did Angelica Griswold get as a sentence? Everybody, you might as well sit down. You may need to lay down for this one. Go ahead. She only got four years behind bars. Four years behind bars. Ashley Wilcott, lawyer and advocate. his family must have gone berserk when that happened. Can you imagine for murder, manslaughter? I mean, honestly, from beginning to end, this

smelled bad. And I cannot imagine being a family member who learns that this has happened and he's been murdered. And that's all you get is four years. Hey, there was just a sentence I read about that was a financial crime embezzlement. And it was $150,000. And that person was sentenced to serve 10 years. So where's that right? You embezzle $150,000, you're in jail 10 years. You kill someone and you're in jail for four. Actually, her sentence, Ashley Angelica Graswell, just 37 years old,

got the sentence of one and a third to four years in the state prison for the death of 46-year-old Vincent Villafore. She actually had even pled guilty, and that's all they could do. Now, here is the shocker. Here is the shocker. She's already out. She is out from behind bars. It's amazing. It's a shock. According to the Aforee's sister, my brother did not deserve to have his life end this way. I mean, to you, Karen Smith, forensics expert, death by drowning is a horrible way to die. What exactly happens to your body? Well, we're dealing with really cold water, Nancy.

So your body first is going to pretty much go numb. And what's going to happen after that is you're going to have a reflex. Your diaphragm is going to contract. You're going to want to pull in air. It's a natural reflex. No matter how long you try to hold your breath, it's going to happen. And unfortunately, if you're in that choppy water and if you're going under that reflex is instead of air it's going to pull in water and that's going to start the drowning process and unfortunately that's what happened in this case when police asked her during her interrogation how it made her feel to watch via foray fighting for his life in the cold choppy water her response was quote euphoric

take a listen to this how did it make you feel when he did some of these things to you to the point that you wanted them done did you feel like this was the only way out that brings us up to the here and now. What is the most recent bombshell to David Hopkins, Crime Stories investigative reporter? What can you tell us? She's already out and she's apparently $491,000 life insurance policy. The convicted kayak killer just isn't giving up. She's not giving up the ghost on trying to profit

from her fiancé's death. And now she's actually taking on his family, his blood relatives, for the right to a half a million dollars of insurance policy. Karen Stark, I mean, does she know no shame? Well, shame has nothing to do with this, Nancy. When you're talking about someone who's capable of killing, they don't have a conscience. They don't care about his family.

I would suspect that this is what she wanted all along. She wanted to be able to get a hold of this money. But when you kill somebody, shouldn't you lose your rights to the life insurance policy? She is actually contesting an effort by the Afore's family to bar her from getting her mitts on that money to Ashley Wilcott, lawyer and advocate. Weigh in, Ashley. I'm stunned. Well, let me say this. So what insurance companies do is if there's any fraud, alleged fraud or intentional willful act that interferes with the necessity or ability or appropriateness of them to pay out, they fight it.

And so the fact that she entered a plea and she was sentenced to jail time and she therefore has a conviction for this particular crime, rest assured, I do not believe that that insurance company is going to pay out that percentage to her. Well, wait a minute. You think that right. But the reality is the family, his blood relatives are actually having to put up a fight. Now, if this is any indication about how she rolls, we learn this, Karen Stark, New York psychologist joining me. She gets out of prison after just a couple of months. This is the Latvian immigrant who watches her fiancé fight for his life and drown, sinking down to the bottom of the Hudson River. She walks out of prison and celebrates with martinis and a steak lunch. Yes, she walked out just one month after the sentencing and then goes out and has a nice, rare, bloody steak and martinis.

It just looks bad, Karen. It looks bad and fits her profile because this is somebody who intentionally murdered this man. She was able to make sure that his kayak would not be able to withstand. She played around with those oars. Then she called it a tragic accident.

Nothing that she does makes sense. So for her, this was freedom. She got away with it. And she has then the nerve to be able to ask to get this money because she has no conscience, no thought of killing somebody. It does not affect her, Nancy. She went right out and headed to an upscale eatery, went up to the second floor to a private room where she ordered and devoured a $38 steak, nice and bloody, during a two-hour lunch, started off with a round of martinis. I can't tell you how irritated I am right now. And I know that family, Vince and Viafore, is just beside themselves.

And now they've got to launch a fight with her over his insurance money you know even if she does get the money which is very possible the family can sue her for wrongful death but Ashley Wilcott lawyer and advocate it's just wrong she She kills him. She gets life insurance policy. And they have to sue her and spend all their money on a wrongful death suit. And she uses what money she has to live high on the hog and for lawyers. I mean, Ashley, that's not justice. It's not. And that's the problem is that if she gets her hands on the money or already has it'll be well spent by her before

they ever get a judgment against her so there's really no good outcome in this case it's not a just outcome and it's really um ethically morally it feels bad it's not right let me ask you this what is it karen start why is it bothering me so much that she goes out, goes straight from the, as I call it, not the big house, but the big doll house, the women's correctional facility, the CI, and goes straight out for martinis and a bloody steak. It just is rubbing me the wrong way. Well, the whole thing stinks, Nancy. That's why it's rubbing you the wrong way how could somebody who killed who murdered another person who actually did a plea deal so that she could get less time and a different kind of sentence winds up going out and celebrating knowing that the person that she supposedly loved is dead and i think the thing that really gets to you is that she's not even pretending that she

cares i mean come on karen stark some men will ask you to do anything all you have to do is say no it typically if she didn't want a threesome and she didn't want to do what he wanted say no for pete's sake break up if you don't like it. Nobody was making her stay with him. She'd already been through two husbands and the short time she was in the U.S. before she latched on, got her tentacles wrapped around via foray. Now he's dead.

I pity the next guy she runs into, but why should she make a profit off of a Karen Stark? Well, it doesn't make sense that she should, but as of this point, Nancy, there is no law that prevents her, she's out of jail, from requesting that money. She's allowed to do it. Well, so much for love at first sight. That's all I've got to say. We're on it, and I intend to stay on it and make sure

Angelica Graswell does not get that money. You know what? It can be exhausting, right? Working all day, raising your children into the night, then up the next morning to do the next thing, to keep it all going. And what I'm doing to increase my energy is to work on my blood pressure and circulation. I know you don't think about it a lot, but you should. And this is why. Circulation is crucial to maintaining energy and stamina. Because circulation, which is moving your blood through your body, the red blood cells take oxygen and nutrients to all the parts of your body.

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worst, but me, I'm the grandmother, so I knew it was him. We have devoted a lot of time, energy, and investigation in trying to identify the remains of a four-year-old little boy that was found in a bag in a yard.

And we have breaking news right now that the little boy has been identified. Take a listen to what his grandmother has to say. I did see the sketch and I put his picture next to the composite and I when I really knew it was him was from the teeth how they were formed and shaped. A medical examiner has finally identified the remains found in a bag. This was no accident. You don't have an accident die and crawl into a bag at age four. This bag was found in the backyard of a Cleveland home, a home that was vacant and having construction work done on it. This was last year, and we have been trying our best to have those remains identified.

How does a child go missing and nobody knows? How can a body turn up in a bag and nobody identifies the baby? Authorities say in the last hours that they have identified this tiny child. And I'm just thinking about my twins at age four, how helpless and tiny they were. Joining me right now, syndicated talk show host, Dave Mack. Dave Mack, telling us the latest out of Cleveland. Dave, what do you know about them finally identifying these remains? Nancy, you know, you mentioned a four-year-old and nobody reported him missing. That's the most shocking thing I can possibly think of. It's a vacant home and a guy is pruning trees in the backyard and cuts open a garbage bag and finds a complete skeleton inside. And nobody had reported him missing i'm

still trying to digest okay wait wait whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa hold on dave mack to karen smith forensics expert karen if he was already skeletonized that means he had been there for some time exactly right it means months if not years and i believe that they've dated it back to the spring or summer and that's going to make the medical examiner's job all that more difficult because you're dealing with there's no I hate to be like this but there's no flesh remaining so there's not going to be the superficial bruising or the deep bruising left there's not going to be much evidence so they're really going to have to put their nose to the grindstone to find out what may have happened to this poor little boy. This little boy now identified as four-year-old Eliza Ruiz. The four-year-old has just been identified. After After months we have spent trying to spread the word and the sketch by a sketch artist made from the tiny remains.

I mean, how does that work, Karen Smith? How do you, and I've done it in court several times, from remains, decomposed remains, bring in an expert who can actually make a sketch of the face of the dead person. How does that work when they're already skeletonized? It's kind of a fascinating process, and I've seen a lot of facial reconstruction artists use clay. They actually put different levels of foam on the skull, and they form what they believe to be a good likeness of the person. And I would think that a child would be doubly difficult because their facial bones haven't formed in the way that adults have. So it's kind of speculative, but from the drawing that I saw,

it was really quite compelling. And obviously it led to his identity or at least helped him. This is not just any little boy. This little boy was beautiful with a sparkly, happy personality. Listen to what his grandmother says. Personality is happy-go-lucky. He was always, he was always doing something to make somebody laugh. It's heartbreaking that after this composite sketch, which really broke the case wide open, the grandmother says, I knew as soon as I saw the smile in the sketch that it was Elisar.

I knew as soon as I saw the smile, it was my grandson. It's just more painful than I can even think of. But now the question is, how? How did this child die? and why? What is the cause and manner of death? To Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host, as of right now, the county medical examiner's office is still trying to figure out the cause and manner of death.

Isn't that right? His mom has been away since February of 2017, and his death, or they're assuming right now, trying to figure out an actual real time of death, came sometime after that, when he was not in the custody of his mother, but in the custody of his godmother. And that's what they're trying to trace back to what was going on in his life. Because again, he was well fed. He was in okay shape. They can't find any outward signs of trauma. And they just don't have any answers yet.

Joining me, Ashley Wilcott, lawyer, sitting judge, and child advocate. Ashley, you know what I noticed in all the many years I prosecuted felonies? That when a lot of people handle cases where a child is the victim, the plea sentence is less. The sentence is less at trial. I don't know why, but I do not want this treated lightly. Somebody needs to go to jail for life on this. If not worse, Ashley.

I agree. And here's the thing. The fact that the child was never reported missing is suspicious in and of itself, because that means that whoever had the child murdered the child. Otherwise, somebody would have reported the child missing. So you have a lot of elements of different crimes in this particular case so that they can identify a suspect and actually prosecute them. And I will tell you, it shows like yours that raise public awareness because we have got to get stricter, harsher sentencing for those who murder children. Joining me is

Karen Start, New York psychologist and Karen Smith, forensics expert. Karen Smith, how are they going to determine if the body is mostly skeletonized? How are they going to determine the cause of death? That's a really good question. So unless the skeletonized remains have some kind of mark on them, you know, it's really difficult for me to talk about doing a vicious homicide to a child, but we have to look at that as a possibility. Are there marks left on the bones that were found in the bag? Also, this can find trace DNA remnants on the outside of that bag or the inside of that bag where the child was placed, we can do a comparison. They had a DNA profile that identified the child. So if we can run a DNA profile against that sample and find out if there's any foreign DNA, that's going to open up a whole new bag of worms. Also, why did they choose the house they

chose to dump the bag? To me, that tells me that whoever did it is familiar with the area. They knew that house had been abandoned and they knew that it was a place to place it where nobody would notice, nobody would say anything, and it would remain there for a long time. Well, there has to be more than just skeletons because we know right now karen smith that the although many reports said skeletonized there had to be more than that because the me is saying uh and this is the county medical examiner thomas gilson has said that elizur was healthy up to his death, well nourished, and no obvious signs of trauma. So what that means to me is he must be partially skeletonized because the medical examiner knows there's no obvious signs of trauma. And more telling is that he was well nourished.

So there had to be soft tissue enough for that. Yes, that's correct, Nancy. It may not be enough soft tissue to enable them to give a cause and manner of death. Hopefully it's enough for them to determine the cause or some precipitating reason why this child died or was murdered. They said that his hair was brown and hair is very hardy. It can last a long time even in that environment. So hopefully there was enough there for them to make a ruling. We know that DNA has now confirmed that this is in fact Eliza. We also know that the child was in the care of his godmother in the mom's absence.

I don't know where the dad is. I don't know where that piece of the puzzle fits into this scenario. But I know this. We want justice. And Eliza's grandmother could not agree more. Listen. I wish that the person that did this to him could get the same that they did to him, whatever that may be.

If you have information to help solve the mystery surrounding the death of this 4-year-old little boy, Eliza, please call 216-443-6000. Repeat, 216-443-6000. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart podcast