Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Kayaks heading out to search Leon River after items 'connected to Vanessa Guillen' spotted by witness

Episode Date: June 30, 2020

More remains have been found in the search for Pfc Vanessa Guillen. Remains of a male soldier missing nearly a year were found about a week ago, and over the week, more remains were found and sent for forensic review. The search resumes today with volunteers searching nearby waterways after possible items relating to Guillen were found.Joining Nancy Grace today: Lawyer James Shelnutt - 27-year Atlanta Metro Major Case detective, SWAT Officer, Attorney Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist Karen Smith - Los Angeles Forensics Expert, Lecturer at the University of Florida, Host of "Shattered Souls" podcast Dr. Kris Sperry - Former Chief Medical Examiner State of Georgia Natalie Kwahan - Attorney for Vanessa Guillen family Specialist Tim Miller, Texas Equusearch Levi Page - Investigative Reporter CrimeOnline Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. In the last hours, a bombshell in the search for a gorgeous 20-year-old Fort Hood soldier, Vanessa Guillen. We now know that in the last hours, remains have been found. Another body apparently found in the area near Fort Hood where another young soldier has been found dead and buried. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What does it mean in the search for Vanessa? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us here on Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to our friends at ABC 13 Houston. Killeen police are investigating after more remains were found near the site where the remains of a missing Fort Hood soldier were found earlier this month. Now, these remains were reportedly found within walking distance of where investigators found the body of Private Gregory Wendell Morales on June 19th. Now, he had been missing from Fort Hood since August. His cause of death is under investigation, but they have said they suspect foul play. The remains found yesterday have been sent to the Southwestern Institute of Forensic

Sciences in Dallas. The discovery was made as Texas Equus search was looking for another missing Fort Hood soldier. Private first class Vanessa Gann Gann was last seen April 22nd on base. However, officials have not yet said if these cases are connected. Well, of course there's foul play. We're not idiots. How could the soldier Gregory Waddell Morales die of natural causes and then bury himself out in the middle of nowhere, a stone's throw from Fort Hood, one of the biggest army bases in our country. Of course it's foul play. If it had been natural causes or an accident, 911 would have been called.

But of course there's foul play. I supposed to reconcile the fact that this guy, Gregory Waddell Morales, is killed and buried about a mile, less than a mile from Fort Hood. And now Vanessa Guillen, gorgeous 21-year-old private first class, also goes missing. Well, with me to figure out this major bombshell and what does it mean to search for Vanessa is an all-star panel. First of all, James Shelnut, 27 years, Metro major case, including SWAT, now lawyer at ShelnutLawFirm.com,

renowned New York psychologist, Karen Stark, joining me at KarenStark.com. Karen Smith joining me out of LA, forensics expert, lecturer, University of Florida, and host of Shattered Souls new podcast, Dr. Chris Sperry, who I personally have put on the stand many, many times on direct examination, former chief medical examiner for the entire state of Georgia, and Texas EquiSearch founder and leader Tim Miller,

who's joining us straight off the search for another missing person. He has been leading many of the searches for Vanessa. But right now to Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Levi, one more very important guest joining us today, and I can't wait to hear from her. The attorney for Vanessa Ginn's family, Natalie Kawan, is with us. Tim Miller, it's my understanding that near the body of Gregory Wendell Morales, more remains have been found. Correct. Have you heard that yet, Tim? I have heard that, and we kind of got excited thinking that it was Vanessa, but... We don't know anything yet. The

remains have been sent away, I understand, to Dallas to Dr. Chris Sperry, former chief medical examiner, state of Georgia. Dr. Chris Sperry, what's the first thing the medical examiner is going to do and i agree with tim miller i don't want to get too excited you know was there ever a time chris berry that we didn't get excited when we found out that potential human remains were found that's that's kind of um bizarre but that said as it goes for the search for vanessa what's the first thing they're going to do with the dallas uh medical examiners when they look at these remains? Well, the very first thing the medical examiner is going to do is to x-ray the remains. And the reason for that is to make sure if there is a bullet or the tip of a knife or something metallic that could be related to the cause of death,

that can be found and identified right off the bat. Because there's often all sorts of dirt that is caked on the remains and brush and things like that that come in. So that's the very first thing is to x-ray everything. You know, that just shows why you're the medical examiner and I'm just a lowly trial lawyer. Because I would have thought the first thing you would do is decide if it's human or animal. Well, it depends on how much there is. If it's just a single bone that's relatively clean, we'll make that determination very quickly. And you're absolutely right.

Wait, wait, wait, Jackie. I want a clip of this. Because never in all the years that I have known Dr. Chris Berry have I heard him say the words, those three beautiful words, no, not I love you, although that's good too. But you are right. Did you hear that? I did. He said, I've never in all the years i've known you chris berry

and all the times i put you on the stand sworn you in on the bible i've never heard you say you are right and i am so happy but but you probably never heard me say that you're wrong either have you uh let me think i find that hard to believe i gotta i've to go back in time. But how do you look at a bone? Let's just say, let's just pretend it's this, I've got my left hand up and I'm holding up my little finger. What if all you have is that last digit behind your fingernail? How do you know if you've got a human or a dog or any animal. No, okay, I understand. If the, see, when talking about remains, I tend to think about lots of bones or a collection of things, but if all that you have is, say, one little small bone, well, then making the differentiation between animal and human, of course, is very, very important from the

start. And for single bones or just a few bones that are relatively clean, then, you know, yes, that's done. I've done that hundreds of times. But how do you do it? How do you look at this tiny bit of bone and say, that's human? Well, it's based on the shape and the length, the dimensions. Human bones specifically look like human bones. You really are not telling me anything new right now. Yeah, no.

Doctors, we all learn what the human skeleton looks like. Now, it can be very difficult sometimes if it's pieces of bones or very, very small ones, like the single bone that's the end of your left little finger. At that point, we might have an anthropologist come and look at the bone as well to see what they think. Let me ask you this. Is there some kind of a DNA test you can run on it to determine if it's human or animal? Well, sure. If we can't decide just from looking at it and x-raying it, then that's the next step would be to do DNA on it to see if it's human or not human.

And that's a very simple kind of DNA test that could be accomplished overnight. You know, Dr. Crisperi, just let us in on the truth. I know the truth, but I want you to tell us. You're, again, the MD, the medical examiner. When we always hear, oh, we're waiting for DNA tests, the reality is DNA tests do not take as long as the labs would have you believe. Now, I know this for a fact, but could you tell me the truth of it? Well, I'll say it a second time. You're exactly right.

Now, DNA testing can be done, I mean, literally overnight. Any forensic laboratory that regularly does DNA testing in this country can do a really full DNA screening overnight, 24 hours easily. And that kind of speed is really reserved for high profile cases or where a question is really extremely important. You know, is this animal or human? Or is this human, not only human, but could it come from someone that has been missing for some period of time? So that rapid turnaround is reserved for cases of significant importance or where further investigation is, you know, really dependent upon

the results. Because if it's not human, well, then you're not going to send 100 people out coming through the brush looking for bones. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, I was speaking with medical examiner Dr. Chris Sperry. We are talking about a bombshell in the search for a 20-year-old beauty, private first class Vanessa Guillem. You were just hearing Dr. Chris Sperry as he was describing how you tell whether the remains just found in connection to the Vanessa Gimm search are human or animal. He said that a very quick DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid turnaround, could be done overnight, only if it's an important case. Well, you know what? What victim's family doesn't think it's an important case?

My big question. We're talking about Vanessa Gamm. Take a listen now to KWTX describing her disappearance. 20-year-old private first class, Vanessa Gillian's keys, ID card, and wallet were later found in the armory room where she had been working earlier that day. Please, if you have any information on small, it don't matter. Please call the police. We've been bringing pictures here.

We've been posting on small businesses, gas stations. We're trying our best. She was last seen wearing a black T-shirt. She is 5 feet 2 inches tall, 126 pounds, with black hair and brown eyes. The search for Vanessa again goes on. This as the specter of sex harassment on Vanessa raises its ugly head, and apparently other women there in Fort Hood have complained. Now, the Army is officially saying they don't have any credible evidence she was sex harassed. Well, she told her mother all about it, and I'm sure took others into her confidence.

Is that not enough? Guys, joining me in All-Star Panel, but right now I want to go to special guest, the lawyer for Vanessa Guillen's family, Natalie Kawan. Natalie, once and for all, I just heard, I just heard that reporter say Gillen. I don't think that's correct. I don't want to disrespect their family by mispronouncing their name. How is it pronounced? Guillen. Guillen. Thank you. Natalie, what is Vanessa's family's reaction to the bombshell that more remains have been found next to the other private who went missing. Nobody ever found him either.

His remains were found a stone's throw from Fort Hood, and now more remains have been located near his body. What's their reaction? Well, I think that they are hoping that the daughter comes up alive. You know, that's the mother, especially the mother, believes that, you know, keep searching, we're going to find her. So she's very optimistic and hopeful that we'll find Vanessa. So, you know, that's what we're dealing with right now. Natalie Kawan with me, the lawyer for Vanessa Ginn's family. When the Army says officially that they have no credible evidence to support Vanessa's claim she was sex harassed,

she told her mother about it, it's my understanding, and the mom said, well, I'm going to take care of it. And that's when Vanessa said, no, I will take care of it. But she never did formally file a complaint. And then suddenly, before she could, she goes missing. What does the family think of that? Well, you know, this is something that's not an unusual situation. A lot of women are afraid to disclose or report sexual harassment, especially in the military. If you go to the social media site, I am Vanessa Guillen. It's sad. It's scary. Hundreds and hundreds of soldiers are

coming forth with their story. A lot of them saying that they're ashamed to talk about it, but they're doing this for Vanessa. And it tells you about the culture these are people that they work with on a daily basis these are people that they eat sleep go rabbit holes foxholes forever with on a daily basis so they're free to report on their own brother or sister in arms about the wrongful conduct that they are experiencing or being victims of. And in this situation, she had two incidences where she reported to her, not just her mother and her sister, but also to her friends and her colleagues at work, her fellow soldiers. But she didn't want to do a formal report, which is completely understandable.

Nobody wants to be retaliated or blackballed. She wanted to join theated or blackballed. She wanted to join the Army and serve the country. She didn't want to follow reports of sexual harassment and then get blackballed. And honestly, after I read all these social media, these Instagrams and these people talking about I am Vanessa, I am reading it and I'm thinking, no wonder she didn't want to come forth. Most people don't want to come forth because they feel like they're going to get retaliated against. Here you're reading things of the insubordination, being discharged, being put in different units, scrubbing toilets.

I mean, I read these things and I'm thinking, geez, I cannot imagine what she was going through. I mean, here you have a beautiful 19-year-old girl. Her sergeant walks in on her while she's taking a shower. How creepy. He sits there and watches her. She doesn't feel comfortable. She asks him to leave. You know, you have the situation where you have a young girl who doesn't know what to do. She's in the military. Her parents are immigrants. It really breaks my heart that she has to experience this. And then another time she experiences another sexual harassment from another sergeant of hers. She doesn't know what to do.

She doesn't want to get in any trouble by saying anything. And here when the Army says to us, oh, we didn't look into this because sexual harassment is not criminal. That was like where I was. They blew my mind when they said they did not look into it because so they didn't say that was not verifiable and credible. They said that there was no reporting of it and therefore they never looked into it. So when we said, well, wouldn't you want to look into the sexual harassment? Because that could lead you to some criminal behavior. I mean, you know, behind every talk, which are spies,

they're going to find other information and other, probably some criminal nature because you don't know. Just because she said to her mom that she got sexually harassed doesn't mean she told the whole story. She could have been sexually assaulted. Kids don't want to tell their parents that they were assaulted. You know, Natalie Kawan is with me, the lawyer for Vanessa's family. Natalie, I bet you'd be really surprised at all the people who may have a lot of degrees and a lot of experience that stayed quiet when they were sex harassed. Some of them because they were on a mission, like Vanessa.

She wanted to serve her country. Lawyers have cases that they're committed to that they want to win in court. And saying that, let's just pretend, a judge or another lawyer or an investigator sex harassed them repeatedly. If that were to come out and a big complaint filed, the case would be blown up. And what about the clients or the victims in that case? What happens to them? Mistrial?

I mean, there are so many things that women balance when they make the decision not to come forward. But Natalie Kwan, I'm so glad you're telling me that of two incidents, she actually reported to her colleagues, not just her mom and her friends, but to colleagues at work. Guys, I want you to take a listen to our friends at Fox 7. This is Austin News reporter Shannon Ryan talking about exactly what Natalie Kawan was just saying. The website I am Vanessa Guillen. Listen. Guillen disappeared after telling family and friends she was being sexually harassed on post. Right now it's unclear if her disappearance is connected to the reported sexual harassment, but her story has encouraged women throughout the country to come forward and share their own experiences with sexual misconduct in the military.

I want people to know that, you know, as women and women in the military, we don't need to be protected. We need to be respected. Nineteen years ago, Yari Mar Lewis was a 19 year old private first class at Fort Hood. I wanted to serve my country today. She's one of hundreds of women sharing their stories under the hashtag. I am Vanessa Guillen. The 20 year old private first class disappeared from post on April 22nd. She told family and friends she was being sexually harassed. Which is unacceptable because she was supposed to be safe while working and protecting the country we live in. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

Guys, we are talking about bombshell evidence that has just come forward in the last hours in the search for Vanessa Guillen. Straight out to Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter now joining us. Levi Page, tell me about the discovery of Gregory Wendell Morales' remains. Let's start there, and then we'll move to the newly discovered remains. So Gregory Wendell Morales was 23 years old. He went missing August 2019, a few days before he was going to leave the Army, and his remains were found last week. It's been positively confirmed

that they were him, and this was found during the search of Vanessa Guillen, and Fort Hood is playing everything very close to the vest, Nancy. They're not releasing a lot of information about it. What do we know about Vanessa Guillen? Take a listen to what her sister has to say to V6 News reporter Jasmine Caldwell. Investigators say the 20-year-old soldier was last seen April 22nd at 1 p.m. She was a family-oriented girl. She was somebody that would come home

that was going to parties to nearby cities, like Austin, Dallas. You know, it would be easy for her to choose the other route. I know she would come home every weekend to us. Myra says her sister means the world to her, and she'd do anything to find her. I love her, and I'm not going to stop. I'm not going to stop until I have her with me because, I mean, I'm trying my best. I know she needs me. The Army CID is encouraging anyone with information to come forward, even if you choose to remain anonymous. Please go to crimeonline.com,

see Vanessa Gahim, read her story. I think about my little girl, Lucy. I have twins, John, Dave, and Lucy. They're only 12, but they're about to turn 13. Vanessa's just seven years older than my girl. And I want her prepared to go out in the world and be a huge hit in whatever she chooses to do and to think that she would be sex harassed at work and afraid to come forward or lose her job. Because don't you know, that is exactly what Vanessa thought.

If I come forward, I'll never make it anywhere in the Army. I'll be blackballed. I'll get a discharge. Then what am I going to do? It's just making me ill to even think about it. To Karen Stark joining me, New York psychologist. You can find her at karenstark.com. You know, it doesn't give women very much of a choice. I don't want to go down a rabbit hole on sex harassment. I want to help find Vanessa. But I can't help but believe that these two are intertwined.

The sex harassment she was enduring, and I believe her, and her disappearance, Karen Stark. I mean, when you think of your daughter going out there and putting up with the crap that she had to put up with and then go missing, I mean, if she was right, Karen Stark, if she had said anything, I bet she would have been blackballed. Well, especially Nancy, you're talking about the armed services. You're talking about the Army. And as was said earlier, that's a place where you are not supposed to, I mean, they don't say you can, but I'd be surprised if they're actually doing any kind of investigation to look into this. She knew to be afraid because it's not

acceptable. You're supposed to be strong. You're supposed to deal with it. You're not supposed to ever report on somebody else, especially sexual harassment. And again, our program today is about searching for Vanessa. But I truly believe, I mean, James Shelnut, 27 years, met you on a major case, now lawyer. Come on, James, can you believe the two are not connected? Because think about it. At Fort Hood, every person that comes in, not leaving, but comes in, goes through a security guard checkpoint. And if you're a visitor, you have to show your ID and they make a list of who's coming in.

I mean, they even do that at TV studios, for Pete's sake. When you leave, not so much. But they knew every visitor coming in. And if you weren't there, I guess you'd just show your badge. But long story short, this was at lunchtime. She left all her stuff in the armory where she worked on munitions repair. And she took with her just her cell phone. She left behind her ID, her room card to get in and out of her room, her keys,

her wallet, all of her stuff. She just walked out with just her cell phone, just as if you and I would walk to a different room, we might carry our cell phone with us in case it rang. She never came back. I find it very difficult to believe that some intruder, some outsider took her. So, ergo, therefore, if an insider at Fort Hood is involved, how likely is it it's not connected to these on-the-job sex harassment claims? Yeah, I agree that that is something that needs to be put up under a magnifying glass. You know, the bottom line is, you know as well as I do, when a person leaves their keys, purse, wallet, personal belongings like that,

they are planning on coming back for those things. That's not something you permanently abandon somewhere. It means that she was planning on coming back for those things. That's not something you permanently leave or abandon somewhere. It means that she was planning on coming back. So when you look at these two cases, one of the first things that, you know, looking at it from a detective's point of view that you want to do is you want to try to connect dots between these two cases. Did these two know each other? I mean, that's one of the first questions that you want to ask. And then number two after that, you know, do these people know the same people? Is there any connection in between the people they know or the group that they run in? And I think that the investigators looking at this case are fumbling the ball if

they don't go back and look at the other case file of the young man that came up missing and remains later discovered. You know, think about it, guys. Karen Smith joining me, forensics expert, lecturer, University of Florida. Now she has her own podcast called Shattered Souls. Karen Smith and I first met, I think, Karen, when we were doing a reenactment of a murder and all the possibilities that would help us prove what happened. Did it happen this way? Did it happen that way?

Remember that and all that fake blood? Karen Smith. Yes, I do. Let's talk about what we know. We know that she left her ID card, which you need. You know, when you're at work, you need your ID. If you carry an ID, her wallet, and in my mind, even more important, her car keys. So when I think I've lost my keys, which is often, I need to put

one of those little tile things on there. But I immediately try to find them. I'm like, oh, I can't find my car keys. Why would, she left her car keys and that tells anybody. You don't have to be a forensic expert like yourself to know she meant to come back because she left her car keys and that tells anybody. You don't have to be a forensic expert like yourself to know she meant to come back because she left her car keys at her workstation. That's correct. I'm a military veteran. I'll tell you this. When you go on base, you go through a checkpoint and they randomly check IDs on the way in. A lot of times there'll be a sticker on your car and you get waved in or you get saluted if you're an officer. Then you go to your workstation. I worked in an airplane hangar. That's where I parked. That's where I went. They come in and they check to make sure you are where you're supposed to be, when you're supposed to be there. And one of the things that really disturbed me when I read this, Nancy, was the fact that they do muster numerous times a day. If Vanessa went, or excuse me, if she went missing at 1130 to 1230 in the afternoon and she missed muster, they've already said that that was a mistake, that they counted

her present when she wasn't. That is not, that's not what happens in the military. If you're not there, they find out where you are. Because when you sign up and you sign that paper and you swear an oath to the constitution they own you you are there for the duration and that's what they should have started this entire thing the minute she did not show up to muster let me ask you something you just said uh did they do muster for those of the that don't know what that means could you explain it very quickly sure it's a check-in. It's basically, are you doing your job? Are you where you're supposed to be? When you're in the military, attention to detail and doing your job is what you have signed up for. And I was an aviation structural mechanic. If I wasn't in the hangar and I wasn't there at, say, three o'clock in the

afternoon, they would want to know where I'm at. Am I down at AIMD? Am I down at the dock getting plane parts off of an aircraft? They know where I'm at because A, I have signed out. I've checked in with my superior officer. They know where I'm at every minute of every single day. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we were talking about the disappearance of a beautiful, young, 20-year-old private first class at Fort Hood, her name, Vanessa Gimm. At first, we kept doing the story because I felt no one was focusing on Vanessa's disappearance. She was getting lost in the sauce and everything else that's happening in our country right now. But in the last hours, a bombshell in the case. More remains have been found in the search for Vanessa.

Straight back out to CrimeOnline.com's Levi Page. Levi, take a listen to what we know about Vanessa herself. This is from ABC Good Morning America, Stephanie Ramos. Listen. Before Vanessa went missing, her family says she told them she was being sexually harassed by one of her sergeants and didn't tell her superiors for fear of retribution. The army now saying they will investigate those allegations, adding that the search for the private first class continues on the ground and in the air. But that response not good enough for the hundreds that gathered outside the army post Friday. How can we not find one of our own? How can we not find one of our own? How can they not find one of their own? Concerns over the missing soldier gaining traction on social

media. Actress Salma Hayek joining the effort, posting a message on Instagram saying, bring back Vanessa. We won't stop until you come back. Joining me, an all-star panel, including the lawyer for Vanessa Guillen's family. Straight back to you, Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Again, tell me about the remains found near those of another young private there at Fort Hood that disappeared. Hood claimed they didn't know anything about it. Well, he turns up dead and buried, you know, in the shadows of Fort Hood, not far from the Army base. His name, Gregory Wendell Morales.

Do we know a COD on Morales yet, Levi Page? And where, in relation to Morales' remains, were these new remains discovered? Nancy, we do not know how Morales died. We don't know the cause of death yet. But what we do know is that over the weekend, 30 volunteers from Texas EquiSearch, a very respected search group, found remains. Near the remains were 23-year-old soldier Gregory Morales was found June 19th. He went missing in August of 2019. We don't know whose remains they were. They're keeping everything very close to the vest. Joining me right now, a special guest, the leader of Texas Equal Search.

You found those remains, Tim Miller. Tim Miller, before I get into how you got involved in Vanessa Gimm's disappearance, tell me about how your team found the second set of remains. Well, the remains were found within walking distance of Gregory, but we are not the ones that actually found them. It was actually somebody else called a tip-in, and that's how they were found while we were searching. Got it.

Yeah, but we're not. But Nancy, I have food for thought here, just something for you all to think about. When I was talking to Mayra, and I said, Mayra, what would Vanessa be wearing? And Mayra said, well, if she's working, she's going to be wearing her Army clothes. So you know what? We always want to think about the last person that's seen her.

We really got big question marks right now. Why, if she was working, she was wearing the clothes that the last person said that she was wearing? And we don't believe that is credible information. People in the military, when they're working their work, they're wearing their army clothes. She said she would have those other clothes underneath her army clothes. So when she decided to go jogging, then she would take her army clothes off. The question is, did she leave on her own from that armory to go to lunch? Well, I'm telling you, we don't think that is the case.

Was she last seen by somebody else? We don't think that was the case neither. Our thoughts are now she never left that armory on her own. Straight back out to Natalie Kawan, the lawyer for Vanessa Gaines' family. Our thoughts are now she never left that armory on her own. Straight back out to Natalie Kawan, the lawyer for Vanessa Gims' family. Natalie, let's clear up those very, very insightful questions by Tim Miller. At the very beginning, Natalie, I asked, what was she wearing? I was told black leggings, athletic leggings that she might go jogging in. And I asked, why did she have on her uniform? And I was told that it was okay for her not to

wear her uniform that day. Do you know the answer to that? Yeah, she was actually off that day. Someone called her into work. That's the most troubling part. They won't provide us with the name of the person who quote unquote called her into work she was supposed to go hiking that afternoon with her friend on the base they were going to go out for a hike so she definitely had a day planned ahead of her she was only supposed to come in for a couple hours to do something on her day off and that's when she disappeared okay a couple of couple of questions. Was the friend she was to go hiking with male or female? A male. Has he been questioned? Yeah, I spoke to him too. Has he been questioned by police or Fort Hood authorities? I understand he's been questioned

several times by agents, CID agents. Okay. And who called her in on her day off? Well, they won't provide that to us. Actually, they didn't even provide that information to me about him being questioned. I had to ask him about that. I'm very curious. I mean, think about it. Karen Smith, it's her day off, and she gets called in,

and coincidentally, on the day she gets called in, she goes missing. Yeah, that doesn't ring as coincidental to me at all, Nancy. When you're called in to work, there's a specific reason for that. A plane needs to be turned around for deployment. A windshield cracked. Something happened that needs to be repaired. They don't have the manpower.

They need you to come in and help. If she was called in to help with something, then they know exactly who called her in and the reason why. If there was something different, then they need to either investigate the person who called her in. That's one of the first place they need to start because that person may have been the last person to see her. You know, another question regarding the discovery of these remains. I'm trying to determine if any other items were found, clothing, personal items, anything like that. Tim Miller, Texas Equal Search, do we know? Yeah, his clothes were found.

His ID was found. And, of course, it's been investigated on who did this, but it 100% was foul play. Back to Dr. Chris Sperry, former chief medical examiner for the state of Georgia. Dr. Sperry, at this point, do you believe that tracker dogs should be able to track Vanessa's route off Fort Hood if she ever even left Fort Hood? It's been, as long as it's been, I'd give it about a 50-50 chance. They might be able to track her,

but it's very difficult. And also, if she walked there, I mean, if she traveled there under her own ability, it would be much easier to track unless, except if she was carried, if she was brought there by someone else, then her, you know, leaving scent trails for dogs would be very, very slim. To Tim Miller, I understand that Texas EquiSearch said it found items on Saturday that could be linked to Vanessa. Is this true? We're anxiously waiting for lab reports to come back. Can you tell us what the items were? Well, you know, there was actually a witness that seen something. And we can't disclose that, but I think that we actually found something that a witness

seen. So everybody was excited, the Texas Rangers, the military, the game wardens. There was a lot of people out there, so we're anxiously waiting for lab reports to come back. On the item that you found, could you tell us where you found it? We found that by that river, that Leon River, which is 26 miles away. Our fear is that she was thrown in that river. We are going back tomorrow, and we've got miles and miles of river to do. We know that if she was thrown in that river, that, of course, by now her body would be decomposed.

It's impossible to get a boat down there. We're actually going to have 10 kayaks we feel as though hopefully maybe if it rained three days afterwards maybe if her little body was in there then when the water went down she could be on a shoreline or maybe we could find somewhere close possibly caught up and because there's many trees and branches and debris in there. Tim, where does Leon empty? It empties into, it actually goes to a dam for Lake Belton. And, of course, at the dam area, it's very deep.

We actually had our big boat in our sonar, and we sonar'd all of that Lake Belton. So we don't think she made it to, if she all of that lake belt so we don't think she made it to if she was thrown in that river we don't think she made it to the lake we're only hoping that we can find some more evidence that we can find her clothes or with little god's luck maybe we can find part of her or all of her so we're uh yeah we're heading back out today, and we've got a lot of work ahead of us. Tim Miller, I know you've been working around the clock to you and everyone joining us right now. I want to thank you because everything we do could help in some small, some tiny way in finding Vanessa. Tip line 212-941-8300. Repeat, 214-941-8300. 214-941-8300.

Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.