Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KILLER DAD CHRIS WATTS: "GENDER REVEAL PARTY MADE ME A KILLER”

Episode Date: May 18, 2026

Newly revealed text messages between Shanann Watts and a friend reveal her heartbreak as her marriage falls apart.  Shanann canceled a gender reveal party planned for August 7, about a week before she was strangled by her husband.  She had splurged over $800 on a cake, cookies, party supplies and flowers Then texts between the husband and wife revealed the collapsing marriage. Shanann wrote “Chris told me last night he’s scared to death about this third baby and he’s happy with just Bella and Celeste and doesn’t want another baby."   She then said she thought Chris was having an affair.     Days later, Shanann and her two daughters were dead. Joining Nancy Grace today: Cheryln Cadle -  Author of a new book “Christopher Watts a Failed Life," “The Murders of Christopher Watts” and “The Many Faces of Christopher Watts: A 5-year Update”, website: www.cherylncadle.com  Dr. Geri-Lynn Utter - Clinical Psychologist, Author of “Mainlining Philly: Survival, Hope and Resisting Drug Addition,” and “Aftershock: How Past Event Shake Up Your Life Today”, and Producer of “Utter Nonsense,” a documentary of exploration of addition and severe mental illness, available to stream on Apple TV and Prime Video, website:drgerilynnutter.com, Instagram & Facebook: DrGeriLynnUtter Dr. Kendall Crowns  - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Host of Podcast "Mayhem in the Morgue”, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)  Mark Peper – Criminal Defense Attorney, The Peper Law Firm; X: @PeperLawFirm Dave Mack  - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories'  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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It's a summer kickoff thing. Join today at Simonplus.com. Rewards program Terms Apply. See Simonplus.com for details. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Does a gender reveal party push killer dad, Chris Watts, to murder his pregnant wife, Shanan, and his two little girls, Bella and Celeste? Is that what set him off?

That's no defense. I was going to have a gender reveal party. So my only choice was to annihilate my entire face. family? I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. I'm calling because I'm concerned about a friend of mine. You have to trust me. I did nothing to them and to my beautiful wife. I did nothing to her. But she won't answer the door. She won't answer phone calls. She won't answer text messages. The amount of love I have for my family is exponential and it's never going to die.

I had nothing to do with the disappearance. Bella and Celeste dead. Their body shoved into these thin cylindrical oil containers out in the middle of Anadarko oil fields where Chris Watts, killer dad worked tonight. We are learning more about what pushed killer dad Chris Watts over the edge, a gender reveal party. This is we also learned that Shanan struggled to get pregnant. She had a rare disease that seemingly precluded her from ever getting pregnant again. And then after a long struggle, she conceives. Then just after the gender reveal party invites go out, suddenly we find we uncover texts from Shannon Watts to her friend.

Let's see the text where she describes how her husband, so-called killer. dad, Chris Watts, no longer wants the baby. I haven't slept most of the week. My eyes burn from crying so much. I canceled the gender reveal. Nikki's going to tell me today, the gender of the baby, I need happy news right now. I said to him, how is this? A few months, we were so intimate and what I thought in love when I left. He said he had a lot of time to think. He said he had a lot of time to think. This baby in my belly deserves his full love either way. He came in the room and said, you think it would be a great thing to have another baby? We talked it out a lot beforehand, and we agreed to do this.

You were so excited and happy. The friend says, I think he'll come to his senses and feel like an ass in a few months. Chanan, I grabbed his hand during the ultrasound, and he didn't grab back. The friend sends a crying emoji. Shanan, I cringed. He rejected sex the night we arrived here. Only thing I can think of, even though I don't think he has it in him, is another girl. Chris told me last night he's scared to death about this third baby,

and he's happy with just Bella and Celeste and doesn't want another baby. He only says just he loves the kids. Did he say he loves you? No, he asked me if the kids could go see his parents. I said, no, I'm standing my ground. They haven't made contact in four weeks. No show to her birthday party. These texts are heartbreaking.

We have also managed to dig up her little party that she had planned. And to Cheryl and Cato joining me, author of a brand new book, Christopher Watts, A Failed Life. she interviewed Watts ad nauseum I don't know how you did that you must have held your nose still in contact with him her other book

The Murders of Christopher Watts and the many faces of Christopher Watts you know Cheryl thank you so much for being with us tonight I am looking over her receipts and it's breaking

my heart she had the whole party arranged She went to Whole Foods. She had edible arrangements. You know what those are? That's when they put like fruit on a stick in little shapes. She had already bought the flower arrangements at Longmont Florist. I'm looking at her receipts right now.

She went to Party City and bought all the decorations. She bought fruit and cheese and all sorts of food at Costco. It just, I don't know. know. It's, it just hurts to see how excited she was, Sherilyn, and in her excitement, her excitement about the gender reveal party, and she'd already bought everything for it. And then he says he doesn't want the baby. What happened? Well, partially what happened is his girlfriend. He felt like he wanted another life. He was happy when the Shanan left. And that's about the time he started talking with his girlfriend, Nikki.

And by the time they had six weeks to spend together, he didn't want his family anymore. It was, it turned into a... Hold on just a minute. Let me understand this. You said when Shanan left, where did Shanan gay, Sherilyn Cato? She went to North Carolina to visit her family and his family, just to spend some summer time with them, take the girls for a few weeks. and spend time with the grandparents. It was a very innocent. Okay, let me understand this to Dr. Geraldine Utter,

joining us, clinical psychologist specializing in psychological evaluations within the justice system, author of Mainlining Philly, author of Aftershock, How Past Events Shake Up Your Life Today, and producer of utter nonsense and documentary. Dr. Gerle, thanks for being with us. So she takes the children,

Shanan takes the children for a vacation, she's back in a few weeks, and in a few weeks time, he's completely forgotten about the family and wants to be with his lover and wants to get rid of the baby? Yeah, I mean, I know it sounds outrageous. You would think most people would just opt for something

called divorce or separation, but it's clear that there was what we call like a psychological detachment. So he had been over that six-week period fantasizing about this new life with this new woman. And what happens a lot of times, or in this particular case, is he started to look at his family more or less as an obstacle and not as something that he wanted to be a part of anymore. He was completely entrenched in this fantasy life. And as time progressed, he became more resentful of the fact that he had a family. And he

started to compartmentalize. So you start to separate the two worlds. And the one world was his previous family, and now this new world is this woman and this relationship, and that's what he wanted. So, you know, as you read the text messages, him refusing to hold her hand, him refusing to give her a hug, it's very clear that he started to literally, emotionally and psychologically detached from the relationship because he was focused on being with this other woman. Compartmentalize. I don't know, Dr. Gerald and Utter, you make it sound so normal. He compartmentalized. It seems to me like he cheated on his wife and wanted her to get rid of the baby, baby Nico, their first baby boy.

Absolutely he did. But when I say this, I'm not saying it, I'm not saying it casually and I don't want to come off as thinking that, you know, psychology explains this. I mean, Chris Watts is clearly a very disturbed individual. I don't want to take away from that. What he did is not the norm. But when you analyze his behavior, and I'm sure, you know, Cheryl knows. this more than more than anyone, that's exactly what he did. In his mind, in his psyche, he separated. He separated his one life that he had that he didn't want anymore and went in this direction and

completely emotionally detached from the family, which provided him the opportunity to engage in such a violent act. Again, Chris Watts, as far as I know, and I've studied, was not an outwardly violent individual. This was something that was clearly premeditated because they were an They were no longer a family he wanted to get rid of them. And that's exactly what he started to do emotionally in order to be able to, you know, complete such a heinous act. Sweetie, I like that shirt. Really? Really?

That's awesome. So pink means... That's just the test. I know. They're just because the pink is going to be girls. I don't know. Just the test. That's awesome.

That sure sounded half-hearted. That's awesome. Okay, straight out to Dave Mac. Dave Mac joining me, Crime Stories, investigative reporter. We are now learning about claims that a gender reveal party pushed killer dad, Chris Watts, over the edge.

Like, is that some type of a defense? I didn't want the gender reveal party. I couldn't take the stress. So my only alternative was to kill my wife children. You know, Nancy, at this point, everything that comes out of that man's mouth is just ridiculous. But yeah, that is what is being suggested now is that, think about it, Nancy, on August 7th,

August 7th, Shannon is so excited about the gender reveal party and finding out the gender of the baby that she spends $860 on party supplies, the cake, cookies, all of this. That's a lot of money for a gender reveal party. But Nancy, that's August 7th, the very next day. She cancels the party. They had 50 people that were already invited. She disinvited them the very next day. Not even 24 hours after buying all of this stuff,

she cancels the gender reveal party. So what took place on August the 7th into August the 8th? Well, apparently, that's where Chris Watts decided, I don't want another baby. I'm good with Celeste and Bella. The shocking truth, Nancy, is that we know what took place after the fact. But all I'm picturing in my head every time we do this is little Bella singing the hero song and what he does to his wife and his girls in real time, August 7th and 8th through the 13th.

I mean, Cheryl and Cato, the embarrassment that Shanan must have suffered when she has to call all our friends and call off the gender. reveal? I'm sure she was embarrassed, but honestly, I think Shanan was just totally blindsided that something had really changed in her husband. I mean, when she was away at her parents towards the end of that time, she would try to call Christopher and she couldn't get a hold of him. She felt something was wrong. By this time, she was four months pregnant, and had gotten through a lot of morning sickness, was starting to feel better, was happy to come home and spend time with him and all that while he was literally planning in his head what he could do to get rid of

them and i wanted to say one thing not to blame his girlfriend this is not what i mean but about a week before shenan came home he had his girlfriend to his house and they were talking about having a family someday and she told him i want to have your first son and And I think that had a lot to do with and has had why he all of a sudden didn't want the son he had coming. If it had been another girl, he might have been different. He also had been told by his family that he didn't need another one. It was too much that he didn't really want a third child. What do you mean he didn't need another one?

It's too much. If he was thinking of having a baby with his mistress, well, that's a third baby. So that doesn't make sense. Hold on just a moment. You said, I don't want to blame the girlfriend. Let me understand something, Cheryl and Cato. Didn't the other girlfriend know he was married with two children? She did, absolutely.

But she was also being told, according to her. What is the problem with blaming her? Well, according to her, which I think that she's pretty naive to not realize that's probably what every man tells a woman when he's having an affair with her. But according to Christopher, he had told her that they were getting separated and probably divorced. So he also told his girlfriend that he was living in the basement. That when he was home, he would take care of the children, then he would go downstairs to sleep. And that did happen a couple of times, I think, but that's not how things really were.

So, you know, it's definitely to me, it's a mix of. her pulling him because she was. She was pulling him to her. And I don't believe she meant for him to kill his family, but I think she said get rid of Shan, get rid of the family and come with me. I don't think she meant kill them. I think she probably meant leave them. But he's very simple-minded when it comes to things like this. He's been used to doing whatever the women in his life tell him to do. It's like he couldn't think of his own. And I know that sounds like Like excuses. That's trying to sound like it's the women in his life's fault, and it's not.

It's his fault. You spoke, you've spoken so many hours with so-called killer dad, Chris Watts. And it's my understanding. He explained to you about a big argument they had right before she went on the trip. Yes. Well, it was right when she came home from the trip, I think. I have to look back in my letters, but she had suspected that something was going on. And he walked up to the bedroom, they got into an argument, and she said, I hope whoever this is, they're worth it.

You've got beautiful children. We have another one on the way. And now this, you know, what's going on? I hope that they're worth it. And she took a pillow and shoved it at him and said, get out, get out of the room. And so he went downstairs and got on the phone with his girlfriend. So it's just he had no intentions of staying with Shanan Why he didn't choose the separation or divorce

I don't know I don't know why that is He blames it on a lot of different things when you talk to me I want to get back to the new theories if somehow Again is all Shanan Bella and Celeste's fault that he murdered them To Dave Mack the preparations for the gender reveal party. Now, theories emerging that that pushed him over the edge. That is not a motive for murder.

Tell me about the receipts that you have reviewed. Well, Nancy, the receipts for this gender reveal party show that Shadette Watts was really planning a big day. Again, remember, we have 50 people coming. A custom cake has been ordered. Cookie arrangements. made in specific arrangements of cookies so that it'd be just that much more exciting. You've got the flowers.

She ordered very specific flowers to be spread throughout this party area. Decorations, supplies. She purchases food for all of the guests. The party was planned for August 19th at the Watts family home there in Frederick, Colorado. But Nancy, again, remember the dates here. August 7th, Shane Ann is. spending $860 on all of this stuff for this reveal party. She's stoked, man. This is their third child. She doesn't know that this baby is going to be a boy. They don't know that. That's what the

gender reveal party is all about. It's on August the 7th when after she's gone through all of this that Chris Watts says, I don't want another baby. And that's when she starts putting everything together and within a 24-hour period, it goes from, I'm having a gender reveal party, We're no, no party, no nothing. This is over. That's a huge, huge turnaround. At 2 in the morning last night because we were out of town together and we were on the way back from the airfield. And she's pregnant.

And I haven't been able to get a hold of her this morning. And I've gotten to her house and her car is there and stuff like that. But she won't answer the door. She won't answer phone calls. She won't answer text messages. And I'm just really, really concerned. And she had a doctor's appointment this morning and she didn't go to it. and I'm just, I don't know what to do.

I've called him and talked to him, and he said that she went on a play date with her other two daughters, but like if she went on a play date, they're both in car seats. Why would she not take her car? Okay, so Dave Mack, there he is, blaming Shanan for the murders, the disappearances of Bella and Celeste. Did you hear that? She hurt them.

Then I freaked out on her. And then the detective says, okay, well, then, Where are your girls? Did they leave? I mean, they're what, two and three years old? Did they leave after that? And then Watts just shrugs. He, even after murdering her, is blaming her.

First, it's the gender reveal party's fault. Now she's the one that hurt the children? It is the most ridiculous blame game. But Chris Watts has never taken any kind of responsibility for anything he's done, Nancy. It's always blame the girls. Blame Shanan. He even goes so far as later on blaming the girlfriend. So yeah, he's blaming this murder that took place.

He's blaming by claiming that Shanette, claiming that the wife he murdered, carrying a 15-week-old baby in her belly, is that she was abusive towards the girls, and that's why he had to take her out. It was all her fault. Boggles the mind that he could even say that out. Get rewarded just for shopping with Simon Plus.

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Every day is another job. chance to see Harry Styles. Very excited to see you with the show. Kiss all the time. Disco Occasionally available now. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me just follow through Chris Watts's claims that Shanan is really the guilty party again. So is he claiming that Shanan tried to hurt the girls. So he attacked Shanan. Then how did two little girls, Bella and Celeste, age of two and three, end up stuffed down oil cylinders in the oil fills of Anna Darko, where he, Chris Watts, worked. Are they in the tanks? Can somebody who doesn't know what they're doing on opening those?

Okay. What's in the tanks? Some mixture of oil and water. Do you sound down here? Mm-hmm. What's that from? That was what? What about the girl's?

What was they wrapped in? Just in their blankets? No, their blankets and toys and stuff go. Straight out to a veteran or something. Straight out to a veteran and renowned chief medical examiner joining us tonight. Dr. Kendall Crowns. Dr. Kendall Crowns is the, as I said, chief medical examiner in Tarrant County.

He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine, at TCU. He is a star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the morgue. Dr. Kendall Crowns, all of this because of a gender reveal party, that pushed him over the edge to a triple murder of his wife, his two little children, and the unborn baby boy, Nico. Describe what happened to the little girls. So each little girl, the older one is Bella, the younger one is Celeste. they appear to have been smothered. Bella, the younger one, I think, was smothered second. She actually has more injuries to her inside of her mouth.

She bites her tongue. She bites the sides of her cheek. I think it's because she saw her sister be smothered by her father first, and she knew what was coming, so she struggled more. Usually with smothering cases, when you have an adult and a child, they'll pinch the nose and cover the mouth or just cover the mouth and nose all at once, and then hold the pressure there and the child will suffocate from lack of oxygen

within a couple of minutes. And then once they were dead, he then shoved them into the oil tanker and each child has abrasions on their body from actually being shoved through this small opening in the oil taker and it kind of tearing or rubbing the skin as he's pushing them down. So it probably wasn't easy for him to shove them into the oil tanker as well

and he caused damage to their bodies after he had killed them. What do you mean he caused damage to their bodies after he killed them? Well, when he's pushing them through that small hole, their bodies probably weren't fitting really well. And then as they were pushing through the metal of that opening, it caused scraping and abrasions of the skin. But it happened after death, so they get this kind of tan yellow appearance on them. And that's from the body being dead. Hearts no longer beating. And it's pushing up against something as it's being shoved through that hole.

I find this photo, while accurate to be a little misleading, Dr. Kendall Crowns, if you look at it, it looks much bigger than it is because it was not wide enough to put the girls in there even vertically, and it tore the skin off of their arms as he shoved them down into it. I agree with you. And even in this picture, it looks like it's got an eight, inch diameter so that the even the larger child the older child was probably harder to fit through he probably had to manipulate the arms in some way and then push or even stick his foot on top of the

child's head as he's pushing the child through that hole it it wasn't going to be an easy process to shove them in there what happened to shenan dr kendall crowns so the children were smothered which is basically hands over the nose and mouth until they died instead she was strangled he there's bruising on her neck there's bruising on the muscles of the neck as well so he placed pressure on her neck collapsing the jugular and carotid jugular veins carotid arteries and then causing her not to get oxygen to her brain but he manually strangled her with her hands until she died wrapped her in a sheet and then buried her in a shallow grave where she laid there for several days decomposing we are showing you the shallow grave where shenan watts was buried in the same oil fields

near her two little girls. Dr. Kendall Crowns, what is coffin birth? So, coffinbirth is what happens when the body is decomposing gases form, and these gases form in the abdominal region in the soft tissues, and they cause swelling of the skin. Well, in the abdomen, the gases are forming and creating this pressure in the abdomen with the intestines and the stomach. It all starts pushing down on the uterus, and that forces the baby. in the uterus out through the vaginal canal and basically makes them give birth after death.

And it's just basically the pressures from the decomposition gases causing the fetus to be expelled out of the uterus. I just don't get it. I don't get how now, even in death, Chris Watts is somehow blaming Shannon Watts and a gender reveal party. joining us now, a veteran defense attorney who shot to fame in his coverage of the Alex Murdoch double murder trial. It's Mark Pepper, joining us out of South Carolina. He is the founder of the Pepper Law firm. Mark, I don't think this would ever work in a court of law.

I frankly don't understand why Chris Watts did not get the death penalty because it's triple murder. plus if you count the unborn baby, which in a lot of jurisdictions you do, that's four dead people. What, were they just not valuable enough to seek the death penalty? But that said, the gender reveal party made me do it, Mark Pepper. I mean, even you, even you might have a hard time selling that to a jury with a straight face. I tend to agree. That would be a tough one. When we're talking about motive in these types of instances, you know, the prosecution is looking for the why. and everything that we've read, you know, is pointing towards, and really what he wrote in his own book, right, is pointing towards this gender reveal party.

Now, if true, well, that would be more akin to some type of manslaughter charge, where in the heat of passion, you got upset that there was going to be this party. You didn't want to host, didn't want to have, and so you kind of snapped. Well, they didn't go down that manslaughter route. Wait a minute. Somebody correct me if I just misheard. maybe my earpiece isn't working because I'm pretty sure I heard Mark Pepper, who is a veteran defense lawyer, say, well, there's his defense, voluntary manslaughter. He didn't want to have the party. He didn't want to have a party. That should have been his defense. That is not a defense. Mark Pepper, you've won a lot of cases,

and I'm pretty sure the New York jurisdiction in South Carolina, Snap is not a defense. a defense. I snapped. I snap 50 times a day, but I don't kill anybody. Snap. That's the name of a show on oxygen. I snapped. Snap is not a defense, pepper. Well, but Nancy Snap is an element of manslaughter. In the heat of passion, you didn't want to go to this party, you snapped. And so you went out and committed these heinous crimes. That is manslaughter. That should have been what he was convicted of. Go for a drive. Go to wild wings. And, watch TV and have some wings, whatever you want. But do you have to kill your wife, your two little girls, ages two and three, and the unborn baby boy?

Now he's talking to his mistress about she wants to have his first boy. You know where she can stick that, and it's where the sun don't shine. I want to have your first baby boy, knowing he's still married, but she's not my problem. He's my problem. Mark Pepper, now listen, you know, you have to get renewed every year. right by the South Carolina Bar. Now, what are they going to say when they hear you claim, I didn't want to go to a party.

It's the defense and triple murder. I didn't want to go to the party. So I had to kill everybody throwing it? That is 100% of the defense. That is what we, we, well, that's manslaughter. Nancy, if I was recommending anything to my client, I would say we're not pleading guilty to murder. This is a quintessential manslaughter case where there,

it could be a number of different instances where obviously this party caused some type of heat of passion to come over him. And he absolutely snapped. That is the definition of manslaughter. If I was representing him in Colorado, that would have been our defense. We would have pled guilty to manslaughter all day long. But I never would have advised him to plead guilty to murder because what motive was there? What motive could there possibly have been to do this to your own children? It's akin to a lot of the cases we see around here where it's not the job of the defense to explain. away their actions. The burdens on the state. And if you have a valid reason where you just lose it, that is the quintessential defense of manslaughter. And that should have been the deal. What? What? Did you just say a valid reason to, quote, lose it, which is also not, and another thing, Mark, Pepper, could you please stop saying the word snap? Because it's making my ears bleed. They're bleeding. Because you know and I know I snapped is not a defense. You just also said, and they always use this example in law school, and I wish they would quit. And now I'm perpetuating it by using it myself.

Voluntary manslaughter comes with heat of passion, anger that's uncontrollable, such as, here's the example, a man comes home from work and finds his wife with another man in bed. They always use that. The wife's always the bad person. That said, so he shoots them both dead. and a jury is supposed to believe, well, she had it coming. He was so angry he couldn't control himself. You're equating your wife planning a gender reveal party and going to Costco and buying

cheese trays and fruit snacks. That's, that is the legitimate, grounded reason that he, quote, lost it because his wife went to Costco. Seriously? Are you really saying that? that you know, Nancy, the reason for the heat of passion, the reason for losing all control, it doesn't have to be a legitimate one. That is up for the jury to decide. My point is that be it, you come home in the law school example and your wife's cheating on you and in the heat of passion, you take an act, that that's just the same under the eyes of the law as

someone planning a party that you do not want to attend, that you did not approve. If he, if in his mind at that time that was the issue then that's a legitimate defense for him to at least pursue the manslaughter lester included offense which is what i would have recommended now that being said when you're looking at three four i guess it was four death penalties all right well then maybe you start changing courses and you try to remove that by pleading guilty to murder but at the end of the day the valid defense the legitimate reason could have been a manslaughter charge under the lester included defense. You go to trial and the murders, the jury is given the murder to consider, but they're also given the lesser included offense of manslaughter, an act in the heat of passion that

essentially drove you to commit these crimes. That should have been, and very could, easily could have been, his defense. Okay. He's actually saying this apparently with a straight face, and it's kind of like if Mark Pepper says it over and over and over enough that we're going to believe it. Okay, because I'm looking around here in the studio and everybody's starting to actually nod their heads, yes. I don't know what happened to you people. But that said, let me throw another wrench at you. Mark, as in the Sean Puffy Combs case, where the Fed said basically to the states, you failed and they take over the case of Sean Puffy Combs. We also see that happening in the Luigi Mangione case where the feds are conducting a dual prosecution at the same time as the state.

In this case, is there any way the feds can intervene and seek the death penalty on Chris Watts? Because Colorado, we're talking about the death penalty. Colorado doesn't have the death penalty. You can basically kill as many people as you want to there, and you're never going to get the death penalty unless the feds intervene. What does it take for the feds to intervene? Oh, I thought of another one. They also intervened on Jared. Remember, Jared, the subway pitch guy? They intervened on that as well because he crossed state lines with the purpose of illegal sex with minors. So that's just three off the top of my head. There are many, many more. Why can't they intervene in this

Mark Pepper? Yeah, they can, Nancy. And another one is the Michael Slager case involving Walter Scott. The feds came and took that charge over here in South Carolina. So you're right. There's many more examples. The answer is with a stroke of a pen, they could come and take it over. There's nothing preventing them from doing it and seeking the death penalty at the federal level.

But the reality of it is that there's a lot more politics involved than simply the stroke of a pen, especially in a midterm years such as this. It is possible that the federal government, the DOG could come in and say, Wait a minute. What do you mean? The feds won't intervene because you said it's at midterm. Are you throwing this into the political pot, the cesspool of politics? Absolutely.

Absolutely. We see it all the time. We see all the time where objective decisions are overridden by political vendettists. Certain things such as who's in charge at the DOJ, under the current presidency, such as who's running the AG's office or the United States Attorney's Office in Colorado. Politics play a part in these things. They shouldn't, but the reality is they do. It could, the DOJ could come in and say, stop what you're doing.

Double Jeopardy doesn't apply here because under the Pettit waiver, we're going to go to the GAJ. We're going to make sure that this guy gets what he deserves and the feds at the DOJ. We believe he deserves death. There's nothing preventing them from doing it. I'm just simply making the point that sometimes it's not as easy as the objective decision to take pen to paper and seek it. There are lots of other reasons, mostly political reasons, that we don't see that done as often as probably it should be. You know, another thing, Mark Pepper, is that this was no big surprise to Chris Watts because his wife was fighting lupus and very, very difficult for her. her to conceive. Hold on, Mark Pepper, from the Pepper law firm in South Carolina to Dr. Kendall

Crowns is joining us, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County. Dr. Kendall Crowns, what is it about lupus that makes it so difficult for women to conceive? So, lupus is an autoimmune disorder in which your immune system attacks your own body tissues, your muscles, your joints, and even your uterine lining. So when it is attacking the uterine lining, it makes at a hostile environment for the implantation of the fertilized eggs. So women with lupus often struggle with fertility issues because their immune system is basically preventing them from getting pregnant. Get rewarded just for shopping with Simon Plus. Don't miss Memorial Day sales at Simon Premium Outlets and Mills.

You can get points at scores of stores, access to exclusive offers and exciting surprises. You've got an extra day off, so make it pay off with the best deals from brands you love all in one place. It's a summer kickoff thing. Join today at Simonplus.com. Rewards program Terms Apply. See Simonplus.com for details. Experience Harry Styles live in London, England at Wembley Stadium. This is Harry Styles.

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Kiss all the time, disco occasionally, available now. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Shanan, Bella, Celeste. If you're out there, just come back. Like, if somebody has her, just please bring her back. I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again.

This house is not complete without anybody here. Please bring her back. Okay, well, if you got him back right now, at that point, you'd have to dig them up out of the shallow grave where Shanan had coffin birth to your son, Nico, after you put her there,

and you'd have to get the two little girls at those cylindrical oil containers where you crammed them down, rubbing the skin off of their arms. Can I see that one more time from our friends at Denver 7? Shanan, Bella, Celeste. If you're out there, just come back. Like, if somebody has her, just please bring her back.

I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again. This house is not complete without anybody here. Please bring her back. Sherilyn Cato is with us tonight. He was spent hours and hours interviewing, Watts. When I look at him, he literally makes me sick. Did you hear that? If you're out there, if you're out there, just come back. Like, if somebody has her, just please bring her back. I need to

see everybody. Who is this man? Yes. I want to say something if I could. This was not a moment of passion that he killed Shanan. I have letters. I would like for you some time to see my letters, Nancy from him. I have letters where he tells me what he did. And he says when he put the girls to bed that night, he knew that was the last time he would be kissing his babies good night because he was going to kill them. He had been planning for two weeks how to do this. He told me that he took them to a birthday party the day before. And he laid at the pool while the girls were playing in this this little pool, he laid there daydreaming in his head what he was going to do to his wife and children. This was not a moment of passion at all. He knew what he was doing. He planned what he was doing.

I have it in his own handwriting. This was not a manslaughter. This was a cold-blooded murder. Cheryl and Cato, hold on just a moment. I've got to go to Mark Pepper on that out of South Carolina. Mark, did you hear that? I would bring on Sherlyn Cato. State's witness may be number three, because this gender reveal party pushed me over the edge as total BS technical legal term. Because he writes in his own handwriting

that he planned it lying by the pool getting a 10. Well, and I appreciate that. With all due respect to your guest, you know, that's evidence that may or may not have been entered to the trial this case. That's what the rules of evidence allowed. Now, I understand statements against interest typically are allowed in a case against the defendant, but again, the foundation would have been laid. We simply don't know whether that evidence would have been admissible in a murder trial candidly. Oh, dear Lord in heaven, are you going to try

to say something, Mark Pepper? Like, that's not his handwriting. Right. Sherilyn Cato, just such a liar, isn't she? She's gone to that jail and listened to this guy, whine for hundreds of hours. I don't know how she stood it. You know, I think I do know how she stood it. Mark Pepper, have you ever hung out the laundry before you had a dryer we did, hung it out in the backyard with those clips, you know,

the clothes lined with, just to do them right here. She'd have to hold her nose to listen to this guy. You know what? I'll ask her, Sherilyn, did you hear that? Mark Pepper thinks, your letters from Chris Watts should be attacked on authenticity. Like, what? You hid under

the blanket on your bed with a flashlight, the letters that nobody would find out? Well, actually, they had been validated as being real. I have the envelopes that they came in, the dates they were mailed, the dates correspond with the letters. And his handwriting is very recognizable because he writes every girl and female all over the country who's got little love letters from him, said that they're not real. It's just so far from it.

There's no way they would hold them. in court. My letters are definitely the things that he set over and over. You just gave me a whole other wave of nausea, Sherilyn Cato. Dr. Geraldine Utter. Did you hear what she said, love letters from women all over the country?

Yeah, this isn't a new concept. We've seen this with Sierra colors like Ted Bundy in the past where even Luigi Mangione, like people become kind of enamored. And Wade Wilson's another one. Women become enamored with, you know, the bad boy type or whatever you want to

classify. or call it, and that's strictly fantasy world. Clearly, these women don't understand or appreciate it. Oh, wait, wait, just hold on, Dr. Jeryl. I'd like to ask the control room in New York to please search their conscience. Why are you showing what you obviously think is a haughty shot? Take that down right now. He is not hot. He is not sexy. He's a killer. He killed his wife and his children and his unborn baby. Okay, Dr. Gerald, please go ahead. So what I was basically just trying to say, Nancy, is that it's a commonality.

We see this with other serial killers. You have Ted Bundy. You have Wade Wilson. We have this gentleman, Chris Watts. People become enamored with, quote, unquote, the bad boy. These folks or these women do not realize that they're actually talking to somebody with it, who's a psychopath, more or less. And, you know, they're exchanging, they're entertained.

It's a form of entertainment. They haven't been afforded the opportunity to see who these people really are. Another thing that I just wanted to mention, Nancy, as I'm listening to all this and a crime of passion and all, this was very clearly premeditated and planned. Let's not kind of, you know, dismiss that in any type of way. He planned on doing this and then Cheryl and, you know, obviously confirm that. But what I want to call out is it's not like he snapped all of a sudden and then decided to do this. this is a personality type of presentation that's been with him for a very long time since he was, you know, a younger person or whatever, meaning he doesn't have the capability to truly love and he doesn't have the capability to be remorseful. And when you have a personality organization that way, when you can't empathize, when you can't, you know, be sympathize and when you can't truly love, it makes it very easy to do what he did. And that's the part that we really

need to pay attention to. This is someone who way before these murders and, you know, he was never violent before, but that doesn't discredit the fact that this is somebody who is incapable of true emotional connection to another human being, anyone, his daughters, his son, his wife. So that's something I think we really have to pay attention to is, yes, it happened probably when he was in his 30s, but this is who he has been throughout his life. The gender reveal party made me do it. And what's so crazy is to hear Mark Pepper talk. That's perfectly believable. Well, it's not believable to me. And tonight, I beg the feds to intervene in this case on behalf of Shanan Watts, Bella, Celeste, and Nico. Tonight, we remember an American hero, Officer Dylan Owen, Citronell, PD, Alabama, just 26, killed in the line of duty after two years on the force.

living behind grieving parents, Christy and Kenny. American hero officer Dylan Owen. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. Get rewarded just for shopping with Simon Plus. Don't miss Memorial Day sales at Simon Premium Outlets and Mills. You can get points at scores of stores, access to exclusive offers and exciting surprises. You've got an extra day off, so make it pay off with the best deals from brands you love all in one place.

It's a summer kickoff thing. Join today at Simonplus.com. Rewards program terms apply. See Simonplus.com for details. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.