Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Killer Dad Chris Watts gets fan mail and wants a do-over on his conviction while murdered Shanann's family gets death threats.

Episode Date: September 10, 2019

Killer dad Chris Watts is getting a lot of female attention even though he is in prison. Women are writing and asking to be able to visit with him. In the meantime, Shanann's parents are getting death threats and being stalked by trolls on the internet. With Nancy Grace to discuss the latest in this case: Darryl Cohen Former Assistant District Attorney, Defense Attorney; Joe Scott Morgan Forensics Expert; Dr Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst; Dr. Tim Gallagher, Medical Examiner for State of Florida; Alexis Terezchuck Entertainment Editor, Radaronline.com. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. My daddy is a hero. He helps me grow up strong. He helps me, um strong. He helps me snuggle too. He reads me books. He ties my shoes. If you're a hero, blue and blue, my daddy, daddy, it love you. Four-year-old Bella and her little sister Celeste both murdered along with their mother, Shanann Watts.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. That was four-year-old Bella sitting in the back seat of the family car singing a hero song for her father. And it was recorded by mom Shanann and put on Facebook. Did I mention pregnant mom Shanann before she was murdered? Now take a listen to Chris Watts speaking to investigators, telling them that maybe it was having sex with his wife. Maybe that was the trigger point to murdering her. I wonder if that last time with Shanann, having sex, had somewhat of a role in you thinking,

I gotta do something, I gotta say something, we gotta have a talk, something's gotta change. Is that accurate? Yeah, I just felt like it was maybe a trigger point or something like you hit the push button on a bomb and it just blows up. Something in my head was just like something was hurting me. I had to say something. Okay. So then exactly what did you say and what happened? So then I woke her up and I was like, hey, we just got to talk.

Okay. I told her I don't feel compatible. I don't feel like this is going to talk. I told her, I don't feel compatible. I don't feel like this is going to work. I don't want to. Can we cancel a trip to Aspen? She had booked a trip that week to go to some mystery four-star luxury hotel or something. Just the two of you or the whole family? Just me and her.

Okay. She had Amanda there to watch the kids that week that weekend or something okay and um i was like can we cancel that can we like do something like when i remember i even said can we move to brighton just to get away from like this house oh but like i'm not sure if that was like like in the beginning when the end of all the conversation or whatnot, that conversation went so many different ways. Like they've gone from like staying together to not staying together to just like all of the above.

Okay. Well, you just heard it from the horse's mouth killer dad, Chris Watts. Now let me understand this. So somewhere between having sex with his wife, his pregnant wife, who just comes home from an out of town trip, working to the bone during her pregnancy to support the family, somewhere between her coming home and him straddling her and murdering her between the sex and the murder, he decides somewhere in there, he just, he's just not in love with her anymore. He loves her enough to have sex with her, but he's just not in love with her anymore.

Okay. Take a listen to what else he said. That's what happened. What happened? She told me to get off her and I'm on the other side. Okay. Did you say she said something like you were her baby or something? That was before that. She was like, when I was straddling her, it was kind of like around her waist type deal. Why did you get on her? I just, when we got on the bed, that's just when I get on her? I just went and got on the bed. That's just when I got on.

Is that so she would listen to you? I felt like she could probably listen to me just laying beside her, but I got on top of her. And every time I think about it, I'm just like, did I know I was going to do that before I got on top of her? Really? That's an interesting thought, Chris. You don't know what you did. Just like, everything that happened that morning, I just don't know, like, I try to go back in my head, and I'm just like,

I didn't want to do this, but I did. He didn't want to do it, but he just did. I remember a couple, I was investigating their case, and the man shot the woman. Okay. And much, much like a situation like this one.

And he was asked during plea negotiations. She asked him to his face, why did you shoot me? He goes, I don't know, baby. You know, with me, an all-star panel, Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor turned defense attorney, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of Hollywood, and Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the state of Florida. Right now to Alexis Tereschuk, RadarOnline.com investigative reporter. Alexis, this is so self-indulgent, this interview they're having with killer dad Chris Watts, where he's talking about,

I don't know if I knew when I straddled her right then, was I going to kill her? To H-E-double-L with him. It doesn't matter to me. What is the latest? What can you tell me about Chris Watts' final photos he took of his wife and daughters just before he murdered them so he could start a new life with his mistress? What about these photos? Chris Watts has a series of photos that he said that he took before right before he killed them this was these girls on this last day the last day of their life he was alone with them because mommy shenan was out of town halfway across the country working so hard 15 weeks

pregnant far enough along in her pregnancy that she knew it was a boy they had a name picked out for this baby she was so excited to have another child with Chris. And she had just told everybody how in love they were. And then he blindsides her with the news that he is having an affair. She catches him while she is out of town. Her last days alive. She is out of town working so hard. She didn't want to leave those little girls.

They were her life. And she goes out of town and a credit card bill pops up for $50. And she thinks, what on earth is my husband doing? We don't have any money at all. Why is he at a restaurant spending $50 on dinner? That certainly isn't him alone and confronts him with it. So her last moments, hours on earth are her knowing that her husband has been cheating on her.

She's pregnant with their third child her husband has been cheating on her. She's pregnant with their third child. And this is how he treats her. So the pictures are the last photos that he has taken of these little girls, their very last day on earth. And he has these photos up in his prison cell. You know, I'm very curious. I'm looking at the photos, and one looks like Shanann in a swimsuit outside. And I'm saying she's by a pool because she doesn't have on any makeup. She's a natural beauty. And the other looks to me to be Bella, age 4. Her little sister Celeste is age 3 with a family dog.

Ew. Now I just pulled up a picture of him and his lover his mistress nicole cassinger you know daryl cohen former prosecutor turned defense attorney daryl cohen i've got a question how come he realizes he's not in love with her after he has sex with her if he's not in love with her why have have sex with her? That's an age-old question. Well, that's an answer that I can't give you. But obviously, Nancy, there are those who have sex just because sex is available. And maybe he wanted to make it his parting shot and say goodbye.

I would have settled for just a little wave at the door. And don't let the screen door hit you in the rear end on your way out once oh yeah could you get my boot out of your ass but you know that's a whole nother can of worms so you know i think we need to shrink uh dr tim gallagher renowned medical examiner for the state of florida i was just about to go to you but i gotta ask dr bethany a question i don't get it he says he's not in love with her he's planning a life with a mistress but I got to ask Dr. Bethany a question. I don't get it. He says he's not in love with her. He's planning a life with a mistress, but he manages to have sex with her. He cares enough about her to have sex with her just before he murders her dead. In the same bed, he just had sex with her. Well, I have a couple thoughts about that. One is that if you think of the profile of

the sociopath, they are very self-indulgent. They're very thrill-seeking. They only think about their own pleasure. And it might have been as pleasurable to have sex as it was to kill her. You know, that this was all an excited anticipation of a new idealized life he was going to have with his new girlfriend. And it put him in an aroused state, an excited state, and she was just an object to use at that point. The other thing about sociopaths is that they have very shallow emotional lives. So acts that they might take that would seem appear deep to you and me are not deep to them at all.

So sex is just like a masturbatory act. It's just perfunctory. It's not meaningful. It doesn't mean that they love the other person. It's just a self-gratifying gesture. Okay, I think what you just said was he used her. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Guess what, girls? Mommy has a baby in her belly. A baby! Are you guys excited?

Yeah! Yes? Are you really excited? Oh my Yes? Are you really excited? Oh, my goodness. Come give me a hug. Oh. Oh. I love you, girl.

I got the baby a hug. You want to give the baby a hug? I love you, Bella. That's Shanann Watts telling her two little girls, Bella and Celeste, ages 4 and 3, they're going to have a little baby brother, Nico. Now take a listen to another short clip where Shanann posted this. She surprised her husband, now known as Killer Dad Chris Watts, about the pregnancy. We did it.

I like that shirt. Really? Really. That's awesome. So pink means... That's just a test. I know. The pink is going to be girls?

I don't know. Just a test. That's awesome. Awesome. Just a test. That's awesome. Guess when you want to, it happens. Wow. Wow. Did you hear that last thing?

He goes, wow. Seems a little underwhelmed, huh? Really? Awesome. Okay, not exactly. You could tell in her voice. It's just a test that she was not happy with his reaction. And then shortly after that, Chris Watts is on another video, but this time he's being interviewed by Denver 7's Thomas Hoppow. I mean, it wasn't like her not to answer a phone call or a text.

And when her friend Nicole showed up at the door, I was just like, all right, something's up. And I came home, and it was like I walked into a ghost town. Like everything, she wasn't here, the kids weren't here. It was just like they were here, and then they were gone. Like Shanann, Bella, and Celeste, if you're out there, please just come home. Shanann, Bella, Celeste, if you're out there, just come back. If somebody has her, just please bring her back. I need to see everybody.

I need to see everybody again. This house is not complete without anybody here. Please bring her back. What a load of crap. That is killer dad Chris Watts. And if you look at his body language as he's standing on his front porch begging for the return of his two little girls and their pregnant mom, Shanann, it's just so contrived and so fake. With me, an all-star panel, Alexis Tereschuk, RadarOnline.com investigative reporter, Dr. Tim Gallagher, ME out of Florida, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert,

and defense attorney Daryl Cohen. So Alexis Tereschuk, we know now that the photos he had just taken of the girls and his wife, along with those of his mistress, were on his phone. And we're now seeing all of the pictures. But I understand that also the murder house has gone on sale it is it is up for auction but the auction has been delayed this is the home where investigators and prosecutors say that all of the children were both children were murdered and where Shanann was murdered and then he took them out in the middle of the night and he was caught on video by his neighbor's security camera putting bodies into the pickup truck and driving them away in the dark of the night. So this home, no one lives there anymore. They were very heavily in debt for this home, but it is going to go up

for auction, but the auction keeps getting delayed. Obviously, no one wants to live in a murder house. You know, I'm thinking back to Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida, where he says, I didn't know that I was going to strangle her. How long does it take to murder by strangulation, manual strangulation, an adult? Well, that's a good question, Nancy. When the hands are put around the neck and the blood supply to the brain is cut off, it takes about three minutes before irreversible brain damage occurs. And then after irreversible brain damage occurs, then death will follow shortly thereafter. So it takes a good three minutes to actually murder somebody by strangulation. Well, as a matter of fact, that was a test. Dr. Gallagher, take a listen to this. I just felt like it was,

I don't even want to say I felt like I listen to this i just felt like it was i don't even want to say i feel like i had to i just felt like there was already something in my mind that i wasn't planning that i was going to do it and i woke up that morning it was going to happen and i had no control of it you've never thought about it before it was just like i don't want like one like if i just like in the sentencing hearing that prosecutor said it takes two to four minutes for something like that to happen? Like, why can't I just let go? That's interesting. Was it feeling like it was in motion and you just couldn't stop it? Yeah, it was just like, I don't even want to know what she saw, what she looked back at me.

Did you look at her? How was she doing? She wasn't fighting maybe she was praying she was praying and not fighting back to joseph scott morgan forensic expert professor forensics jacksonville state University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet, what would you have expected to find in the room if she had fought back? Well, you know, one of the things that we would be looking for in a case like this is to see things like upturned furniture, things that are in great disarray, maybe things are broken. And also you think about like the bed sheets, this sort of

thing, is there blood there? Are there things that are kind of ripped apart and askew when you look in this otherwise orderly environment? You know, you have to look at things relative to crimes, the context, the abnormal in the presence of what is otherwise normal for our eyes. So anything that's going to stand out like that, Nancy. What we are learning is that he climbed, she didn't fight back. Listen. Did she grab your arms or were your arms pinned down? I don't remember. I don't think so. I don't think I moved toward my knees or around her arms or anything. It was just kind of like when I got on top of her and we started talking, that was it.

It was kind of like in my head, or in the back of my head, that was going to happen. And just at the end of the conversation, it was just like just like that's what happened i just wish i could have let go did it seem like it was that long three to four minutes how long did it seem for you almost kind of felt like it was i felt like it was longer almost it felt like time was standing still it's kind of like i had to stop my life. It's disappearing before my eyes, but it's just like I couldn't let go. Former prosecutor, current defense attorney Darrell Cohen, that's not helping him at all because he's saying it took two to four minutes.

That's plenty of time where he could have stopped. That's time to form premeditation. Oh, absolutely. And you and I both know that premeditation can be in an instant. But two to four minutes, he could have stopped over and over and over again. This guy is just pure evil. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner joining us out of Florida. Dr. Gallagher, could you break it down in regular people talk and explain what Shanann would have gone through as she was being

strangled, what the human body and psyche goes through. Well, absolutely. Normally when the hand is put on the neck and the arteries and veins are compressed and the airway is compressed, it won't take long for the person to pass out. Sometimes it takes 15, 30 seconds before a person will pass out. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're dead or they're dying. They can be revived at that point. If you go past that, then what we spoke about before, the brain cells start to die. The lungs don't receive the signal from the brain that they have to breathe, and then the person expires shortly thereafter.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. like I was shaking. I didn't know what had happened. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what I had done. I still live in that right state of mind. I don't think like I was in control of what I could think or what I could do at that point in time. And most people say like, well, I just called 911. Well, I was like, unless you're in that situation, you don't know what you would have done.

It's easy to play one-on-one quarterback. I agree with that. So what happened next? Is that what happened to Bella Kuhn? What'd she say? Did she hear something? Is that what she said? Obviously, I think.

Okay. What'd you tell her? She said, Mommy, I feel good. Mommy doesn't feel good. Well, that's an understatement because Mommy is dead. Pregnant Shanann Watts has just, quote, had sex with killer dad Chris Watts, and then he murders her after announcing to her he's not in love with her anymore. You know what's super creepy about that? It seems like he seemingly

enjoys recounting what happened and now the murder house of Chris and Shanann Watts and Frederick going to auction in Weld County in just a few days. This is after the murders of Shanann, Bella, and Celeste Watts. Their Frederick home is sitting emptied, abandoned. There are abandoned house notices taped to the front door, along with stuffed animals and balloons and flowers. The five-bedroom, four-bathroom house goes up for auction. According to what we have learned from Weld County trustee records, it's in default. The neighborhood has tried to move on, but they haven't been able to. Everyone goes by the home every day and thinks of the moment Chris Watts smothered his two little girls and forced their bodies into oil tanks at the fields of Anadarko. Not only that, at this hour,

Chris Watts having love letters pouring into the jail. I just don't understand how he enjoys recounting what happened to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst out of Hollywood. He tells detectives, actually, take a listen to him, what he tells detectives. She had a blue blanket. I gave you a blanket. So she arrived when she was 40? I put the blanket over her head. And that's how she passed. I couldn't breathe. I put the blanket over her head. I didn't want to, you know.

You know, I look outside every day. I'm like, what could we be doing right now? You know, I look outside every day, I'm like, what could we be doing right now? You know, right now I'd have a five-year-old, a three-year-old, and one might be a one-month-old son. And it'd be a boy. But it's like, right now it's just me. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I look out the window and I think I would have a five-year-old and a three-year-old and a beautiful wife. And I would have a one-month-old son. And now it's just me.

Wee, wee. Dr. Bethany Marshall, it's like he's talking about, hey, I had a Mercedes and I had a Cadillac and I had a Harley Davidson. Now I don't have them anymore. Wah, wah, right? Well, you have to remember that with people who have severe personality disorders, meaning their personality is constructed in such a way that it's maladaptive for relating to other people, everything that they do is attention getting. So at the moment of being interviewed by the detective, he's not thinking, hey, I'm going to jail. He's thinking, wow, this is fun. Lots of attention here. In fact, he might even be experiencing this as if he's a celebrity or a person of notoriety. He's having his day, not his day in court, but his day where he's getting a lot of attention.

And, you know, that tape you played earlier where he said, you know, there was this feeling at the back of my head, and it's as if somebody else's hands were around mine, and my knees hurt, and I think she was praying. It was like she was praying. He's really minimizing the maliciousness of his act. He's making it seem as if, you know, the devil was in him making him do it. And then the second clip you played, it's like he's into full-on enjoyment in this interview. He is having a great time. And, you know, I've said so many times on your show, sociopaths do not have big picture thinking. He's not putting two and two together that he is heading to the penitentiary. He is just thinking this is a really great time I'm having right now with

these detectives. Speaking of psychological issues, realtors say their home is considered psychologically impacted. The home is or stigmatized um i would certainly want to know if there had been a murder much less a triple homicide in a home i was buying the real estate laws protect home purchasers you don't want to find out you've got a ghost or you've got a house you can't unload in five years. Long story short, who is going to buy that home? In the meantime, to Alexis Teresha, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, what can you tell me about all Chris Watts' girlfriends? Chris Watts has multiple women that are not only writing to him, they're calling him, they are visiting him in prison. These are women who are from all ages and from all over the country. We have seen the letters that people are writing him. These women have come forward and one woman has said that she has spoken to him.

And what you were just saying, what Dr. Bethany Marshall was just saying about him, he says that he had a break and that a demon possessed him. That's what one of the women that went to speak with him said. He told her that he did not know what happened. He described the actual murders of his children and his wife. And he said, I felt like a demon possessed me. I didn't really know what was going on. He is such a liar about everything. I feel like we haven't said that word yet, but he is a liar. Everything that he says, he just listens to police officers sort of maybe float an explanation. Then he says, oh yes, that's it. None of what he says matches with the evidence and everything is in

hindsight and it is a making up of an excuse after they're gone. So what these women are doing, these women who are actually very attractive women, they are, one of them is even married. And she says she's just really his counselor. Like she's a woman who's helping him find religion behind bars. And these women are saying that he talks about his family all the time, that he's very sorry. But again, he accepts no responsibility for this. And it was a demon that possessed him. Instead of really admitting that he planned it, he knew exactly what he was going to do where he was going to take them so no one would

find them he was having this sneaky affair he's is a crazy liar well he was having a lot of sneaky affairs including people he meets on tinder and just just shows up at motels along with his mistress, Nicole Kessinger, just revealed giggly voicemails from his mistress along with two other women who now visit him behind bars where he claims he is a, quote, changed man. Why would a woman be interested in that? I don't know. Not only that, to Alexis Tereschuk, what can you tell me about a petition that has about 5,000 signatures on it

demanding that Chris Watts, killer dad, remove pictures of his pregnant wife, Shanann, and his two daughters from his prison cell and returned them to the victim's family. So when Chris started doing interviews and this, you could see in his cell that he had these pictures of the family, people got outraged. So on behalf of these poor victims who were no longer there, they started a petition and they said that he should not be allowed to do this, that these are victims and the person that that he should not be allowed to do this, that this is these are victims and the person that killed them should not be allowed to have this property.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Frank Rusick tells me that the cyberbullying around this case has been relentless since the murders about 11 months ago. So bad that he's even gone to law enforcement and lawmakers seeking help but has had no assistance. So now he's here in Colorado asking CBS 4 viewers to help him stop the trolls. I can't possibly describe how painful the last 11 months have been. the the police. They're not going to be able to get anything out of this. We're going to be in England, Philippines. Australia It's not fair to these victims. We don't deserve it. Frank Rusick wanted to pressure lawmakers to step up and find a way to

limit the attacks trolls make online. His lawyers say calling major social media companies has been useless. I shouldn't have to be out here doing this. The Rusick say cyber bullies are making them relive their nightmare daily. We just try

to ignore it. But sometimes you just can't ignore it. Please just stop. Get on with your lives. Leave ours alone. You are hearing Shanann Watt's dad speaking to Dylan Thomas at CBS4 in Colorado. It's overwhelming to me that online trolls are attacking Shanann's family, but not only that, there is now about a 5,000 strong petition demanding killer dad Chris Watts remove pictures of pregnant Shanann, his wife, and his two little girls Bella and Celeste from his prison cell and give them back to the victim's family. The title is confiscate Chris Watts picture of his murder victims and it's being sent to the Wisconsin Department of Corrections. To Alexis Tereschuk, RadarOnline.com investigative reporter, what do you know? People are outraged that there have been images of Chris's prison cell where he has the pictures of his wife and his children.

He murdered them. He's serving life sentences for this. But he has these pictures up. These are his victims. So people started a petition. And this is not something small. These are over 5,000 signatures. People have asked the Wisconsin correction facility to take these down, give these pictures back to Shanann's family because they find it outrageous that somebody can have this there when they are the reason these people are dead.

It's sickening, especially because now he's saying that he loved them and he wasn't even responsible. It was a demon that possessed him that was responsible. Right. The devil again. You know, the devil makes a lot of cameo appearances in domestic homicides. To Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now defense attorney, he wants a do-over. He wants to have his plea thrown out. What possible grounds could he raise to get a do-over and a chance to walk free. Well, Nancy, this is so similar in so many ways to Mr. Demonic Charles Manson. I just see so many parallels. What could he say? I was crazy. I did not know right from wrong. Would anybody buy it? I certainly hope not. Now, just because I'm a defense lawyer doesn't mean I have to like all of my clients. I want to make that very clear. This guy is a bad guy.

He could come up with everything in the book, but there's nothing in the book that will let him out of prison, except for when and if he is killed in prison by someone or someones who don't like what he did. Oh, there you go again, saying there's going to be jailhouse justice. Okay, you know, Charles Manson died practically of old age. Please, jailhouse justice. You know, I want to go to Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida. Dr. Gallagher, how could Shanann's body possibly be prepared, prepped at a funeral home to have an

open casket funeral? I mean, is it even possible after manual strangulation? Well, it's very possible. You know, there's an entire field dedicated to that mortuary sciences, which uses a lot of cosmetics and a lot of embalming techniques that would make her very presentable for an open casket funeral. You'd be surprised at what they can do for people who are involved in accidents where they have a lot of facial damage. They are very, very good artisans and they are very good in their field. And I don't think it will be much of an effort to make her presentable. You know, to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, she suffered what we know is called coffin birth. Explain.

At that moment, Nancy, when she was buried, decomposition began. And as the body begins to compromise its kind of natural integrity. Everything just kind of gives way. There's a disintegration. And the natural tension that would be there to say, keep a baby in utero is going to be released. And at that point in time, she would literally birth, her body would birth this precious little angel into that dirty environment. For all of you women out

there, God help you, that have a crush on killer dad Chris Watts, let me detail the autopsy reports that we've obtained and the detail. And maybe they will bring you to your senses and explain why Watts pled guilty in the face of these documents. Shanann strangled. He smothered his two little girls, even when Bella, age four, fought back. How do I know that? Because she bit her tongue and her cheeks in the process of fighting back. Watson stuffed Bella, just 38 pounds,

through an eight-inch hole in an oil tank, scraping her arms and legs and the process forcing her into it. She was found three days later wearing a little pink pajama top with hearts and butterflies on it. Her little sister Celeste was found in a pink top and a diapy in an adjacent oil tank. When the bodies were removed, they became de-sleeved. Now, that is certainly a euphemism to Joseph Scott Morgan. Explain what de-sleeving is. De-sleeving is literally when that top layer, think about our epidermis. People at home have learned this in school, that epidermis of their skin and down to the dermis begins to literally peel away.

We see this many times in advanced decomposition with bodies where the hands will deglove. In this case, Nancy, just as you had mentioned, these little girls had only been in there for three days. That gives you an idea as to how caustic this environment was. And now you've got these women that are out there begging for this guy's attention that would literally do these to these little children. It's just beyond the pale. Shanann, the mom, the pregnant mom, had baby Nico partially expelled from her body. He was half in her body and half out of her body. And both he and she were covered in dirt and sand. The two little girls, having been in oil tanks for days, unprocessed crude oil, had the oil all in their throats, their stomachs,

and their lungs. All of you women vying for a visitor pass to see Chris Watts, writing him love letters with hearts and flowers drawn on, think about that. Nancy Grace, Crime Story,

signing off. Goodbye, friend.