Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KILLER DAD CHRIS WATTS 'OLD-TIME RELIGION' LURES WOMEN BEHIND BARS

Episode Date: March 27, 2026

Is killer dad Chris Watts using old-time religion to lure women while he is behind bars?  Multiple women writing to Watts,  sending him love letters and money through the mail overloading his commissary.  Wife, Shanann Watts, was found buried in a shallow grave. Shanann was buried face down, wrapped in a sheet, with Nico between her legs, birthing him postmortem. in a shallow grave. Watts said he buried her face down and away from the girls to punish her. Bella and Celeste were inside of an oil tank, and about 50 feet away.  Today Nancy speak with Cherylyn Cadle, author of best-selling book, "Murders of Christopher Watts."  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Killer Dad, Chris Watts, using old-time religion to lure women while he is behind bars. What? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

All of these women that are writing to him and sending him love letter. and sending him money through the mail that has overloaded his commissary. That's a monster. That's a real monster. He knew exactly what he was doing. I said, it seems to me like there was a monster inside of you, and it was boiling and boiling, and it had to come out, and that's why you killed Shunan. Did you see just right there where a sheet was being held up?

I'd like to look at that again, because I think that's something. that all you ladies out there that are writing and corresponding with killer dad, Chris Watts, that is the sheet in which Shanan Watts was bundled up. And those poor L.E. had to unfold it. Just quick refresher to Sydney's summer, join. me, crime stories, investigative reporter. Could you tell me where again his wife, Shanan Watts, was found buried in a shallow grave after coffin birth of her first boy, Nico? Where was this sheet, Sydney Sumner?

Well, Bella and Celeste were inside of an oil tank, and about 50 feet away, Shannon Watts, was buried face down, wrapped in this sheet with Nico between her legs, birthing him post-mortem in a shallow grave. And Chris Watts said he buried her face down in a way from the girls to punish her. Face down and away from their two little girls to punish her. To Dr. Judy Hoge joining us, and I haven't even gotten into his old-time religion, luring women behind bars. Boy, do we need a shrink tonight.

Dr. Judy Ho is joining me, clinical, forensic, neuro-psychologist. She's the author of The New Rules of Attachment. She's the author of Stop Self-Sabotage. And you can find her at Dr. Judyho.com. Judy-ho-H-O-com. Dr. Judy, that's a new fact that many people have just learned that when, after he murdered his wife, Shanan Watts, and their two little girls, Bella and Celeste, he, Chris Watts, buried her, Shanan Watts, face down so she couldn't look to where her children were as punishment.

I think nothing could hurt me worse than to be forever away from my two children, the twins. That is F-uped, okay? That's a Latin term. You rarely hear it in court, but I think you know what it means without a full definition. He buried her face down so she could not gaze in death at her children.

Nancy, it's incredible. It's like the last thing that he just had to do to make everything so much worse as if it already isn't terrible enough. And that just shows you the mindset that he has. He already murdered her. And he decided that she was not going to even be able to have any kind of interaction, any kind of connection with her children.

It's like he wanted her to suffer even in death. I mean, you have to think about the mindset of somebody who would plot that as they were doing it and saying, you know what, I don't even want to give her the dignity of facing up. I want to put her face down. So not only is she continuing to suffocate in death, she's not even going to be able to look at her family. Joining us, Dr. Kendall Crowns, renowned chief medical examiner, Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth, never a lack of business there. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, and he is the star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the Morg.

Dr. Kendall Crowns, thank you for being with us. What is coffin berth? coffin birth is because when the individual is decomposing and they're pregnant, the gases form from decomposition swell up the abdomen and start creating pressure. Often this causes bodily fluids to purge out of the mouth and nose, out of the anus and vagina. But since she's pregnant as well, it forced the pressure from these gases forming forces down on the uterus and then expels the fetus out of the vaginal canal causing basically a birth of the fetus.

Okay. I am digesting what you said, and I'm going to say it in regular people talk. When the body decomposes gases are created, that's why the stomach or the body blows up and the body begins to smell. And those gases force baby Nico through the vaginal canal, and she gives birth posthumously after death. that correct? That is correct. That's basically what it is. That said, Steve

Helling joining us, investigative reporter Daily Mail, who got the exclusive on this story. I don't know why you keep saying it's a story because these are real people. Steve Helling, my long-time friend and cohort, Steve, I want you to watch this. I feel about to eat any of your food. No, what kind of picture be like? It doesn't matter really. Okay. Thank you, though.

Do you like that kind? Do you like that kind? I like that. I like that. I think. Steve Helling, Daily Mail. He's chowing down, he's woofing down pizza while the pictures of Bella and Celeste are right in front of him.

And his wife, who he murdered, just had coughing birth. He's chowing down. Did you see that? They should have gotten him a double. Yeah. I mean, I've lost my appetite right now, and this isn't my wife and my children. So I can't believe that he's sitting there eating a pizza after all that had happened.

But, you know, we're starting to see all this stuff that he does. He doesn't operate like you and I do. He operates on this sociopathic level. Okay, you're throwing around a medical term. You said he's operating on a what level, Steve Helling? I just said sociopathic, and you know what? I kind of stand by that one. You know, I'm not a doctor-in-lawing.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just very impressed. Sociopathic level. Okay, Dr. Judy Ho, I recall, and I'm projecting, which is dangerous to do when you're analyzing a case, but I recall after my fiancé murdered, I lost down to 89 pounds. I couldn't eat, I couldn't drink. I remember the first thing I consumed. It was orange juice out of my mom and dad's fridge.

And suddenly I could eat again. Do you see him? Do you see that? I don't think at that point, correct me if I'm wrong, Sidney, Sumner and Steve Helling. I don't think the bodies had even been found yet. The little girls, Bella and Celeste, I think, ages one and three. The skin on their own.

arms. Look at her little arms, Dr. Judy Ho. Ripped off when he pushed them down a cylindrical oil container that was only about 8 to 11 inches wide. He shoved, there you go, he shoved the girls' bodies down that. And the skin on their arms came off. And he is chowing down on a pepperoni pizza with sausage on top. What? I don't get it. Nancy, this isn't a clinical term, but he's obviously a monster. But going back to clinical terms, when somebody may have sociopathic tendencies,

there are genetic loads for that, meaning that sometimes their brains are just not stimulated by the things that normal people would be stimulated by. So in this case, murdering his entire family, and then it's like his brain doesn't even light up with disgust with fear, with feelings of being disgusted with himself after what he's done. Instead, it's going towards his hunger cues. And he's saying, yummy, I want to have my meal right now and I'm going to enjoy this meal. There's something most likely wrong with the wiring of his brain and how he even perceives experiences on top of everything else that he did.

But that also leads him to be able to do these things and then, to eat apparently a delicious meal afterwards as if nothing happened. Dr. Kendall Crowns, jumping off what Dr. Judy Ho just told us, Dr. Crowns, why is it that great grief or anxiety makes a human not want to eat? When they're upset, they can't eat or they feel nauseous? I think it's the emotions that well up and it causes feelings in your stomach and in your brain. It just causes the drive to eat to be depressed or suppressed by that. Most people that...

Okay, Dr. General Krause, I could have said that, and I'm just a trial lawyer. When you're upset, you don't want to eat. That's basically what you said. But there's got to be something metabolic, something physical, that makes you not want to eat. And I'm getting at, he just shoved his daughters down those cylindrical containers. He buried his wife face down to give birth post-mortem. His son, baby Nico, is lying in the grave with her mother right there, and he's chowing down. I'm trying to find an answer.

Well, I don't have a good one for you, Nancy. I can't explain why he's able to eat after he murdered his family in that manner. So I'm at a loss. You know what, Dr. Kenil-Kron's, let me see him. This is a first, a medical doctor telling me I don't know the answer. I'm really impressed. I'd rather you tell me that and to make something up or just bluff your way through it. So maybe if it's not physical, which you would know about if it was physical, what about it, Dr. Judy Ho?

How, why does that work? Because he's obviously not upset at all. Well, Nancy, when we are in our eat and digest mode, which is when we experience hunger cues, and when we want to have, you know, food, when we when we have an appetite, it's because our our bodies are not in fight or flight, right? Our bodies are not being provoked. It's not feeling threatened. It's feeling relaxed. It's feeling like it wants to rest.

And clearly, this is what this man is doing after the heinous crimes he's consumed. He's so easily able to settle back in to that rest and relaxation phase. This is why when people are stressed out when trauma happens, they can't sleep. It's because of the fighter flight system kicking in. Both systems can't be active at once. And yet his rest. relaxation spa system is on, which is what allows him to be able to eat in this day. And that is why it's so disgusting and egregious and why he may very well be a sociopath.

These are the things that we look for is, does somebody have essentially zero emotional response to trauma, to blood, to violence, to the point where they can still sleep well at night, to the point where they can still eat? Apparently, as I mentioned, the most delicious meal of his life. He seems to be really enjoying this. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Randolph Rice, joining me a former felony prosecutor, current criminal defense and civil lawyer at Rice Law,

a firm founded by him. Randolph Rice, thank you for being with us. You know how many times I would play that front of the jury? The jury would probably be sick to their stomachs, looking at the crime scene photos and seeing that. That sheet unfolded I was just showing, but it's not bothering him. You know who reminds me of Randolph Rice, and you're going to hate this. Scott Peterson, when the detectives, and they told it to me here on crime stories one night,

when the detectives came to Scott Peterson and said, Scott, the bodies that washed up at San Francisco Bay, we just got back the DNA. and it's Lacey and your son, Connor. Within about 12 minutes, they were in the car, he asked him to pull over, I believe it's to an in-and-out so he could get a double, double with cheese and a milkshake. Mm-hmm. That just rubbed me the wrong way. Same thing here. What do you do with your client? You can't help him now.

He did that before you got hired. Chowing down. Pepparoni, sausage, The works, while Belmont's less photos are right in front of him. And Nancy, you're exactly right. That's what prosecutors would have shown at this case going to trial immediately was this this is the indifference that he has towards the death of his children. And that's Exhibit A when it comes to trying to show or showing at least a jury if he had gone to trial that he is just a monster inside of the other guests have said.

Okay, you do know that you're a defense attorney, right? You haven't traveled into some alternate universe. What do you do with something like that? What do you say to a jury? They look at that, then they look over you and are like, what? What do you say? Nancy, that's one of the hardest things to deal with when you've got situations like this, evidence that you just cannot get around. And that's when you ultimately tell your clients, this may be a case that we have to take a plea on

because we're not going to win based on a jury seeing how you are just indifferent to these photographs. Randolph Rice, I'm going to help you. I'm going to throw you a crutch so you can limp out of this conversation. Have you ever heard of stress eating that he was so upset he was just like gobbling it down? What about that? Or here's a great one from the back to Scott Peterson. Just because he's a low life crud, a cheater, a philanderer, and a liar doesn't mean he's a killer. Just because he's pigging out doesn't mean he committed murder.

I'm helping you, Randolph, grab the life raft. I'm throwing to you. Those are all great defenses. And I think here's one more. The fact that he felt so comfortable in that examination room that he was able to eat shows that he's innocent altogether. So that's an argument that I'd make in front of the jury. And you obviously said that with a straight face. Sherilyn Cato is joining us, author of The Murders of Christopher Watts and the Many Faces of Christopher Watts, a five-year update. And I hope you've got a third book in you because there's so much. more, starting with old time religion. I had that in my head all night. I couldn't get it out of my head. Have you ever had that happen? You remember that old song? It was good for a grandma, grandpa. It's good enough for me. Old time religion. He's using it to lure women into his love trap. But before I get to that, who is this guy that chowls down on a pepperoni pizza while he's

looking at the children he murdered. Well, two things. He detached himself, I believe, and I'm not a doctor, but I'm spending time with him, I can see that he is able to detach himself from the situation. And he told me once that he never occurred to him, that he would get caught. So when he was sitting in this interrogation, he didn't. He hadn't had his lie detector test yet. So in his mind, he was still okay.

They were treating him nice. You know, the police officers, and they knew how to work him because they felt sorry for him. If you notice, she taps him on the back and she's feeling sorry for him. They know how to get everything out of him because he's a player, and so he's easily played. Are you hungry now? Oh, different pizza?

I feel bad to eat any of your food. No, what kind of pizza do you like? It doesn't matter really. Okay. Thank you, though. Do you like that kind? Do you like that kind? I like anything like.

Thank you. But these women, they want to marry him. They want to support him. They want to visit with him. They want to talk to him on the phone. I mean, he may smile, but there's something cold. but there's something cold in his eyes. What an artful deceiver he is.

You know, that's what the devil is often called, the deceiver. We can hear each other anywhere in our home with the acoustics. We put our chairs next to the wall where there's that plug in, and you can hear it like a phone. At the Dodge Correctional Institution, Chris Watts can hear a joining cellmate, Dylan Tallman, imprisoned on drug charges since 19, and the two become close. Tallman claims Watts truly found God watching a Nancy Grace program

on the murders of his pregnant wife and daughters. Talman says, as Grace addresses Watts through the TV, while photos of Shane Ann, Bella, and Celeste flash on screen, Watts falls to his knees and confesses his sins. Talman calls the moment Watts Rock Bottom. You were seeing clips from a Lifetime Movie Network, a movie about Watts and Shanan. Wait a minute.

Steve Helling joining us, Daily Mail, So he claims he found the Lord, and I am not poo-pooing that. I'm happy he found the Lord. And he can get complete forgiveness from the Lord. That does not mean he gets out of jail. So he claims he found the Lord, or is it the friend, Tallman, after watching one of our programs? Dylan Tallman was the one who told me that.

You were talking about him and they were watching it. And you addressed him through the TV, according to Dylan, and said, Chris Watts, you know, what is wrong with you, basically? And it was the moment that Chris, allegedly, according to Dylan, dropped to his knees, confessed his sins, became a Christian. Whatever you said convicted him enough that he decided to make a conversion. Okay. Well, maybe that will get me into heaven.

Dr. Judy Ho, again, clinical forensic neuro psychologist, author of multiple books. Dr. Judy, I've seen a lot of behind bars conversions, and I'm happy for them. But for this guy, Chris Watts, I find it hard to believe. You have to be a bit spectacle, especially given what we've seen of his behavior. So far, is this just another ploy? Is this just another manipulation? we haven't even really gotten into all of the women who he appears to have been manipulating behind bars. And so he can be a very convincing storyteller, right? And like you said, Nancy,

if someone has truly converted, asked to be forgiven, is trying to be a better person, found God, that's awesome if that's really happened. But based on what we've seen so far, and I'm just talking about behaviors only, not that convinced, really not that convinced. Okay, behind bars conversion or is Watts using his old-time religion conversion to lure women? Take a listen to it as best, he says. Talman says Watts refuses to discuss his crimes outside a context of faith, comparing his actions to Bible stories. Watts mostly focuses on the sin of adultery, very seldom mentioning the actual murders. Watts compares a fair partner, Nicole Kessinger, whom he convinced his marriage.

was over to Bathsheba and Jezebel. Lott's writes of Nicole. She is of evil spirits like Jezebel. The words of a harlot have brought me low. Her flattering speech was like drops of honey that pierced my heart and soul. Little did I know that all her guests were in the chamber of death.

How did I let this happen? The blessings you have bestowed upon me were right in front of me and still I followed the perfume of a strange woman. Okay. What did I just hear? My ears are bleeding. Sidney Sumner, he is blaming, murdering his wife and two.

Ladies, are you listening? You that are writing him and patting his commissary account. Okay, Sidney, help me. He's blaming the murders that he committed on his wife and two girls on who? His wife, Shanan, and his lover, Nicole Kessinger? Well, we've got two layers. So he originally tries to blame these murders on Shanan.

He says he came home, told Shanan he wanted a divorce, and she turned around and killed their children, which is why he killed her and then got rid of all of the bodies. So that was the original story he tried to convince everyone is what truly happened. And now that he's been convicted and everyone kind of knew, there's no way Shann killed her own children. He then flips it on Nicole Kessinger and says it's her fault. If he never had met her, if they'd never been dating, he never would have killed his family.

Oh, there's Nicole Kessinger. And speaking of Bathsheba. Now, he's blaming when none of this is, okay, there's a booty shot. When none of this is working Randolph Rice, I don't guess you've ever used a biblical defense. he begins to blame Bathsheba and Jezebel. You know Bathsheba is, right? King David. David and Goliath, same David. Why do guys, your clients, always blame the woman.

Okay, there's Eve. It's her fault. She listened to the snake. Now it's Beth Sheba. Now it's Jezebel. Who's next? Salome, who danced in front of the king and then he chopped off John the Baptist head.

and served it on a silver platter? Who's next? Nancy, I think this is all just coming from a jailhouse snitch who wants to get his 15 minutes of fame. And I'm not really sure that that's actually got much validity as to what his real beliefs are. And to be honest with you, this may be his finding of God, this religious experience he's had, may be a basis for his defense attorneys to go back to court and ask for some sort of modification of his sentence if he truly is asking for forgiveness. Put him up.

What? Because he has converted to Christianity, according to him, the narcissist psychopath, the sociopath, him that will say anything and woofed out of pizza, looking at the photos of his dead children, that's going to get an order modification, which means a sentence reduction.

How? Nancy, it's always worth a try. If there's some sort of change in your life, some sort of thing that you have come forward and being able to maybe make some admission or some acceptance of a guilt here, that it may be worth going back to the court and asking for some sort of modification of this sentence.

Always the woman's fault. I hope his next judge isn't a woman. Watts blames the women in his life for his family's demise, which he calls the tragedy. Watts first blames pregnant wife, Shane Anne for the murders, claiming she strangled Bella and Celeste after he asked for a divorce,

and he killed her in a rage. Watts eventually admits he killed his daughter, out of a desire to clear Shanan's name. Watts then places the blame on Kessinger's temptation, claiming she enticed him into his murderous spree. There's so many women think that he's good looking to the points of all these women that have written him. Nancy, they send him money in the mail. He has a fan club. My takeaway is that there's something in him that he thinks he can just rule any woman. While Talman says Watts is genuinely a man of faith, he admits Watts still has an incredible weakness for women. Watts quickly becomes infatuated,

even obsessed with female pen pals, writing them 15-page letters front and back. Hours poured into these relationships keeps Watts' commissary account padded, multiple women making regular contributions. Okay, now we're hearing this from a guy, Dylan Tallman. Who is he? Listen. Chris Watts, Lost all his prison privileges for two weeks after his underwear was found in a man's cell. An incident report that reveals Watts underwear and petroleum jelly were found in a fellow inmate Dylan Tallman's cell. Okay, not judging, don't care. This is from podcast Lockup 23 and 1. Steve Helling,

Chris Watts' underwear and Vaseline in Tallman's jail. Sell? What? I mean, I've spent a lot of time talking to Dylan Talman, and I don't know exactly what that's all about. I don't think that there's anything there just on based on what, I don't know. I can say that Chris, you never can tell. Chris will do whatever Chris needs to do to, you know, ingratiate himself with people, whatever that means. And so he decided that Dylan was somebody who he could write books with, who he could use as an outside conduit. And whatever Chris was trying to do, I don't know. I have no idea why his underwear would be in Chris's cell.

I don't know. But I don't think it's what everybody thinks it was. You are an investigative reporter, right? Yes. Well, I mean, here's the thing. Both Chris and his family. And you can't figure out why Watts's underwear and Vaseline were in Tallman's You want me to draw you a diagram, Helling?

I would actually prefer that you don't. But yeah, I mean, I understand what you're saying. And I don't know, you know, they both have said multiple times there was nothing sexual between them. And Chris really does seem to be much more fixated on the women and on the ladies, but then prison does things to people. So I can't answer that question. Okay. Okay, Sydney Sumner joining us, crime stories, investigative reporter may have an innocent, well, quasi-innocent explanation that Watts went fishing from sale to sale? Right. So their official story behind what happened here is that Coleman was being punished.

He was not allowed to leave his cell. He was not allowed to have access to commissary items. So Watts was helping him out by ordering commissary items for Tallman and then using dental flush to throw them down the hallway underneath the cell door so Tallman could pull that item in and use it. So Watts was ordering commissary things. The items were arriving with his name on them. Then he was giving them to Tallman for his personal use. And when Tallman got caught with these items, it made for his. this embarrassing headline. I want to get back to luring women with old-time religion. And joining me now, Cheryl Lynn Catole. She is the author of The Murders of Christopher Watts and the Many Faces of

Christopher Watts, a five-year update. Who are these women, Cheryl Lynn? They come from every walk of life. And what is interesting is that many of them will send me a message to messenger telling me that they are writing with him and talking to him on the phone and what should they do? And it doesn't matter how many times that I tell them, get away, don't do this, stay away from him. They end up going that direction anyway. When he gets them to a certain point, one woman divorced her husband over him. When he gets them to a certain point, certain point then he tells them this can't go anywhere for you and I'm breaking up with you and he goes on to the next and he has several women at a time

that he's writing to writing long letters to and yeah and it's it's sad because he they just fall for him they send him money and they they just and they feel like he's godly and he's meeting their needs spiritually and that he comforts them and he knows all the right things to say and by the way he has used this religion thing way before he met Talman because my letters to him from the very beginning which was only six months after the murders he talks about finding God that's how he started out with me so I think you know a lot of it is just that's one of the things that he has found that works for him. Maybe it works for him with women and men. I don't know.

But yeah, he's very, very much, always sending Bible scriptures to these women, always, you know, comparing himself to someone in the Bible. Often Paul, one woman was convinced he's the modern day Paul in the Bible from the Bible. So, yeah, it's okay, wait a minute, put her up, please. Cheryl Lynn, you mean Paul, formerly Saul, who murdered Christians, Saul the persecutor for the Roman Empire, turned... Correct. ...pawall after he was blinded by the light, and he would write letters from behind bars. Okay, he's comparing himself to Paul. Correct. And women fall for that. Yes, they sure do. Okay, straight out to Dr. Judy Ho. We need to show. We need to

shrink. Dr. Judy Ho, clinical forensic neuropsychologist, what? Okay, I'd like to say what is wrong with him, but what is wrong with them? Nancy, I think that when people get involved with known criminals, there are some behavioral patterns, of course, they can indeed come from all different walks of life, but I think that there are some key characteristics, like wanting to feel special, especially through maybe changing someone who may be misunderstood by society or may actually truly be innocent or are trying to turn a new leaf. And they want to be that special person that changes that person because it makes them feel better about themselves. Also, sometimes these are individuals who have their own trauma histories don't understand what a healthy relationship looks like. To them, this is a healthy relationship.

It also happens sometimes to individuals who are looking for purpose, for some kind of leadership. in their life and now they've fallen behind this person who seems like he's a leader. But do you see the way that he talks to these women? The quotes that you've been talking about all throughout this show where essentially once he gets them in his grasp, then it's all about you are subordinate to me. You are the evil one. I'm being tempted by you. None of this is my fault.

And people fall for that because it's an ideology that at least guides their lives and their behavior and they're looking to this guy to help them. be their moral compass that's clearly concerning but when these individuals are in these relationships they don't see that they only see the love bombing they only see that now they feel special and that they have something that's guiding their every day and all of their steps crime stories with nancy grace you know randolph rice veteran trial lawyer former felony or now criminal defense and civil attorney. I've seen it in court a million times.

I didn't understand it the way Dr. Judy Hoe is describing it. But I would see wives, I would see wives and girlfriends or girlfriends, even exes, show up in court. When I would have a guy that had killed multiple people to support him, it's like they don't hear any of the evidence. It's like blah, blah, blah, blah in their head. All they hear is, I plead not guilty. Have you noticed that phenomenon? These women are willing to believe anything? Well, you're seeing it now in the Luigi Mangione case,

where he's got people following him around, sending him letters, writing him, sending him commissary. This seems to be a common pattern now, whereas Dr. Ho mentioned that there's some people that just don't have healthy relationships and they're ultimately attaching themselves to killers. So that is not a good way, I think, to live a life if you're somebody looking for a partner out there.

All of you ladies that think you have a crush on Chris Watts, I want you to hear and watch his demeanor what he first said when Shanan, his wife, the mother of his three children, went missing. This is what he said first. She told you anything about leaving, moving out? Not moving out. I mean, the last time talked to her was this morning she said she was going to take the kids to a friend's house and then she asked where she was going to be. And then I've texted her today and never heard anything. But the car's here. Right.

Unless somebody can't pick her up. But the people that I know, nobody's heard from and nobody's seen. And then he said this. Shanan, Bella, Celeste. If you're out there, just come back. Like, if somebody has her, just please bring her back. I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again.

This house is not complete. Without anybody here, please bring it back. That from our friends at Denver 7, and then finally, this. So that last clip was him telling his father that he kills Shanan after she murdered her children. This one, she's about eight or nine months pregnant. And then ultimately this. Are they in the tanks? Can somebody who doesn't know what they're doing on?

Okay, I teach you over. What's in the tanks? Some mixture of oil and water. Do we have a sheet found down here? Mm-hmm. What was that from? What about the girlies? What were they wrapped in?

Blankets or anything? Where did their blankets and toys and stuff go? Probably a little back on the line. Where did you shut them or put them? In a shocking display, Cheers Rock, as pictures of Luigi Manjone on screen as the DJ plays Miley Cyrus, he could be the one. The crowd cheering photos of Luigi Mangione. The cheers get even louder as Manjone's recent booking photos are shown.

Manjone has become a sex symbol since his arrest, and a fundraiser has raised over $100,000 for legal fees. And Veronica says, I need him so bad. No, like so bad, so, so bad, so, so bad. Okay, so I would visit him in prison and bake him cookies maybe, perhaps more, but I haven't thought that far ahead. That from at Nessa 1027 on TikTok and Jimmy Kimmel Live. So it's history repeating itself to Steve Helling, joining us from Dealey-Mell,

who first correct the code on this. Luigi Mangione, Christopher Watts. Same thing. Same thing, except on some twisted level, I can say, okay, with Luigi, maybe if you think that he was making a political statement. I don't know. But Chris Watts was just evil. Like there's no broader statement that was being made here.

There was no altruism. There was no revenge. It was just an awful grisly murder of little girls. Did you somehow state Luigi Mangione committed murder, but it's okay because of peaceful right right to peaceful protest? It sounded like that's what you just said. Okay. Well, don't put.

Don't put those words in my mouth. What I am saying is that I understand that there are people... There are people who can make allowances in their head for other crimes. But with Chris Watts, there's just... There's no way that a sane person can explain away what he did in anything other than being evil. There's just no possible way. And so the idea that all these women... And there's lots of them, by the way.

And they've started coming forward. Basically, when he breaks up with them, then they come to the media. They're like, hey, Steve, want to see some letters? And the thing is, I've seen enough of Chris Watts's handwritten pages. I've seen hundreds of pages that is pretty easy to look at it and be like, okay, that's another one of Chris's things. And the latest one who came to me, she just had all these letters where he's, you know,

kind of comparing himself to Bible. What is he saying? He compares himself to Bible characters. He says that he would, a big thing is he didn't do anything. He doesn't say he didn't do anything wrong, but what he does say is that Nicole Kessinger kind of tempted him. It's very much the woman, the woman did this to me. The woman made me do this.

And there's, you know, one thing to do with when it comes to, you know, converting to Christianity and that type of thing is you've got to accept your own sin. You've got to be able to say, I did this and take some ownership. And he doesn't really do that. It's mostly the woman did this, the woman did that, but you're kind of hot, so let's keep talking. That's kind of where he is. You're scaring me because it's kind of like you're getting into his character and you're explaining it a little too well. Okay, there are women that go beyond the Chris Watts phenomena and they actually marry killers.

The day Eric and Lyle Menendez are. sentence to life in prison, Lyle Menendez also ties the knot with model Anna Erickson via speakerphone with Menendez aunt and attorney as their witnesses. The relationship is short-lived. Erickson filing for divorce when she discovers her husband is writing love letters to other women. Just two years later Menendez marries again, this time to magazine editor Rebecca Sneed. After 20 years, Sneed announces their separation, denies the split as due to another affair. That was about Lyle Menendez, who murdered his mom and dad. The brother Eric Menendez, multiple relationships, marriage behind bars, the works.

Okay, then, of course, I have to bring up Yorne Vanderslute. Hours after Yoran Vanderslute accepts $25,000 from Natalie Holloway's family, then lies about her body. Vanderslut is gambling in Lima. There, he meets Stephanie Flores, daughter of a prominent Peruvian businessman. At Hotel Tank, Vanderslouli's. Attacks Flores beating and strangling her to death. Her body found three days later. Lady Figueroa, a young mother, visits a relative in Pyridus Gordas prison, but starts spending more time with inmate, Yoran Vanderslute. It isn't long before Figueroa is pregnant with

Vanderslute's baby. Figueroa and Vanderslute marry in his cell. After almost 10 years together, Vanderslute wants a divorce, trading Figueroa for younger, prettier, Eva Pacohuonco, who smuggles him drugs. Dr. Judy Ho, we have heard Steve Helling describing all these women that are writing Chris Watts and how he takes comfort and solace from those letters. I don't think that's all he's getting from those letters. No, he's getting sexual gratification. And when people are, this is, again, Nancy, I feel like a broken record. This is not the first time this is happening. But people who may be psychopaths and social paths also get sexual gratification from things that other people would usually find morbid, not at all sexually exciting. And this is their way of stimulating their

brain, which oftentimes have lower activation threshold. So what that means is they need something really out of norm, really sometimes even grotesque, disgusting, morally just putrid to be able to get excited, not just sexually excited, but excited in general. We get excited when we have a great meal. That's a normal person. These individuals, that's not enough for them. They need something really, really out of the box and sometimes often disgusting to be excited about life, excited sexually, to feel feelings of joy. So it's pretty twisted.

To Cheryl Lynn Cato, author of The Murders of Chris Watts and the Many Faces of Chris Watts, a five-year update, what is he like when he talks to you? you. Well, I let him know from the very, very get-go that this was not a romantic relationship I wanted to have with him, that I wanted to write a book with him. And so we had more of a, well, a mother-son-type relationship, a friend relationship is, you know, as far as it can go for that. I, there was never anything. romantic between us, but he did tell me about things, mainly the things that happened with Nicole Kessinger that he did with her and things I think that really got him on the hook with her. And, you know, in my feeling, you just can't drop a bomb like that on me and may not ask,

what are you talking about? What happened when Nicole Kessinger? I don't know if I can say it if I'm allowed to say it on TV. Just some of the sexual assets went on. Well, he told me some of the things that went on in that apartment between the two of them he would take to his grave, which is what he said about a couple of different things in my talking with him. There were, I believe. Okay, let me understand this, Cheryl. one. So he is embarrassed and appalled at his sex acts with Nicole Kessinger, but he freely discusses murdering Shanan Watts and the two children. For all of you women out there that think

he is handsome, that he's a real haughty, and I don't know why the control room keeps showing the picture of him without his shirt on. Dr. Kent, there you go, take that down. Dr. Kendall Crowns, could you just explain what is skin slid? Pedge. Certainly. What happens when you decompose the outer layer of your skin or the epidermis, the bonds that hold it to the dermis, which is the underlayer of your skin, start breaking down and your skin starts sloughing off. This happens after several days of decomposition, especially if you're in a warm environment. And then all your skin begins sloughing off showing the dermis. And in fact, your hands and feet will slip off in a glove and stocking like distribution. and still kind of stay intact. That's just a normal process of decomposition. Dr. Kendall Crowns, as much as I would love to discuss the skin slippage of these two little girls and their mother,

I need to dash out of the studio right now and take a shower. A hot shower. Actually, no, I need to go boil myself after hearing this. We stop now to remember an American hero Reserve Deputy Eddie Hamer, Hardiman County Sheriff's, Tennessee. just 36 killed in the line of duty. After serving nine years, he leaves behind his grieving mother.

American hero, reserve deputy, Eddie Hayman. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.