Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Killer Dad Chris Watts Secret Prison Bride, Steamy Makeout Sessions

Episode Date: August 22, 2026

Are wedding bells are ringing for family annihilator Chris Watts? Lizzie Henderson,39, is reportedly waiting for approval of her application to marry Watts within thewalls of the Dodge Correctional Institution, but according to family members, she’salready embodying the role of Watts’ wife. She’s sporting a wedding ring andinitiating the process of changing her last name. Last year, the realtor moved withher elderly mother from Cleveland to Waupun to be closer to Watts.  Other jail visitors claim the couple takes advantage of all 10 seconds they areallowed to embrace at the end of visits.  Joining Nancy Grace today Franz  Borghardt  - Criminal Defense Attorney, Founder of Borghardt Law Firm, Former Prosecutor, website: www.borghardtlawfirm.com, Insta/FB: BorghardtLawFirm Dr. Geri-Lynn Utter - Clinical Psychologist specializing in psychological evaluations and risk assessments for individuals involved in the criminal justice system, Author of “Mainlining Philly: Survival, Hope and Resisting Drug Addition,” and “Aftershock: How Past Event Shake Up Your Life Today”, and Producer of “Utter Nonsense,” a documentary of exploration of addition and severe mental illness, available to stream on Apple TV and Prime Video, website: drgerilynnutter.com, Instagram & Facebook: DrGeriLynnUtter Cheryln Cadle  - Author of "The Murders of Christopher Watts” and “The Many Faces of Christopher Watts: A 5-year Update”, website: www.cherylncadle.com,  Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Host of Podcast "Mayhem in the Morgue”, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)  Ruth Bashinsky -  Investigative and Crime Reporter Daily Mail  Dave Mack  - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories' See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Crime stores with Nancy Grace. Killer dad, Chris Watts, murders his pregnant wife, Shanan, and their unborn baby boy, Nico, and both of his little girls, Bella and Celeste. Tonight, bombshell, Chris Watts, secret prison bride, who is marrying family annihilator, Chris Watts. and to just top it off, steamy make-out sessions behind bars with witnesses. Ew! Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

I want to thank you for being with us. You have to trust me that when I tell you that these two beautiful girls right here, I did nothing to them and to my beautiful wife, I did nothing to her. I don't think any time that could happen about the thing I'd ever do it, but I did. I had put my hands around my wife's neck. I looked at her and I just, I caught up her. I didn't know she was in the shed.

I didn't find out she was disappeared. Like, she had gone missing until, like, he was being investigated. I remember I was doing a haircut at the, like, and it came on the radio. We were, the radio we were listening to at work, and they had said something about, like, husband of, you know, Shannon and they said Chris Watt. And I was like, that sounds so familiar, but I just, I didn't think anything of it.

And then I was scrolling through on Facebook and I saw like a little article, you know, like, and so I recognized his, his face. Like, how I put the two and two together? I'm like, and that's like, I kind of just, you know, it kind of kicked off from there. I felt horrible, horrible for her and those little girls. You know, that was a nice. initially, you know, just, just devastated on this. If he had the capacity to do that to his own family, like, you know,

like I'm just, you know, some chick he was, he messed with. You know, I hate the things that I let him do to me. I hate the things that I put up with from him. I hate the things that, you know, if how, if getting away with what he was doing to me, would give him a little bit more confidence to, you know, treat the next one worse. That is one of killer dad, Chris Watts, many, many mistresses. That was Amanda McMahon speaking to our friends at DLE Mail.

Now, whoa, whoa, don't get confused because that is not the prison bride. Joining us an all-star panel, the phenomena of who would move their whole family across the country to be closer to a convicted killer, much less a convicted three-time killer, straight out to Ruth Bishinsky joining us, investigative crime reporter Daily Mail, who broke the story. Ruth, who is the mysterious Lizzie? She sure is mysterious, Nancy. So her name is Lizzie Henderson, and what we know about her is that she's a 39-year-old realtor. She was living in Cleveland, Ohio, just doing multiple jobs, and she basically was in a lot of, you know, different relationships.

with, it seemed like, older men, that nothing seemed to ever, you know, she never got married. She was pretty much living a single life. And she, we don't really know how she met Chris, but they've been together for, we could say, with certainties, since 2004. And she basically picked up and moved from Cleveland, Ohio to Racine, Wisconsin to be closer to the prison where he is going to be in for the rest of his life. I wonder how that works. Oh, okay, I've got a question for the New York control room. Why is it every time we cover Chris Watts, you insist on showing him without a shirt?

Nobody cares. Yes, that. Take it down. Now, I wait. Let's just have a little refresher about who is Chris Watts, who apparently is having steamy makeout sessions behind bars. with his new prison bride who moved across the country to be with him. Dave Matt, Crime Stories, investigative reporter. What happened to Shanan, Nico, Bella, and Celeste?

Chris Watts strangled Shanan, who was pregnant with their son, Nico. After strangling her, Chris Watts suffocated his little girls. Bella, who was only four, and Cece, who is three. Then, after suffocating these precious children, he shoved them through an eight-inch hole into a crude oil container where he worked, leaving marks on their little heads from shoving them through the holes into those crude oil containers. And he buried Shane Ann in a shallow grave. That's what Chris Watts did.

Sweetie, I like that shirt. Really? Really? That's awesome. So pink means... That's just the test. I know. They're just because the pink is going to be girls.

I know. Just the test. That's awesome. No idiot. When the line comes across to E.P.T. That means you're pregnant. the fact that the line is pink does not mean it's a girl. Out of all the women you cheated on Shanan with,

and by the way, Dave Mac, it's not Shanan, it's Shanan. With all the women you cheated on Shanan with, you should know about pregnancy tests. That's Shanan. She had on an oops we did it again t-shirt. And he comes out and goes, really? While he went on to murder her, their unborn son, Nico, and that wasn't enough, all his whole family, including the two little girls. And speaking of, listen to Bella.

My daddy helps me. Bella and Celeste were horribly murdered, and they were stuffed into cylindrical oil containers about that big, about 11 or 12 inches wide. to Dr. Kendall Crowns joining as chief medical examiner, Tarrant County, Fort Worth, Star of Mayhem in the morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU and has performed literally thousands of medical autopsies. Dr. Kendall Crowns explain how the two little girls, Bella and Celeste, we were just watching, were desleeved.

And what does that mean? So desleeved is basically when you begin to decompose your skin surface begins to come off. The bonds between the epidermis and dermis start breaking down and your outer skin surface comes off. Now, the older girl, I believe her name was Bella. She also had abrasions on her body from being shoved through the opening of the oil drum causing abrasions. on her chest and back and buttocks as well. And also, if you look at her autopsy report, she may have, she probably struggled because there's injuries to her frenula, her gum line from being smothered. And then she also has the oil in her stomach. So I think she was possibly

alive engulfing in the oil after she was shoved into the oil drum. Put up Dr. Crowns, please. Hold on. I'm processing what you just said because I've heard about the skin coming off the little girl's arms being desleeved that I just checked on my notes and that container was only about eight inches that he shoved their bodies into but I had not heard that the girls had oil in their stomach what so it's the older one uh Bella has oil in her, let me see what the autopsy report exactly says, but she has oil in her stomach contents, and she also on her toxicology showed hydrocarbons and oxygenated volatiles, which would be

associated with the oil drum itself. So to me, it looks like she could have been alive, like he smothered her. There's bruising on the frenula and on the gum line, but she was, passed out and then he shoves her through the oil drum causing the abrasions on her body. And then she may have woken up once in the oil drum and then drowned essentially in oil. Because you shouldn't have a positive toxicology result if you were dead because it wouldn't be able to circulate into your body. And also when you compare the two Bella to Celeste, the younger child Celeste does not have any oil in her stomach.

So she's probably dead when she goes in, whereas the older child who obviously fought back because she's bitter cheek, she's got damage of her frenuline and gum line. She possibly was still alive when she was put into the oil drums. Franz of Borkart, criminal defense attorney founder of Borkart law firm, why should he get a prison bride and steamy makeout sessions? I don't think he can. Wisconsin is a non-conjugable visit state, Nancy. Well, guess what he has. It's happening. I'm telling you they're not supposed to let that.

It's already happened. Yeah. Nanny, nini, boo-boo, don't do that again. It's already happened. How is it happening? So, Nancy, even though he's incarcerated for the rest of his life, he still enjoys the same constitutional rights that we do. That includes the right to have visitors, the right to be married.

As sick and as disgusting, it may be. I'm sorry, I'm looking at the Constitution, the pocket constitution I carry you with me. I don't see anything in here about a three-time, some would argue, four-time convicted killer, having a right to conjugal visits. The Constitution does not have the word conjugal in it. In one place, would you like to tell everybody what conjugal means? Sex. Conjugal means intimacy. Intimacy. Okay, what? Look around. Are you in pre-K? No. Conjugal visits means sex visits,

like Jorn Vandersluet has with all the women that come to see him. I believe he's father of two children since he was behind bars. That's what conjugal visits mean. Oh, dear, don't take him down. The sight of him makes me ill. Nancy, that's what a conjugal business is. I don't see anywhere where the founding father said, convicted killers have a right to get it on. But he hasn't had conjugal visits. Is there an allegation that he's had sex with this woman? I don't think there is.

Head blowing off. Dave Matt, can you please help Franz Borghardt? It's already happened. There are witnesses that saw the steamy makeout session behind bars on visiting. day. Nancy, in Wisconsin, in this prison, each inmate is allowed eight to 10 seconds of physical contact with their visitor when the person arrives and when they leave. But for anybody who's familiar with how the prison system works and are witnesses in there that saw the makeout session, it can go much longer than the eight to 10 seconds. Once you allow touching, it goes as

far as they can possibly take it. And that's what apparently is happening. guards just turned the other way. To Ruth Bischenski joining us, investigative crime reporter at D.L.A. Mail, who broke this story, there are steamy makeout sessions going down. I don't know who this woman is, but before I get to who is mysterious Lizzie, what can you, can you refresh Franz Borkhart's recollection? In other words, talk some sense into him. It's happening.

It's not supposed to happen. It's already happened. Nancy is right, Franz. It is happening. They have, apparently they did get married somehow. You know, we attempted to get those records and we were getting some pushback from, I guess, the officials in Wisconsin, because unless I was next of kin, they wouldn't release any information about what officially went down with Lizzie Henderson and Chris Watts. But what we know is that she was wearing a wedding band, a wedding ring. She legally changed her name to Lizzie Watts. And it just seems like, it seems crazy. I mean,

I'm sitting here and this whole story is bizarre. I think we're all wondering the same thing. Why would she want to be with someone who is an absolute psychopath? I'm still trying to investigate that. You know, God willing, I'll find the answer at some point. But yeah, so it's, it's happening in real time. And I'm sure she's still going to continue seeing him because now she's his wife. You were seeing pictures of Lizzie Henderson, the blushing bride from our friends at Daily Mail. I was in a really, really, really bad place. And I got a friend request from Chris on Facebook. And I was like, oh, what the heck? I'm never going to meet him. Except one thing led to another and eight years later, we have two kids.

We live in Colorado and he's the best thing that has ever happened to me. That is Shanan Watts, pregnant with baby Nico at the time she was murdered and buried in a shallow grave, not far from where her two daughters were disposed of in those oil canisters. Dr. Kendall Crowns, could you explain what is coffin, birth? So, cough and birth is when a pregnant individual decomposes and the gases that are formed by the bacteria of decomposition, causing the body to swell and blow it up. And the pregnant person, these gases begin to push on the uterus and if it creates enough pressure, it actually forces the unborn fetus out of the birth canal along with the placenta. So coffin birth birth is a pregnant

woman who is decomposed and then the decomposition gas pushes the baby out. Shanan had coffin birth there in that shallow grave at the Anadarko oil fields. Baby Nico was born. Both of them dead, of course, when her body was discovered. So now we've got Lizzie Henderson under his spell. We had Shanan under his spell. And here is Amanda McMahon clearly under. his spell. What spell that is? I'm not sure, but listen.

He just kind of pulled in next to me and he rolled down the pasture window and I rolled down, you know, my window and he was like come in or like, you know, I'm locked and he said, get in here or whatever. He was very, he was very sure, very forward, very sure of himself. He was able to turn, you know, turn on the charm for anything he needed. From our friends at Daily Mail. The new Red Bull Dragonberry and Tropic Berry Energizers now at McDonough. McDonald's made with freeze-dried fruit and an electric burst of flavor.

The all-new Red Bull Energizers. Now at McDonald's. This product may not be right for you. High in caffeine, details on McDonald's.C.A. at participating Canadian restaurants excluding Quebec. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. I need help. A guy comes up, rolls down the window and says, get in, and you just jump in?

Okay. to Dr. Gierlin Utter joining us, clinical psychologists specializing in psychological evaluations just like this, author of Main Lining Philly Survival Hope Resisting Drug Addiction, Author of Aftershock, How Past Events Shake Up Your Life Today, and Produced for Start of Utter Nonsense. Help me out. He rolls down the window and says, get in, and she just jumps in like curb service, you know, like at a sonic, you pull up, you toot, toot, and they bring you a hamburger like that. Like that, exactly like that. So I think it's important to pay attention to what she said after that. She said he was very forward. She was, she indicated that he was very assertive.

And there's something that I kind of want to bring to everyone's attention. There's a psychological concept, Nancy, called the halo effect. And the halo effect has to do with what somebody looks like. So people who are perceived objectively as more attractive or handsome, they tend to, like, positive traits get associated or attached to them. Whereas somebody who's less attractive, you know, you think he's handsome, Dr. Jerylund? I think he looks like Satan. He looks like Satan to you, but there are people and women out there that find him attractive. And don't put me in that list, because I'm with you, Nancy. I don't feel as though he's attractive at all. But there's a concept called the Halo Effect, a psychological concept. And that concept has to do with people who are

perceived as attractive, it's hard for you to associate bad things with them. So if you're attractive and you're good looking, then people can't wrap around their heads that they could do something like this. They essentially get away with more, which is a perfect concept or quality to have if somebody perceives you as attractive and to also be a sociopath, which is what Christopher Watts is. To Ruth Bischenski joining us, investigative crime reporter at Daly Mail who broke this story, Ruth, what can you tell me about the prison visit? So Nancy, there was a, I found this woman, she actually was visiting a loved one at the Dodge Correctional facility where Chris is staying in for the rest of his life. And she saw, she was actually in shock because Chris was a few feet away

from her. She was with her person, just having a snack. The next thing she knows, she turns around and sees Chris Watts with this woman. They were reading the Bible together. She was kind of having, like, a silent freak out, like turning around going, does anyone see what I'm seeing? This is Chris Watts. He killed his wife and unborn son and two little daughters. And she was kind of having like a moment and she walked closer to him so she can see his name tag that said Chris Watts and she told me that she so wanted to say to him, you're my hero. Daddy's my hero, but obviously she knew she would get kicked out of the facility if she did. But she was thinking what we're all thinking, why is he allowed to have this so-called girlfriend now wife? And she was just as, you know,

agitated as we were, like thinking, how could this go on? And when I spoke to Lizzie on the phone, she basically doesn't, she was very angry that I was actually trying to find her. She was angry that I was reaching out to family members. She did not want to be called. She doesn't want to be in the public eye. She basically was very defensive of being with Chris, and she was saying like it was between her Chris and God and that, you know, people could perceive their relationship as being very strange and weird. And Chris knows how she feels, but she said that, you know, basically it's really no one's business. And, you know, she's kind of like an alternative universe, I feel like. She just is in denial with these heinous crimes that he committed. And she doesn't want to be in the

public eye. And she's telling me she's a very... private person. But meanwhile, she's with America's most hated person in the world. You know, kill her dad. Ruth Baczynski, I appreciate them reading the Bible together. But what about the makeout session as Franz Borghardt says, that didn't happen? Yes, it did. It's called a conjugal visit Borghardt. Is she the same one that saw that go down? She saw, okay, so when she was in the visiting room and she saw Chris Watts. She saw them, they're not allowed to have any physical touch during the actual visit.

All they can really do is talk and hold the Bible and pray. But when it was time to, when she arrived and when she left, they were literally hugging and making out and kissing. They were literally all over each other. And then they got to take a picture together. And, you know, I don't know, he pays for it out of his commissary. It's like $1.25. And, you know, she saw them.

They were ahead of her holding each other for this prison photo. And, of course, I was dying to see that prison photo. I'll never get to see it, I hope, but never say never. And, yeah, she saw it with her own eyes, and she was freaking out. And I'm so happy that she shared this story with me, and I got to report on it. So, yeah, who knows? Maybe she'll be pregnant. Who knows?

We kind of connected or, I guess, bonded over the fact that we, We were both going through what he told me separation from his. He called her his baby mama, like, just like, he never referred to her as his wife, like, ever. I never remember him saying that. He took the angle that she was using the kids as a pawn for him and kind of just dangling him and making his life miserable about it. He'd call her a f-a-fitting psycho and gold digging . like any, like, just shot that you could take.

He said that her purpose in life was to make him miserable at one point. I knew, you know, what it was when going into it, and he made it very clear. Okay, from our friends at Daly Mill, let me understand that, what I'm seeing right there, to Ruth Boshinsky. There you're you saying, one, I mean, get in line of his many mistresses. That's Amanda McMahon, stating we connected and bonded over the fact we were going through what he told me separation, you mean, they're still married. That's what that means. He called her his baby mama. It's a good thing. I don't have a gun because if my husband ever call me that,

there would be some shooting. Okay, he called her the baby mama. Okay, what else? He never referred to her as his wife. He took the angle, the children were a pawn, and he called her a psycho and a gold digger. she was the one working having to travel out of town she worked she redecorated the whole home on a budget she bought the clothes for the children she took care of the children she fed the children he just showed up what and he's calling her the gold digger well it shows you how twisted his mind was i mean he was you're not dealing with someone normal clearly i mean um you know when amanda met Chris, they met on Tinder, and it just seems like he was, you know, going through all these dating apps and Amanda seemed like she was just part of his playbook. And, you know, when they met at

the Chick-fil-A, we reported on this and they went in the car that had the tinted windows and then they drove to her apartment and they had, you know, their sexual encounter. They were, you know, playing a really strange movie in the background. I'm sure you'll get to that. Shutter Island. That movie was so eerie. It was about Leonardo DiCaprio was in it. It's about this Marshall that kills his children first,

and then he kills his wife. And Chris was the one who decided to choose that movie when he was alone with Amanda having, you know, very rough sex. That terrified her, basically. Just like what went on in that bedroom, I just can't stop thinking about it because I felt like he was enacting what he was eventually going to do with Shanan. So, I mean, I can go on. What?

You know, I mean, you know, she described it as, you know, he put his hands around her neck. He was choking her. He went from normal to crazy. His eyes just completely changed. and that he basically had this animalistic fury in him. So, you know, he, like, turns her around and wanted to do things to her that, you know, so violating. Like, you know, they were pretty much on a first date. You know, it's one thing that they got intimate, but how he was acting towards her was just completely so scary.

I mean, it's hard to believe they continued with this 10-month relationship. but that's what they did. She was going through a tough time with her ex and custody of their kids. He was lying to her every minute. She was also addicted to prescription drugs. They were both in, she was in a bad place. She wasn't thinking rationally.

That's why she chose Chris. But clearly he was, he's a madman. I have no idea what Lizzie Henderson sees him. And I'm just intrigued as the whole country. When we met at that first time in the parking lot, you know, like... The new Red Bull Dragonberry and Tropic Berry Energizers, now at McDonald's, made with freeze-dried fruit and an electric burst of flavor. The all-new Red Bull Energizers, now at McDonald's. This product may not be right for you.

High in caffeine, details of McDonald's.cai at participating Canadian restaurants, excluding Quebec. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I knew it was going to happen. The whole thing was just off. It was like, you know, it was like a snap of finger. Like things just kind of changed. Like he just got like, it's like something came over him and we went from normal to crazy like brutal almost. He just didn't look the same in his eyes. It happened way too fast. You know, and it, it, it threw me off. I wasn't scared like I was going to die. I was scared like he was going to hurt me, you know, like not intentionally. We, um, it, um, it threw, it threw me off. I wasn't scared like I was going to die. I was scared like he was going to hurt me. You know, like not intentionally. We, we, we only ever had sex, like maybe two other times, I would always, you know, I mean, he definitely hit me up a lot more. And for that, we hung out a few more times without the physical stuff. He was extremely rough and he didn't really ask permission and, like, he choked me, pretty aggressive. It's really awkward for me to talk about all this. He had his hand on my neck when, and it probably a few minutes in. And this one, it kind of turned a little crazy. So he had put his

hand on my throat and I get a little freaked out anyway and you just kind of had this like animalistic fury I'm like it was just hard it was rough and he just went into his own he just didn't look the same in his eyes he took me by the neck and he grabbed me from underneath he pulled me up and then he like turned me down and it was very very uncomfortable it was weird that's from our friends at daily mill and the trial USA. Well, the new prison bride, the mysterious Lizzie Henderson,

is not the first woman to fall for and marry a convicted killer. Until death do us part. A forever promise to have a to hold. But what if you can't hold them?

What if they're behind bars for murder? Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Menendez brothers, Chris Watts. They all found love in Luka. As a victim of violent crime myself, these murder matchups behind bars are very hard for me to understand. Why do women marry men who murder? Why? With all the men in the world, would anyone ever marry a murderer? It feels wonderful. I'm so happy. I'm so thrilled. Very proud and a little relieved that the bulk of the day is over. And just hopefully I can enjoy the rest of my day in peace with Richard's family.

And think about the importance of what happened today. That from our friends at Fox Nation marrying a murderer and from hard copy, that was Doreen Loy, Richard. Ramirez's wife. But there's more. Have you ever found somebody that you kind of feel like kind of saved you when you lost yourself? I almost feel like he's like my, my lighthouse. He guided me back to where I really needed to be. Gonzalez admits he takes the butt of a gun and beats Thornburg repeatedly in the head, bashing his skull in and leaving him on the floor to bleed out and die. Gonzalez confessed and he pled guilty.

In court, under oath, he pleads guilty to a brutal murder. But it didn't matter to his prison bride, and we see it played out again now with killer dad, Chris Watts. That's from our friends at Fox Nation, and you were hearing Kathy Gonzalez, Tattoo Gonzalez's wife. joining us now as a special guest. Sherilyn Catole, the author of The Murders of Christopher Watts and the many faces of Christopher Watts, a five-year update. Sherilyn, thank you for being with us tonight. What's your take on the new prison bride? Well, I'm not surprised. Back in early 24, she She messaged me and told me that she was kind of with him and wanted to know what I thought. And I told her what I thought.

And she ended up cussing me out and telling me I was so totally wrong. Well, at the very beginning, when I asked him about her, he denied knowing her. And when I told her that, she got really angry. And I didn't know for sure because there's a lot of women that have messaged me and said that they are getting letters from him and they're very sexual and they felt, you know, this romantic tie to him. So I don't know about Lizzie here. She's not going to be the only one. I hope she realizes that. But what I question that I have, Nancy, is are those Shanan's wedding rings that Lizzie is wearing? Oh, dear Lord in heaven. Okay, Ruth Boshinsky, these are shots from the deal.

Mail. And with us is Ruth Boshinsky, who broke the story, the investigative crime reporter at Daily Mail. Is he using his dead wife's wedding band and rings with Liz? You know what, Nancy? Liz, that is literally the first thing that went through my minds. I'm like, that has got to be Shanan's rings. I mean, where would he get them? But we are looking into that right now, Nancy, because I need to find out where those rings came from. I doubt they came from. I don't know where they're from, but it seems like it could be shenanes. Ruth, Ruth, Ruth, Ruth.

I guarantee you this. He did not get them at the prison commissary. I believe you, Nancy. What if any financial gain could there possibly be to marry Chris Watts, a family annihilator? A guy that's had a string of affairs behind his wife's back. Let's think, think, thinking. According to content creator, plunder, please go over, subscribe to her channel, give her credit where it's due.

Lizzie filed a Chapter 7 bankruptcy before moving from Ohio to Wisconsin. Why do I bring this up? And why does Plunder bring it up as well? I mean, we're not here to air dirty laundry. Like I said, a lot of us have known about Lizzie for two years and have said nothing because we care about this woman's genuine safety. It's not about going after her because she's with Chris Watts. We're here to be like, honey, we want you to find Jesus and get away from Chris Watts.

But anyway, I digress. So the reason we bring up the Chapter 7 bankruptcy is it would show motive as to why would you marry Chris Watts. To Sherlyn Catole joining us, author of The Murders of Christopher Watts and the Many Faces of Christopher Watts, a five-year update. Sherilyn, isn't it true that Christopher Watts stated at some point during the investigation, he took Shanan's rings off her finger and set them on the bedside table? Yes, and I do believe that his mother ended up with him for him. He has very few things that they were able to keep. But the wedding rings were, I will be so shocked that those are not the wedding rings that Shanan wore.

Okay, Dr. Gerald and Utter, what does that mean? Who wants to wear a murdered woman's wedding rings and band? This has got to mean something. psychologically, but I'm just a trial lawyer. So what does it mean? If we assume that that's even true, I mean, with my experience working with incarcerated individuals and people who love them, a lot of the times the women who get married, you know, to men who are incarcerated or partners who are incarcerated are actually out there buying their own rings on their own dime. So I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, if she purchased them

herself. But I think, but I think the bigger issue here is, and what people are like, I don't understand how a person can do this. How can a woman do this? He's an annihilator. He's a sociopath. But this is one thing psychologically that, that you want to pay attention to. A lot of women aren't, this woman in particular, Lizzie, is not seeing the Chris that killed his family. Yes, intellectually, she has received that information and she knows. But what she, what she's saying and what her own psyche is doing is she's thinking, well, all, you know, I can get to the good man underneath. Like, I know that there's a good guy there. And I'm the one, me, Lizzie, I'm the one who has helped bring that out. And, you know, this

relationship's going to be different. Another thing that is really important to understand is regardless if you're getting conjugal visits or you're getting a little sexy or intimacy or whatever you want to call it with someone in prison, the other thing that you want to remember is it, it does not test what happens in the real world. He will never be able to do to Lizzie what he did to Amanda and obviously what he did to Shannon. So him, you know, that dark, the eyes getting dark and having like sex with her and it being rough, it'll never get like that with her. So for Lizzie, it affords her the opportunity to continue living in this fantasy world

that isn't representative of the real Chris. So, you know, when people say, how can a woman be like that? It's because they're getting a version, not the, not the murderer version. They're getting a different version of this person. and they'll never get close to Chris Watts the murderer. She'll never see that the way that other people in the outside world have. I don't think that Ted belongs in jail. The things in Florida don't concern me any more than the things out west do.

And those are the things. Do you think these are trumped-up charges? I don't think they had reason to charge Ted Bundy with murder in either Leon County or Columbia County. Are you in love? Yeah. The paperwork hasn't gone through yet, but we already consider each other to be a husband and wife. People think crazy. Mm-hmm. I really don't care. There are many who would look at Richard Ramirez in the eye and say he is the face of evil.

And yet you look at him and you see the man of your dreams. Who needs glasses here? I can't help the way the world looks at him. They don't know him the way I do. Okay, just a quick round up. The first woman you saw is Carol Ann Boone, Ted Bundy's wife. The next is from our friends at CNN. That's Afton Star, Elaine Burton, Charles Manson's fiancée.

And the last one you saw is Doreen Loy, Richard Ramirez's wife. Okay, I'd like to just say, what he's wrong with him? but they seem normal to Franz Borkhart joining us, veteran trial lawyer out of the Baton Rouge jurisdiction. Could this be a ploy to dig herself out of a bankruptcy? Is that why she's with Chris Watts? Or attention-seeking behavior? Because she's got a platform now.

We're talking about her. We're on national TV, no less. So it could be that. Wisconsin has a son of San Francisco. law where he can't profit off of his crime. I don't know that it extends to her, Nancy. So can she profit off of her story? Yeah, I think that she can profit off of the relationship.

Yes, that's an excellent point, Franz. To Cheryl and Cato, joining us, author of The Murders of Christopher Watts and the Many Faces of Christopher Watts, the five-year update, you worked with him extensive. creating those two books. Is he that charming

that he could literally charm the pants off this woman? Not to me, he's not, but I can see why some women who maybe have a need for the extra affection or attention or maybe something happened in their... I'm not a psychiatrist, so I'm not able to say exactly what happened, but why she would want someone like that,

it's got to be attention seeking like they've said or that she's had something in her past. Look at your screen, Cheryl. Look at your monitor. Yes. That's a sheet that Jan was wrapped in. She had the baby in that sheet. The dirt. Yeah. The blood. That's where she gave birth to baby Nico. And then he just shovel the dirt on her face. And somehow he's still getting women, even behind bars, is a prison bride. Just a quick reality check to Dr. Kendall Crowns, esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU and a renowned medical examiner.

Dr. Kendall Crowns, could you just remind us what happened to Shanan? So Shanan had injuries of her neck that were consistent with a manual strangulation, hemorrhages in her neck, musculature. So she was strangled until she passed out, and then her husband continued to strangle her for another three to four minutes until she was dead. Once she was dead, she was then buried in a shallow grave where she decomposed over time. Her body's changing green discoloration, skin slipping off, filling up with decompositional gases that then created the pressure that resulted in the coffin berth or the baby Nico being expelled out of the vaginal canal.

So she died a fairly brutal death because it's a manual strangulation. So she probably fought back and was just strangled until she was dead. And then I looked at her and I just caught on top of her. And you got to tell you to knock her down? No. She was already on the ground. I was like, I just pulled her off on the bed and all kind of one moved out. Okay.

So it's not as though he had. I didn't pull it on, you know. Like, I went to pull her down and did that. I didn't know. I lost it. Sure. Okay. So Shannon was laying on the crime?

On the bed. On the bed. My babies are gone. I had put my hands around my wife's neck and did that same thing. Did Shann fight back at all? You did that? The rage that I had after seeing that, like, are they in the tanks? Can somebody who doesn't know what they're doing open those?

Okay, it's easy to open. What's in the tanks? Some mixture of oil and water. There was a sheet found down here? Mm-hmm. What was that from? That was what Chanel was wrapped in. What about the curleys?

What were they wrapped in? Is there some of their blankets or anything? Where did their blankets and toys and stuff go? Probably it blew them back on the land or something right here. Where did you show? at them or put them. That was right here. Shanan wants

pregnant with Nico. Four-year-old Bella, three-year-old Celeste, all dead, and he, their killer, has a new prison bride and steaming make-out sessions.

We wait as justice unfolds. And now we remember an American hero, Lieutenant John Stewart Lake City, P.D., South Carolina, killed in the line of duty after 21 years on the force, leaving behind his sons, Nicholas and Deshaun, American hero, Lieutenant John Stewart. Thank you to our guests for being with us, but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy Gray is signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night, and until then. This is an I-Heart podcast, Guaranteed Human.

Thank you.