Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KILLER DAD: I felt no remorse when daughter's body drops into oil, strangles wife til her "eyes fill with blood" (Chris Watts)

Episode Date: October 9, 2019

Correspondence between murderer Chris Watts and Cherlyn Cadle has been gathered in a collection to be released as a book in October. In it, Watts tells Cadle that his wife Shanann's eyes filled with blood as he strangled her. With Nancy Grace today to discuss the details Watts has revealed: Wendy Patrick,  California prosecutor; Steven Lampley, former detective, Author "Outside Your Door"; Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist; Joe Scott Morgan, Forensics Expert, Professor of Forensics, Author,"Blood Beneath My Feet"; and Alexis Terezchuck,  Entertainment Editor, Radaronline.com.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. My daddy is a hero. He helps me grow up strong. He helps me snuggle too. He reads me books. He ties my shoes. If you're a hero blue and blue, my daddy

daddy will love you. Every time I hear that, it still just makes my heart hurt so much. You were hearing four-year-old little Bella sitting in the back seat, and I was just thinking about when my children were still in car seats. They still have, you know, each side that they've been sitting on since they were little. It still stuck to their sides of the minivan. No more car seats, but I heard Lucy singing some song, one of the hymns from our church, I think, and John David trying to chime in, and I just listened to them a couple of days ago. That's never going to happen for Shanann Watts.

She'll never hear Bella, Four, Celeste, Three singing again in the backseat. Why? They're dead. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You know, it's the only one I didn't mention in that family scenario was Daddy. And there's a reason for that. Chris Watts now blames one of his many lovers, his mistresses, during his marriage to Shanann, including when she was pregnant at the time of her death, blames the mistress for killing all three of them, describing in horrific detail how his pregnant wife, Shanann's eyes filled with blood as he strangled her dead.

With me, an all-star panel, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, Stephen Lampley, detective, author of Outside Your Door, psychotherapist and host of a Facebook live program on Times Square, Dr. Robbie Ludwig, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, Joseph Scott Morgan, but right now, to RadarOnline.com's investigative reporter, Alexis Tereszczuk. Alexis, does it never end with this guy? Why won't he shut up? Of course, we don't say the S word in our house. The twins think the S word is shut up. I'm sure that won't last long. But Alexis, why won't he just be quiet and go away? Chris Watts is so disturbed. It's like he can't get enough of hearing himself talk and talking. And to me,

these are just lies. He's coming up with more and more lies about his family. He has said now that he would never have killed these kids were it not for his mistress, Nicole Kessinger, and blames her completely. She was not there. She was not. Which one is she? Now, is she the co-worker? Is she one of the ones he met on Grindr or Tinder or something? She's actually the co-worker and the co-worker and her dad worked with him. So, there is no way on earth. What do you mean she's actually the co-worker? Like that's somehow better than all the women he met on Grindr or Tinder. Which one was it? Grindr or Tinder? I think Tinder, right? Tinder. Okay. So she's actually the co-worker. What is she like? Got on her white gloves at the tea party? Oh, H-E-L-L-No,

Alexis. She's right in there stewing in the same pot as all the others i think they knew he was married i know she knew he was married he she knew he wasn't divorced yet she knew he had children as a matter of fact isn't she the one that when shenan was away he actually brings her to the house and makes her tuna fish sandwich lunch or some bs like that tuna fish my rear end yes he brought her to the house drove her in the car that Shanann had worked so hard because Shanann was out of town. Shanann worked so hard in her job. Okay. Just let me put this out there. And Wendy Patrick, you'll have to come make a cameo appearance as a defense lawyer if this happens. If I ever find out David Eugene Lynch has another woman up in my minivan, oh, no, I will blow the whole thing up.

Okay? Just bam. All right? There. I said it. Go ahead, Alexis. That's what he did in her car, brings her over to his house, the house that he shared with his wife and his two little girls,

made her lunch. I'm sure there was some monkey business going on. Okay, here's Jackieard here in the studio with dave mack just again spin have you did you know an owl actually can't spin its head 360 degrees around it john david told me that the other night with one of his believe it or not facts but it looks like she's spinning her head all the way around. She says, forget about driving Shanann's. What does she have, Alexis? But he had the woman in bed, in their bed. And that's the thing.

They were in the room, in the house, everything that they did. Alexa, I think I care more about the $80,000 Alexis than I would the $10 Target sheets, but go ahead. And this is the bed that he eventually killed his wife in. So he brings this mistress, Nicole Kessinger. They were together for months and months and months. He was spending all of his money on her, and that's how Shanann found out. Well, she was suspicious anyway, but this was the actual proof, the smoking gun that she needed. She saw she was out of town. He was going to a restaurant that was, I believe, Red Lobster, which is really expensive.

And it was not a meal for one. It was obviously a meal for two. They don't have any money right now. They're in a financial crisis. She sees this and she says, what is going on with you? Okay, let me just tell you about Red Lobster. Okay. The twins and I have been watching Young Sheldon because I saw it on a plane.

And the sister, sister Missy wanted to go to the most expensive fancy restaurant in Texas and the dad went okay what she goes Red Lobster long story short the twins see this and they suddenly it was Lucy suddenly wants to go to Red Lobster they both got lobster they ate it like I mean yeah okay they racked up a bill my two twins i didn't have the heart to say why did you pick out the most expensive thing on the menu but yes so you can tell by looking at the receipt whether it's one or two you know dr robbie ludwig with me psychotherapist that hosts her own show on at times square, Robbie Ludwig, you're listening to what Alexis is saying. Quote, if I hadn't met Nikki, I would never have killed my family.

What is that? Blaming somebody else for him murdering not one, not two, but three people, a three-year-old, a four-year-old, and his pregnant wife. I mean, that is just BS. And I think with this type of classic sociopath, there's just a making of stories to save the self. I don't even think Chris believes half the things that come out of his mouth. This murder did not happen because of a mistress. This happened because of the life Chris wanted to live and he felt was outside of his marriage. And this was his only way out. But it sounds good. It sounds convincing.

And maybe it'll stick. And that's what the sociopath does. It's lie on top of lie on top of lie until one is convincing enough to stick. To Wendy Patrick, a veteran California prosecutor, author of Red Flags on Amazon, as if she has extra time in between prosecuting felony crimes to write a book, but she did. Wendy Patrick, this is not uncommon. It's blame shifting, or as the twins like to say shapeshifter because suddenly he's not a bad guy anymore he's not a triple killer actually quadruple killer if you count the baby baby Nico that Shanann was carrying suddenly it's Nikki's fault it's all her fault it goes all the way back to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Adam did it and then blamed Eve. Is there not any new moves in the playbook, Wendy Patrick? in excruciating detail, but perhaps was not the result he was expecting. It just makes it more aggravating, more heartbreaking, and makes it more difficult to understand how any human being could

do it because of his explanation of his motive. Oh, because it was the mistress. Now, whether or not he phrases it as, oh, well, it's her fault, what kind of a relationship survives a murder? We always wonder that every single time there's a mistress that is to quote unquote blame for somebody losing it and killing their entire family well i distinctly remember when it all went down chris watts w-a-t-t-s what's going on right now around your house right now it's's got K-9 units, the sheriff's department. Everybody's like they're doing their best right now to figure out if they can get a scent and see where they went.

If they went on foot, they went in a car, they went somewhere. Right now it's just like they've been on point. They're going through the house trying to get a scent. Hopefully they can pick something up to where it's going to lead to something. What happened? Your wife came home. Tell me what's going on. She came home from the airport at 2 a.m., and I left around 5, 15. She was still here.

And, like, about 12, 10, in that afternoon, her friend Nicole showed up at the door. Like, I had texted Shanann a few times that day, called her, say, you know. But she never got back to me, but she wasn't getting back to any of her people as well. And that's what really concerned a lot of people. She's not getting back to her people. If she doesn't get back to me, that's fine. She gets busy during the day. But she didn't get back to her people, which was very concerning.

And Nicole called me when she was at the door, and that's when I came home. And then walked in the house and nothing. It's vanished. Nothing was here. I mean, she wasn't here. The kids weren't here. Nobody was here. Well, his lips are moving. You know what that means. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To give you some background, the Frederick Police Department received a missing person call just before 2 p.m. on Monday, August 23, 2018. Our agency launched an investigation conducting interviews, neighborhood canvases, in an effort to locate Shanann and her two girls Bella and Celeste. We also contacted the FBI

and the CBI to assist in this case. In addition to providing investigative agents and crime scene responders, a missing in danger alert was announced on Tuesday afternoon. Frederick PD conducted additional canvases or flyers featuring Shanann, Celeste and Bello were distributed throughout the evening. Finally in the late hours of Wednesday evening, the husband, Chris Watts, was taken into custody. At this point we have been able to recover a body that we're quite certain is Shanann Watts' body.

We have strong reason to believe that we know where the bodies of the children are, and recovery efforts are in process on that. You are hearing a police presser as they break the news to the public that they believe they have found all three bodies of Shanann Watts, age 34, baby Bella, age 4, baby Celeste, age 3, to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, and author of Blood Beneath My Feet. He is a death investigator and has investigated literally thousands of homicides, suicides, accidents, natural cause deaths. Joe Scott Morgan, please describe for us

the way the bodies were found. Where were they and what were their conditions? Well, when it comes to Shanann, her body was found buried in a shallow grave that is actually in a petroleum processing area way out in the middle of nowhere. In the context of the grave in which she was found, it's bare, raw soil that wasn't very deep, Nancy, and that's why they were able to locate her, I think, pretty easily. But what's really kind of poignant here is that in the midst of this grave where they discovered her body, she had had what is referred to as a coffin birth. She had literally, her body had expelled the remains of unborn little Nico that died as a result of what his father had done to Shanann. And then of course in the adjacent area where those these huge huge wells are, they're actually storage containers, the bodies individually

of these two precious little girls are found floating literally in raw petroleum. And you know Nancy, when I initially saw the images from the scene, I could hear the emotion in the police officer's voice. He was well aware at that point in time what had happened because these little girls were literally forced through what's referred to as a thief hatch, which is this tiny little access area to push them down into that area. They fell just, you know, well in excess of 15 feet, probably up to 20 to 25 feet into the depths, this black depths of this petroleum. And he did this just to discard their bodies.

And, of course, the bodies were in horrible condition when the authorities finally were able to recover. And the reality is, to Alexis Terescho at RadarOnline.com, following up on what Joseph Scott Morgan said, to get the girls into these drums, these oil drums of crude oil that Joe Scott was describing, they didn't quite fit. Their shoulders were bigger than the opening of the receptacle. So he had to cram them down or bend their bodies to get them into the tank, Alexis. When the girls were found, they had huge scrapes all over their body because of the way that he had shoved them.

This is only an eight-inch wide hole. So he shoved them in there. Their bodies, they were scraped. They had scratches on their bottoms, which I guess sticks out a little bit. So that's where it would scrape as he was shoving them into this hole. And then when the investigators had pulled these children out of this oil, they had to drain the whole tank very carefully. It took a very long time.

Pulled them out. The girls were degloved. What that means is that their skin had come off their bodies because they had been soaking in this oil but chris has changed his story so many times because he's such a liar are you what whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa you sound like one of the oj jurors what calling him oj oh calling him by his first name like what you think you're gonna have dinner with him at his place one night that's not not happening, Alexis. He's behind bars now. I didn't know you were on a first name basis with him. Mr. Watts has changed his story so many times. Or just Watts

is fine or killer dad. Oh, the killer dad. Hey, Alexis, before we get into all of his lying ways, how did these letters come forward? I mean, you've got the one where he's describing, oh, hey, Steve Lampley, before I go to Alexis with me, Detective Stephen Lampley, author of Outside Your Door. You can find him at stephenlampley.com. Steve, did you hear him talking? That was day one of missing about giving the chronology of when she went missing and the friend came to the door he's lying through his teeth as he was i watched that numerous times and it seemed like every time i watched it i caught a new set or a new lie his repeating words his use of pronouns his face his face shifting, I knew the man was guilty.

I was just waiting for the evidence to follow up. And, of course, it didn't take long thereafter. Like you said a while ago, his lips were moving. He was lying. You know, and I know everybody thinks we're jaded, Stephen, but at a certain point, having dealt with everybody on this panel anyway, when you've dealt with literally thousands of witnesses, defendants, victims, you get a very good sense of who is lying. Alexis Tereschuk, the letter where he described after he has sex with her, in his mind, he knew it was one last time. He was already embroiled in a sex relationship with the co-worker and there were all the women he was meeting online for motel hookups he knew he was going to kill her

but he had sex with her one last time then got on top of her straddled her and strangled her dead and in these letters he describes how her eyes filled up with blood and she was actually praying as she died. Then he killed the two children. Where are these letters coming from, Alexis? There is a woman who started writing to him. She doesn't know him. She had no connection to the case at all. She started writing to him in prison because she said she felt like she could help him and maybe bring him closer to God, which is sort of a theme with everybody that writes to people in prison, which is so strange to me. Well, they either want to bring them closer to God. They want to make money off of them or they want to have sex with them. That's my experience with

people that get that are these pen pals with inmates. They either want to save their soul. God bless them. They want to make money off of them, like selling their letters or their whatever memorabilia they can get from them. Or they want to have sex slash marry them. That's my experience, Alexis. Well, it looks like she's going to make money off of Chris. And I don't think that she has brought him to God because he hasn't really even said he was sorry or asked for forgiveness at all during this entire story. So this woman. Isn't it true on one of her visits, she actually brings him a cheeseburger, a bag of chips and a Mountain Dew?

Yes. And they, they, she said when they first, when she first started to visit him, they were not allowed to have any physical contact because he's in such a, he's in a maximum security prison. But as their visits went on and on, they're now allowed to spend time physically with each other. And she just gives him hugs and that she thinks that makes him feel better after he killed his wife and his two children. Okay, Dr. Robbie Ludwig, I keep trying to introduce you through your new program at Times Square. What is the name of it? It's Talking Live with Dr. Robbie Ludwig. Did you know what he tells this woman writing the book Letters from Christopher? He says to her, quote, all I could feel was now I was free to be with Nikki. Feelings of my love for her was, grammatical error, was overcoming me.

I, quote, I felt no remorse. That's what he tells author Sherilyn Cato. of that is true that part of what triggered the killings was this desire for a new life to have a do-over to start over with a woman he felt would give him the opportunity to feel successful be successful feel in love and get it right this time around but i always well wait a minute wait get it right this time around what But I always... Well, wait a minute, wait, get it right this time around. What were the three children? He got it wrong. He got something right. He got it wrong. So, you know, Chris Watts got it wrong. He married the wrong woman, had the wrong children, had the wrong bills, had the wrong life. And so he tried to create this almost parallel universe where he was

successful, where it was like kind of bankruptcy, how it kind of like gives you a new chance to start over again. That's what he considered these killings. It was a do-over for him. He was not happy in the reality he had created for himself. And these people he had, this woman he had married, the kids that he created, they were just in the way. And so he needed to get rid of them. I mean, that's the thing with sociopaths. You're really objectified to the point where you don't really exist or matter. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The girls' beds weren't made.

Shanann was very OCD. Everything in her house had a place. Everything was labeled. If something was out of the ordinary, it was really out of the ordinary for her. He does these interviews on Tuesday. What did you think of his demeanor overall? Yeah, it was very odd.

He just was sitting there waiting for something to happen. The last time I talked to him, he said, I just want to cry. And I looked at him and said, why aren't you? Interesting. You are hearing our friends at ABC Nightline talking to Nicole Atkinson. Now, she is the one that Shanann Watts had gone with on a work trip. She brought her home around 2 a.m. as soon as they touched down at the airport. Long flight home.

Little did she know that was the last time she would see her friend Shanann Watts alive. Listen. Atkinson had seen Shanann that morning around 2 a.m., she says, dropping her off at home after returning from an out-of-town business trip. She went inside, turned around and waved at me, and shut the door. But several hours later, the 34-year-old mother of two isn't answering her phone.

She misses a doctor's appointment. Shanann was 15 weeks pregnant. She was gonna get to hear the baby's heartbeat and see how he or she was doing. Growing worried, Atkinson says she went over to their house. Things were not how I would think that they were supposed to be, I guess. The front door was locked differently than it

normally was. I had my son look in the garage to see if her car was there, and it was there, which was really peculiar because Shanann doesn't go places without her car, usually because both of the girls are in cars. are hearing again the friend of shenan watts that was nicole atkinson talking to her friends at abc everything was off but husband chris watts stuck with the lie stuck with the lie and joe scott morgan i really believe it was only when his neighbor called him over and this is on video shows him the video from his home surveillance and you can see Chris Watts going in and out and in and out throughout the morning and the day and you never see Shanann or the girls leave. You do see Chris Watts loading stuff into his vehicle. And you can look at Chris Watts in that video, the neighbor's home surveillance video, and you see him. And now we're

on the nanny cam and you see Chris Watts watching the outdoor surveillance video. and he like holds his hands up to his face like oh my stars i'm so busted explain it joseph scott morgan yeah and it's part and parcel of the of the bigger narrative here he thinks that he's got this thing planned he thinks that he's got you know all of his bases covered but when he least expect it you know i guess in a way the eye of God is shining down upon him. He has that come to Jesus moment where he is literally in focus at that moment in time. And boy, does that picture tell a tale, doesn't it, Nancy, about the reality that he suddenly struck with. And it's really going to come home to roost on down the tracks when they begin to recover these bodies. You know, the 34-year-old dad to Alexis Torres show at RadarOnline.com is so enamored with the co-worker. According to this

author, Cato, he tried to caution and to miscarry the baby Nico by giving her oxycodone. Did you see that? I did. I don't understand why he thinks that would work, but that's what he told her. He said he crushed it up and he tried to give it to her, and that would cause a miscarriage. So he was plotting this murder for months and months, basically as soon as he met this other woman. And instead of divorcing her, just leaving her, he killed her and their two little daughters. And now he's just talking about it, but he has changed his story. I want to go back to where he says the way that he killed her from everything that the medical examiner said, he didn't have a trial, he pleaded guilty, but the medical examiner described what happened. None of this matches up to the evidence of what he did. There was no huge fight or anything like that. According

to the medical examiner from the trial, he basically snuck up behind her in bed and suffocated her like that because of the side of the bruising that was on her neck. So he just keeps changing his story to make it more gruesome and more disgusting. It's almost like he wants more and more attention. He doesn't want people to forget about him. He wants to keep talking about everything that he did. To Whitney Patrick, California prosecutor, I find this very, very interesting. Again, it's the same thing out of a playbook. He suddenly starts getting fit again. Okay. he was a tiny, tiny bit pudgy. Suddenly, he's working out.

He's taking pictures of his abs. He's getting tans. He's showing off his tattoo. Got a new haircut. Hello! Ding, ding, ding. He's having an affair. If I found David Lynch taking pictures of his abs, I would do a backflip.

And I think we all know why, Wendy Patrick. Yeah, you know, you bring up a great point. Circumstantial evidence is often just as good as direct evidence, sometimes better when you don't know what the motive is for somebody's subsequent conduct. It is true that these are telltale signs that something else is going on on the side. However, you can always imagine the defense in any case like this will come back and argue, you know, a lot of people decide for the first time in their 40s or 50s to decide to get fit. But when you pair that conduct with so much else that was going on that doesn't add up and the facts that cannot be corroborated that come from a defendant,

that is exactly when you notice that these types of signs do, in fact, point to the inevitable, something on the side, having an affair, i.e., in this case and cases like it, motive for murder. You know, according to this author, Sherilyn Cato, quote, after Christopher killed his family and drove away, Nikki texts him to look up the song by Metallica called, quote, Battery. I challenge you to look up the full lyrics of this song. I find it interesting that we should believe it's only a coincidence. Alexis Tereschuk, it's very dark. They're very dark lyrics. lashing out the action, returning the reaction.

Weak or ripped and torn away. Hypnotizing power, crushing all that power. Battery is here to stay. Smashing through the boundaries. Lunacy has found me. Pounding out aggression turns into obsession. Cannot kill the battery. Cann cannot kill the battery, cannot kill the family, battery is found in me, crushing deceivers, mashing non-believers, never-ending potency, hungry violence seeker, feeding off the weaker, breathing on insanity.

That's the lyrics she sent him? Is that correct, Alexis? I mean, in the minutes after he murders his wife and children? Yes, and that's the thing. They had such a bizarre relationship. Most people are sending, like, naked pictures and love notes. Instead, she's sending these violent lyrics. And he had spent all this time trying to get rid of his wife and telling her that everything was going to be over.

He was going to be with her. How on earth could this woman think that it was just going to be, oh, I'm just going to leave my wife and my children. This was such, he's such a violent person that he, and he hid this from so many people, except this mistress was totally involved in the same thing, sending these violent lyrics and living this fantasy lifestyle that they were going to be together after his wife and his girls just disappeared. You know, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, I always say there was no coincidence in criminal law that she, the lover, would send him this in the minutes after he murders his family? Yeah, it doesn't make any sense at all. And, you know, you just kind of think how in the world can any possible relationship survive a

murder? It's also interesting, the Amber Frey connection. And you wonder how many other one of these, and we could probably discuss one each month, where you have exactly this, a pregnant wife and a mistress, and somehow this belief, sometimes on both of their parts, that there's going to be some quality of relationship after this kind of a murder. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace so he tells you everything's normal she's on a play date yes and you didn't buy that no because shenan like in my mind i couldn't figure out why she'd go on a play date without her car atkinson says she tells Watts she's calling

the police for a welfare check and that he says he'll meet her at the couple's home. You knew even then his story was not adding up. It wasn't making sense to me. All county communications, this is Stacey. Hi Stacey, my name's Nicole and I'm calling because I'm concerned about a friend of mine. I dropped her off at her house at 2 in the morning last night because we were out of town together and we were on the way back from the airport. And she's pregnant, and I haven't been able to get a hold of her this morning. And I've gone to her house, and her car is there and stuff like that,

but she won't answer the door. She won't answer phone calls. She won't answer text messages. And I'm just really, really concerned. And she had a doctor's appointment this morning, and she didn't go to it. And I'm just, I don't know what to do. I called him and talked to him,

and he said that she went on a play date with her and her two daughters. But, like, if she went on a play date, they're both in custody, so why would she not take her car? I mean, to Stephen Lampley, detective, author of Outside Your Door. You can find him at StephenLampley.com. Steve Lampley, why is the friend having to call 911?

Why not the husband? Well, he didn't want to be discovered. You know, as far as why inside his mind, I really don't have an answer to that. Maybe he didn't want to be on the recording. It could be any number of reasons why perhaps he didn't want to be the one to call. I think very clearly to Joseph Scott Morgan, of course, I agree with Stephen Lampley on that. But Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator and author of Blood Beneath My Feet, because the more time that passes, the less likely the case will be solved,

the more likely the bodies will decompose, the evidence will go stale, the trail will go cold. That's why he didn't want to report her missing. He didn't want her ever reported missing, and then the friend reports her. Yeah, you're absolutely right in that sense. And Nancy, going back to the bodies of these little girls, he knew he worked in the petroleum industry. He knew what was contained in those storage drums that are out there in that isolated area. And just so that our listeners, your listeners understand, this is raw petroleum. This contains things like toluene. As was mentioned earlier by Alexis, the bodies had already begun to deglobe.

This shouldn't have happened in this short period of time. But he knew because of the contents and chemical makeup of that stuff that was in that drum, it would cause the bodies to begin to rapidly break apart. It's caustic. Actually, toluene is something that we use as a cleaning solvent. So it's nasty stuff that he's involved in. And this is all part and parcel of the bigger picture. He wants to put as much distance between him and this horrible crime he's committed as he possibly can, because in his mind, he's thinking, I'm going to get away with this. I'm going to get

away with this. But it seems like the universe had other, you know, answers. To Alexis Torres, ChuckRaderOnline.com investigative reporter who's been on the case from the very beginning. Chris Watts tells his author, Sherilyn Cato, that his daughter, his murdered daughter, the little girl he murdered, quote, visited him and danced for him in his prison cell and that he had a phone conversation with his dead wife. He is telling these stories. He said he had a dream that his little girl was dancing next to his bed in his cell and she was dancing all around the chair. And then when he woke up, the papers that were on his chair started moving and he knew that that was her. And he said he was so glad that she came to visit him and that he hoped that she would come and visit again. But you know what he

has said to this lady? He says, you know, I am not mentally ill in any way, shape or form. And so I'm not even going to get tested to be, to see if I'm mentally ill. And his own mother has spoken to this author and she said, she doesn't believe that he is mentally ill either. And she doesn't think that he should be tested. He's had no testing behind prison walls at all, but instead he's having his little daughter visit. And yes, and he did say that, that Shanann called him on the phone. Again, these are dreams that he then feels are coming to life when he's awake. And so it's just all this crazy talk. He's trying to say all these nice things. And he has pictures of the girls up in his cell and he misses them and he loves them, which he certainly didn't do when he murdered them in cold blood in their bed. And he actually said he had to smother them twice

because they woke back up. Absolutely horrifying detail that I don't believe. He also says to Dr. Robbie Ludwig joining us, author of Till Death Do Us Part, Love, Marriage, and the Mind of a Killer Spouse on Amazon. He also says that, quote, God gave him three chances to pull away from Nikki and not murder her, but he, Watts, did not listen to the voices. You know, I think Chris Watts just loves hearing himself talk. Any opportunity to say something provocative, anything provocative, just to be heard and to be the center of attention is what's driving him right now. He is an attention whore more than anything

else. And so he knows that he can say almost anything and he can get a lot of attention. And it's really good attention and people are writing about him. And maybe one day there'll be a movie about him and maybe some some good-looking actor will play him. I think this all has to do with his grandiosity more than wanting to reveal what the truth is. You know, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, according to this author, Sherilyn Cato, who has spent hours and hours and hours talking to Chris Watts behind bars. She says that he described how he smothered his girls with the pillows off their beds. And I don't know if you've ever seen this, but both John David and Lucy's beds are covered with stuffies and pillows and all sorts of allergens, I'm sure. But only to have them wake up. He then drove them with their dead mom's body in the car

to the oil field where he worked. He says, I dumped Shanann on the ground. I wonder if that's when she had coffin birth and actually gave birth to the baby Nico. Then I walked back to the truck, and with the blanket Celeste was holding, I put it over her head and smothered her. He described squeezing Celeste's body through an eight-inch hatch in one of the oil tankers.

And quote, I couldn't believe how easily it was just to let her drop through the hole and let her go. I heard the splash as she hit the oil. You know what this means to me, Wendy Patrick? Not only is he going to burn in hell, but if he ever hoped to get a redo on his guilty pleas, there are reports that he now wants to get rid of the guilty pleas and go to trial. It ain't going to happen. Because an appellate court, where this is going to trial, it ain't going to happen because an appellate court where this is going to

go, they're going to take it up if he tries to get a trial. An appeal is a guilty plea under God only knows what grounds. But the appellate court's going to read all this. This is damning. He is not going to get a trial. Yeah, you know, a couple great points made by your last guest talking about grandiosity and the defendant wanting to hear himself talk. But wanting to hear himself talk paired with the grandiosity has created a record that an appellate court is going to just absolutely crucify him with, is what you would imagine would happen were there ever any legitimate, air quotes, grounds for appeal in a case like this. You know, as I'm listening to the facts, I'm listening to and having this conversation, I'm thinking at least a jury was spared having to hear these facts and go home to their own families, just forever listening to the gruesome details. There's not a single detail that was shared by the defendant that is in any way

a mitigant. And that's important because that's what you would need, one would think, when you go through the appellate process and deciding, are there any valid grounds for appeal? All of these facts are being recited almost callously, matter-of-factly, without the level of remorse you would expect if, in fact, he had given his life to Christ, as this writer apparently has been trying to facilitate. To Alexis Tereschuk, RadarOnline.com, what is his life like behind prison walls?

Well, he's in a maximum security prison in Wisconsin. He actually got moved out of Colorado because he is so well-known. And he has no interaction with other inmates. He's in his cell. It's basically like solitary confinement. He's in a cell 20 hours a day, but he has access to the phone. He writes constant letters. And then when he has visitors now, he's allowed to spend time with them on the same side of the glass. He's able to touch them. He's allowed to spend time with them on the same side of the glass. He's able to touch them. He's able to have them bring him presents, as you said, outside food. And so he's really leading a fairly... Well, I mean, how the heck did he get a cheeseburger and potato chips?

That's what they can bring it in here, which I guess they have to go through it with a fine tooth comb because, you know, you could hide anything in a cheeseburger and but this is what everybody is doing for him and he has really he must just be such a charmer in real life i can't see that through the videos of him he looks to me like somebody that killed his wife and two daughters but people these women that are all coming from all over the country to visit him and write him and talk to him have really fallen under his spell. He's really charmed them. We wait as justice unfolds, as Chris Watts cooperates with a tell-all memoir about himself, and as he battles to get a new trial. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.