Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KILLER-GRANNY-SUSPECT BLOODY AMBUSH 2 KANSAS MOMS; TASERS, BURNERS, BULLDOZER

Episode Date: April 22, 2024

A police affidavit says Tifany Adams allegedly gave statements indicating she was responsible for the deaths of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelley.  Investigators now say they believe Butler and Jillian Kelley were lured to the location, arriving around  9:40 a.m. Besides the pools of blood, officers found Butler’s glasses on the ground near a broken hammer.  Police say they believe the women were forced into another vehicle. Much information has been released in the probable cause affidavit, but not the women's cause of death. The bodies were found in a cattle pasture, leased by Tad Bert Cullum, the boyfriend of grandmother Tifany Adams.  The location was narrowed down by cellphone data from three burner phones purchased by Adams. The phones first pinged at the location of Butler's abandoned car, the data then led police to the pasture property. Obvious signs of digging were discovered. A hole had been dug and filled back in. Inside the hole were the bodies of the missing women. The motive, according to investigators, is custody of Butler’s two children: a custody battle has gone on for more than five years. Father Wrangler Rickman, Tifany Adam’s son, had custody of the children, but Rickman was confirmed to be in a rehabilitation facility in Oklahoma City.   Veronica Butler’s custody arrangement allowed her supervised visitation with her children every Saturday. And reportedly, according to Butler’s attorney, she was likely to be granted unsupervised visitation during an upcoming hearing. The affidavit states that  “Adams vehemently opposed this and went to great lengths to plan and purchase items used in Butler and Kelley’s murders,” It continues... “Adams, Cullum, Cole and Cora were willing to kidnap and murder two victims to limit visitation for Butler.” Court documents allege that Adams and the other suspects tried to killer Butler once before in February.  Adams, her boyfriend, and the other couple drove to Butler’s home near Hugoton, Kansas, intending to kill her. A witness told investigators that the planned was to throw an anvil through Butler’s windshield while she was driving. They reasoned that it would look like an accident, but Butler did not leave her home. As state investigators pulled information from Adams’ phone, it showed web searches for “taser pain level, gun shops, prepaid cellular phones, and how to get someone out of their house."  That’s also according to the probable cause documents.  Adams reportedly purchased five stun guns before the women’s disappearances, according to the documents. She bought three prepaid, unregistered burner phones from a Walmart near her.  All the prepaid burners stopped transmitting the mornings the women went missing. Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Kelly Hyman- Trial & Civil Attorney, TV Legal Analyst, Podcast Host: "Once Upon a Crime In Hollywood", Twitter: @kellyhyman1, TikTok: @kelly.hyman, Instagram: @Kelly_Hyman1  Sheryl McCollum  – Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of Podcast: “Zone 7;” X: @149Zone7 Irv Brandt – Senior Inspector, US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch; Chief Inspector, DOJ Office of International Affairs, US Embassy Kingston, Jamaica; Author: “SOLO SHOT: CURSE OF THE BLUE STONE” – AVAILABLE ON AMAZON IN JANUARY; ALSO “FLYING SOLO: Top of the World;” Twitter: @JackSoloAuthor Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School Lauren Conlin – Investigative Journalist, Host of The Outlier Podcast, and also Host of “Corruption: What Happened to Grant Solomon; X- @Conlin_Lauren/ Instagram- @LaurenEmilyConlin/YouTube- @LaurenConlin4 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight. Inside the bloody ambush of two Kansas moms as chilling new details reveal how an evil mother-in-law lures the two moms to their deaths using damning internet searches, burner phones, stun guns, and a bulldozer. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories, and I want to thank you for being with us. Fifteen days after Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly are reported missing, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation announces the recovery of two bodies. The identity of the remains has not been confirmed as of yet, but we do know the remains have been sent to the Oklahoma Medical Examiner's Office for identification, as well as the cause and manner of death. All that, all that, burner phones, tasers, stun guns, bullets, weapons, a bulldozer. Damning Internet searches.

Why? Granny plots to kill her own daughter-in-law so she could have custody of the grandchildren. Really? Yes. That's what official documents are revealing tonight inside the investigation. But first, how did it all unfold? Listen. The planned meeting place for Veronica Butler to pick up her children was a closed gas station near the intersection of Oklahoma State Highway 95 and Road L. The area is flat and desolate. There are no trees or homes nearby, as well as no traffic cameras. This is where Melissa and Joey Padilla, relatives of Veronica Butler, found her

car, after the mom didn't arrive at a birthday party for one of her children. The car was abandoned, and there were pools of blood nearby, so they called police. Investigators now say they believe Butler and Jillian Kelly were lured to the location, arriving around 9.40 a.m. Besides the pools of blood, officers found Butler's glasses on the ground near a broken hammer. Kelly's purse was also found. Inside was a gun magazine, but no weapon. Police say the women were forced into another vehicle. The women's phones stopped sending signals at 9.42 a.m. and have not been recovered. Only that official court documents seemingly reveal

that this was not their first attempt on the young mom. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning, stunning and chilling details emerging first, straight out to Lauren Conlon, investigative journalist, host of The Outlier podcast. Lauren, thank you for being with us. You've been on the case from the very beginning. I can't believe what I am seeing in this affidavit. A granny, a killer granny suspect uses a bulldozer, guns. Lauren, what's happening?

This is so tragic. It came out in these affidavits that this was not the first attempt to take Veronica Butler's life. They were planning to do something in February where an anvil would go through her windshield, as this was very common in the area. They would fall off construction trucks, and they believed. Okay, please tell me you aren't somehow a victim of Stockholm Syndrome because anvils don't just fall out of the air into people's cars. I don't care where it is. I mean, hold on right there. Cheryl McCollum is joining me, founder, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, forensics expert. As a matter of fact, she's joining me right now from her squad car. Cheryl, host of a hit new podcast, Zone 7. I know maybe in crazy granny's world, an anvil falling from the sky or off a truck into the young mom's car sounds reasonable.

It's not, Cheryl. It's not reasonable. It's not, Cheryl. It's not reasonable. It is not reasonable. You're talking about something that is so heavy. There's no way it's going to fall off a truck. And if it does, it's simply going to land three feet onto the pavement, not up five to six feet through her windshield. So again, when you're talking about plotting and planning a murder

and your baseline is Wile E. Coyote, you've got problems from the get-go. This was asinine at best. Can I ask you something, Cheryl McCollum? I know you're comparing them and their plan to a Wile E. Coyote plot, but these two women are dead, six children between them. And I don't care what anybody says, including a shrink that will tell me how wrong I am. There is nothing that can replace your mother. Nothing.

Amen. And it may be a far-fetched plan. It may be. But these ladies are dead. Not just the young mom who is her right there, just going to throw a birthday party for her children. That's Veronica Butler, just 27 years old. But then you've got the other lady, the church secretary, preacher wife. She's dead, too. Jillian Kelly in her 30s, the prime of her life. She was just doing a ride along to facilitate the visitation and the pickup of mom's babies. Six children without a mom.

So I don't care how zany their plot is. There were pools of blood left around this young mom's car because in my mind of killer granny, may she rot in hell. And let me point out as Kelly Hyman will tell me pretty quickly, they're innocent until proven guilty. And you can all quit telling me that on Twitter. I know that. I know they're not guilty yet, but I guarantee you they will be because of a track a mile wide. Isn't that right, Lauren Conlon?

A mile wide. Tell me about the evidence we're learning out of this warrant right here. Okay, so this is crazy. So first and foremost, they got a search warrant on, I believe it was March 31st for Tiffany Adams' phone. So they searched on her phone and they find searches that read taser pain level, where to buy a gun, different gun shops in the area, and then where to get prepaid cell phones and then how to get someone out of their house now in the meantime her boyfriend stop you know what you're just like spouting all this damning information like it's a fire hydrant lauren conlon too much too fast okay i'm drinking from the fire hydrant here you said look up the pain level of a taser. That was the mother-in-law's, let's just say Google search. She searched the pain level of a taser.

She did. She searched pain level. I got to go now to an eminent guest joining me, Dr. Kendall Crowns. He is the chief medical examiner in Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth near Dallas. Lecturer, University of Texan Christian University Medical School. And he is joining us right now from his office at the medical examiners. Dr. Crowns, thank you for being with us. I had a good friend at CNN who actually tasered himself

and a good friend at Court TV that followed up on it to make sure it really hurt. God rest his soul, Michael Christian. So, Dr. Kendall Crowns, tell me how a taser works. And this is what was the plan. This is the plan to use on two unarmed moms. A taser. How does it work? And how badly does it hurt, Dr. Crowns?

So conductive electronic devices like taser work by injecting prongs into your skin and then using the skin's moisture to conduct electricity across it and then send a large amount of electricity into your body, basically shocking you. The shock itself causes a tremendous amount of pain, causes you to spasm and then collapse. See, that's why I have to work with you so much before I could put you on the stand. Conductive electronic device.

What are you talking about? Can you dumb me down for me, please? Just saying, regular people talk how a taser works and the amount of pain. What can we compare it to? Conductive electronic devices is what a taser is. Taser themselves prefer you call it a conductive electronic device because not all conductive electronic devices are tasers. It's like a Xerox machine is a copier, etc. So it is basically electricity being forced into your body, high amounts of electricity. It'd be like you putting a fork into a wall socket. You get the same kind of experience from that,

except the wall socket doesn't cause as much electricity to go through you as a taser does. As a general rule, a taser starts with a baseline of 50,000 volts of electricity. 50,000 volts of electricity. What does that mean, Dr. Kendall-Crowns? That's the high amount of electricity. It's higher than basically your standard current in your house. So it's a large amount of electricity being put into your body all at once. Just think about it. Think about it, Cheryl McCollum, this evil mother-in-law was prepared to use 50,000 volts of electricity

minimum on the victims in this case, two unarmed women. She didn't care if she caused that amount of pain. And Cheryl, think about it. Forget the taser. They were gunned down. I think they were shot dead. But let's talk even more basic in the beginning. You've got four people, and two women. It doesn't take a taser to control them. If you ambush two unsuspecting victims with four people,

you're going to be able to control them fairly easily. I believe that the stun gun was for torture. Wow. I hadn't even thought of that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me right now, Kelly Hyman, trial lawyer and now civil lawyer joining us out of Miami, also legal analyst and host of Once Upon a Crime in Hollywood. Kelly Hyman, I mean, this gang, which they call themselves God's Misfits, have left a trail a mile wide. The state's going to have a field day with this. This is a horrible story for these young kids to lose their mother. And we always,

when we look at things, is why do people do this? What was their motive behind this? What was their reasoning behind this? That's, you know, key. And allegedly they were in some big family dispute, bitter dispute that left these beautiful kids without a mother. Ultimately, Nancy, as you said, you are innocent until proven guilty. But there is allegedly a lot of evidence coming out that's going to make a strong case for the state. I need to bring up the innocent until proven guilty part. What more do we know, guys? Straight out to Lauren Conlon. Guns, bulldozers, tasers, stun guns. What more do we know, Lauren?

And all of this is to take out two innocent unarmed mothers? Yes, let me stop you. There have been no guns found, just stun guns. So this is actually really interesting. And I'm a bit confused. I came across, I think it was yesterday or the day before, it was on an outlet called the Oklahoman. And you have to pay for a lot of these articles.

I did not pay, but I did find a little snippet where the medical examiner said, I don't believe they were shot. And I'm going through all of these affidavits, the arrest affidavits, all the probable cause. And I don't see any guns. And as Dave Mack said, you know, Jillian Kelly had a pistol magazine in her purse, but there were no guns. So all we have here is burner phones and stun guns. And then we have the equipment that I was going to get to. So Tad Cullum, Tiffany's boyfriend, he rented some land about eight miles away from where their vehicle was initially found, Veronica and Jillian's. And he rented equipment like bulldozers and all these names that my son would know, skid steers.

He'd be much better than I am at this. And he ends up digging a hole in this property and then covering it with hay. And this area is the last place where the women's phones were actually pinged, this area. And the property owner, I believe his name is Jamie Beasley, he had no idea what was going on. So when authorities, you know, send all those trucks to get the women, to get the bodies, once they get the tip, he's crying. He's like, oh, my gosh, I had no idea. And just in complete and utter shock. So I think it's safe to say we really don't know the manner of death or how these women died.

Joining me, Cheryl McCollum, founder, director, Cold Case Research Institute and forensics expert. Cheryl, I can see all the digital fingerprint footprint adding up, placing the moms at this location. And coincidentally, the same location where the burner phones were turned off. But I want to talk about the mag, the magazine, the gun magazine found in one of the victim's purses. There's no indication that either of the victims had a gun. And when I say a magazine, I'm talking about a mag, not a clip. A mag feeds rounds into the gun chamber as it's being fired. So what do you make of a mag being found? Not verified. A lot of information. They're playing this close to the vest, which they should. But, you know, let's say you are going with somebody to beat, you know,

ex-family members that they've been fighting with for nine years. Maybe somebody gave her something to protect herself. We don't know if this was her potential part of a weapon or perpetrator. We don't know yet. And all we do know is there are pools of blood at the scene, a broken hammer. So was somebody shot? Was somebody hit in the head, blood force trauma? We don't know yet. Guys, we are learning that a minor, we believe it to be a teen girl, has turned informant.

Take a listen to this. The teenager told police that she had heard conversation among the adults that Adams' grandchildren were at risk when they were with Butler. She told investigators that Adams had provided burner phones so that personal devices were not needed to communicate. The girl said she had seen two of the phones charging on her mother's nightstand. The day before the murders, Adams' boyfriend, Column 43, had asked the owner of the property he rented if he could do some work there with his skid steer, a kind of bulldozer. According to the owner's conversation with police, Colum reportedly said he wanted to cut down a tree,

remove a stump, and bury some concrete. The teen said she heard that her mother and stepfather blocked the road, diverting the women to where the others were waiting. When asked why Kelly had to die, her mother reportedly said because Kelly supported Butler, she wasn't innocent. The child asked Cora Twombly if they had put the bodies in a well. She was told something like that. Wow. It's always difficult to put a child on the stand during a jury trial, but sometimes you have to. This teen girl revealing so much of what was going on in the home before the murders in the home of the suspects. Straight back out to Lauren Collin joining us, investigative journalist and host of The Outlier. So a skid steer is a kind of bulldozer. Where were the two moms' bodies found?

So they were found by a dam in that rented area of the property. So I'm assuming that they were somewhat covered by this hay and the fresh dirt. I believe they called it the soil and they were easy to find. I also I want to point something out as well, Nancy. Per the witness, Cora told her or her daughter, whoever the witness was, that things didn't go according to plan. This mission did not go according to plan this mission did not go according to plan so i don't know exactly what that means but i have a hunch it has something to do with a possible fifth suspect that hasn't been arrested but that's just my take joining

right now former u.s marshal service international investigations, author of Flying Solo on Amazon. Irv Brandt joining us. Irv Brandt, did you hear what Lauren Conlon just said? And I read it in the official court docs that this gang, God's Misfits, said they were on a mission. They call murdering these two young moms a mission. What a mission from hell. That's exactly what it was, Nancy.

These people are obviously deranged. They're not criminal masterminds. They had a previous murder plan that didn't come, didn't pan out. Then they go into this elaborate plan using stun guns and a bulldozer, but they leave a trail a mile wide for police investigators to follow. Nancy, I've never seen anything like this. They might as well have written out a confession and signed it and sent it to the police. Earlier, I think we heard Cheryl McCollum compare it to Wile E. Coyote, their plot. And I admonished her because we've got two dead moms. But actually, it does sound like something out of the Apple Dumpling Gang,

except nobody ever died in those movies, where they've been watching way too many movies with the burner phones and the rendezvous point and the bull i mean how much more obvious can it be or brandt than to rent a bulldozer or to bring over your bulldozer nancy i mean i i can't even give you a reasonable explanation for their line of thinking. This is just not, it's like Cheryl Mack said, it's something out of a cartoon trying to drop an acne anvil on their head. I don't know where these people came up with their ideas when they started researching it online that amounts to someone saying well I want to poison someone then doing it researching it on their computer then

ordering poison off of Amazon to carry out the murder. I can't give you an explanation Nancy, I'm sorry. The teen told police that she was told that her mother and stepfather would be gone that Saturday when the teen woke up. She was told they were going to be on a mission. And as she was told, the Twomblies were not home when she woke up around 10 a.m. She says the couple came back around noon in their pickup and a flatbed pickup owned by a relative. The teen says she was told to clean the interior of the Chevrolet pickup. When she asked what had happened, she was told things had not gone as planned, but that they would not have to worry about Butler again. At the same time that the Twomblies arrived home, Tiffany Adams went

to pick up her grandchildren at the home of the other couple who hosted God's Misfits meetings, the affidavit said. Joining me in All-Star panel, Cheryl McCollum, did you hear that? They use their own vehicle. They use their own computer. They used their own cell phones to send text messages. They spoke in front of witnesses. Again, for four people to plot and plan, they made such severe mistakes. I agree with her. They might as well have just done a confession from the get-go because it was obvious who did it. You and I talked today about, you know, the victims left a town of 1,200 people to go to a town of 281 people. Your suspect pool was people right off the bat. that has emerged this teen girl was told the mother her I guess boyfriend and two others who

claimed to be quote God's misfits were on a quote mission they were I'm reading from the affidavit they were going to be on a mission she woke up around 10 a.m. They all came back around noon, the defendants, in a pickup and a flatbed owned by a relative. And she, the teen girl, was told to clean the interior of the Chevrolet pickup. What does that mean to me? That means that at least one of these mothers was transported to a burial site in the Chevy pickup. When the girl asked what happened, she was told things had, quote, not gone as planned, but they would never have to worry about Butler, that being 27-year-old mom Veronica Butler, again. At the same time, Tiffany Adams goes to pick up the grandchildren elsewhere. Another

couple's home who hosted God's Misfits meetings. What does that say to me? That tells me out to Kelly Hyman, a veteran trial lawyer, that there are other people, the ones that were babysitting the children during all of this, that knew about the plan, and there are going people, the ones that were babysitting the children during all of this, that knew about the plan, and they're going to be state's witnesses along with this teen girl, as if I don't have enough information and enough evidence anyway. Now, these babysitters, the other God's misfits, they're going to be witnesses. Or they could always be charged for aiding and abetting. And I don't think they want to go to the pen for that.

I think, Nancy, we are just at the tip of the iceberg on this. And you bring up a really good point. Yes. So if people overheard this, they could potentially be the state's witness. And what that means is they will testify in the trial of saying what they've heard or potentially if they could potentially be charged with aiding and abetting and assisting in this in fact if they don't if they help assist with this murder and stuff like that so it'll be interesting to see what transpires in the coming

next days and and who turns as a state witness or potentially are there going to be additional charges for people who overheard stuff and were potentially involved in this as well. Back to Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us out of Tarrant County, Fort Worth from the medical examiner's office. Dr. Crowns, again, thank you for being with us. We're trying to determine whether the manner of death was shooting or stabbing. I know the bodies had been buried haphazardly. Would you be able to tell and how the manner and cause of death? Certainly, you'd be able to determine the cause of death based on the injury patterns. Even though they had been buried, it won't take away the damage to the body,

especially to the skeletal system. And then the manner of death would be fairly easy. The fact that they've been buried out in the middle of nowhere, they've obviously been killed, so it's going to be a homicide. So determining between gunshot wounds, stabbings, or beatings, it would just be looking at the injury patterns on the body based on the information you already had, pools of blood, broken hammer. The fact that they were talking about using an anvil in the first place makes me feel like they've probably beaten these individuals to death using a hammer after they stunned them. Okay.

You know, Dr. Kimmel-Crowns, I understand what you're saying. Now, you believe there's a very strong potential of the two victims being beaten dead with a hammer. And why do you say that? Because there is a broken hammer at the scene. There's pools of blood. And they had been talking about doing blunt force trauma to the individuals in the first place using an anvil. So it doesn't sound like they had planned to use guns all along that they kind of planned to use blunt force trauma. So it makes me think that they used the stun guns to kind of subdue them and then just beat them to death with a hammer. You know, Dr. Kendall Crowns,

I was thinking gun because of the amount of blood pools of blood there and I attributed the hammer handle to breaking the windshield because a witness stated she had driven by around 10 a.m. the moms left for their journey a 45 minute drive around 9 a.m. and at 10 a.m. a female witness drives by and sees their vehicle and sees a window on the driver's side busted out. Now I attributed the discovery of the hammer handle to breaking out the window, but your theory makes a lot more sense to me. Plus, I'm not hearing about any guns being registered to the defendants, although I find that really hard to believe. But that said, what about it, Cheryl McCollum? To why the glasses would be on the ground, large pools of blood.

Nobody in the vicinity heard a gunshot. It also would, you know, to me, goes back to my theory, they were tortured. This was anger. She didn't look up stun gun. She looked up the pain level. This was very personal. They had been fighting for almost a decade over those children, and they were attacked. I'm going to say it again.

This didn't take four people. This was a deliberate gang ambush. Killer granny suspects bloody ambush on two unarmed Kansas moms on their way to a children's birthday party. And they apparently used tasers, burner phones, even a bulldozer to affect their plan. Joining me in all-star panel, you were just hearing Cheryl McCollum, but now to Lauren Conlon, investigative journalist, host of the Outlier podcast. I want to hear what you have to say about the use of a hammer as the murder weapon, but also I found something buried in the affidavit. And I found this really interesting.

I want everybody on the panel to jump in. We find out that three prepaid cellular phones were purchased from Walmart in Oklahoma back on Feb 13. That's how long they've been planning this, since Feb 13. This is what I found really interesting. All three of the burner phones were powered on and accessed cellular network for the first time

at Colum's residence. So they can, the LE, law enforcement can identify the first time these idiots turned on the burner phone is basically inside their own home. Ding dong, they can figure out that they are leaving a digital trail. They're turning on the cellular phones that were used to orchestrate this double murder. They turn it on for the first time in or near their own home. I mean, they need to go back and watch Ocean's Eleven all over again. Lauren Collin, you were jumping in.

What were you saying? Well, I can provide some context to this as well because while they appear to be extremely dumb criminals obviously i think there's an element to this right the the farm element i don't think that it's out of the ordinary that he would rent farm equipment or dig holes xyz but using your own cell phones and turning these cell phones, these burner phones on at your own house, this goes to the fact that Tiffany Adams is actually very connected in that town. She runs and is responsible for the Cimarron County GOP. She's their chair. She was a former school board chair. She knows the sheriff's office.

I mean, I think there was a quote where she had said, you know, I know the path the judge takes to work. She knows everybody. And I believe that she thinks that she is untouchable and people don't necessarily want to talk. The one judge that did speak, he was forced to resign the next day. So it's, it's really interesting. And I think that this woman in particular, Tiffany Adams, she holds a type of power that we are just going to be learning about. Well, you know what that calls for? A change of venue. That won't be hard. You know, I'm still looking very carefully at this amity, but I want everybody to weigh in on this. The whole dug about 200 yards below a dam filled back in and covered with hay.

I mean, you could probably see that with a drive over from a helicopter for Pete's sake. Did they not think cops were going to find that? I mean, Irv Brandt, I've seen many, many homicides. I've investigated many, tried many, covered many. But this is a plethora, a Pandora's box of evidence. Nancy, that's exactly right. Like you, I've been doing this all my adult life. And I've never seen a case probably easier to solve, easier to prove.

When we take it to you as the prosecuting attorney, you'd look at us and say, you got to be kidding me. You know, I can't believe this. Where's did they videotape themselves committing the crime? Did they post it on social media? They did just about everything else imaginable, you know, to say they did it. The confessions have got to be forthcoming, I would imagine, to the police. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me, high-profile lawyer, very familiar with the case.

Kelly, I want you to take a listen to this. The motive, according to investigators, is custody of Butler's two children. A custody battle has gone on for more than five years. Father Wrangler Rickman, Tiffany Adams' son, was awarded custody of the children, but Rickman was confirmed to be in a rehabilitation facility in Oklahoma City at the time of the murders. Veronica Butler's custody arrangement allowed her supervised visitation with her children every Saturday, and reportedly, according to Butler's custody arrangement allowed her supervised visitation with her children every Saturday. And reportedly, according to Butler's attorney, she was likely to be granted unsupervised visitation during an upcoming hearing. The affidavit states that Adams vehemently opposed this and went to great lengths to plan and purchase items used in Butler and Kelly's murders. It continues, Adam, Cullum, Cole, and Cora were willing to kidnap

and murder two victims to limit visitation for Butler. And isn't it true, guys, we were talking about Adams, we're talking about Tiffany Michelle Adams, age 54, who is the alleged evil mother-in-law, her, who plotted this, who seems to think that she's the political boss of the county. I got news for her. Political boss or no. She's going down because of her own actions.

And it's seemingly, straight back out to Lauren Conlon or anybody, Cheryl McCollum, you may know the answer to this. It seems as if earlier there were plans to take out a judge. Another relative was concerned about the custody issue and was told that no need for concern. They would not have to worry about the custody battle much longer because, and I'm quoting from the affidavit, Adams, that's the grandma, the mother-in-law, quote, had it under control that she knew the path the judge walked to work and would take out Veronica at the drop-off. Take out Veronica at the drop-off. What about that? Tell it on herself.

She has told on herself, I think, for the last nine years. I think there's probably been threats all over creation. And let me tell you the most striking thing for me. This woman, the ex-mother-in-law, cannot stand Veronica. She has made that clear. Veronica's no good for the children. They're not safe with her. She probably doesn't cook and clean. She doesn made that clear. Veronica's no good for the children. They're not safe with her. She probably doesn't cook and clean. She doesn't take care of them. They're only, you know,

okay when they're in her custody. When Veronica did not meet, pick those children up, especially on the daughter's birthday. Remember, it was her birthday. She would have been the first person. Tiffany would have been the first person calling the court saying she's in contempt. I told y'all she was no good. I've got these children sitting here crying because their mama didn't show up. Is this baby's birthday? When she didn't do that, she didn't make that call pitching a fit. That told me right there she's involved. Is nobody worried about discussion of killing a judge pops up in the affidavit? Because I'm looking right at it that we don't have to worry about custody anymore because Adams, that would be the mother-in-law, Tiffany Adams, quote, knew the path the judge walked to work.

I mean, Cheryl McCollum, am I the only one seeing that? Were they going to kill a judge, too? It is telling you the lengths that she was going to go to, Nancy. Nothing was going to stop her from keeping those children away from Veronica. She was going to have every possible avenue stopped so that she could have these children. Nancy, she's supposedly so connected to the courts and to the police, but she has refused to go by any of the court's order. They've basically made her bulletproof.

For years, she has stopped the mama from seeing them. For years, she has refused to do what the court tells her to do. And when it looked to her that she could no longer control the court or the victim, she killed her. That's how it looks, plain and simple. There is the death penalty in Oklahoma. Kelly Hyman, there have to be special aggravating circumstances in order for a prosecutor to seek a death penalty. And those have to be clearly enunciated far prior to trial in writing. There has to be an announcement the state is going to seek the death penalty. And there is a very limited number of aggravating circumstances that will suffice. However, more than one body is one of those aggravating circumstances.

Ultimately, that will be up to the state to make a determination on whether they believe that they can bring it based on the facts and evidence of the case. But there is a lot of evidence that is coming out. And Nancy, to your point about the alleged about the judge, it is very, very disconcerting because judges are the ones that preside over the case and they're the ones that make determinations. And so the fact that there is allegations of harming a judge,

which is very disconcerting and very upsetting. But ultimately, no one, no matter who you are, is above the law and people need to be held accountable. And ultimately, that will be up to the jury of whether they're innocent or guilty in this case. To Irv Brandt, joining us, former U.S. Marshal Service and author Irv, to think all of this was over, what, every other weekend or Wednesday to Saturday versus Thursday to Saturday visitations. And you know, the so-called evil mother-in-law, evil granny killer suspect, she's the mother of the bio dad. So she would have access to the grandchildren every time he had visitation or, you know,

shared custody. So if he got the children half the time, she would have access to the children half of their lives. And in a divorce, you know, for a lot of people, that's pretty good visitation. And all of this over what? A few days? A month? Nancy, I don't think the time had anything to do with it.

I think to this woman, this was obviously about control. And she wanted complete control of who was going to see those children and when they were going to see those children and what the circumstances were going to be. And she wasn't even going to allow a judge to dictate to her how to take care of these children because she said it. She'll take that judge out. She knows his path to the courthouse. So no, Nancy, it makes no sense other than the fact that the woman wanted complete control over every action concerning those children. To Dr. Kendall Crowns, Dr. Kendall Crowns, your theory that a hammer was used to bludgeon the women dead, most likely about the face and the head. The pain they would have endured preceding their death would have been unbearable.

Correct. I mean, if she's being tased or shocked with the electronic devices or electric devices than being beaten with a hammer. A hammer isn't really efficient to kill someone because it's hard to break the skull with a hammer. So they would have to continually strike them multiple times, eventually fracturing the head and then getting into the brain cavity. The other thing you have to consider is the fact that they could have been

hit with the hammer, knocked unconscious, and then placed into the grave and then covered with the dirt, still being alive but unconscious, so then dying by being buried alive as well. So there's a couple of ways of going out in this case. Would a medical examination of their lungs determine if they were buried alive, their lungs, their nasal passages in their mouths? Their mouths and their nose could have inhaling the dirt. It wouldn't probably get as deep as the lungs that could, but you would see that the fact that they were inhaling or gulping at the dirt after they were buried. So that is something that can be found at autopsy. Two unarmed, innocent mothers dead. We wait as justice unfolds, and now we stop to remember American hero, Agent Eliezer Ramos-Velez, just 35, shot in the line of duty, leaving behind his beloved fiancée and infant son, Malcolm. American hero,

Agent Eliezer Ramos-Velez. I want to thank all of our guests for being with us tonight, but especially to you for being with us tonight and every night. Nancy Grace signing off. Good night, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.