Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Killer Under Their Noses? Shock as Local Pharmatech Charged in Delphi Double Murders

Episode Date: November 3, 2022

Delphi residents tell reporters that they are still in shock after learning that local pharmacy tech Richard Allen has been charged in the 2017 murder of teens Liberty German and Abigail Williams. Photos of Allen in a local bar with the police sketch of the murder suspect posted on the wall behind him have surfaced. We have also learned that while at work, Allen developed photos of the girls, to be used at their funeral, for the families at no charge.  Police say Allen came forward as a witness in the early days of the investigation, but nothing at that time linked him to the crime.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: David Yoder - Richard Allen's former neighbor   Fran Longwell - Former Deputy State’s Attorney (Calvert County, MD), Former Assistant State’s Attorney (Prince George’s County, MD) specializing in child abuse, sex offenses and homicides Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist; Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark" Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA.; @ColdCaseTips  Dr. Todd M. Barr - Board-Certified Anatomic/Clinical/Forensic Pathologist (Ohio), Featured in "Thin Places: Essays From In Between" by Jordan Kisner; Twitter: @ToddBarrME Max Lewis - Reporter, FOX59 (Indianapolis); Twitter/Instagram: @MaxLewisTV, Facebook.com/MaxLewisTV  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Legal eagles across the world thought it would never happen. But in the last days, finally, arrest in the case of the Delphi double murders of Abby and Libby, two precious girls, now angels. But who would have predicted that all the while the killer was right under everybody's nose, literally in the center of town? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to our friends at WTHR. We know Richard Allen worked as a licensed pharmacy tech at this CVS here in Delphi,

but many continue to ask and wonder how a man now charged with two counts of murder managed to stay under the radar. In a town of about 3,000 people, those who live in Delphi are still trying to cope with news that Richard Allen is the man police say murdered Abby Williams and Libby German. I mean, it's the day after Halloween, but it's a little eerie. And tense. In downtown Delphi on the square, businesses like the Office Tavern put up a new sign on their door reading, no media allowed. They weren't the only ones. Country Hare also had a sign. Off camera, one business owner told 13 News the community is still in shock. Even the girls' families grappling with the reality that their girl's a murderer, brutal murderer. Remember,

according to one released affidavit, there were copious amounts of blood at the scene, many speculating. These two little girls, Libby and Abby, had their throats slit. We don't know that yet, but that is the conjecture of experts. They are grappling with the reality that the killer was right under their nose. Take a listen to Fox 59. They're also facing a harsh reality that Richard Allen was living amongst them the whole time. I don't know the gentleman personally at all. So I've probably seen him, but it's a small county. But definitely I don't know him.

One of the most chilling revelations was that Becky said Allen, who worked at a local CVS, had printed off pictures for the girls' funeral, leaving the family to wonder, how did nobody know? When the family says we didn't know him, that's like you don't know your mailman. You don't know the guy at McDonald's that gives you a large coffee with two creams in it every morning. You don't know the neighbor three doors down, but you do. Again, thank you for being with us as we are struggling with the reality that a double killer, according to police, was right there saying, good morning. How can I help you? Every single day to practically everybody in town. To Cheryl McCollum joining me, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl, isn't the CVS right in the middle of town? It's right in the middle of town.

If you take the CVS and make it the center of a wheel with spokes, you get to the high school, you get to the middle school, you get to the bridge. Everywhere is centered from downtown well you know i know our pharmacist because the twins were so sick when they were little we were in there all the time i know them their families through pictures everybody that works there you get to know your pharmacist and this local pharmacy tech seemingly dealt with everybody in town. Joining me right now, Max Lewis with Fox 59. You can find him on Insta at Max Lewis TV. Max, thank you for being with us.

I guess the town is stunned right now because this has been going on over five years and every day. I mean, for Pete's sake. In one picture, he's at a bar. What was it? J&H, C&S, Bar and Grill. He's sitting right there living it up. And right behind him on the wall is his composite. Yeah.

I mean, people were just, when we heard about it, we saw his picture. We saw who he was. People were stunned. Five and a half years they've been investigating this and this guy has been living amongst them the whole time he's been filling their prescriptions or printing off photos for him at at cbs and nobody saw anything i think that's sort of what the family was saying there and what a whole lot of people have told me is really nobody saw this guy nobody looked at the

sketch and thought maybe it was him or or anything like that I mean it was just sort of really shocking we don't know how police got to him at this point because all those documents are sealed but uh yeah stunning yeah I've got more on that Max Lewis and the search warrant that was executed on his home a few days before his arrest. I'm going to get into that. But right now, the shock factor. And I'll tell you what I think. And this is from having handled cases where the killer was right there in the community the whole time. Yeah, we all looked at the possibility it was a transient.

But Cheryl McCollum, you and I agreed on day one this was no transient, right? Day one. You and I said it and we never wavered from it we even said he would be within five miles and then once i got to delphi and we saw where the bridge was i mean that to me i was like he's even closer than i think and remember the guy the catfisher was keegan klein and they're going gosh i'm not no now i know their names by heart keegan klein was a perv uh pasty looking dude middle age i think he is anyway using a screenshot anthony shots of a justin bieber lookalike trying to lure young girls and he was

talked to them just a day or two before and maybe the day of but he lives like 30 60 miles away and you and I thought yeah that's tempting it's really tempting but the distance didn't fit to us because who would know to go to that dirt road to that particular trail to that trestle bridge and then down to a bottleneck take force the girls down to where they really couldn't get away and murder them and i think rape them first had to be a local it had to be a local with intimate knowledge because even where they crossed the creek that's where the creek was shallow other parts of it are waist deep this person knew hold on wait a minute i'm trying to drink in what you're saying parts of the creek shallow other waist deep, and that factored into it. It absolutely did. Why are you saying that?

Because, again, this person would have to know that. If you and I just were visiting that area, we wouldn't know where to cross that creek. And, again, waist high, chest high in some places if it's been raining, but he knew right where to cross where it was less than ankle deep. And Max Lewis, Fox 59, joining us. He's been all over this. Max Lewis, the thing is, the killer would know, and you've been to that trestle bridge a million times, the killer would have to know that there were other people that were in that, I'm going to call it a park, but it's more like a hiking area, and where he killed them, other people would not be able to see what was going on, even though they could be walking around in the hiking area. Yeah. And,

you know, yeah, this is a very well-traveled area. So, I mean, it's hard to believe that nobody would have seen them. That may be where the sort of, you remember that, that chilling audio recording, the down the hill, you know, we don't necessarily know, you know, if he is the bridge guy per se, you know, that's still, they're holding everything close to the best at this point. Okay, wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop the train. Max Lewis, let's follow that theory to its logical conclusion, and that would be that there were two killers, that one guy lured them down, the so-called bridge guy, and then Richard Allen raped and murdered them.

I find that hard to believe. My mind is still open, but is that what you're suggesting? Well, that seems to be somewhat of the indication that we are getting at this point. From who? Reddit? No, no. We're getting that from the way they're handling this they steal those documents they say this investigation is ongoing what more do they need if they have

their guide they've made an arrest they found a probable cause affidavit what more do they need why are you shaking your head yes i believe jump jump the reason it's ongoing first of all jackie howard i do not want you on my jury ever. Forget it. You just fall for anything anybody says. Yeah, yeah. She's shaking her head yes to everything Max Lewis says. Cheryl McComb, straighten it out, woman.

There's a great possibility there are additional victims. So they are going to connect every dot they possibly can. This investigation does not end and arrest in a great world. This is where it starts. Yeah, you know, you really think, I'm not picking on you, Max Lewis. You're the messenger, okay?

But do you really think this guy went from zero to 120 MPH in one day? Because I don't. Even with a sports car, it takes a minute to heat up. So I'm not buying it. I think what Cheryl McCollum just said is right. I think law enforcement are looking for other young girl victims. Were they sex assaulted? Were they threatened? Did they feel threatened? And for people that may have helped him cover up this crime. Back to who is this guy? Take a listen now to this.

Before moving to Delphi, he lived in this home with his wife and daughter, according to neighbors. David Yoder lived across the street, but has known Allen since he was born and grew up with his dad. I mean, I would have never thought living across the road from him, that's where I would have sent my kids to, if there had been any trouble. But after hearing Allen was arrested and charged with killing Abby Williams and Libby German, he's now questioning if he really knew him. It's just hard to believe he's a heck of a nice guy, always has been. Heck of a nice guy, always has been. Well, you know what? They said that about Joseph D'Angelo, the Golden State Killer. In fact, he had even been a cop. I believe it was in Oxford, California.

They said the same thing about the dog catcher, which makes me suspicious at the get-go. Who wants to catch dogs and put them to death? Not me. BTK, buy, torture, kill. Dennis Rader, deacon at the church. Freak. Complete, total freak. After he would murder people in his community on his dog catching route, he would then redress them and put makeup on them and pose them. Let that sink in. Everybody thought he was a nice, upstanding guy, too.

And, of course, I'm just going to go out on a limb. Scott Peterson. And, yes, I know there is a cable TV entertainment program suggesting that Scott Peterson is innocent. He's not. He's guilty. He murdered Lacey and Connor. And you can throw all the hate at me you want to, but that is the truth. I was in the trial.

Were you? Bet you weren't. If you believe everything somebody is paid to create to convince you to get ratings, you're barking up the wrong tree. So I'm going to throw Scott Peterson in there too. Good looking, college degree, great job, beautiful home, beautiful wife. Yeah, he's a killer. crime stories with nancy grace with me right now david yoder you just heard him speaking to our friend Max Lewis, Fox 59, who's really, they have broken so many aspects of this case, Fox 59. David Yoder grew up with Richard Allen as a child and was his neighbor for years and years. And you just heard him say to Max,

if my children were in trouble, I'd tell them to run over there. That's how much he trusted Richard Allen. David Yoder, thank you for being with us. Hello. Okay, tell me, David Yoder, don't leave anything out. What do you recall growing up with Richard Allen? I grew up with a little girl named Joy Jones, Connie Joy Jones, lived across the street. They had four children. One was the same age of each of us. And it was wonderful. Still friends after all that time. She says the first time she met me, I came to her door unannounced or uninvited. They opened the door and I said, may I please have a cookie?

That's how that friendship started. Tell me about Richard Allen. allen well he was a good kid growing up i mean never in any trouble um they were a good family his dad is a friend of mine uh he uh they're just just good people all around good people they're uh very smart people his grandpa was a principal of my grade school and a teacher uh that there's just a good family all around good family and and it's a shock to think that rick could do something like this if he did it. If he didn't do it, I mean, he's still innocent until proven guilty. I don't know what kind of evidence they got on him. But it's just a shock, like I said.

I would have sent my kids over there to a safe house, over to him, if I had to, to go there if there was any problems. And I wasn't home or something. Well, I feel the same way about Connie Joy Jones. If somebody told me Connie Joy Jones, a.k.a. Joy Jones, committed a double murder, much less on children, I'd say no way. I'd go to court and go under oath and talk about what a great person she was and is and has been alone with my children. And I would have her be alone with them again. I know what you're saying.

What is his character? You keep saying a good guy. What do you mean by that? What? He never once shoplifted. He never sped. He never took a pack of gum from the store. Nothing. He always spoke.

He was real nice, cordial, never disrespected me. I mean, I'm older than he is, several years. I was better friends with his dad than him, but growing up. How much older are you than Richard Allen? I'm 68. And Allen is 50, right? Okay, 18 years. He 18 years so somewhere in there um when you say a good guy um how did he do in school did he play a sport not so much an athlete no uh

what did he do uh I don't know just went to school I wasn't with him in school his dad I was is that who you're talking about no I'm talking about richard allen i'm not as interested in his parents richard i was out of school when richard went to school i mean i was 18 years older than he was he's young enough to be my kid and never a bit of trouble when he was growing up that i knew of does he have brothers and sisters he's got one sister where does she live i don't know i lost track of her a long time ago. I mean, and I have Richard, too. He moved away from here. I just kind of lost track of him. Talking about Richard Allen, neighbors that actually grew up with him saw him grow up as a child, like David Yoder, are having a hard time taking in that he is now charged with double murder.

David Yoder, what did you think when you learned that cops have arrested Richard Allen for the murders of Abby and Libby? First thought, once you're in my mind, there's no way. No way. But then, you know, if it's true, then he deserves the penalty that goes along with it. I hope they catch whoever did it if it isn't him. If it is him, then he deserves everything he gets. David Yoder says he is absolutely shocked that a boy he knew his entire childhood, all the way through growing up and moving away as an adult is responsible for such a gruesome

sex attack, we believe, and double murder, we believe, by knife. I don't know. I'll have to ask the shrink Karen Stark about this, but the thought of putting a knife to a little girl's throat is just, it's repulsive. I don't even want to think about it. But a little digging does reveal a tiny blip. Take a listen to our friend Max at Fox 59. Allen has no criminal history,

but Carroll County dispatch records show he had one encounter with police in 2015. The sheriff said it was a domestic issue where Allen was supposedly drunk and his wife took him to a Lafayette hospital. No law enforcement action was taken, but deputies were sent to his Delphi home to, quote, keep the peace. Okay, Max Lewis, so far the cops haven't come to our home to keep the peace, and nobody's been carted off to the emergency room drunk as a skunk. So what do we know about what happened? They weren't providing a whole lot of clarification about that uh you know it sounds like there was you know as i said there there

was a domestic situation when i asked the sheriff who's the domestic situation between he wouldn't tell me so uh you know i am a little suspect of this but you know that was but it's also the only other thing i ever found of him. I mean, you saw I went to his hometown, looked through his criminal background. That's the only thing we found about him. And it did happen at 3 o'clock in the morning. So I'll leave that for you guys to decide what you want to think about that. And I certainly will.

I certainly will dissect that. Who is up causing a ruckus, drunk as skunk at 3 a.m that's not good uh to fran longwell former deputy state's attorney in calvert county former assistant state's attorney prince george specializing in homicides and other related crimes fran thank you for being with us what do you make of this prior arrest? The prior arrest, it shows, in my opinion, that he does have some type of violent streak in him. But I kind of agree with you, Nancy, that this didn't start from zero to what happened to these little girls. I'm just concerned that we're going to find other victims or we're going to find other other kids that have been abused by this guy. Yeah are you saying that cheryl mccollum what leads you to that speculation but by the way i agree

with you well i mean again broad daylight two victims with other people around a victim that clearly has a cell phone that is high risk you're talking about somebody on a bridge that's you know 80 feet high in the air and has boards missing. Everything he did was so risky. It tells me that ain't his first rodeo. And I want to say one more thing. When I was listening to the neighbor speak, and I think people need to understand, when you look at a case like this and you're only thinking from your vantage point, you can't

possibly accept it or understand it. But when you talk to criminologists like you and I, Nancy, we've talked. Probably their throats were slashed. They were posed. They were staged. Things were probably done there, whether it's a carving or some sort of ritual. If you look at it, if this was my case, one of the first things I would do is go to CVS and see if there's a camera in the girl's restaurant. Well, that's funny you would say that because after investigating a case in chief, the very next thing I would do is start looking for similar transactions. But you said

it so much more descriptively than I did, because a crime like this, there has got to be some prior, not necessarily in a Scott Peterson type case where that is a domestic homicide. He hasn't had another wife to kill. In a case like this, however, these are not his children. So although he does have a daughter near their age, that tells me there are very likely other victims. And I agree with you 300%. Now, what do we know about a 12 plus hour search of his home? Something in that home led them to ultimately arrest the local pharmacist, the tech, Richard Allen. Take a listen to our cut 83, our friends at Crime Online. And first, our friend, Lindsay Stone, Fox 59.

Richard Allen was not a stranger to this community. Information uncovered by our Russ DeQuade from sources with knowledge of the investigation found he even came forward in the early days of the investigation as a witness for the Monon High Bridge the day Abby and Libby were killed in February of 2017. Now at the time, any inquiry did not reveal the need for further investigation. However, his name surfaced again recently. A search warrant was issued at his house two weeks ago and revealed evidence reportedly linking him to the deaths.

He was arrested last Wednesday, his initial hearing Friday. Ten days before the arrest of murder suspect Richard Allen, police officers extensively searched the 50-year-old's home. Neighbors tell the New York Post the non-uniformed officers were on the property for about 12 hours. During the search of the property Allen shares with his wife, officers were seen, quote, snooping a lot around the fire pit and at the backyard. A neighbor describes, quote, lots of flashlights, lots of

pictures, lots of sifting, unquote, in that area. The source says that it was odd for them to be in that area as the Allens were never observed burning things. The neighbor also said when police arrived at the property, no one suspected that there would be a connection to the murders of Libby and Abby. What are they looking for? What were they looking for? If the Allen's really didn't use the fire pit, then what were they digging around for? Could it have anything to do with blood evidence? And there will be blood evidence. Mark my words. Take a listen to our friends at WISH.

This nine-page request for a search warrant filed March 17th of 2017. Now that's a little more than a month after Libby German and Abby Williams were found murdered in Delphi. This disturbing document for the first time gives us an investigator's description of the crime scene and what the suspect may have taken with him. The document written by an FBI agent describes what investigators found when they discovered the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German on February 14th. The agent writes a large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene. Because of the nature of the victim's wounds, it is nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten blood on his person or clothing. Straight out to Fox 59's Max Lewis. All of that together, let's make sense of it. Number one, a 12 plus hour search of Richard Allen's home. A few days later, they come back and arrest him. They're digging around a very unused fire pit with disturbed earth nearby.

We know there's blood evidence. And also, did you hear that? That he actually came forward as a witness in the early days of the investigation? Yeah, from what we have heard from our sources, you know, he, you know, walked up and volunteered to police and said, hey, you know, I was up there, I didn't really see anything, but, you know, I can tell you, you know, whatever you need to know, or whatever. So, you know, it's, that's sort of another amazing thing, and he was sort of brushed off and not really given a whole lot of thought to.

As far as the search goes on his house, yeah, they were, neighbors told us they were searching around there, digging in the backyard, digging in a fire pit. Makes you wonder what was in that fire pit. Was he trying to get rid of something? You know, what was going on back there? So many, so many unanswered questions about this, but it all doesn't look good. I want to circle back to what you just said. Tell me again, Max Lewis joining us from Fox 59, who's been on the case from the very, very beginning. You stated in the initial days of the investigation that Richard Allen went to police and said,

I was there and offered himself up as a witness. That's right. He was, you know, he said he was on the trail that day. And I'm not exactly sure how the encounter happened. If he was, you know, if police came upon him and started, you know, asking him or he just walked up to them and said, hey, I was here. Didn't see anything. But, you know, I can help you with what you need to know. But we do know that he was interviewed by police in the days after Abby and Libby first disappeared and then were found murdered. To Karen Stark joining me, renowned psychologist joining us out of Manhattan at KarenStark.com. That's Karen with a C.

Karen, he places himself at the scene of the murder. Scott Peterson did that. Idiot. He places himself there claiming he's fishing on Christmas Eve in the cold and the rain. And then Lacey and Connor's bodies turn up miraculously where he was fishing. And then in the weeks that followed, he was tracked back and forth to the San Francisco Bay, looking out over the water. I guess he was trying to see if their bodies had washed up. But also, it reminds me of Wayne Williams, the Atlanta serial killer.

He was always at the scene of the crime before anybody else got there under the guise of being a stringer for TV stations. He was always there. And I think trying to glean evidence from the police, trying to get information, were they on to him? What do you make of him coming to the scene in the days immediately following the gruesome murders of Abby and Libby. I'm not the least surprised, Nancy, because, yes, perhaps looking for evidence, but the truth is when you're that kind of person, a psychopath capable of doing this without empathy, you are in many instances reliving what happened. He's enjoying, believe it or not, every moment of this.

Very cunning and manipulative, sitting under posters with his own sketch in back of him. And I want to tell you something. You mentioned all those killers who everyone keeps saying, you know, gee, I never would have expected it of him. And that's not surprising because that's part of this MO, superficially charming, and they strike observers as remarkably normal, but they're not normal. Just the fact that he did that, think about it. He goes,

he's the one that ostensibly committed this crime and he's volunteering. And I think that very often police forget to look at a person like this, that they want to be there. They want to be a part of it. They're getting a thrill out of reliving it and being a part of the process. I don't know if the name Rodney Alcala rings a bell. And Cheryl, since you're jumping in, I'll throw this to you. He was the dating game killer, Rodney Alcala. And he was so charming.

He managed handsome, the works, to some people, not me, but many people. He was so charming and personable that they put him on the dating game. Remember that show? And he turned out to be a cold-blooded killer. Cold-blooded killer. But let's talk about people that ingratiate themselves in cases. Zodiac did it.

Zodiac couldn't take it and had to write them letters. And let's talk about another thing with Wayne Williams that is identical to this case. Wayne Williams also burned things, not in a fire pit, but on his grill. Remember, after police and FBI came? Okay. So these are people that the thrill that she mentioned is absolutely correct.

And that's another reason he hasn't maybe had to repeat the crime yet because he's still living this one. The family comes into CVS and he has contact with them. You know, ask them, hey, do you need anything? Maybe he goes to where Kelsey works. You know, Kelsey always said she worried about that. And that is the victim's sister. Had contact, but I'll tell you something else. I guarantee you he went to the funeral or the viewing, and I guarantee you he was a volunteer searcher, whether it was official or not.

I guarantee he was out there. Okay, I've got a pretty good idea what may have been burned in that fire pit. Take a listen to our friend Demi Johnson, WISH-TV. Authorities also found that two articles of clothing from one of the girls was missing from the crime scene while the rest of their clothing was recovered. It also appeared the girls' bodies were moved and staged. The agent goes on to say, based upon my training and experience, it is common for perpetrators of this type of crime to take a souvenir or in some fashion memorialize the crime scene. The agent also references the video on Libby's phone, confirming it was 43 seconds long. Up until now, only a few seconds have been made public.

That the girls were followed by the suspect on the Monon High Bridge Trail and that there were no visible signs of a struggle or fight. Okay, taking a souvenir. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Straight out to Fran Longwell joining us. Veter trial lawyer, expertise, homicide. What do you make of that, Fran? I think that's totally, that's natural. I think a lot of them, a lot of serial killers for sure, always seem to take some kind of souvenir. We had a case years ago where they were finding bodies along the Beltway and in areas of Prince George's County.

And years and years later, that suspect was found. He was able to draw pictures of each victim, what she looked like. And he had some souvenir of each one of those murders. I don't think that's unusual. I think that's part of their excitement of the crime. What about it, Karen Stark, New York psychologist joining us today from Manhattan. What about taking souvenirs? It's very common. It's like, you know, all those scrapbooks I have of the twins. I mean, I don't

even know how many I've got. Birthday, christening, Christmas, Thanksgiving, birthday, just goes on and on and summer vacation for every year. They're 15, Karen. Those are my souvenirs. But their souvenirs are of the crime, Nancy. They want to relive it. That's the whole thing is that it's exciting to them. So two pieces of clothing.

I hate to say this, but I have a feeling it will be underwear because they like to do that, to take underwear, to take some kind of token that they've been there, that they did this. It gives them a really good sense of themselves. They're powerful. They're above the law and they got away with it. And they're caught dead in the water. Cheryl McCollum, the evidence would suggest this and rumors have abounded, but we're not going to know until we have the release date of those warrants and probable cause affidavits in November, later on in November, we think. But what about the theory that the girls were redressed and that somehow some of their clothing were interchanged by accident?

Again, those of us in this business, redressing is something that occurs. I mean, it's something that they do. What about Ted Bundy? Oh, after the person was dead, he had redressed them and do their hair and makeup. He bathed their bodies in the bathtub at the house. Israel Keys did the same thing. Makeup, hair, redressed them, posed them. Braiding the girl's hair like poke.

Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. That's part of their fantasy. They're acting something out. So a lot of times we focus on the murder, but it is a sexually generated crime. There's no question about it. And again, his computers, when, you know, the superintendent mentioned the lab so often,

the electronic part, the biology, the tool marks, the voice analysis. The hairs, the fiber, the blood, the blood, the tool marks, which is from a knife. But I also think art is going to be a money tree. To Dr. Todd M. Barr, now joining us, speaking of blood, he is a board-certified anatomic clinical forensic pathologist joining us out of Ohio. He's featured in Thin Places, essays from in between. And you can find him on Twitter

at Todd Barr M.E. That's for medical examiner. Dr. Barr, thank you for being with us and waiting for the buildup to the scientists, the medical examiners that ultimately says there are no eyewitnesses as of yet

will make or break this case. We learned that there are copious amounts of blood at the scene. How is that likely to have happened? Well, Nancy, it seems to me, I know that there's been speculation that possibly the throats of the victims had been slashed and um you know because the carotid arteries are under such high pressure there would be a lot of um spatter and and uh disbursement of blood in the process so you're absolutely 100 correct that there'd be transfer of that blood evidence uh not only onto the victim's clothing but also under the perpetrator so um and my thought was know, maybe he even was burying the murder weapon that in the fire pit area, possibly the clothing. And I've worked on several serial killer cases before.

And they do like to take a trophy from, you know, it's been my experience that these articles that they collect are basically like a trophy. And I have to also think to myself that perhaps these people revisiting the case, trying to get involved in the case, there may even be some notoriety element, like they actually want to be caught. So I think that, you know, with a $20 million bond on this gentleman, there's got to be some significant evidence that they found. I know it's all sealed, but I'm very much concerned that there are other victims at play here. Wow. That was a lot of information, Dr. Todd Barr. Still digesting everything that you just said. Got a question. If this is, as we believe, a stabbing death, which I find very, very unusual.

I would have suspected a strangling death or some sort of asphyxiation under these circumstances. But due to the copious amounts of blood, blood to which have been alluded in the documents, it leads me to think that it is in fact a stabbing death. If there are multiple stab wounds, such as in the Jody Arias case where Travis Alexander was stabbed 29 plus times and then shot, would you be able to match that up? They're called tool markings, match the wounds up to a particular knife? And if so, how? Depending on the type of knife that may have been used, if it was one that had a serrated edge, you could actually, if the tool actually got into the bone in the area,

that's where the tool marks are found, when the blade would pass over the bone. And if it's serrated, they can actually match up those serrated edges almost identically to show that a specific tool was used. So if they do have the murder weapon and they have evidence of serrations on the bone, then that could very easily be matched up. Dr. Todd Barr, you really need to do an audio book on all the cases that you have worked because just hearing you explain it is very, very intriguing,

especially when you're talking about matching up tool markings. Guys, it ain't over yet. It is far from over. Take a listen to this. This is rather unusual, but it's not going to be forever. This is very complex. And just since, what, less than 48 hours ago, we have over 200 new additional tips. so we've still got some moves still got a lot of work to do but I'm proud of where we are can you characterize any of those tips if you could say well it's kind of what we have gotten or like whoa we've gotten something I mean I know you can't talk

specific I'll say that I'll say to you to the to to everybody watching this morning every one of those matter every single one of the matters so if you think it's a little bit unusual, tell us. Let us figure that out. And we're not always going to tell you what we know until the time is right. We'll never tell you what we think. While the investigation is ongoing and tips pouring in, the harsh reality is setting into the girls' families.

Their quest has been to find the killer. Take a listen to our cut 78. I've always told people that when we were told that they'd hear me yelling from the rooftops and when they told us it was really just kind of like oh reality was much different than what I totally expected. I got up the next morning and got my coffee and got ready to post my today is the day and realized that, well, I don't have to do this anymore. So I think that's when some of reality set in and I'm thinking now now what do I do? What is my purpose? You're hearing Libby's grandma, our friend now

Becky Patty speaking to our friends at HLN. What now? I advise everyone that now focuses on a true verdict. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye friend.