Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Killers Amongst US: Bride sends out 'Save-the-Dates,' found stabbed 20 times, RULED SUICIDE! (episode 2)

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

Teacher and bride-to-be Ellen Greenberg is found inside a locked apartment stabbed 20 times, including the back of the neck. Her body is discovered by her fiancé after he returns from a workout to find the apartment door locked from the inside. Joining Nancy Grace today: Sandee Greenberg - Mother Josh Greenberg - Father Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney, Fulton County, Georgia, Defense Attorney  Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta Ga www.angelaarnoldmd.com  Tom Brennan - Private Investigator for the Greenbergs Stephanie Farr - Reporter, Philadelphia Inquirer, Twitter: @FarFarrAway Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. Welcome back to Killers Amongst Us, a production of iHeart Media and Crime Online. You ever work out at the gym and look around and wonder, who are those people? Who's pushing those weights? Who's lifting free weights? Who's looking in the gym mirrors? Of course, they always have the mirrors all the way around, like it or not. Who's in your aerobics or spin class, your yoga class? You think you know them, but do you? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Killers Amongst Us. We left off talking about this gorgeous girl, Ellen Greenberg, just beautiful on the outside and the inside. I'm always struck by her long,

shiny black hair and a perfect smile, like a picket fence. Take a listen. Greenberg's personal life was going just as well as her teaching career. Greenberg lived in an apartment with her boyfriend Samuel Goldberg. He was a television producer for NBC. In fact, the pair were engaged and planning a wedding. Save the date cards had just been sent to guests. Friends tell Oxygen Greenberg was all smiles. We all received the save the date in the mail. I remember calling her on the phone saying, oh my God, they're so beautiful. And she was so excited. Joining me, Sandy Greenberg, Ellen's mom.

Her dad, Josh. Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now defense attorney with Cohen Cooper, East Step and Allen. Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist out of Atlanta at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Tom Brennan, private investigator on Team Ellen. And you can find him at TomBrennanConsulting.com. And joining us, crack reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer, Stephanie Farr. And on Twitter, she's far, far away to ours, F-A-R-R. Everyone, thank you for being with us. We're just talking about save the dates.

And I just can't think of a happier time in my life than when I finally decided to get married, other than when I had my twins. But the excitement and the joy of knowing I was starting a whole new chapter was someone that I loved. Sandy, do you remember when Ellen first told you they were getting married? I remember it vividly. She was so excited. She was with Sam in California, and they pulled over along the coastline.

They were taking a drive, and he bent down on one knee and proposed. And in some of the media, you can see a picture of her in a jean jacket holding her hand up with the ring. She just was over the moon. That's the photo that I'm looking at right now. And now that you tell me what it is, I recognize it. Did you say it was on Pacific One, that beautiful coastal drive? Exactly. Oh, beautiful, beautiful.

And it goes for miles and miles and miles. When did she call you and tell you about it? Well, there was a time difference. Honestly, I don't remember. Do you remember that call, Josh Greenberg, when she called and said, guess what, I'm engaged? Not really, because that was really between the mother and daughter. I'm the father. I'm sort of on the outs on some of these things, if you know what I mean.

Josh, you sound just like my husband. Some things I'm in on and some things I'm sort of on the outs on some of these things, if you know what I mean. Josh, you sound just like my husband. Some things I'm in on and some things I'm just not. And I've learned when to keep my mouth shut when I'm not. Oh, well, you know what? That's a very valuable lesson. I'm going to have you teach one-on-one with my husband. But I don't know if I can afford that kind of lesson because, again, that is invaluable. That would break the bank to get him to learn that. So say josh greenberg you've actually learned to keep your mouth shut

is that true sandy because i'm having a hard time believing that a husband has learned to keep his mouth shut don't break in daryl cohen no comment i learned a long time ago a y he broke in i said don't break in he Sandy, go ahead. Let's ignore Daryl's rude interruptions. We just have a joke between us that he's going to get a big roll of duct tape and keep it right in front of him to put it over his face so he'll control himself. And, Josh, I'm sure she means that in a loving, caring way. You know my secret now. Guys, we're talking about this beautiful girl. I call her a girl.

She's 27. She's a fantastic teacher. And she just gets engaged and is sending out the save the dates. You know, and that's why I think Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist joining us at the Atlanta jurisdiction, the dichotomy, the juxtaposition of that happy moment in her life then followed so brutally that life cut short. Guys, take a listen to our friends at Dr. Oz. She was at home with her fiance until 4.45 p.m. when he reportedly went to the gym in their apartment complex. When he arrived back to the apartment less than an hour later, he says he found the apartment locked from the inside.

He claims he banged on the door and received no response. Over the next 22 minutes, he would try to convince Ellen to open the door through text messages. I'm just curious. I know that was a snow day, but is that why Ellen was at home? Josh, she was home from school? We're going to set the scene. It was one of those Nor'easters. And yes, Ellen had come home early.

Ellen had filled up her car with gas. Ellen had called various parents to make sure that the children were home because she was an elementary school teacher and these are young children from the Juniana School in Philadelphia. And that's the scene. That sets the scene. Sandy probably had a conversation with Ellen earlier in the day because they speak every day. But basically it was a snowstorm. The school was closing. Ellen put gas in her car in case she needed it. And Ellen made sure her students got home. I'm just thinking about her taking time to call the students. You know, I want to go to Sandy Greenberg. And guys, yes, I know all of you busy people. I'm digressing. But you know, Sandy Greenberg we had a a teacher that really took an interest

in the twins and she was a short little thing but she was a strict disciplinarian a lot of students were afraid of her but particularly she would slip my son extra reading assignments and I'm like I said David, do you think that possibly we need to work on your reading skills? And he said, Oh, no, mom, these are just for fun. Well, one of them was about a little tiny lighthouse in New York. Can I tell you how long it took us to find the quote, little red lighthouse underneath the bridge. I can't remember where the thing was. And it was of course not a tourist destination. We had to get out of the cab. We were in, walk down this rocky hill to get down there and nearly kill myself. But I was

trying to act like, you know, I'm happy vivacious mom. And so we get down and it really was, it couldn't have been taller than 30 feet, a little red lighthouse. And my point is that when we took a picture of it, we sent it to her. When they got back to school, she had for John David and Lucy each a little lighthouse key chain that lit up. And do you know they still talk about that? That was, I think, in either the first or second grade, how much a teacher can mean to a student, Sandy. And I'm just thinking about your daughter, Ellen, calling, trying to get each one of these parents to say, hey, it's a snow day. Your child's coming home. You know, we're lucky if we get a text. I mean,

that takes love and devotion, Sandy. Well, it also is part of her constitution that she was very responsible and very attentive and, you know, took care of everyone before she found her way home. So she's home early that day. Now, how is it? Fiance, who also lives there, goes to the gym. He comes back. The door is locked from the inside. So he can't get back in. What? Jump in. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have her gas receipt. She filled up her car. It was on January 26th at 1.26. That's when she was filling up her car. So she was home maybe five minutes later in terms of a timeline. As far as we know, Nancy, the door was locked. You weren't there. I wasn't there. The fiancé was there alone. He wasn't escorted. So we don't even know if the door was locked.

We don't know if the whole thing was a setup, for lack of a better term. Maybe the door wasn't locked. You know, I've been thinking about that very same thing because that's the oldest trick in the book. Even my son can figure that out in murder mysteries that the first person to the scene uh adjusts whether the door is locked or unlocked and then if they break the door down who's to know if that inside lock was or was not locked so explain to me you had been to her apartment josh explain to me what do we mean by the door was locked from the inside because if it's just a little you know uh the door handle a lot where you push a button you can kick that in the door has swing lock swing lock is the type of lock you see when you go to a hotel it swings out it's not a bolt a dead bolt. If you go on YouTube or like there, they will show you

how to lock that swing lock from outside the door so it appears like it was locked. There was also pictures that the medical examiner's team took of the lock. The lock is not deformed. When you have a lock that goes on the door and the frame, there are two screws on the door, two screws on the frame. Now, one screw is missing, but there weren't even any chips on the floor from the lock being destroyed or the screw being removed. So the screw probably, and this is just a guess on my part i'm not an expert was just unscrewed to look like it was broken into so we don't really know that that the lock was ever damaged or just dismembered or taken off the door so the whole thing we are now saying about the door being locked just came to me as we discussed this. We don't know that. None of us were there.

You know, I want to focus just for a moment on what Josh Greenberg has just said to Tom Brennan, private investigator who was on Team Ellen Greenberg, as many of us are, to try to find the truth of what happened that day. Tom, my son and daughter and I and husband, we drag him along with us, watch Murder Mysteries all the time. So while they're not graphic, so the children won't be afraid, Tom Brennan, it's to the point now, even my 13-year-old twins, before they turned 13, could say, oh, the guy that came to the scene, that door wasn't locked. He didn't have to really break in. So that's kind of a trick of the trade, Tom Brennan. But I actually had not thought of that until Josh brought it up. In the apartments, in the lofts where Ellen and Sam live, there are security cameras located in different areas throughout the apartment building.

But there aren't any in the hall. So if in fact the door was in fact locked or unlocked, we don't know. Well, I'm glad you said that. Take a listen to our friends in the Philadelphia District Attorney's Office. There are some video in this particular apartment complex. The video does not show, unfortunately, the hallway where Ellen lived, but the video does show the entrance to the facility as well as the corridor or the hallway leading into the gym. It's not a fantastic video, but it does show that. In addition to that, you need a key fob to enter the building. And if I remember correctly, you need a key fob to enter

the gym. And I remember looking at, if I recall properly, and I think that I am, that both the video surveillance as well as the key fob does show him going into the gym in or around 5.01 p.m. He was at the gym for approximately 30 minutes, give or take. So leaves the apartment around 5, maybe 4.59, 5 p.m., takes the elevator downstairs, goes to the gym, and is there for approximately 29 or 30 minutes, and then returns back to the apartment. Guys, you're hearing the former Philly ADA guy, D'Andrea, on his YouTube channel. Now, wait a minute. He got a whole workout in in under 30 minutes? Must have been one of those speed circuit training things. Go ahead. The video depicts him

going back up to the apartment from the gym, coming back down, walking over to the area where the concierge is, picking up some mail. He's reading some

mail as he gets back on the elevator, goes back upstairs, comes back down again, walks around on his cell phone, talking on his cell phone, goes back up on the elevator. So this takes about an hour. Wow. Tom Brennan, private investigator with TomBrennanConsulting.com.

You know, that's not the way I understood it. And I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying I didn't understand all those facts because I thought after his 29-minute workout, which I would love to see what that was if they have video in the gym but I thought he went straight up to the apartment couldn't get in banged on the door came down to the doorman or as you said concierge tried to get him to help open the door he wouldn't help for various reasons and that the fiance goes back up and then breaks the door down. If you don't mind, if you could explain that very carefully, Josh Greenberg, this is Ellen's dad. I'm hearing what Tom Brennan is saying.

That's the first time I've heard that scenario. What does the video show, Josh? Well, let Tom continue. That's really his specialty yeah okay good tom tell me exactly one more time and take it slowly because i'm making notes go ahead tom what is the video show okay what the video shows is it depicts sam coming down getting off the elevator going into the gym approximately 30 minutes later he exits exits the gym. Approximately 30 minutes later, he exits the gym, gets back on the elevator, and goes upstairs. Okay.

Then you see him coming back down, walks over towards the concierge desk, goes out of sight. When he comes back into view on the security camera, he has a letter or a piece of paper that he's reading, gets back on the elevator, and goes upstairs. A few minutes later, he comes back down, goes over to the concierge. He's out of sight for a while, comes back into view, and he's on his cell phone then he gets back into the elevator and goes back upstairs now what you have to understand with the swing the the uh swinging bar lock that was on the door each mounting there are four screws well i've got a question tom tom hold on before we get to the the door lock i thought he came down and begged the concierge to open up the door because ellen

wouldn't open the door on two different occasions but that according to the concierge, that's what he told me. And the concierge informed him then that it was against company policy and he couldn't help him out. But I didn't hear you describe that on his four trips down. I never heard you say that the video showed him going to the concierge it just shows him walking towards the area where the concierge is it doesn't show him talking to concierge wow wait a minute that's not it all the way i imagined it to stephanie farr um h reporter with the Philadelphia Inquirer, you can find Stephanie at Far Far Away on Twitter. Stephanie, I thought he went from the gym there in the building, goes upstairs, can't get in, beats on the door, thinks something's wrong, races back down, goes to the doorman or the concierge, frantically going, help me, help me, help me, and goes back up. I'm hearing a completely different scenario, Stephanie Farr. I think that Tom's just saying that he when you can't see him when he gets off the elevator and you know, it goes out of view when he's in conversation with the concierge. The concierge

told me that he came down two or three times to ask him to let him in and that he was told that it was against company policy. So he couldn't let him in. Sandy Greenberg, why was it against company policy for the concierge, the doorman, to open the door? I honestly don't know the answer, but that's what we were told, so he wasn't able to leave his post. Tom Brennan, is it because it was the fiancé's name on the lease? Yes, it was. Huh, well then why wouldn't he open the door? Well, according to the concierge, he, it was. Huh. Well, then why wouldn't he open the door?

According to the concierge, he said it was against company policy to do that. And he told Sam Greenberg that he would have to call the maintenance supervisor. And the maintenance supervisor was over in New Jersey. So he would have to wait for the maintenance supervisor to return to unlock the door to get in. Wow. Okay, Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now defense attorney with Cohen, Cooper, Eastup, and Allen. Daryl, I've never heard of that. And we've been living in our high rise in New York since, oh my goodness, 1997.

So if my husband went to the doorman and said, something is wrong,'s inside she's not coming to the door get in the door they would come open the door i cannot even imagine that the concierge if the concierge had a key and had access would not open the door considering this young man ellen's fiance, was on the lease. So that makes zero sense to me. But I guess sometimes logic doesn't control. It is what it is, and it makes no sense. I'm right there with you. You have to understand, Dan used his key to open the door.

He couldn't get in because the swinging bar lock was on the door okay so that means that he couldn't lock the door get in unless somebody else decided to get in to let him in so it wasn't because he said i won't do it. Apparently, the concierge said, I cannot do it, which makes a big difference. Interesting. But you know what? Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, joining us at AngelaArnoldMD.com. When you look back, it may not have seemed like a big deal at that moment, because if I couldn't get in and David wasn't coming to the door,

I would naturally assume something was very wrong, because that would be out of his norm. He would absolutely come to the door with me banging on the door. So when you look back in retrospect, I would have expected the fiance to be basically jumping up and down, standing on his head.

Help me, help me, help me. Instead of just walking by and let me tell everybody. Fiance, not a suspect or a person of interest. Just let's get that clear. But it could mean any number of things, Dr. Angie. It could, and it certainly doesn't make a bit of sense, does it, Nancy, the way he acted. And so, you know, I mean, Nancy, sometimes your actions can't really be explained, can they? And they shine a bad light on you. I understand that nobody's

pointing any fingers, but. We have heard what Sam said to try and entice Ellen to open the door. Some of the people who have heard it did not feel it was very reassuring, comforting, lovingly like. It was very brutal, like don't piss me off, open the door. That's what I am under the impression that some of this was said. Don't piss me off, open the door. That's what I am under the impression that some of this was said. Don't piss me off. Open the door. I'm sorry? Do we know if they had had a fight?

I mean, why would he have to entice her to open the door unless they had had a fight that she probably considered brutal? Again, I'm going to say we don't know if the door was locked, do we? No, we don't know if the door was locked, do we? No, we don't. We do know he opened the door with a key, and allegedly he claims he broke the door down. Excuse me. The swing lock, as I have said, had one screw missing, no deformity in the shape of the swing lock or anything like that, no chips of wood on the floor by the door was clean

was the door locked was the door really locked we don't know or was it put in a locked position later on guys take a listen to former philadelphia ada guy d'andrea on his youtube channel listen he conclusively stated in his signed statement to Philadelphia homicide detectives that he did not go upstairs. In other words, he was not there when the door was when entry was made into the apartment. There were some neighbors who lived on that floor who did give statements as well. And they had indicated that for approximately an hour, hour and 10 minutes, give or take, they did hear, with the exception of when Sam went downstairs to speak with the security guard, they did hear banging. They heard yelling

from Sam into the apartment to have the door opened. And also take a listen to what we learn as it relates to what PI Tom Brennan just told us. Samuel Goldberg, Ellen's fiance, went to use the gym in the complex about 4.45 p.m. When he came back a half an hour later, he was locked out. The apartment's swing bar lock was engaged from the inside. He banged on the door to no response, so he tried to reach Greenberg using his phone and text messages. Over the next 22 minutes, his messages became increasingly frustrated. Here's some of what he texted. Hello. Open the door. What are you doing? I'm getting pissed. You better have an excuse. What

the f**k? You have no idea. Finally, Goldberg goes to the lobby to speak with the lone security guard that night, asking him to help break the lock. The guard refuses, saying it was against policy. At 6.33 p.m., Goldberg forces the door open himself, then calls 911. From our friends at Crime Online. But let me understand, Stephanie Farr with the Philadelphia Inquirer. Is it correct that he, the fiancé, told cops he was not there when the door was broken down? No, no, I don't think that that is correct. According to the documents from the medical

examiner's office that I read, he said he was the one to break down the door. Those documents initially indicated that the doorman may have been with him when the door was broken down but given my investigation and tom's uh in speaking with the security guard we we know that that's not true that he remained at his desk the entire time okay so is it your understanding tom brennan that the fiance and the doorman were present when the door was broken in no no no no that's not what i said no the initial reports said that the doorman was present with his fiancee when the door was broken down but when tom and i interviewed the doorman throughout the course of our investigation the doorman denied that and said he never left his

guard post that night somebody's not telling the truth possibly okay uh what everybody has to remember here, okay, if you're talking about weird, okay, why would Sam call Sandy and Josh before he does anything with anyone, okay, when he can't make entry into the apartment? Sam called Sandy and Josh on their landline and told Sandy, what did Sam say to you? He said that he was locked out of the apartment and wondering if we had heard from Ellen, which I hadn't spoken with her since, you know, seven ish that morning because he couldn't get in and I said oh well maybe she's drying her hair I'm sure you know give it a little time and you know try again then I don't hear anything until I get a call from Sam's father later that evening that something terrible happened to Ellie you know that's the last thing I would think of doing. I'm at the New York apartment and David's inside and I can't get in.

The last thing I would think of doing is calling his family back home in Georgia and saying, hey, I can't get in the door. I'm not sure what that's all about. What were you saying, Tom Brennan? You know, if you want to talk about weird, okay, and you want to talk about behavior. Why would an individual who can't get in the apartment, instead of yelling, hey, honey, open the freaking door, okay, why would he call her parent? I'll tell you why, is what I speculated earlier. They had a fight, and he wanted to call her parents to I'll tell you why, is what I speculated earlier. They had a fight, and he

wanted to call her parents to see whether or not she was that mad, that livid about whatever it is they thought about. Thank you very much, Darrell. You know, Darrell, as I said earlier with me, former prosecutor, now veteran defense attorney, trial lawyer, Dararyl Cohen. Daryl, as I just mentioned earlier, the fiance has not been named a person of interest, has not been named a suspect in this case, certainly has not been charged. And I'll tell you why. Do you remember, Daryl, the Julie Love murder case? Absolutely. love a murder case absolutely do you know julie love this gorgeous um physical therapy type gym teacher at a pre-k is out jogging coincidentally near my apartment at the time in atlanta and

goes missing can't find her time passes of course everybody knows at that point she's dead and but we can't find her you know how many times I went to our boss then Daryl you and I both served under Louis Slayton the longest serving district attorney in the country at that time nearly 40 years elected and I said we're not indicting the boyfriend. Can I please have this case? Can I please indict the boyfriend? Can I? And he just was like, no, no, let's just wait.

And of course, he was seasoned. And I had been in the office a year, maybe. Well, guess what? He was right. As time passed, as it happened coincidentally, a girlfriend, totally unrelated, had been beaten up by her boyfriend. She called cops. She was so afraid the boyfriend would kill her because she called the cops, she ratted out that he saw Julie Love with some of his friends.

They picked her up, raped her, murdered her. The only thing that was found of her body, where the girlfriend directed, was way out in East Bumble... Buck. Outside of Atlanta, there was a glass eye. Nobody even knew that Julie Love had a glass eye. And I believe a bone or two. That was what glass eye. Nobody even knew that Julie Love had a glass eye and I believe a bone or two. That was what was left. Now what a fine mess, what a fine kettle of fish we'd have had Daryl Cohen

if anybody had listened to me and others in the DA's office. So you can't leap to a prosecution until you've got the goods. And I learned that. I was still drawing up indictments. I hadn't even been in a courtroom yet. I had no idea what I was talking about. So, Darrell, you have to have the evidence before you can go forward. Well, actually, Nancy, you had a great idea, and that made perfect logical sense fortunately lewis knew better than all of us

and said let's just wait and his intuition his knowledge his expertise was right and it was spot on man i miss him i miss him and his wife didn't bring her back but it certainly saved her ex boyfriend from dying from the d DP through even more help. And just as an aside, Daryl, did you know, fast forward like seven years, the perp in that case was Herbert Cornell Stevens, as you'll recall, and was convicted in the murder of Julie Love. Seven years later, I prosecuted Cornell Stevens' first cousin for murder. So I guess it ran in the family. Back to this, guys. Sandy, Josh, Dr. Angie, Tom, Stephanie. You probably, Stephanie, have the same thing at your job at the Philadelphia Inquirer.

This is what happens when you're analyzing a case. You go totally off topic and then you come back. My point being, everybody always suspects the husband, the boyfriend, the lover at the get-go statistically. Because statistically, it's them. Not true in every case but i am having a problem with the inconsistencies josh greenberg because i've already spotted several of them there are a number i believe uh mr goldberg said that he was accompanied to the door when he broke it down and i stephanie has said and I believe Thomas said, we have spoken

with the concierge front desk person, whatever. And he has signed a, uh, we've, we've, I don't know. We've got a legal document. I don't know what that's called exactly where he said an affidavit would be good. He will also probably be, uh, um, spoken to with my attorney to get with our attorney to get a formal, uh, I can't remember the name, somebody's legal name, that physician or whatever, that he did not accompany Mr. Goldberg to the door. And if you look at the lock, the lock doesn't show damage, the swing lock. It doesn't show any damage. In fact, a local TV station's lawyers took it off the air before it was presented

because it was so incriminating that the lock was not damaged by the testimony of whoever said he broke the lock down. We don't know if that lock was ever engaged before Sam entered that apartment. Since we don't have any knowledge of the response to Ellen by saying something to the the voicemails that Tom the Tom that Sam was saying to her maybe she was not able to answer or maybe she didn't want to answer we don't know we just don't know. We just don't know. But there are no answers. And as you've heard by that piece that you ran, the tone was not that of loving, caring, etc. Also, Sam had been on his cell phone periodically before he came up there, I believe Tom said. It wasn't like he was just walking around looking at the stars.

He was talking to people on his cell phone. We don't know if there were people there for him to talk to or who he was talking to. There are tremendous things don't make sense. Whoever and however that door was finally broken down, although you see no chipping, no wood flecks, no nothing, the lock's still intact. Take a listen to what we learn. Here's our friend, Dr. Oz. At 6.33 p.m., her fiancé says he forced open the door to find Ellen dead on the floor of the kitchen. Stabbed 20 times in the chest, neck, and head.

There was a knife still lodged in her chest. Ellen was pronounced dead at 6 40 p.m investigators evaluating the scene and her autopsy ultimately stated that she died by suicide there were no obvious signs of an intruder or evidence of a struggle there was no suicide well i don't understand how can you possibly dr angela arnold uh you're the MD, I'm just a JD, but how can you possibly stab yourself 20 times in the chest, the neck, and the head? How can you do that? Nancy, we all know that you can't. That's completely impossible. Especially, Dr. Angie, take a listen to this. This is our friend with CBS3 Philly News, Jan Carabello.

She was stabbed 20 times, half of the wounds to the back of her neck. You talk to any reasonable person and they all say, what the hell is going on? Tom Brennan logged 25 years with the Pennsylvania State Police and worked at the FBI's behavioral science unit in Quantico Virginia now retired he has worked nearly seven years pro bono with the Greenbergs investigating Ellen's death I said this is a homicide but the medical examiner's report says there was no sign of a struggle nothing was obviously missing or disturbed only Ellen's DNA was found on the knife in her chest, and Ellen had no defense injuries to her hands or forearms.

Still, Brennan says none of that proves this was suicide. Didn't they ever hear a blitz where a victim doesn't get the opportunity to defend themselves? I don't get it, Tom. Brennan, we're hearing your voice along with John, Jan Carabello. Did I understand it correctly? There are 20 stab wounds with half of them being to the back of the neck. Yes. And one to the right side of the scalp. That's 6.5 centimeters long. So what the hell was that? A near miss? How can that possibly be a suicide? I mean, I'm just a trial lawyer, but there's just no way.

And Nancy, through all of this, everybody's saying there's a lack of defense wounds, lack of defense wounds. Well, if you take a look at the autopsy photographs, and you take a look at the victim's wrists and the way the wrists that were examined, okay, you can see that there's evidence of restraint, that there are defense wounds on the victim's wrists. So, you know, this story about lack of defense wounds is bullshit. And that is a technical legal term that I've used very often in my law practice well i can tell you this there is no way that this is a suicide so what now nancy grace killers amongst us signing off goodbye friend this is an iHeart Podcast.