Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Killers Amongst US: Bride sends out 'Save-the-Dates,' found stabbed 20 times, RULED SUICIDE! (episode 3)

Episode Date: February 17, 2021

Teacher and bride-to-be Ellen Greenberg is found inside a locked apartment stabbed 20 times, including the back of the neck. Her body is discovered by her fiancé after he returns from a workout to find the apartment door locked from the inside. The investigation turns to Greenberg's body. How could someone stab themselves, injuring the spinal cord, yet continue a brutal assault on themselves? And more, how is that ruled a suicide? Joining Nancy Grace today: Sandee Greenberg - Mother Josh Greenberg - Father Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney, Fulton County, Georgia, Defense Attorney  Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta Ga www.angelaarnoldmd.com  Tom Brennan - Private Investigator for the Greenbergs Stephanie Farr - Reporter, Philadelphia Inquirer, Twitter: @FarFarrAway Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. Welcome back to Killers Amongst Us, a production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. You go in and out of your home, your garage, your front or back door. You see the neighbors, you see people going by on the street or in your apartment building you see people in the parking lot going in and out all the time do you ever stop and notice them today killers amongst us I'm Nancy grace we're talking about the story of a beautiful young Philly teacher,

beautiful on the inside and the outside, Ellen Greenberg, just 27 years old, had just sent out her save-the-date announcements for her wedding. She had the world by the tail. What happened? Listen to this. 27-year-old Ellen Greenberg was a first grade teacher in Philadelphia she and her boyfriend of three years had just become engaged and began planning their wedding January 26 2011 Ellen's school let out

early due to an oncoming blizzard on her way home she filled up her gas tank she was at home with her fiance until until 4.45 p.m., when he reportedly went to the gym in their apartment complex. When he arrived back to the apartment less than an hour later, he says he found the apartment locked from the inside. He claims he banged on the door and received no response. Over the next 22 minutes, he would try to convince Ellen to open the door through text messages. So what happened?

Why wouldn't Ellen come to the door, according to the fiance? Take a listen to our friend Dr. Oz. At 6.33 p.m., her fiance says he forced open the door to find Ellen dead on the floor of the kitchen, stabbed 20 times in the chest, neck, and head. There was a knife still lodged in her chest. Ellen was pronounced dead at 6.40 p.m. Investigators evaluating the scene and her autopsy ultimately stated that she died by suicide. There were no obvious signs of an intruder or evidence of a struggle. There was no suicide note. I still don't understand how you can stab yourself 20 plus times, including to the side of your head and the back of your neck.

With me, an all-star panel. Stephanie Farr, reporter, Philadelphia Inquirer. You can find her on Twitter at Far, Far Away, F-A-R-R. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University. Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Star of a brand new hit series on True Crime Network, Poisonous Liaisons. Private investigator on Team Greenberg, Tom Brennan. Renowned psychiatrist joining me out of the Atlanta area, Dr. Angela Arnold.

You can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor turned defense attorney, Daryl Cohen. Attorney with Cohen, Cooper, Estep, and Allen. And special guests joining me, Ellen's dad, Josh Greenberg, and her mother, Sandy Greenberg. You know, Sandy, we were talking earlier about getting that phone call from the fiance asking about Ellen. Do you remember that? Yes.

Sam called on our landline, which was kind of surprising because we only used the cell phones. surprising because he we only used the cell phones I picked it up and he wanted to know if I had heard from Ellen because he was locked out of the apartment and I said oh she's probably drying her hair give it a couple of minutes and you know it shouldn't be a problem and the call you know the call was brief and we didn't hear anything till we got a call later that evening from Richard Goldberg saying that something terrible happened. What was your immediate reaction when you heard, quote, something terrible has happened to Ellie? Where's the where's the ambulance? And trying to find my voice to scream for my husband.

You know, I didn't. Had he called for for an ambulance i don't i don't know josh greenberg do you know if the fiance called for an ambulance we have no way of knowing i don't know i find that really odd joe scott morgan you've been on many a scene wouldn't there be records of who called for the ambulance yeah yeah there would and uh it would seem as though that the initial finder who in this case uh is is this boyfriend uh would have been the individual to have you know taken up the mantle here and merely dialed 9- But at the bottom line, when the police arrived, I don't understand why an ambulance would not have come out to the scene, at least to do an initial assessment. Even if it's just to walk up to the door and the police say,

no, she's gone, you guys need to back out, this is now a crime scene. This is Tom. Go ahead, jump in. Mr. Goldberg, Sam sam goldberg did in fact uh when he made entry into the the apartment um did call 9-1-1 we do have that 9-1-1 call that's right and the operator explained to him about doing cpr yeah and uh that's when he approached the victim. He was... Wait a minute, wait a minute.

He had not approached her yet? No. I'm going to jump in also here. We're all jumping in. I believe he said to the 911 operator, do I have to? No, now wait a minute, Josh. Let's get it straight, okay? Okay, Tom.

He approached the victim. The operator asked him if he knew how to administer CPR. Sam Goldberg said that he didn't. She said, I'll basically walk you through it. He knelt down beside her, and he said, oh, my God, she's got a knife in her chest. She must have fell on a knife. And she said, don't touch anything. Don't touch anything.

Stop right there. And when he knelt down, he said, do I have to do this? And she said, yeah. And he said, oh, s***. So he's the one that did in fact make the 911 call. We do have video, security video, when the EMS fire department personnel arrived at the scene and were escorted to the elevator by the concierge. What I find amazing is that the individual EMS person from the fire department that pronounced Ellen at 640 p.m. and his lieutenant were never interviewed by the homicide investigator.

Straight out to Stephanie Farr, reporter with the Philadelphia Inquirer. Stephanie, thank you for being with us. As I recall, the Philadelphia Inquirer released a front-page report that went over the circumstances surrounding Ellen's death. And we learned that renowned pathologist Cyril Wecht, you recall Wecht challenged the John F.K. single-person assassination, reviewed the case and stated it was strongly suspicious of homicide. And Wecht also stated, I don't know how they wrote this off as a suicide. Also, a man that I respect greatly, Henry Lee, as you recall from OJ Simpson fame, reviewed the case, and he also concluded the number and types of wounds and bloodstain patterns observed are consistent with a homicide scene.

What else was in the Philadelphia Inquirer's front page report, Stephanie? We went from the beginning when Sandy and Josh got the call that night through the investigation that occurred. In my interviews with police, when they arrived on scene initially, it was treated as a suicide that night for several reasons. The apartment door lock was a big factor of the case for police. The fact that Sam Goldberg had remained on scene and was cooperative was also one, and that there were no signs of an intruder and the lack of defense was factored heavily in their determination. Also, it's my understanding that police did not realize how many times she had been stabbed at the scene that night. While they didn't see the knife in her chest, it was only the next day at autopsy that all 20 of the wounds were discovered.

Joe Scott, weigh in. If I could just go back to what Ms. Farr was saying just a moment ago about the nature of these wounds and not being able to assess them at the scene, that's certainly par for the course. That's not anything that is unusual because there is such a copious amount of blood in these cases. And that goes to a bigger issue. She had lost a tremendous amount of blood in this particular case. So you can't assess the body at the scene and really know what's going on.

So, you know, when you look at this in total, is it possible at the scene at that moment in time to contextualize what's going on? I think that just because these cases where you have, quote unquote, self-inflicted stab wounds are rare. I mean, very rare. I think over the course of a 20 plus year career at the ME in Atlanta and New Orleans, I may have worked a total of five self-inflicted suicide cases. You just don't come along because there's so much pain involved. You mean suicide by knife? Yes, yes, self-inflicted knife wounds. And I'm not talking about an individual. Were they men or women? Let's see.

I'd say that I have one that was, in fact, a woman that I know of, the other men, but this is the one thing they all had in common. Single stab? No, no. I would have multiple stab, but this is the one thing they all had in common. They were being treated, I think probably four out of five were all being treated for some type of severe mental illness that brought on manic phases or delusional phases. And I just don't see evidence of that here.

I want to circle back to what we know about the injuries to Ellen, because it's my understanding that there was one particular stab wound that penetrated Ellen's brain. And we know that was not the last stab wound because the knife was found in her chest. And I want to apologize to Mr. and Mrs. Greenberg for discussing her wounds so, oh gosh, surgically. But the significance of this one stab to her brain. I don't understand how a stab to the brain and the spinal cord, A, would not have caused incredible pain. And nerve dysfunction, if you're stabbed in the brain traumatic brain injuries so how could you then go ahead and stab yourself in the chest after that that's let me go to tom brennan on that what do you make of that um if you take a look at one particular wound, the wound tract, it penetrates the spinal cord and goes in an upward upward direction into the brain and causing causes hemorrhaging in the brain.

So that one wound would have totally incapacitated the victim or would have caused death. And that is exactly what you told Dr. Oz. Listen. We engaged a neuroforensic pathologist who I had worked with in the past. And he studied all of the information that I had. And it was his opinion that this was a homicide and not a suicide. And he said the wounds would have severed the nerves in the spinal cord, and if you take, if you look at the wound track, the wound track goes in an up direction into the

brain and causes a hemorrhage in the brain. So following that wound itself, the victim could no longer self-harm. To you, Joe Scott Morgan, what do you make of that? Yeah, Nancy, this is what I make of it. Just like Tom is saying, this wound track itself would penetrate into an area that involves the primal brain

that kind of controls our autonomic nervous system. You know, the things that, you know, we don't think, obviously, about our heartbeat. We don't tell our heart to beat. It's not like picking up a can of soda. So these are primal brain functions. And, you know, you couple that with the injuries that she sustained with her. There's a nick to her aorta, I believe. There's an injury to her, the lobe of one of her lungs. And that means what that's saying is that

there would have been just a tremendous amount of internal blood loss so that coupled with the insult to uh to this uh this insult to the brain uh would have been it's it's a it's a double whammy I don't see how you get past this as an investigator or in as a forensic pathologist being able to to frame this like they are let's talk about the scene itself um i want to talk about the layout of the apartment what can you tell me josh and sandy about the layout of her apartment was it what level was it on first second third it was on the sixth floor and i I think that was pretty sure that, yeah, it was on the sixth floor. And there were no cameras in the hallways, correct? I don't know, but I could tell you that when you walk down the hallway, I could hear Ellen talking in her kitchen, which is the room that when the door opens up, that's what you enter into. Do we know, Tom Brennan, if there was any stairway that led to the top of the building or emergency stairs that led down? There are stairs that lead detected with the security cameras. emergency stairs and you could access them without being detected by cameras was the trash collected

tom brennan and was the dumpster searched tom brennan that serviced the apartment and the trash chute so the trash in the apartment the trash chute and the outside dumpster? Was his, the fiance's car and trunk searched? Were the doorknobs to the access, the emergency stairway printed? And was the shower recently used? Do we know any of those answers? None of that was done by the police that evening, that night. So bottom line to that, Daryl Cohen, you and to go down the emergency stairwell, to dump bloody clothing or whatever the case may be, evidence in a dumpster or in a car trunk. And it was never searched. Would you agree that's possible? I absolutely agree. But I also have questions. It was never searched. Would you agree that's possible?

I absolutely agree, but I also have questions. These other access points, did they require a fob? Did they require a key? I know they were not under camera surveillance, but could someone have entered because it was open? And the other part, of course, is that when the perp if there was one and i'm very concerned with the stab wound to the head which brings up another question to the brain was joe was that instantaneous when the stab wound went to the brain when she could no longer you know what i'm not an md i'm a jd but i can you this. When you get a stab to the brain, it's instant, Daryl.

Okay, well. I mean, really. No offense, but where did you go to law school? Medical school in Georgia. Please don't say Mercer or NYU. Nancy, I got to say, you know, in reference to what Daryl's comment is, and this is something that's kind of troubling for me. Please put it in a nutshell.

Okay, All right. She had an insult to her spinal cord that was examined by the neuropathologist. There's no indication in the autopsy report that, and forgive me, parents, that they took her brain and sent it to a neurologist, a neuropath, to examine the brain. It's the forensic pathologist that is making the assessment on the brain. Why not take the extra step and include the spinal cord as well as the brain? Because right now I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing it in any of the reports that I've read. And that, again, is troubling to me as someone that looks at cases involving death. Exactly.

You know, I said I wasn't an M.D., but we actually have an M.D. on the panel, Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist. You have to be an M.D. before you become a psychiatrist. That's right. Dr. Angie, I just find it really hard to believe that you could take a knife wound to the brain and it not be instant, and you still have the wherewithal to plunge a knife into your chest.

That is total BS. It is total BS, Nancy. You can't do it. And also, to do something like that to yourself, you would have, typically when women do things like that to themselves, like if women kill themselves, they have such a hatred for themselves okay and they almost they would almost dissociate and do this but there is no way that after stabbing yourself in the brain

that you could pull the knife out and stab yourself again. It's ridiculous. Yeah. Ridiculous. I want to, again, try to get back to the layout of the apartment. Sandy Greenberg told me it was a sixth floor. Then we went down the rabbit hole of the emergency exit stairwell. Was there a balcony, Sandy? No.

You could open up the window. I don't actually remember, but it looks like a faux balcony. But you couldn't really go out. Those little attachment things, but you can't really go out there. So there's no other exit. There's no other way down except the elevator and the emergency stairwell. There's no sign of an intruder. But again, I want to go over very carefully, Tom Brennan, the condition of that lock, the lock that was locked from the inside. and the fiancé said he couldn't get in

because she allegedly had locked it on the inside. Did you ever get to see, or were there photos taken of the lock to show it had been splintered open when the fiancé says he broke the door down? When I first got involved, I did go through the over-the-scene photographs, and there are very good photographs of the condition of this sliding bar lock, okay? And if you take a look at it, and I have been trained in lock picking. I did surreptitious entries when I was with law enforcement, so I'm very familiar with locks. If you take a look at the lock, the one piece is mounted on the door. The other piece is mounted on the door down.

The piece mounted on the door is mounted with four screws. The door is a particle board door. So there's damage to that piece. And there is one screw missing and there are pieces of the particle board door that should be on the floor well if you take a look at the photographs that screw is not that missing is not visible that fell out and the that wood particles that came from as a result of damaging that that mounting are not there either the lock on the door the fiance said precluded him from getting in he had to break the door down part of it was still on still attached it had four screws one screw was missing and never found as if it had been unscrewed right

not broken down the screw went flying it was missing right and the particles from breaking the door down were not on the floor according to these photos very curious very curious um another thing in the home was the home ransacked in any way tom brennan no No, not at all. Not at all. She was in the kitchen with her sitting up in the kitchen floor with her back as if she were leaning against one of the counters. What had she been doing prior to her death, Josh Greenberg? I believe she was cutting up fruit and making fruit salad so this is a woman who speaks to her mom that day everything's fine she's preparing for her wedding she leaves school early she calls all the parents your children are coming home early get ready she comes home she starts making she fills

up her gas tank so she won't go empty the next day, which I find highly significant. If I were going to kill myself, the last thing I'd worry about was having an empty tank in the car. Last thing. And then starts making a fruit salad. And somewhere in chopping the apples and the oranges and the bananas, she decides to kill herself. It's all wrong, Dr. Angela Arnold. You're the shrink. I'm a lawyer.

But I can tell you, that's not right. No, it's not, Nancy. And that's why we do study patterns of behavior. And, you know, typically also when somebody's going to kill themselves, they they they sort of start telling people goodbye. They give things away. Their mood changes a little bit. And they're very and they're very overcome with a with a good feeling about getting out of their pain. There's been no indication that this woman was in any pain. What pain? Like their psychiatric pain. There's no indication that she this woman was in any pain. What pain? Like there's psychiatric pain.

There's no indication that she was in any kind of pain. The woman had just sent out her save the dates. And I completely agree with you. Who fills up their car with gas prior to committing suicide? Angela, this is Daryl. Is it unusual for someone to instantaneously decide I'm going to commit suicide, I'm chopping apples, I'm chopping all the fruit, and then, oh my God, I can't handle this anymore, and I'm done? Yes, that is completely unusual. People that, typically people that commit suicide have thought about it for a very long time.

As long as we... And they are so depressed that finally they start feeling a little bit better and they have the energy to commit suicide. And it puts them out of their misery. 20 stab wounds, 10 to the back of the neck, 1 to the scalp,

8 to her chest, a horrible slash across her abdomen, the knife still lodged in her chest. I've never heard anything like it. And her parents, Sandy and Josh Greenberg, insist there is no way she would have committed suicide. What about it, Josh? Things were not totally right with ellen uh she wanted to come home which is very unusual if you send out say the date cards and you're happy and you're

going to have a wedding so at the time i was very concerned about ellen because i didn't know what was going on but i was also being a father i didn't want her to walk away from a very good job. So Ellen and I made a deal that I would hire, Sandy and I would hire a psychiatrist, Ellen Berman. Very well known, very excellent credentials for Ellen to talk to. And if she said Ellen could come home, she could. Dr. Berman, in her notes, specifically says, not suicidal. We had a forensic psychologist look at Dr. Berman's notes. The diagnosis was adjustment disorder with anxiety. Anxiety is the type of thing, when you're on a Pennsylvania turnpike and a big truck comes alongside you, you feel anxious.

You don't feel suicidal, but you're anxious. Your heart beats faster and you're not so happy. Ellen was not suicidal. By an expert, not by me. Tell me about Ellen's funeral, Sandy. Oh, boy. funeral sandy oh boy um well we just it was you know obviously there was lots of snow so we had it in our synagogue rather than the chapel at the um cemetery and it was filled to capacity people were standing around all the margins of the funeral and um josh spoke and i

i don't know how i got through it but i did somehow a lot of what's happening immediately after Ellen's death for both of us was a blank. We just didn't know what was going on. I did speak. I managed to come up with the concept

that if we all closed our eyes, Ellen would be all around us in our minds, and that's how we should remember Ellen. It was also an important announcement I made that day. That's when the medical examiner said this was a homicide, not a suicide.

How I found that out was by people telling me it. The medical examiner never called me. The Philadelphia police never spoke to me. And that's the announcement I made. I can't tell you any more about the eulogy I made, except to think of Ellen will always be around us in spirit. And if you read some of the writings by her students and parents of the students in the memorialization book

or whatever you call it, a funeral home, they think of Ellen, and some of them even have done that years after her death, her homicide. Did the fiancé come to the funeral? Yes. Yes. Did he speak? No. Yes. Did he speak?

No. What was his demeanor? His parents were holding him up, and he was, you know, distraught. We had people who suspected that they didn't like his behavior, were very sympathetic to us. That's all I can say. But there was a show going on why did you say that but the room was filled he couldn't speak his father had to hold up a man as opposed

to somebody who was a future husband who's just had lost his fiancee to a brutal suicide or whatever and he couldn't speak he couldn't he couldn't bring himself to what I would say to be a man and show how much he cared. Ellen Greenberg loses her life at age 27, and still no justice. Nancy Grace, Killers Amongst Us. Goodbye, friend.