Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Killers Amongst US: Bride sends out 'Save-the-Dates,' found stabbed 20 times, RULED SUICIDE! (episode 4)

Episode Date: February 24, 2021

Teacher and bride-to-be Ellen Greenberg is found inside a locked apartment stabbed 20 times, including the back of the neck. Her body is discovered by her fiancé after he returns from a workout to find the apartment door locked from the inside. The investigation turns away from the scene and toward the evidence. What do searches of Ellen's computer show? What could convince a medical examiner to change a death ruling, and how does missing work from a prominent pathologist fit in? Joining Nancy Grace today: Sandee Greenberg - Mother Josh Greenberg - Father Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney, Fulton County, Georgia, Defense Attorney  Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta Ga www.angelaarnoldmd.com  Tom Brennan - Private Investigator for the Greenbergs Stephanie Farr - Reporter, Philadelphia Inquirer, Twitter: @FarFarrAway Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. Welcome back to Killers Amongst Us, a production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. On the elevator, on the stairs, in and out the front door of the apartment complex. Who would know there is a killer amongst us? What happened to 27-year-old Ellen Greenberg? Her parents demanding answers. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Killers Amongst Us. Thank you for being with us with me. Stephanie Farr, investigative reporter, Philadelphia Inquirer. You can find her at Twitter at Farr, F-A-R-R, away. Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet,

star of a brand new hit series on True Crime Network, Poisonous Liaisons. Tom Brennan, private investigator working with the Greenbergs for justice. Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor, now defense attorney, Daryl Cohen. You can find him at Cohen, Cooper, Estep, and Allen Law Firm.

And special guest, Josh Greenberg, Ellen's father, and Sandy Greenberg, her loving mother. You can also find both of them at facebook.com slash justice for Ellen 2019. Repeat justice for Ellen 2019.

Stephanie, for I still, and all the homicides I've worked and investigated, I've never seen this many stab wounds on a person, including on the back of the neck, deemed a suicide. And I actually tried a case where the death was first deemed a suicide. But based on blood spatter and computer searches, that theory was disproved and there was a guilty verdict. So I'm very curious about how the case was first ruled a suicide and procedurally what happened after that? Yeah. So according to my conversations with police, when they get to the scene that night,

they carry it as a suicide for the reasons that we've mentioned before, the lack of defensive wounds, the locks, the fact that the fiance stayed at the scene. It was only the next day at the medical examiner's autopsy report that the case was ruled a homicide when he discovered all 20 of the stab wounds that Ellen had suffered. At that point, police had already cleared the scene and left the apartment. People had been in and out of the apartment. And so they had to scramble. The homicide unit now had to scramble to start investigating this case again as a homicide. So wait a minute. Let me understand, Stephanie. So the scene had been contaminated at that point. People had been in and out, correct?

Correct. According to my conversation with the building manager, yes, people had been in and out of the apartment after police left it. Guys, take a listen to our friend Amanda Duarte at Accident, Suicide, or Murder. An autopsy was performed the day after Ellen died. At autopsy, 10 stab wounds to the back of the victim's neck were discovered. The autopsy revealed approximately 19 stab wounds

and one cut wound. The decedent had multiple wounds to the front of her body as well as to the back of her neck. She had approximately 10 stab wounds to the back of her body as well as to the back of her neck. She had approximately 10 stab wounds to the back aspect of her neck. It's difficult to inflict those type of wounds on yourself. The examination also revealed that Ellen had multiple bruises over parts of her body. What caused the bruising? Some of them were relatively new. Some were a little bit older. She could have engaged in some contact sport. She could have bumped into certain things.

It could be done from a blow of a fist. Contact sports? Wait a minute. Sandy, I believe I recall you, Josh, telling me she played softball earlier in her life. But what contact sport would that have been at age 27 there was no contact sports it was the middle of winter just ridiculous contact sports guys also take a listen to our friend Jan Carabello at CBS3 Philly she was stabbed 20 times half of the wounds to the back of her neck. You talk to

any reasonable person and they all say, what the hell is going on? Tom Brennan logged 25 years with the Pennsylvania State Police and worked at the FBI's behavioral science unit in Quantico, Virginia. Now retired, he has worked nearly seven years pro bono with the Greenbergs investigating Ellen's death. I said this is a homicide. But the medical examiner's report says there was no sign of a struggle. Nothing was obviously missing or disturbed. Only Ellen's DNA was found on the knife in her chest, and Ellen had no defense injuries to her hands or forearms. Still, Brennan says none of that proves this was suicide. Didn't they ever hear a blitz

where a victim doesn't get the opportunity to defend themselves? Or if you had your back toward the intruder and you're standing at the sink slicing up fruit, you never would know what hit you. But in light of now 20 stab wounds, take a listen to this. When the autopsy was over, the medical examiner issued a ruling that directly contradicted the initial findings of police investigators. The medical examiner believed it was a homicide. One of the most striking things was the fact that a knife was still embedded in this young woman's chest. There is a significant degree of force probably needed to inflict that type of wound. That certainly is indicative of a homicide.

The Emmy's homicide ruling officially turned Ellen's case into a murder investigation as the Greenbergs prepared to bury their only child. So Stephanie Farr with me from the Philadelphia Inquirer. Stephanie, at first it was deemed a suicide because cops apparently didn't realize the number of stab wounds that Ellen sustained. But then, after the autopsy, the medical examiner declared it was a homicide? Right, so after the medical examiner declares it a homicide, police have to then go back and open a homicide investigation on the case. In my 13 year career in Philadelphia, this is the only instance where I have seen that police actually publicly went against the findings of the medical examiner's office. So the medical examiner's office releases their homicide findings. And on January 29th, by January 29th, police are telling the media in Philadelphia that despite the homicide ruling, authorities were leaning towards suicide in Ellen's case and looking into, quote,

any mental issues she might have had. I don't understand how a police officer, and I've been in law enforcement myself as a prosecutor, but I certainly know my limitations. How would a cop better know COD than a medical examiner? They would not, to my understanding, and, you know, there was a back and forth, it seems, between the medical examiner's office and the police department for some time before the medical examiner's office made the rare decision to flip-flop its ruling and label Ellen's case a suicide instead of a homicide. Did the medical examiner's office give any reason for reversing their decision it was a homicide? No, the medical examiner's office gave no public reasoning to the press here in Philadelphia and to the best of my knowledge at the time gave no reasoning to her family either.

And police didn't explain to us either. And at the time in Philadelphia, all we knew were that there was multiple stab wounds. We did not know the nature and extent of the wounds that Ellen had suffered that day. To Ellen's dad, Josh Greenberg. Josh, I just... At her funeral there at the synagogue, you divulge, this is no longer deemed a suicide, this is a homicide.

What was the look on the fiancé's face when that came out? This is no longer deemed a suicide. This is a homicide. What was the look on the fiance's face when that came out? Not stunned. Let me point out yet again, no one has been named a POI, person of interest, much less a suspect in this case. I would like to go back for a second, Nancy, if we could. Tom Brennan, in his investigation, spoke to the medical examiner about this event of the change. I'd like Tom to explain the conversation he had with the ME. Oh, yes, please do, Tom. When I first got involved in the investigation, one of the first things I wanted to do was speak with the pathologist that performed the autopsy, Dr. Osborne, Marlon Osborne. I called the medical examiner's office, the director, Dr. Sam Galino,

and Dr. Sam Galino stated that he would not permit me to interview Dr. Osborne. But over time, I was persistent, and over time, once I got Dr. Ross involved, Dr. Galino relented and sent me an email and said that, well, since Dr. Ross and Dr. Osborne are medical professionals, he would permit a conference call to occur. So we had a conference call, and we hit that conference call to a place in the Dauphin County Coroner's Office. The president was Dr. Ross, the Dauphin County Coroner, Graham Hetrick, and myself.

Dr. Ross asked Dr. Osborne a number of questions. There was a lot of back and forth. Then I began asking Dr. Osborne some questions. My last question to him was, tell me why you would change the cause and manner of death from homicide to suicide. And he said, well, I did that at the insistence of the police because the police said there was a lack of defense wounds. And I said, did any of those police officers have a degree in pathology? And with that, the call ended. So that call was witnessed by Dr. Ross in the Dauphin County Coroner, Graham Hetrick.

What about it, Joe Scott? I hear you breaking in. Go. Yeah, I don't even know where to begin with this. I think the biggest question I would have is that we've heard all about the cops at the scene. All right? I want to know what representatives from the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office were physically at the scene. It's my understanding that they employ their own investigators. Did anybody go there and do an assessment?

Because let me tell you what happened. I know what the conversation was. The next day after the autopsy, there was a phone call that was made to the PD. And there was a conversation among the detectives that started with the words, oh, shit, because they realized at that moment in time that they had screwed up at the scene. I agree with what Tom is saying here relative to, you know, who are they to make a determination as to whether or not something is suicide or homicide. And let me tell you one more thing, if you like that bit. When you tell police officers at a scene,

whoever made this grand diagnosis at the scene, when you tell them at that moment in time that this is a suicide and you make that proclamation at the scene, guess what you see, Nancy? Elbows and tail holes headed for the door because at that point, their interest completely diminishes, completely diminishes. So the steps that we normally take at a crime scene and examining bodies and relative to evidence and bloodstaining and all that stuff, it goes out the door. So yeah, they're having to backtrack now. And this is what happened. I can tell you this is this is where the proverbial, you know, chain got all kinked up at this point.

There's one word to describe it. It comes down to laziness. They're covering their rear ends on this based on everything I've heard. And there's also a particular aspect of the medical examiner findings, in addition to everything else, if you can imagine it, that has me very puzzled. Take a listen to our friend Amanda Duarte. When I was assigned to the homicide unit in the DA's office, I was given the blessing to officially look into this file and review it. When examining the crime scene photos, several things struck the prosecutor as

odd. She's seated on the kitchen floor. Most of her upper body is leaning up against the cabinetry. Alongside of one of her nostrils, there was a straight line of blood that ran from the nostril to the back of the ear. There was no drag marks. There was no dripping. And so it was a straight line of blood that ran from the nostril to the back of the ear. There was no drag marks. There was no dripping. And so it was a straight line. So if you're in a seated upright position and there's blood running horizontally, it's impossible. That would have been physically impossible for blood to run horizontally from the nose to the ear.

Absolutely impossible. So let me understand what's happening now. So the cops say it's a suicide because they don't know there are 20 plus stab wounds. They say there's no defensive wounds even though the leg and the arm on the right side are covered with stab wounds signifying to me she may have curled up in a ball and continued to be stabbed. That's the sort of defensive wound you get on your legs and arms on one side because you're lying on the other side. The next day, when all of this comes out, it is then ruled a homicide, but under intense pressure, the medical examiner turns, flips, and makes it a suicide. Okay, Stephanie Farr, Philadelphia Inquirer, what happened then? Once the case was ruled a homicide by the medical examiner's office, the Philadelphia Police Department then has to come back and start an

investigation pretty much anew. According to my understanding, I will just add that I believe that Ellen's body from my conversations with the building manager was actually left in that apartment till three or four in the morning. She actually had to call police to come and take Ellen's body to the medical examiner's office. So police, after the medical examiner's office cord by a very famous neuropathologist here in Philadelphia, Dr. Lucy Rourke Adams. In that report, there's only a single line of that report mentioned in Ellen's spinal autopsy report. And it just says, neuropathologist, Dr. Lucyy and then they spell her name wrong examined the spinal cord and concluded there's no defect to the spinal cord but when i contacted

dr rourke adams about this report she said that she did not remember doing it um and uh that if there was no reporter bill for her services which guy D'Andrea could never find in his looking through the case files, then she would conclude that she may have not done that. So that's a huge question remaining, is that there supposedly was this neuropathology report done on this section of Ellen's spinal cord to determine whether the knife stabbed it and would have made her made it impossible for her to move but nobody has ever seen that report there is no bill for that report and the person who supposedly conducted that report did not remember doing that examination well speaking of the spinal

cord take a listen to our friend amanda duarte and accident suicide or murder guy d'andrea discovered that a portion of Ellen's spinal cord was still at the M.E.'s office. When I learned that they actually kept a piece of Ellen's spinal column, I said, that should be examined. It was around the time that I knew I would be leaving the district attorney's office.

Once I leave, I have no more official capacity over this file. D'Andrea contacted tom brennan to let him know about the specimen spinal column exists it's at the medical examiner's office i have spoken to the chief medical examiner who has given a blessing to bring someone in i contact the medical examiner's office in philadelphia get permission to have my neural forensic pathologist come in and examine the specimen. And I didn't hear anything for quite some time.

It was months. Tom Brennan reached back out to me and said, we have the findings. You have two scenarios. Spinal column unpierced, suicide. Spinal column pierced, murder. Findings were when the knife entered, it severed the spinal cord. Well, there's really no question, but yet there is more evidence. Listen. The Greenberg's expert discovered something else from the autopsy photos. Not only did Ellen sustain multiple bruises over her body,

but there were also other suspicious markings. A neuroforensic pathologist found what appears to be a scratch on the neck and finger marks, and there was a hemorrhage found near the throat. Neuroforensic pathologist said that's an indication of manual strangulation. We know that Ellen had extensive bruises all over her body. We don't know how they occurred and we frankly can't explain them because she was not involved in physical sports and there were no other activities that we can think of that she was involved in that could attribute

or cause those kind of injuries. I want to know why there was bruising in various stages of healing. That is a question I have as a mother. Why was my daughter's body bruised? To you, Tom Brennan, private investigator on the Greenberg case, after it was flipped and determined to be a suicide. What happened next? That's when, you know, I informed the Greenbergs that because of all the pushback we were getting, you know, from a political standpoint, I said there are some, you know,

we have to get to the media and get this out because with the media, that's stronger than a bullet. So that's when I contacted several journalists who were involved initially in doing stories, and I contacted Stephanie. And Stephanie was the only one that returned my call. And that's when Stephanie, I provided Stephanie with all the information that I had. She went out and spent a little over a year validating everything that I gave her. And that's when she published her, in the meantime, we were doing the examinations with the examinations were being conducted by Dr. Ross. I had befriended Guy D'Andrea in the district attorney's office and Guy got permission to review the file. And then I subsequently, I asked the Greenbergs to, there was a change in district attorneys.

Mr. Larry Krasnick. Okay, you know what? I'm getting this all lost in the sauce. So, first suicide, then homicide, then suicide. Okay. In a nutshell, what happened next? Did it go to a higher arbiter? Did the attorney general look at the state AG?

What happened next? I got in touch with the district attorney's office, Mr. Krasner, and he wouldn't speak to me, so I had the Greenbergs, since Mr. Krasner was their first attorney initially when he had his civil practice. I had them ask for their personal file. And they contacted him and asked for their personal file. And the response that they got was, I gave it to you, which is not true.

Then I asked them to file a complaint with the state disciplinary board, which they did. The state disciplinary board came back and said, Mr. Krasner said he gave it to you. At that time, Mr. Krasner recused himself and forwarded the file to the state attorney general's office, the DA's file. And the attorney general's office got involved. Following that for a year or approximately a year, we heard nothing. Right prior to Stephanie publishing her article, getting her article published, she contacted the Attorney General's office. Stephanie Farr from the Philadelphia Inquirer leading the charge to find the truth alerted the media. Take a listen to what Matt Petrillo with CBS3 Philly has to say. Their attorney is using a technology

called photogrammetry to prove the case is a homicide. Greenberg's legal team recreated her anatomical and physiological attributes, showing it would be impossible for Greenberg to stab herself in the back of her head multiple times.

One of the wounds was so deep it would have paralyzed her. Which means she could not have completed the remaining wounds. How powerful is this evidence? I think it's so powerful that it's clear to me that there's a murderer walking among us or murderers and that is frightening from my vantage point. And the attorney also tells us that photogrammetry is not the only evidence that points to Ellen Greenberg's death as a homicide. Stephanie Farr, Philadelphia Inquirer, what happened then? So early on in my investigation, I contacted the attorney general's office and told them that I was looking into this story.

They told me they were doing their own investigation, but I never heard from them about any findings. So right before my article was published, I reached back out to them to see where their investigation stood. And according to the spokesman for the AG's office, the Attorney General's office, they provided me a statement that said their office had done a thorough investigation into the case and that a search history from Ellen's computer and records from her cell phone indicated that she had, you know, done searches on her computer for terms related to suicide. Now that information directly contradicts information in the medical examiner's report from 2011 that said that investigators reviewed her computer and found nothing regarding searches for suicide or anything to indicate she had committed suicide. But then later, you learn the AG says, oh, no, no, no, we found evidence searches of suicide.

Exactly, exactly. And they could not explain to me the discrepancy there. You know, when I asked about it, you know, why does the report from 2011 indicate that, you know, her computers were searched and nothing was found, while your report seven years later, seven, eight years later, says that things were found. And according to the spokesman for the attorney general's office, he said, we cannot say if anyone, police or prosecutor ever looked at computers, even though it's indicated in the reports from 2011 that they did. Back to the Greenbergs, Josh, her father joining us along with her mom, Sandy. Josh, isn't it true that you guys hired your own expert

who found nothing on her computer relating to death or suicide? That is true. Since the attorney general was saying his thorough investigation and putting such an emphasis on this, the FBI had already told the Philadelphia police they found nothing. We hired a forensic computer expert, and they found nothing. They found nothing that Ellen had looked up suicide or had a fetish or interest in suicide, either non-hurting or hurting. So we really feel that the whole thing the Attorney General did was bogus.

But I don't understand their motivation. And isn't it true you asked and asked and asked to see the OAG, Office of Attorney General's, report that they did the computer forensic search and you couldn't get it, couldn't get it, couldn't get it. They still haven't produced it to this day. At the time we approached the Attorney General, we had a former Attorney General for the Commonwealth working with us. We offered the Attorney General's office all of our information, our mountain of evidence but i think something that i'd like tom to talk about

is a classic pivotal meeting that he had with two former philadelphia district attorney assistant district attorneys who now worked for the attorney general tom um when i when i uh learned of these um findings on the searches we arranged for a meeting with the attorney general's office and it's it's this is almost comical uh the same individuals who were in the da's office at the time this this incident occurred are the same individuals who are now in the Attorney General's office, and supposedly conducted this thorough investigation of theirs. Okay, but in the course of things,

I had a meeting with the supervising attorney of the Criminal Investigation Division for the Attorney General's office, and the Attorney General's Chief of Staff. And in the course of that meeting, they mentioned their finding, and I asked them, when was the test performed? They couldn't reply. I asked them, who did it?

Could they identify the forensic analyst for the FBI that did it no wrote no response I asked them several questions and I didn't get a response for any of my any of my questions they asked me they said why are you asking me these questions and I said well I know where those computers have been since September of 05. So when in the hell did you people conduct this examination? And they, no response. Then two days later, the former attorney general that was working with us received a call from the chief of staff, and she said that she told the attorney general, the former attorney general,

that she informed the senior attorney general that was in charge of the investigation to supply us with a copy of their report. To date, we still haven't gotten a copy of that report. Isn't it true, as a matter of fact, your forensic analysis, your expert forensic analysis, and the FBI analysis both refute the Attorney General's conclusion regarding searches on Ellen's computer? Had any obsession with death or suicide leading up to her death. Both your independent expert and the FBI analysis are diametrically opposed to the

Attorney General's analysis. Is that correct, Tom Brennan? That's correct. That is correct. That is correct. Let me ask you, Sandy and Josh, the idea of pursuing a lawsuit over the medical examiner's suicide ruling. A Philadelphia judge ruled that Ellen's family, with us today, Josh and Sandy can move forward with a lawsuit against the medical examiner's office to remove the suicide ruling as her official cause of death. What led you to that lawsuit, Josh Greenberg? Justice for Ellen. We want the truth. I don't know. That's the only way I can answer your question. I'm nancy it's more involved i apologize but this makes no sense this is total bs there are a number of simple things i know we talked a lot about technology and professional uh things but

just some simple things out there that we didn't even mention. The fact that our forensic pathologist found that there were two types of knife wounds, a smooth and a serrated. The fact that three years, excuse me, three months after the case was closed, somebody in the police department sent the photos to another forensic pathologist in Florida, and she couldn't believe that they had said this was a suicide. And Tom, just by happenstance, serendipity, happened to be talking to her, and she told the story. I don't know what else. There are other things.

The note in the autopsy by Dr. Rourke is BS. Dr. Rourke never saw that. It's a fraudulent paragraph. We met with the medical examiner, and we questioned him. Does Dr. Rourke, the day before, send in a bill and a report on a case? Yes. Day after, yes, she sent it. Dr. Rourke has noted, and I mean this in the strictest and nicest way I can put it, that if you ask Dr. Rourke what time it is, it's going to be part of an itemized bill she's going to give you.

Dr. Rourke bills very strictly, but it comes to the technical part of this investigation, the fiancé's laptop, the victim's laptop, personal laptop, and her work laptop and her cell phone were removed by a prominent attorney uncle the morning of the 27th of January when the autopsy was being performed. The uncle and his son entered the apartment with the guise of, we have to get a suit for the fiancé for the funeral. But at that time, they removed all of those items. So in a court of law, anything and the police never got access to those items until the 29th. So as far as the chain of evidence is concerned, would the court accept anything that came off those items? Yeah, and that's what the attorney general is trying to use as rationale. Well, you know what?

You can contest the chain of custody, but that does not necessarily indicate that item will be thrown out of evidence. That's right, Darrell. I mean, you can contest the chain. Oh, absolutely. But that doesn't mean that that contest is going to be successful. Absolutely. You can complain. But what we really need is what the forensic evidence says that was in the computer.

Whether they physically removed the computer is one thing. Whether or not they were able to bleach the items in the computer, that is clearly another. Well, I have a question to Ellen's mom, Sandy. The other side keeps throwing up a text, a particular text that they say Ellen sent to you, quote, I'm starting the med. I know you don't understand, but I can't keep living with feeling this way. Did you get a text like that?

I suppose I did. Did anybody ever think she meant living in that relationship? I thought it was. I can't keep on like this. I thought it was in reference to how she felt on the medication. Ah, I see what you mean. Or not taking the medication. I just feel that that aside that that text that could be construed in so many different ways i thought it meant that i can't take the relationship anymore but it could be that aside that has nothing to do with the physical aspect of the autopsy and what the findings were I could write a text like that in a moment of anger about my husband. I can't keep living like this.

And then the house burns down. But that doesn't mean I struck the match, does it? Because I wrote that text. I think that's Josh. Go ahead. That's it, Nancy. If Ellen had put sandwich boards on and walked around Rittenhouse Square saying what this says was, and then you go look at the crime scene, it's incongruent that she committed suicide.

Has nothing to do with it. So what, if anything, can be done now, Josh, outside the lawsuit that you are bringing in, what is the status of the lawsuit? Well, I believe we have a court date. I believe Philadelphia has tried to prevent us from having a court date, and they were turned down. I believe we are trying to depose witnesses like the medical examiner who makes an appointment and then cancels appointments saying he has things to do. I believe we're being stonewalled like we have for 10 years.

January 26th, I'm bad with dates. January 26th, 2011. Was 10 years after Ellen's death. And aside from time, there's been emotional effort, immense financial effort to bring the truth out. We're not just doing this for Ellen. Yes, Ellen, justice for Ellen. But there are other families, other people who have suffered this type of treatment, I'm going to call it, from political officials. We don't know the why, but we know that we have a mountain of evidence and we know that a mountain, millions of people in this world have reviewed this case

as not experts necessarily, and don't believe this was a suicide. So we don't know why and we don't know how, but they are trying to stonewall us. And we're not going to let that happen. Words of my wife, we're not going anywhere. Oh, how I want justice. And again, let me point out that no one has been named a POI, person of interest, much less a suspect in this case. No one.

We wait as justice unfolds, and I guarantee you when that case goes to trial, I'm going to be on the front row by God. Nancy Grace, Killers Amongst Us, signing off. Goodbye, friend.