Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Killers Amongst Us: Jodi Arias Stabs Naked Lover Dead In Shower (episode 2)

Episode Date: April 9, 2021

We know the ending. Jodi Arias stabs her boyfriend, Travis Alexander, 28 times, shoots him and leaves him to die in a shower. How did it happened? How did a whirlwind romance end in murder? The couple meet in Las Vegas at a job related seminar. After just a few hours, Travis Alexander tells friends he's found the woman he wants to marry. As the relationship develops, friends begin to take notice of odd behavior, but warnings to the enamoured Alexander went unheeded. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. Welcome back to Killers Amongst Us, a production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. You know, every day most of us report to work and we pass our friends and colleagues in the hall. We don't think anything of it. How many times have you been set up on a blind date? How many times have you met somebody? You know, I hear of it all the time. We met on an airplane. We met on a bus. We met when I was on vacation. And you just know immediately that there is a real connection between you. Well, you never know who you're meeting at the swimming pool

or on the elevator or in the hotel lobby. I'm Nancy Grace, and who would ever imagine that there are killers amongst us that seemingly blend into our everyday life, and sometimes more so. We're talking about Travis Alexander and when he meets a bombshell Jodi Arias. The relationship is hot and heavy, but take a listen to our friends at ABC 2020. Travis and Jodi have been dating for a couple of months when his friends started noticing there's something off with Jodi have been dating for a couple of months when his friends started noticing

there's something off with Jodi, something not quite right. For example, one night we're all in the hot tub. There's four of us, you know? This is a time to chat and hang out. Well, Jodi is, like, climbing on Travis while we're trying to have this conversation. She was all over him.

I mean, like, eighth graders whose parents are out of town, like, straddling his lap and sucking on his neck, and Travis just kept pushing her off. And he's like, Jodi, like, get off me. Like, what are you doing? And I look at Chris, I'm like, does she not realize we're sitting here? That was one of those nights where we're like,

she's weird, you know? Like, this is weird. How many times do your friends have to tell you that was one of those nights where we're like, she's weird. You know, this is weird. How many times do your friends have to tell you he, she is not the right one for you, but it didn't sink in with me, an all-star panel. First of all, Alexis Tereschuk, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Also with LeadStories.com. And you can find her on Twitter at Swimmy2009.

Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University. Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. And star of a brand new series, a hit series on True Crime Network. Poisonous Liaisons. With me, death investigator, Joe Scott Morgan. Karen Stark, renowned psychologist, joining us out of Manhattan. And you can find her at karenstark.com. That's Karen with a C. And special guest joining me, the lawyer for Jodi

Arias, renowned legal commentator, cast member, believe it or not, on Radical Body Transformation season three coming out on Amazon Prime. Author as well, how does this guy have time for all this? Trapped with Miss Arias, kirknermy.com or at Nermy Unchained. Now, you know, I'm just a trial lawyer, not a shrink. So I'm not going to try to read anything into Nermy Unchained right now. I think that's something you and I should explore off microphone, Kirk Nermy.chained right now. I think that's something you and I should explore off microphone, Kirk Nermy. But welcome, everybody. I'm just looking at this case. And, you know, I still have, believe it or not, with me, and I see it, I guess, every other day, a button with Travis Alexander's face on it that his family gave me. I mean, so young, so handsome, so smart, so full of, I don't know, full of life is the only way I can think of to put it.

This guy who comes from very humble beginnings with drug-addicted parents. He somehow gets involved in the Mormon church with his grandparents and turns his life around. And then you look at Jodi Arias. She's beautiful. She's articulate. She's funny. She's an aspiring photographer. They meet at work. Everything clicks.

But what is this, Karen Stark, this crawling all over him? Why does a grown woman do that with somebody she's dating? She's possessive, Nancy, and she absolutely has to have that kind of intensity in her relationships. It's not that she really feels anything, but she needs to control. She needs to be over him and make sure that he's doing the things that show that he's attached to her and only to her. You know, that's interesting because you do see that kind of behavior

in like teen girls, the way the friends described it as an eighth grader whose parents were away for the weekend. Note to self, Jackie, do not go away and leave the twins alone in the house while they're in the eighth grade. But when a grown woman is acting that way, it's bizarre on just a date

and around his friends. But take a listen to our Cut 12. This is Mary Ellen Resendez at ABC 15. If any friend of Travis's, we would welcome. Travis Alexander called Brent and Dr. Hyatt and their family his Arizona family. He ate dinners with them often and on at least two occasions brought Jody Arias with him. She was just very introverted. I didn't think that she was the caliber, the quality that he was. But on the other hand, I felt like whoever he did,

you know, stay with, they would grow. Arias was not a hit with the Hyatts and in many ways seemed the exact opposite of the social and outgoing Travis Alexander they knew. I didn't really see much of a future in it. I don't really know that he did either. But apparently, Travis Alexander thought there was. So what does that mean, Karen Stark, New York psychologist, that she, in a group, would be introverted? Well, I think that she was probably in a situation where she didn't feel as powerful as she might in a one-to-one situation. This is a very manipulative, really, really good at attaching herself, as you mentioned, to somebody.

But she's in a bigger situation now where, you know, Travis is well-known and comfortable. And so she's going to be, after all, let's be clear about this. She knows everything that she's doing and she knows who she is. So better to keep who she is to herself in a situation like that than allow anyone to know her. You know, you're giving her a lot of credit for thinking this through. I think it's more of an instinct. Guys, in addition to Alexis Tereschuk, Joseph Scott Morgan, Karen Stark, and Kirk Nermey, now joining me a new and

very critical guest today. A longtime friend of both Travis Alexander and Jody Arias, the author of Our Friend Travis, Christopher Hughes joining us. Chris, thanks for being with us. Hey, you're welcome.

How does it hit you, Chris, to hear us talking about the beginnings of the relationship between Arias and Travis when you look back on it? Well, it's surreal. I mean, it's, you know, things like this aren't supposed to happen in your life, but it happened in my life. And, you know, in some ways it feels like a bad movie that I watched. You know, it's been so many years now. But, you know, it wasn't a movie. It was real and it happened. You know, I look back, Chris, and I guess I need to shrink on this one, but, you know, I bet everybody on this panel may be able to relate to this.

I look back on the time when my fiancé was murdered, and I look back a lot on the time leading up to that and how happy we were together. It does kind of seem like a movie. It doesn't, it doesn't really, I can't put my finger on it. I think it's because it's so hard for me to take in. You know, I can't even to this day process everything that happened. Chris, you were around them so much. You were friends of both of them. How did you know them? I met Travis at church. I moved from Fort Worth, Texas to Riverside, California back in 2001, I think. And I was in that church a couple of weeks and the bishop asked me if I would teach a Sunday school class.

And so I volunteered to teach the class every Sunday. And I think it was my second week. Travis was the superintendent or he was over all the Sunday school teachers. And he was just hanging out of my class one day to make sure that I was staying on task and doing a good job. And, um, and I quoted from the book, how to win friends and influence people. There's a poem in there called father forgets. And I read the poem and then I ended the class and Travis walked up to me and said,

uh, father forgets from how to win friends and influence people. And I was like, Oh, you, you know, you, you read those kinds of books, you know, you read that stuff. He's like, of course. And, uh, we hit it off from that moment. And then he asked me, he was looking for ways to make additional income. And, and he asked me what i was doing and i told him a little bit about it and he decided over over the next few days that he wanted to join me and so we were inseparable from uh from that week going forward we were became best friends and business partners and we were together literally uh every day in those early days of our friendship and our business together. I know. I love that, Father Forgets. It's about a father who comes to his son's bedside, I think,

and kneels down and is talking to his son about all the things that the father thinks he may have done wrong. Like, I scolded you as you were dressing for school because you dabbed your face and you didn't do it thoroughly. At breakfast, I found fault, too. You spill things. You gulp down your food. I mean, it goes on and on and on. It's kind of, what would you say?

Let me ask you, Chris. What would you say was the point of that poem? Well, he's scolding a four-year-old for going outside in his socks without his shoes. He wants this four-year-old to act like a man and then he realizes that this little child is not a man and that it's just a child and that the father had been cruel and unkind.

And so he sneaks into his child's room when the child is still a child and asks for his forgiveness, basically saying, you know, I forget that you're just a child and will you please forgive me for being unkind and I promise I'll be nicer as we go into the future. Wow. That's really touching. I'm thinking about how that, what that may have meant to Travis since he had, let me just say, and I really hope they're listening, horrible parents and that totally neglected him and ended up with his grandparents. Thank the Lord in heaven. And you know know, Chris, I believe that poem reflects in a way the Holy Father in Travis's mind,

not really expecting us to be perfect, which is, you know, not going to happen, and loves us and accepts us the way that we are. I think that's the meaning. And with Travis's Mormon background, I wonder if he thought that too. But then where does Jodi Arias fit into Sunday school? Hey, and I'm not knocking it.

You know who Christ hung out with? Hookers, tax collectors, fishermen with no educations. You know, so I couldn't care less. I'm happy she's in Sunday school, but how did that happen? Well, Jody didn't have religion. I don't know what she was doing religiously or spiritually before she connected with Travis,

but a few months after Travis and I started working together, we went to a convention. Our company had conventions every year, big 10, 15,000 conventions. And I think we're at the MGM Grand this one year. And Travis met Jodi Arias there. She had just become an associate with the company. And she heard that there was going to be this big convention and she wanted to be successful in the company. She should probably go. And so she decided to go and Travis and Jody met there. And, you know, then they became inseparable for a long period of time.

We were just describing earlier, playing sound of how friends noticed Arius would just crawl all over him. Literally, there's just no other way to put it. And I also heard that as her relationship was described with other men. So this wasn't just about Travis. Did you witness their relationship, Chris? Yeah, I did. I mean, that was me in the soundbite. And I was sitting in a tub with Travis and my then wife Sky and it was just

really bizarre to watch and and they their relationship really began to bud and grow and develop in my house you know I mean at the time Jody was still living with a boyfriend that she had purchased a home with and she had told Travis that they were divorced but that he couldn't come to her house because that would be really awkward she lived in the in the desert palm palm desert area Palm Springs area in California Travis was living in Mesa Arizona and so he would actually drive past her house on his way to my house to rendezvous and she would come over and hang out and they would stay for days at a time. And in fact, just an interesting side note, sometimes Jody would show up without Travis and unannounced and would stay for a couple of days or longer.

And so, yeah, they would come over and they would, they were there a lot. And so we watched all of this happen. At first, I really, really liked Jodi. I thought she was great. I thought she was smart. I thought she had a great handshake. I thought she had good eye contact. She seemed to be able to talk about any, any subject that, that came up. But then as she was in my home day after day after day, then you start to see the oddities and the bizarre behavior and crawling over. I got to hear this. I got to hear the oddities and the bizarre behavior. Please tell me.

Well, so she takes an interest in the Mormon church because Travis wanted a Mormon girlfriend or a Mormon woman to be in his life. And she just was, in my opinion, she was doing everything that she could to get Travis to commit to her and to like her. For example, we're watching the UFC, you know, cage fighting basically. And Jody is watching is why, I mean, it's loud. You know, my kids are running around the house and there's people there and we're eating pizza and hanging out and the TV is really loud. And she's walking back and forth in front of the television,

reading her book of Mormon, you know, or reading her Bible. I don't know what she was reading, but she had her scriptures in her hand. And we're like, what is she, you know, like get out of the way. Like what are you doing she's walking around the house trying to show everybody how spiritual she was while we're trying to watch you know a blood sport cage fighting yeah and then um and then travis would get up oftentimes anytime travis got up to go to the bathroom to go anywhere do anything around the house jody would wait just a few seconds,

and then she would get up and follow him out of the room. And there were multiple times where we came around the corner to see what she was doing, and we caught her even on Travis's conversations. Or if he's just sitting on the toilet, you know, behind a closed door in the bathroom, she's got her ear up against the door trying to figure out what he's up to and what he's doing.

And that was from the very, very beginning. It's not like, oh, I caught my boyfriend cheating, so I got to, you know, I follow him around everywhere. Nothing like that has ever happened at this point. She's just following him around. Okay, that's totally freaky. You know, Alexis Tereszczuk, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, also with LeadStories.com. I know you're hearing Chris Hughes and Karen Stark talking.

That's, you know, when you get a hold of somebody that starts, you know, following you around and following you to the bathroom. I told you, Alexis, I read my husband's emails one time. I thought I was going to die. My eyes started to bleed. They were so boring. It was awful. I kept thinking, oh, I got to find something, just something, nothing. There was nothing. I've never done it again. I thought my head was going to blow off. If you've got to follow somebody around and listen at the bathroom door to hear if they're on the phone, then you've got the wrong person. Either they're making you insecure or you just don't mix with that person. I would hate to live a life like that, Alexis.

And she, for your example, with the emails, that's exactly something she did. She would go through Travis's email and forward them to herself. Wait, are you actually comparing me to Jodi Arias is this really happening yes you know what if you do that one more time I'm going to make you listen to Oh Holy Night that she's saying okay I always have to wait and hear the high note but but go ahead she she would dig through Travis's email she would find things that she thought she needed to. Well, it doesn't even matter what her reason is.

She would forward them to herself and delete things out of his email. She was like a stalker from the beginning. Kirk Nermy, legal commentator, renowned defense attorney, author of Trapped with Miss Arias. You know, I know you cannot divulge attorney-client privilege secrets, but how did you do it? I bet she was on you like a cheap suit. The problem was I had no choice. Remember, you know, I tried to get away from her back late in 2010 when I quit the public defender's office.

And in 2011, after months worth of litigation, I was ordered to keep the case. And I had no choice but to tell her story. I could not get away. And of course, as we know, men who try to get away from Jodi Arias don't hold up too well in her mind. No, they really don't.

Did every decision you made, was it questioned? I mean, I could see her just being totally obsessed with everything you did. Let's put it this way. The calls were frequent and repeated every day. There was an obsessive desire on her part to uh be involved in these things and tell me these things their contact was constant and and keep in mind not to make me course but this lasted for five and a half years of my representation kirk did she flirt with you don't lie well there were moments of that but it got cut off real fast i make real clear that that's

not going to fly yeah you and arias and your wife would be very happy together not i uh yeah that cuts off she knew you were married right yes and i was never there to be her friend she might have had a different impression we've heard some of the things that miss arias maybe has different relationships with people than her than are portrayed in reality. But I was not there to be her friend. I was there to be her attorney, and that was it. And that, I think, caused some consternation as well because Arias wanted a friend and someone to support her, and I was there to be her lawyer. Jessica Morgan, you have handled so many, literally thousands of cases as a forensics expert. I have noticed, and this is anecdotal, I haven't kept stats, that when there has been a love relationship or a sex relationship, as it is in this case, when that turns, I find the mode of murder to be so much more vengeful.

Like, you know, poisoning the person. Remember the death by Mercedes where the dentist's wife ran over him multiple times in a parking lot. It's just, you know, Betty Broderick. I can't forget that. I mean, the outpouring of anger and seemingly retribution makes a crime scene like no other. Yeah, you're right. It's wholesale slaughter, and it's not anecdotal, Nancy. I disagree with you. You're speaking truth here. These are facts.

These are crimes of passion. I refer to them as intimates, crimes with intimates. And so this idea that you're directing, you know, it's sufficient most of the time for somebody to take a knife and wield it maybe once or twice. And you can see this played out. I watched this over and over again. You know, Christopher Hughes, friend of Travis and Jody, author of Our Friend Travis. Chris, did the friends notice there was something wrong with the relationship? Yeah, it was kind of a freaky thing that happened.

But yeah, I mean, most people that knew Jody, well, let me put it this way. Most people that met Jody through Travis or through the business didn't like her, just instinctively or intuitively. And most of the people that didn't like her just instinctively or intuitively. And most of the, most of the people that didn't like her were women. And most of the women that didn't like her warned Travis, like, Hey, she's not right. There's something not right about her. I don't know what it is. I don't get a good feeling from her. And he hated it. And one night it happened in my own home. It was such a freaky experience. But Travis and Jody, well, I guess that comes on a little later, but Sky and Jody went in the kitchen.

Travis and I were in my office. And I get a text. My phone is on my desk face up. And Sky texted me and she said, she's driving me crazy. Get her out of here. And as soon as I saw it, Travis was standing behind me. I flipped my phone over and I started laughing because it was so awkward. And I was hoping that Travis didn't read it, but I had a feeling that he did.

And he said, what's going on? I said, what? I was giggling, just so uncomfortable. And he said, I saw that. Like, what's going on? I said, what? I was giggling, just so uncomfortable. And he said, I saw that, like, what's going on? I said, Travis, we need to talk. And he said, well, start talking. He's really upset because he liked her so much. And I said, well, let's wait till after dinner. You know, I want Skye to be there. There's things that she's observed and that I've observed, and I'd like to have a conversation with you together.

So later that night, Travis and Jody get a little spat. She goes to bed early, or at least we thought she did. And then Travis and Sky and I, the three of us were sitting on my bed in my bedroom behind a closed and locked door. And we were talking for hours and we had just gotten to kind of the, I don't know the high point of the conversation or the whole point of the conversation, trying to tell her. And I remember Sky passionately was saying, Travis, you don't understand. Like we, we think she's dangerous. And he was defending her and saying dangerous. You kidding? She wouldn't hurt a fly. You guys, She's so sweet. She's so nice. And right as he's

defending her, Skye, she has kind of a sixth sense. And she put her finger to her lips to tell us to be quiet. And then she pointed at the door and she, she left, you know, she didn't even whisper. She kind of just left. She's out there. And Travis looked mortified. He's thinking, no way. No, she's not. And Skye's, you know, nodding her head up and down saying, yes, she's out there. She's out there. And Travis, right in the middle of our conversation, he jumps off the bed and rips the door open. And there's Jodi Arias with her face to the door,

listening to our conversation at midnight upstairs on the opposite end of the house from where her bed, she had her own bedroom in her house. And it was the scariest. I mean, literally that moment was one of the, if not the scariest moment moments in my life because of her face, she had this evil and it's not 2020 hindsight. You know what I mean? Like, Oh, she was a murderer. And Oh yeah, that night was really scary. We talked about it that night. And in fact,

Travis was so embarrassed by this because he's literally defending her saying she's so nice and so sweet and so normal. It wouldn't hurt to fly while she's eavesdropping in somebody else's house at midnight outside our bedroom door and so he's embarrassed says johnny go to bed you know i'll come talk to you like what are you doing she's like is everything okay everything's fine like go to sleep i'll come talk to you later so she shuts the door and i said travis case in point bro, that's what I'm talking about. Who does that?

Who does that? Nope. Normal people don't do that. And then the conversation continued for maybe another hour. And we caught her again. We caught her again eavesdropping on our conversation. When we caught her the second time, I said, Travis, get out of here, dude. I was like, go down there. Go handle that.

Like, we're done. Conversation's done. If you don't you don't get it there's nothing I mean there's nothing more I can do but what Jody said was excuse me what Skye said was she said Travis we're afraid we're gonna find you chopped up in her freezer that's what that's what Skye said moments before we discovered that Jody was eavesdropping outside our bedroom door. Chris, you got to tell me. You have to tell me. What was it that she did? What was it about her that made you feel that, that made Sky feel that?

What did she do? Well, at this point, keep in mind, she had already admitted to us that she had been stealing, getting into Travis's emails. She already admitted she'd been getting into his cell phone. She'd been tracking his conversations with other women and keep in mind, they were not in a relationship. They were just trying to figure out if they wanted to be in a relationship. She's following him around the house. She's becoming like a chameleon. We watch her personality shift from one person to the other, depending on where she goes and who she's with and what she's doing. And so it was all of those things that were kind of creeping us out in the background. But once we saw that she's in our house and she's eavesdropping

on a very private conversation and it was the look in her face, it was a cold, murderous, and again, not 20-20 hindsight after she killed him. Sky and I were holding hands, laying in bed at 2 o'clock in the morning, and she said, Chris, did you see that look? I said, of course I saw that look. It was one of the scariest things I've ever seen or seen. And she said, do you think our kids are safe? Should we go and get the kids and

bring them into our bedroom? And then she said, Chris, she's evil. She could burn our house down. Like that's what was, it was that look that was so frightening that gives you chills and causes the hairs on the back of your neck to stand up. I've never experienced anything like it before nor since. You know, right now I'm almost speechless, but I want to follow up on something that I write about in my book, Don't Be a Victim, that I have asked people literally hundreds of times. What is it? Is it instinct that is in us from the time we walked out of the goo somewhere and began to walk upright? Did it go all the way back to the Garden of Eden? I don't know. But you and your wife, Chris, knew.

Right now I'm getting chill bumps. You knew something was wrong. And I keep asking you because I'm trying to get a definitive answer. And there is no real definitive answer. It's, quote, just a feeling. Yeah. And I tell people all the time, don't ignore those so-called hunches because they are born of thousands of years of evolution. The human body and mind is the most incredible computer or robot in the universe, I think, because we're picking up on things we don't

even realize. It could be a smell, a touch, a remembrance, a movement. It could be anything. And Alexis Tereshchuk, how many times have we covered cases where someone said, I just had a bad feeling? It happens in almost every case. And people even like, they leave clues that they are scared. Women tell their friends, if something happens to me, know that my husband did this. And that's what Travis started doing. He started telling, not, you know, Chris can talk about this, but so many other friends, friends of his that I've spoken with over the years, that he was getting worried about Jodi because she would do really weird things.

When they finally broke up, she would come back to his house. She would sneak in the door to get into his house. Everyone was afraid. But Chris Hughes, even after that incident, was she allowed back in your home because Travis stuck by her? No. No, in fact, that night when Sky and I were laying in bed, she said, this is the end of the road for her. She said, I'm kicking her out. No, she said, she's not welcome in our house. And I said, well, how's that,

how's that going to happen? And she said, I'm going to tell her, I go, you're going to tell her, you're going to like kick her out. So yeah, I'm going to kick her out and tell her to leave my house and don't ever come back. And, um, and she did that. The next morning was fascinating. We all got up and, uh, Jody and Sky went into Jody's room and Sky thrashed her in a very ruthless way for over three hours. I wasn't in there. I heard about it after the fact, of course. But while she's telling Jody that she thinks that she's evil and that she's bad and that she's dangerous and that she doesn't like her and she doesn't trust her.

She's telling her all of this stuff. And I'm in the kitchen telling Travis, hey, it's not going to be good. You know, like Sky's going to kick her out of our house and she can't come back. And Travis is like, why? And I'm like, really, Travis? Why? You got to ask why? And then he was just totally defeated, you know, because for the months that we've been building our business together and hanging out we've been talking about man let's build it big let's make a

lot of money you know we can travel the world you get married and we'll you have kids and we'll have we'll be able to hang out together with our families and you know so we were kind of dreaming and scheming a little bit about spending spending time together with our families traveling so he's all excited because he's thinking man maybe this is the one. And then she joined the church eventually. And now the people that are his kind of brother, sister, father, mother figures, and also mentors in business. And now these people are disapproving of this woman that he cares so much for. So it was really depressing for him. But anyway, so after three hours, Skye told me afterwards, she said, Chris, I, I like verbally mutilated her and she didn't even care.

She said she didn't cry. She didn't grimace. Like she didn't even care. She said she didn't cry. She didn't grimace. Like she didn't even look sad or upset. She was just indifferent while I just laid into her. But at the very end, Jody got really pouty and kind of sad. And she said, well, you're not going to tell Travis not to date me, are you? And Sky said, yes, Jody. That's the point. Of course I'm going to tell Travis not to date me are you and Skye said yes Jody that's the point of course I'm gonna tell Travis not to date you I don't like you I don't trust you I think

you're evil I think you're a bad person I don't want Travis or anyone that I love or care for to have anything to do with you yes that's what I'm going to do and then Jody started to cry at that point. She started to get little, little tears coming down. So then they come out and you would think, I mean, just normal people when they get eviscerated in that way. I mean, it was so embarrassing and humiliating. I wouldn't have stayed 30 minutes, much less three hours, but normal people would leave. Right.

When the host says you can't be here anymore, don't come back and stay away from my family. Normal people would leave, right? When the host says you can't be here anymore, don't come back and stay away from my family. She walks out of the bedroom, sits down at the kitchen table, and just sits there in a coma state for like 30 minutes. And finally, I had to look at Travis behind Joey's back, and I said, Travis, get her out of here. Like, what is she doing? And so he takes her out in the backyard. They have words. And finally they left. But just think about that.

Think about putting yourself in her shoes, getting kicked out of somebody's house and then not leaving. It was so weird. Oh, how I wish that had been the end of their relationship. Yeah, me too. Killers Amongst Us, Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.