Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Killers Amongst Us: (Part 3) Gorgeous Queens jogger Karina Vetrano murdered the one day dad stays behind.

Episode Date: March 31, 2020

The search for jogger Karina Vetrano's killer begins. Police begin with the her father, pulling him out of her funeral for a DNA text. Today, Phil Vetrano shares with Nancy Grace the extent of his daughter's injuries and what steps police took to identify a murder. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. Welcome back to Killers Amongst Us, a production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. What happened to this beautiful girl, Karina Vetrano? Her father, Phil, finds her body. Now, the search for a killer. Leads begin to pour in. Still no results.

Can't catch who killed this beautiful girl. What they found made even a hardened detective turn away. Nancy Grace, killers amongst us. Give me a sense for the injuries Karina suffered. Facial injuries. She also had bruising on her body. We believe from being dragged through those weeds. So that's what we believe where that bruising on the body came from. And when you found her, she was still grasping to the weeds? She had the weeds,

stems of the weeds in her hands. What does that tell you? She fought not to go into those weeds. Contrary to several reports, Chief Boyce now confirms to me there was no DNA evidence found at the scene to show that the would-be rapist completed his sexual assault.

Karina's dad took me to that jogging trail in Howard Beach where police found his beautiful daughter. I don't know if this person was waiting for her. I don't know if this person was following her. I don't know if this person knew her routine, drove to the other end, and met her head on. You are hearing our friends at Crime Watch Daily. That was Chris Hansen with Detective Robert Boyce. With me, Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the state of Florida. Cheryl LaPointe, DNA genealogical expert with the Gene Hunter LLC. Renowned psychotherapist, Dr. Robbie Ludwig, Steve Lampley, detective, and Tony

DiStefano, Newsday reporter on the story from the very beginning. I want to go straight to Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida. Dr. Gallagher, what can we learn from Karina's body? Well, we can learn a few things, Nancy. Number one was, of course, you know, how she died and the manner in which she died. We can look on her body for bruises and injuries that are of fatal nature, and we could determine then the manner and cause of her death. You know, at the beginning to Tony DiStefano, Newsday reporter, as you just heard, it was stated that there was no DNA. But I don't think that's accurate. Well, I think what Chris Hansen said, there was no DNA which indicated that the killer completed a sexual act,

meaning semen or possibly saliva. There was DNA found on Karina's body. There was DNA found on her cell phone. And there was DNA found under her fingernails. So there was DNA. It was touch DNA, except for the stuff under the fingernails, which was more of a skin sample from what I understand. But there was DNA.

But that's all they had in the beginning. And certainly that's really all they wound up with for a very long time. What type of DNA was obtained from her? Well, it was what they call, in large measure, touch DNA, meaning it wasn't blood or saliva or direct bodily fluids from the suspect. It was skin cells that had rubbed off through the touching of Karina on her body. That's, in large measure, what they found. But yet no match to the DNA. To Tony's DeCefano Newsday reporter,

tips begin to pour in, and no matter how hard police try, no success. Listen. Over 250 leads were received from the public, and over 1,700 investigative reports were prepared. At one point, it seemed the case had gone cold. She had the DNA under her nails. She had touch DNA on her back and there was more DNA on the cell phone. Tony DiStefano, Newsday reporter. Tony, tell me about these hundreds

of tips pouring in. Oh, they were getting plenty of tips. I mean, they were getting... When any case like this happens, the cops are going to get plenty of tips, particularly in a rather cloistered and contained community like Howard Beach, where everybody knows everybody. They're going to get tips. They're going to be tips coming in from all over and then from outside. But they were not leading to anything fruitful. I mean, the cops were going

out. They were taking DNA reference samples from any one of a number of people. I would say hundreds of people. The search for a killer is on, joining me, Karina's father, Phil Detrano. Phil, when you were first told that there was no DNA, that with all these leads and tips being called in, cops weren't getting anywhere. What was going on in your mind, Phil? I was working. I was hunting every single day. I put up probably 5,000 flyers. I went on any network, any news program, any radio show that would have me. I didn't stop. Every day I was working, I was hunting for this killer. I was putting up banners, you know, and I advertised a quarter million dollars reward for any lead that would lead to the arrest and conviction of the killer. So that's what I was doing at that time. Joining me right now, Dr. Robbie Ludwig, psychotherapist. Dr. Robbie, I mean, that was all consuming. I remember being with Phil on Dr. Oz

and all the many times Phil joined us here as the search for Karina's killer went on here on HLN, anywhere we could publicize the case. That burning quest where you can't sleep, you can't eat, you can't think. What is that following the death of someone you love? Well, it's a tremendous amount of grief. And the grief is very different when a child is murdered because the thought process goes directly to what happened during those final moments. What kind of pain were they in? What kind of fear were they experiencing? And as a parent, any parent knows this.

You want to protect your child from everything, from any kind of pain. So it's extraordinarily traumatic and painful. The loss of a child is the worst kind of loss any parent can experience. And then due to murder, it's even more challenging to try to get through that kind of grief. The inability to sleep, the inability to eat, the inability to think straight. I mean, Phil Vetrano, I remember I couldn't stand to even hear a clock tick after my fiance was murdered. In the days following Karina's death, what was your life like? Well, it hasn't changed much, Nancy. Basically, you're still in disbelief.

I still don't believe it. You know, it seems like it happened yesterday. Those first few days are a complete blur. I don't remember what we did. I don't remember who was here. It's impossible to even recall how we functioned. But, you know, your body does function. But it hasn't changed much. I mean, the pain, the grief, the anguish, it's still here every day.

It doesn't go away. Robbie, I don't know how you move forward with that, but especially when the killer remains at large. I don't know how he put one foot in front of the other, Dr. Robbie. Well, I'm sure, as anyone will tell you, you go into just automatic mode, just putting one step in front of the other. So it feels like your body is moving forward, but your mind is just kind of stuck in this trauma. And what we know about trauma is that it becomes three-dimensional. And as your guest said, that it feels like it happened yesterday because it probably is more vivid than what happened an hour ago.

And then the quest and the purpose to find justice sometimes is what can keep parents going, to finally have their day in court, to find the killer, to make sure that this never happens again, to find the meaning, if you can, in the horror, I think is what keeps many people going forward. Well, as a matter of fact, to Karina's father, Phil Vetrano, you were actually pulled out of Karina's funeral to give DNA. Well, two police officers showed up. They came. You know, the wake was only one day, and it was two days later, so we didn't know what was going on.

Two detectives showed up and said, we'd like to see you in the back room. So we went into the back room, and they said, we'd like a DNA sample. And I said, take whatever you want. I said, if you need my arm, you can take my arm. And they swabbed me right there at the funeral parlor because everybody was a suspect.

You know, Phil, I know that you, because of who you are, do not hold that against the cops. And you were happy, happy to give your DNA. But I've got to say the timing was, let's just say, very unusual, Phil Vetrano. I think they wanted to eliminate me as soon as possible because rumors were flying that the father did it. So they want to eliminate me as soon as possible so they could focus on who really killed her.

To Steve Lampley, detective, I thought that was harsh. But the cops did have to get Phil Vetrano's DNA, her own father. He was the last one to talk to her before she went running. He's the one that called police and law enforcement to come search. He's the one that started searching for her. He couldn't stand still. He had to one that called police and law enforcement to come search. He's the one that started searching for her. He couldn't stand still. He had to go look for himself. He is the one that found Karina's body out in the middle of really a very wild life in a very wild environment. He found her. He says from really divine inspiration led him to a certain spot.

Now, I believe Phil Vetrano, but I guarantee you a jury is going to want to know that he was led to her body by divine intervention, not because he knew where her body was. That's why they had to get the DNA, Steve Lampley. Of course, Nancy. And like he said, when police officers or investigators began the investigation, and we talked about this before, they start with the inner circle

and they work their way out. And they did want to eliminate and they did want to put to rest these rumors that the father was involved. And I will admit, probably at the funeral home, at least to me, probably was not the best place, maybe afterward. But irregardless of that and the bad timing, they did need to do that. And they did need to eliminate the inner circle as quickly as possible to quell the gossip and the rumors.

Well, you know what? I never heard those rumors. Phil Vetrano, what rumor that you were involved in Karina's murder? Who would say that? They're still saying that, Nancy. There was a certain group of people on social media that still think that the father did it. So this continues to follow me. It doesn't bother me. It bothers my wife more than it bothers me. But it doesn't bother me because you have to take it

from where it comes. Dr. Robbie Ludwig, I guess I need a shrink. Why would people do that? I mean, they got DNA from Karina's body. It does not match her father, Phil Vetrano. So as I always say to my children, okay, and I say very often to defense attorneys, let's follow that argument through to its logical conclusion. So in order to reconcile the misbelief that Phil Vetrano had anything to do with his daughter's murder, you would have to believe that she goes jogging, that someone else comes and leaves their DNA on her body, and then Phil comes and murders her, or that Phil murders her and then someone else happens upon her body and leaves their DNA on her. That's what that means.

That's the logical conclusion of believing Phil Vetrano had anything to do with her murder. My question to you, psychotherapy wise, is what is wrong with people? Well, when it comes to that sounds almost like a conspiracy theory. Right. Well, when it comes to, that sounds almost like a conspiracy theory, right? And for whatever reason to certain people, that idea is preferable. And what we know, Nancy, is that when people are coming up with different theories, there's a confirmation bias. And people like to believe in their own rightness. And then they eliminate the facts or they bend the facts so that it makes sense or is in alignment with their belief system. What we do know, and you know this, Nancy, is that very often murders

happen. You look at the people in the family, but clearly that's not the case here. But I think that you have to look at the culture that we live in and perhaps why certain people want to believe that it might be the father in this case instead of a young black man and whatever that means to people. So I think that there's a lot more that's going on here. But basically, it's confirmation bias. When people think things through, they're thinking through emotionally, not factually. And that's where the law comes in, hopefully. But why, you know, that sounds like a very esoteric explanation, Dr. Robbie Ludwig. And I appreciate all of your education and all of your training and your Facebook live show that you do from Times Square and all that. I'm impressed. But I guess what I'm trying to

figure out is why are people so mean and hateful to Phil Vetrano and his wife after what they've lived through and are still living through right this very minute to go online and post that he murdered Karina. It just, it just, it, it makes my stomach hot on the inside just saying it. Well, listen, there is a very cruel and murderous drive that exists in all of us, and there's keyboard courage. And we see this a lot with people who are victims. Sometimes people will join in the bandwagon, and it's their opportunity to bully and to be aggressive and to feel powerful. There must be something about the storyline they don't like

or they find frightening or they find scary. So to blame the father makes it, in their mind, feel okay or that the father is worthy of getting this level of aggression. Listen, this is every parent's nightmare. You can't watch your kids 24-7. And especially if you have athletic kids that are interested in staying healthy, they're going to go out for a jog. They're going to go and work out.

They're going to walk around the block. And on some level to know that some stranger can come in and rape and kill your child and to not have the answers to these questions is a very frightening scenario that many people can't think through and tolerate. And now that we have social media and people can be anonymously mean, sadly, that's very often where people go. I'm looking at the evidence here. We know that Karina had been strangled so tightly that a handprint was actually found on her neck. DNA from her killer found under her nails, on her back, on her phone, which was found in the weeds several feet away. I'm just thinking the crime scene through. Phil Vetrano, at the moment the cops showed up at the wake or at the funeral parlor

and told you to go to another room, do you remember that moment and what went through your mind? tell me they caught somebody because we thought that this was going to be solved, you know, right away. We were so naive on how these things play out, you know, and then it takes two and a half years to come to a conclusion. I had no objections whatsoever. You know, I'm just trying to remember, and Dr. Robbie, you and I have talked about this many times. When I think back on my fiancé's funeral, it was a horrible, horrible blur. I saw a portion of his face above his coffin. I passed out.

To this day, when I smell carnations, it makes me physically sick. And how Phil Vetrano had the strength to go in another room and say, here, sure, take my DNA. I don't know how he did it. Well, Phil wanted justice, and he knew that he was innocent. And that's the way you behave when you're innocent of a crime. You want to get to the bottom of who the real killer is here, who the real rapist is here. And so that's, I can't speak for him, but we have him here so he could validate what I'm saying. He was an innocent man who wanted to find the real killer, whatever it took at that moment. He was thinking protectively of his daughter. We don't stop protecting our children just because they're no longer with us. We still

remain in protective mode. Joining me now, Shara LaPointe, DNA genealogical expert. She is with the Gene Hunter, G-E-N-E Hunter, LLC. Shara, there was DNA. At first, when the police thought there was no DNA, they were wrong. DNA was obtained from her cell phone, from her body, from under her fingernails. Why couldn't they find a match, Shira? Well, Nancy, law enforcement has access to databases that have DNA from criminals. If someone is arrested for a violent crime, their DNA gets put in these databases. The problem is a lot of these criminals are smart, and they don't get caught, or sometimes they haven't committed other crimes, so their DNA is not in the system. So when the DNA runs through this CODIS system and they look for matches, it's not found.

Cheryl, when you said CODIS, to what are you referring? CODIS is the Combined DNA Index System. It's a nationwide system that all law enforcement can update DNA data to so you can search for criminals. And typically in law enforcement, the DNA that you will find if you get a hit in CODIS is either a person, an identity hit, or an evidentiary or a forensic hit. A forensic hit means that you get information, but you don't get a direct hit on the killer. An identity hit means you can identify the name of the killer because they're in the databank. Now, in this day and age, people are required to give their DNA when they are convicted of a felony in almost every jurisdiction. But there are other ways are required to give their DNA when they are convicted of a felony in almost

every jurisdiction. But there are other ways you have to give DNA or fingerprints. For instance, when I became an assistant district attorney, I had to give my fingerprints. In many, many lines of work, you have to give fingerprints. DNA is another matter. Amazingly, even with a strong DNA sample, they could not get a hit. Phil Vetrano, when you first learned there was DNA from the killer, you believed the case would be solved very quickly, didn't you? I did. So did Chief Boyce. Because he told me, he was in my house, and he said, we have DNA. And he said, this is a class three felon, meaning that he believed that this couldn't be the killer's first time doing this.

He thought that we were going to get a DNA hit because this is not a typical first crime for someone to commit. It was so horrific. You know, you usually work your way up to that, to murder. Of course, the search was on. Take a listen to our friends at Pixie Lab and John Mueller. There are some new details in the murdered Queens Jargo Carina Vetrano case. New video shows the 30-year-old on her last run a short time before she was sexually assaulted and strangled. Now, the video obtained by the show

Crime Watch Daily shows Vetrano entering Spring Creek Park in Howard Beach on August 2nd, about five hours before her body was discovered. Police have a DNA profile of her killer, but have not been able to match it to anyone. Investigators say her relatives and ex-boyfriend have all been cleared as suspects. At the moment we do believe that was a stranger rape in the sense that they have very extensively looked into her relationships over time, where she worked, relationships, boyfriends, etc. And none of that has come to fruition. To Tony DiStefano, Newsday reporter, we were just hearing about actual video of Karina

just before she was ambushed. I remember that video. It's of her jogging along. You can see she's got earbuds in her ears. Where did that come from? That came from a home video, you know, a home surveillance system set up on one of the homes not far from Karina's house. I believe it was around the corner. You know, one of these normal security videos that families put up. And that's where it came from. And it caught her in

that snippet. I think it probably was about five seconds, if that, of her jogging with her earbuds in and sort of loping up the street to the park. I have watched that video over and over and over. I've done it in slow-mo. I've put a spotlight on her earbuds. I've done it in such slow motion so I could look around to see if I saw anybody in the background. Phil, did you do the same thing? Of course I did.

Of course I did. That was a typical, normal thing to do. I mean, we had a video of her, and I was actually seeing faces in the weeds, like imagining, look, isn't that a person that's hiding in the weeds over there? And, you know, you were looking at anything that you could find that could show something, show somebody, but there was nothing there. You know, when I hear him say, Dr. Robbie Ludwig, psychotherapist, that he was seeing faces in the weeds, that just breaks my heart. He was looking so hard to catch his

daughter's killer. Yeah. So, you know, of course, you know, you're, you're looking, you're wanting to find details. You want to find some kind of indication of who this murderer is, and you begin to see things. You begin to rely on your eyes and see what you want to see. And again, we hear the desperation and the motivation to try to find out who's responsible for committing such a horrific crime, a stranger crime, which is so hard to kind of wrap one's head around. Why would a stranger want to kill an innocent girl who has her whole life ahead of her? It just is incomprehensible. You know, I'm't catch the killer.

As the weeks drag on, Phil Vetrano, what did that do to you and your wife? Like I said before, I was working. I was hunting. Every day I would go out and I'd put up flyers and I was looking. I walked the trail from beginning to end a hundred times looking for any piece of evidence. I found goggles that you would wear if you were on a dirt bike and I didn't touch them. I call the cops. I said, listen, I found this. They came and they did a DNA test on it. So I was involved at that point.

My wife, on the other hand, you know, she was not involved with the search. So she was in more pain and more anguish, and she just didn't know what to do. You know, we did news conferences, and she was involved in that, but she wasn't involved in the actual putting up flies. And I call that hunting because that's what I was doing. I was hunting. Take a listen to our friends at ABC7. The family of Karina Vetrano marked six months since her murder. It is one of the city's most high profile crimes. And her family is pushing for a type of DNA testing that could find the person who killed her. We were live on Facebook as they made that announcement.

Eyewitness News reporter Marcus Solis is live from Howard Beach with more on what the family is pushing for. Marcus. No doubt about it. Phil Vetrano says he is in a war, fighting to find his daughter's killer. And on this, the six-month mark since her death, he is calling on state lawmakers to change the guidelines

regarding DNA testing. The Vetrano's members of the Howard Beach community, as well as elected officials, gathered at the spot where Corrina Vetrano was last seen alive. The 30-year-old was found dead last August in the woods of Spring Creek Park. That's where she would routinely jog. Profilers who have studied the case believe the killer may have been a park regular who since disappeared from the area. Now, Vetrano fought off her

attacker and DNA was recovered, but there's been no match in federal and state databases. The Vetrano's are urging either the state legislature or the state commission on forensic science to authorize what's called familial matching. That is the widening of the screening process to see if genetic relatives of the killer are in the database. New York does not allow it but ten other states do. The main opposition comes from the ACLU which cites privacy concerns. The Vetrano's naturally disagree. There is nothing that any educated scientist or opposer could ever, ever tell me that could justify not using a tool to find a murderer that is out there.

You know, there's no substitute for good, hard police work. Police investigative work. Well, the Vetrano's will testify at a public hearing next week, and they hope to get those guidelines changed. As for the investigation, the NYPD says it continues to pursue leads, and the reward in this case is well past the $200,000 mark. You know, when I think about what you were going through at that time, Phil Vetrano, and then you have to take on the

legislature to get familial DNA. But first to Cheryl LaPointe, DNA genealogical expert with the Gene Hunter. Cheryl, what is familial DNA? So Nancy, familial DNA is actually, it's a DNA search that looks for matches when you don't have an exact match in these databases. So we have normally 20 markers that are looked at when the DNA is run through the CODIS system. If you get a match at 20 markers, you have your perpetrator. But we can also look for less markers than 20. If you get a match at about 10 markers or so, that suggests a person is closely related. Could be a parent, a child, or a sibling. So it's another way of looking through the DNA to find the answers.

During all of this, the family doing everything they can to find Karina's killer. To Tony DiStefano, Newsday reporter, what was going on behind the scenes to solve the case? Well, they were stumped, as they admitted many times. DiStefano, Newsday reporter. What was going on behind the scenes to solve the case? Well, they were stumped, as they admitted many times. They had the DNA. And what they did was, you know, they couldn't really use familial DNA because it wasn't approved in the state yet. But what they were doing was sort of changing their M.O. and they started to go back into old police reports, even those that didn't have anything to do with any suspicious activity like a homicide or a robbery. And they started to call through previous sightings of people or arrests of people or people who were stopped in the Howard Beach neighborhood. And they were really up against it, and they had to sort of change their tactic

because the traditional tactic of DNA searching and assessing all the leads that came in wasn't working for them. So they had to go further back and look at things that they might not have ordinarily looked at. You know, looking at break-ins, attempted break-ins, people that were loitering, people even that had thrown out trash in the area, people that had littered along that stretch of road. I remember it so well, Phil Vetrano. Cops were actually pulling up police reports of perpetrators that had been sitting on cars, drinking beer in a can, or had thrown down a beer can, or just any minor,

minor violation of a law, an ordinance. They were going through every single police report. Do you remember that, Phil? Of course I do. I felt like I was directly involved with the investigation. They kept us in the loop. And they checked out every single possible lead. Like you said, picking up beer cans, picking up bottles, picking up trash. And then a break in the case. To Tony DiStefano, Newsday reporter, what happened? Well, there was a commander of detectives by the name of John Russo, and he was intimately involved with the investigation, and he said, look, we've got to go a different way in this case. So he decided to go back over an old stop of somebody, a young man in Howard Beach in May, about two or three months before the murder. And they were fishing around, and they said, well, who was this guy?

And they were trying to find out who he was. Fortunately for the cops, there wasn't any stop report, so they had to go back into an old police memo book to divine his name. And that's where the case took off. Take a listen to this 911 call. 911, where's the emergency? Hi, it's not an emergency. It's a suspicious male. Take a listen to this 911 call. stopping in front of some houses and he keeps going. Then he stops. With a hoodie? What color is the hoodie? He's got a black tracksuit on with a white

and black top. It's the switcher's person outside and you're saying that he's wandering, walking up and down the block. And you're saying that he's also looking into yards? Well, he keeps stopping in front of different houses and then he keeps walking on, but he's backtracking. He's going back the same way he came numerous times. I'm a police lieutenant.

Well, help is already on the way. I just have a few more questions. Listen, it's not a 13. I'm an off-duty lieutenant. He's just reporting a suspicious person. Okay. And what is the description? Is he black, white, Hispanic, Asian, Indian? He appears to be. He's a dark skinned male. I don't know if he's Hispanic or black. Okay. So he's male, dark skinned. And you said he's wearing a black and white tracksuit, correct? He's wearing black tracksuits, you know, black pants, black and white top. You're an MOS from where? I'm sorry. I'm a lieutenant. Chief of Detective's Office.

Lieutenant? Yes. From what? On Precinct? I work at Headquarters. Headquarters? Yep. Okay, Headquarters, but you're off duty, you said, right? Yes.

Okay. Okay, operator number 1847. All right, great., right? Yes. Okay, Corita, number 1847. All right, great. You give them my number if they want to call me, that's fine. To Phil Vetrata, Corita's dad, Phil, how in the world was this old, it's not even a police report of a suspicious person in the neighborhood, months before? In fact, it's just really notations in a police notebook. How did that lead to this 911 call? The 911 call was by, like Tony says, Lieutenant Russo, of a suspicious person just

walking around the neighborhood. And thank God that they were able to find a name. And with that name, they were able to find an address, and they looked up his past history, and he did have a violent past. So they used that as a reason to get a sample from this person. You know, to Dr. Robbie Ludwig, psychotherapist, a lot of people say it's just a hunch, a hunch. They had a hunch they should look at people loitering in the area, people that had been wandering the area, suspicious activity that never really amounted to a police report. But you know what, Dr. Robbie, you and I have discussed this many times. I don't really believe in hunches. I think hunches are

ideas that you get because of literally millions of years of evolution, of radar, internal radar, of things you may have seen in the past that you didn't even register, of something you hear, something you smell. You don't know why you get a hunch. But I consider a human being like a living radar machine that's circling around and around and around and around, and you pick up on things that may mean nothing to your brain, but inside, it means something to you. I think that's a lot more than a hunch, Dr. Robbie Ludwig. I agree with you, Nancy. And when somebody is talented and also skilled in an area, they're plugged into facts and feelings in a certain way that really can produce important results. I came across a quote once that said, intuition is putting together facts very quickly. And I think at its best, that's exactly what intuition is.

And that's what a hunch is. And it's worth following because very often it could lead us down the right path and answer many questions that we have about various situations in our lives. Just think about it. Months have passed since Phil Vetrano finds his daughter brutally murdered. Months pass. Even with the video, even with DNA, still no suspect. Fast forward, February 2017. NYPD Lieutenant John Russo suddenly remembers a complaint

from the year before, May, the year before, about a suspicious guy wearing a hoodie and sweatpants on a hot day. A hoodie and sweatpants on a hot day. A hoodie and sweatpants on a hot day. Looking at houses in the Howard Beach area. The next day, the same guy pacing in a parking lot. Residents reporting a similarly dressed man with a crowbar in his hand going in and out of backyards. Nobody could find a crowbar. Nobody observed a crime.

But it remained in the mind of the NYPD lieutenant. And finally, a name emerges. Chanel Lewis. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.