Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Killers Amongst Us: Real Life "Hell's Kitchen," Gorgeous Restauranteur Disappears. What happened to Dawn? (part 2)

Episode Date: October 13, 2020

Dawn Viens disappears after her husband David, says the couple has an argument. Police talk with David Viens and Dawn's friends, but are they taking her vanishing act seriously? Some things just don't add up. And then a friend gets a text. Who's Pixie and why is she starting over in another state? Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. Welcome back to Killers Amongst Us, a production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. She's young, she's beautiful, she's an expert in the restaurant business. She's got that magnetic personality, charismatic that everybody wants to be around, the center of attention with little effort on her part. But why would she leave a brand new restaurant she and her husband have really just started? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Killers Amongst Us.

They fight among themselves. They're married and they work together. She would just get fed up and bolt. Employees say, yeah, they fought, they bickered sometimes in front of the customers, but nothing to write home about. On the suggestion that Dawn disappears after an argument, leaving with nothing but her Louis Vuitton bag, a mystery text. Listen. Finally, a friend named Monica comes to police with a real clue. Hi. What can we do for you? My husband and I have been friends with David and Dawn since they got here. We're regulars at the restaurant.

Anyway, I know that she's disappeared, but I actually just got a text from her. What does it say? It says, I'm okay. I'm in Florida. I'm starting over. Pixie. Can I see that? Pixie, which is the nickname that David gave Dawn. That text message, in of itself, would explain where Dawn was. And it should relieve the worry from her friends. You're hearing our friends at Perfect Murder. So starting over, joining me in all-star panel,

Larry Altman, crime reporter, Daily Breeze at the time, now freelance journalist. He knows everything about her disappearance from beginning to end. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author, Blood Beneath My Feet, now the star of Poisonous Liaisons on True Crime Network. Chris Byers, former chief of police, Johns Creek, 25 years as a police officer, now PI and polygrapher at Chris Byers Investigations and Polygraph.com. Renowned psychologist joining me, Dr. Debbie Jaffe-Ellis, adjunct professor, Columbia University

at debbiejaffeellis.com. Veteran trial lawyer, Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction and special guests joining me. Dawn's brother joining me out of Burlington, Vermont, Derek Pappin. Dawn's brother from Bradenton, Florida, David, and her sister, Dana, joining me from Gardenia, California.

To you, Dana, do you remember that moment when you first heard that Dawn had disappeared, that she took off on her own to so-called start over? Oh, I do. Very clearly. Tell me. I got a phone call at work from Karen Patterson, a close friend of Dawn's. And I met up with her and her husband and found out the information from them. And it was a Sunday night, late on a Sunday night, and I immediately went to the Lomita Sheriff's Station to file a missing persons report because I just knew that something was wrong.

Now, that's interesting. When you learned this from a friend of your sister's, you went immediately to the sheriff's office. Why? What made you feel that something nefarious had happened? I would call it a gut feeling, but also because of the timeline. They didn't reach out right away, so it had been almost three weeks since anybody had seen her.

And that just was something that was she wouldn't do. You know, she would have been in touch with one of my brothers or my father or even our grandmother at the time. And none of that had happened. And my instinct told me that something was wrong and that I needed to file a police report immediately. You know, to you, Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now defense attorney. Daryl Cohen, take off your defense attorney hat just one moment. How many times has a case been launched when someone had a, quote, gut feeling? Nancy, I remember as a prosecutor, I used to tell the jury, listen to the judge's charges about the law, listen to the testimony of the witnesses.

But whenever you fail to listen to, listen to your gut. If it feels wrong in your gut, don't do it. If it feels right, to it. So to answer your question, when your gut is there, you go for it and you do what needs to be done, regardless of what the facts appear to be or not to be. Well, you know, the law for many, many years, and I've told this to a jury hundreds of times, you must reach your verdict to a moral and reasonable certainty. Reasonable head, moral heart. You have to follow your heart. Let me remind you of a case, Daryl Cohen. I'm sure you don't need a whole lot of prodding. You remember

the Julie Love murder case? This gorgeous pre-K movement and dance teacher goes missing on a jog. Well, first of all, did she just disappear? Did she take off on her own? And everyone suspected the boyfriend. And I went to Mr. Slate and our boss. And it ended up being totally unrelated to the boyfriend. He had a gut feeling. He had a gut feeling. Remember that, Darrell? Oh, I remember it well. And Lewis, though he didn't try cases, he knew what the case was. He knew the value of cases.

And he knew when to jump and when to sit back and wait and watch. And at this instance, when he waited and watched, it worked, sadly. You know, that's a hard thing to learn to, you know, like Kenny Rogers says, know when to hold them and know when to fold them. There are times in cases when you have to move. And there are times in investigations where you have to lay back and wait. And Dana, Dawn's sister, is saying that night she knew she had to go to law enforcement. David, Dawn's brother, do you recall when you first learned your sister, Dawn, had disappeared? So I do remember, so our mother passed away June 17th that year when Dawn went missing. So July, August, September 17th, she called me each of those days for those months.

And then it was October 17th. I didn't hear from her. So I want to say within the next couple of days, I reached out and I was getting no response at all. And that's right around the time when Dana called me and told me the story. But, yeah, she was calling me every month on the 17th of my mom's death anniversary and, you know, just checking in. And when she didn't check in, I knew something was happening. You know, it's interesting. My sister and I are very, very close,

but she lives all the way on the other side of the country. And she is a brainiac. She runs a department at a university. And she has been taking care of her husband since I can remember he went to heaven. I mean, her whole life has been devotion. And it's really hard for us to find a time with a time difference to talk. But we're in touch all the time. And the connection, the strong connection of growing up together is still there. And if I go X number of

days without hearing from my sister, I get very anxious. Just like you're saying when she didn't call on the 17th, you noticed, hey, Dawn didn't call. Joining me now, Derek, Dawn's other brother, joining me out of Burlington. Derek, do you remember when you realized or when you were first told, hey, Dawn's missing? Yeah, to quote what David said, it was basically the same thing. We talked after mom passed away. I had a son on July 17th, and we talked every time, and it was probably right around that same time,

the first week of October when we had chatted, and she forgot what I had named my son, and I named him Cooper Brink, and my mother's maiden name was Brink, and then it was, you know, she just started crying and said, I can't talk to you right now. And that was the last time I talked to her. It was probably the first week of October. You know what's interesting? Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now defense attorney, actually renowned defense attorney.

Daryl, I always find it very fishy when someone can't remember the last time they spoke to someone that then goes missing. Because I remember like it was yesterday, the last time I saw my fiance before he was murdered. I remember like it was yesterday. He had come to visit me at my parents' home in Macon when I was in college. He had to get up at like 4 o'clock to drive to his construction job near Athens. And I waved at the car as he drove away, and he slung his left arm up and waved at me as the car disappeared. I'll never forget that moment. And you're hearing the Papin siblings, Dana, David, and Derek,

describing that moment. You know, Darrell, when I come on to a suspect that can't remember what happened, that's just a big giveaway to me. Well, not to me. No, of course not. Because to the siblings, to you, that was an impactful moment because of what happened directly afterwards. If my friend goes off to work and it's the same thing my friend does every day or we leave the office every day,

then I don't necessarily remember because my short-term memory doesn't consider that important. But what is important, if you reach out and you don't reach that friend, and suddenly that friend is gone. So then your short-term memory flips back. So it doesn't bother me that someone would... You know what, you've been in the defense business way too long, okay? You need to go take a vacation and get back in touch with yourself. To Larry Altman joining me, crime reporter Daily Breeze at the time, now freelance journalist. He knows the case backwards and forwards.

You know, Larry, right there when we hear the friend state, she gets a text. And Dawn signs it Pixie, which was a nickname given to her by her husband. A lot of people called her Pixie. Why didn't they try? Why didn't Katz triangulate it right then and there? You know, I don't know. They didn't seem to be too concerned at the beginning. I mean, that text was misspelled. The text from Don's friend made no mention,

the text to Don's friend made no mention of the fact that the friend had just been diagnosed with cancer. I don't think at the beginning anyone really took this seriously. You know, I think you're right. And another thing in the police defense to Chris Byers, former police chief, Johns Creek. I don't know that at that time when Dawn first went missing, that the technology was readily available to triangulate down to like a couple of blocks. Was it? No, probably not. Back when this first started, I remember having a murder case when I was with Clayton County Police Department when cell phones were first just getting big. And the first time I ever triangulated one, we got it to within like a five-mile radius. We knew it was somewhere in Cobb County, Georgia.

But yeah, the technology has definitely changed as it's evolved. But yes, back when it first came out, it was not extremely specific. Oh my goodness. I'm smiling because I bet at the time you're like, whoa, we can identify a five mile radius of where the cell phone was. Absolutely. And now we would just laugh at that now.

But then, and I can remember the first time I did a DNA case. And in my youth, and, you know, nobody knew what we were doing. I insisted the scientists, you're going to love this, Chief Byers. I insisted, and you too, Joe Scott, listen to this. I insisted the scientists from the GBI Crime Lab bring all of the microscopic photos of the DNA comparison? I'm like, yes, we're going to show it all to the jury so they can understand what deoxyribonucleic acid really is. Well, when they pulled them up, they looked like to me at a distance as I was doing direct. I said, and please show the jury your slides. They had long rolls of film.

It looked like film that really hadn't developed correctly. It was just like a bunch of blobs in black and white. I'm like, okay, you can put that down right now because I knew the jury would think just like me, how the heck can you look at that and figure anything out for Pete's sake? Get rid of that. And of course, luckily for me, the defense was also equally unknowledgeable about DNA. So they didn't say, hey, hey, hey, hold on. Bring that back out. Let's just see how crazy this whole DNA thing is. So luckily, I got out of that through the skin of my teeth.

But new technology presents issues. If that technology, which is really only advancing, Joe Scott, wouldn't you agree, in the last couple of years, we've really advanced triangulation technology. I mean, it was around, but as Chief Byer said, a five-mile radius, that really doesn't help me too much. No, it doesn't pinpoint anything necessarily, Nancy. Back then, of course, it gave us kind of this broad stroke that we could look at, and it was better than what we had at that point in time. It's just like DNA technology. You know, and this is the key here, though. It's how this technology is actually applied.

Even to this day, you were referring to the DNA slides. It is like watching paint dry. I think back to, you know, the testimony that was offered even in the O.J. Simpson case. He put those people to sleep. And yeah, all the bells and whistles are really cool. The only thing that kept me awake during that was looking at Simpson and Cochran and Corden. It was just like gritting my teeth. I remember that. You are so right, Joe Scott Morgan. Hey, Jackie, so we get down to police work.

What we just heard from the friend Monica and about that text we're talking about. Finally, a friend named Monica comes to police with a real clue. Hi. What can we do for you? My husband and I have been friends with David and Don since they got here. We're regulars at the restaurant. Anyway, I know that she's disappeared, but I actually just got a text from her.

What does it say? It says, I'm okay. I'm in Florida. I'm starting over. Pixie. Can I see that? Pixie, which is the nickname that David gave Don. That text message, in of itself, would explain where Dawn was. And it should relieve the worry from her friends. But now, take a listen to our friends. Investigators speaking to other of Dawn's co-workers and acquaintances. Listen.

As the investigation continues, cops talk to Dawn's friends. Was she unhappy lately or depressed? More exhausted. It's a tough business. Did she ever mention, like, wanting to leave or leaving? All the time. So you feel it's unusual for her to disappear like this? Yeah, unusual, but understandable. Where do you think she might be?

I'm hoping a ski lodge with a boy toy. Friends basically back up what David says. They're really sure that she took off on her own, that she's somewhere with a margarita on hand and enjoying herself, and she'll come back when she's ready. If Dawn really has taken a trip somewhere, then police should be able to track her.

They run her credit card, see if there's any credit card history. Investigators also check U.S. Customs to see if maybe Dawn had taken a flight out of town. There was no sign of Dawn anywhere. Wow, okay, right there. That was good police work, Larry Altman. Larry on the case from the very beginning, checking to see if she had taken a flight, checking to see if she had gone down to one of the islands, checking her banking, her credit card history, but so far nothing.

So the cops are on the right track. Wouldn't you agree, Larry? You know, I don't agree, actually. I would check in regularly with the police, and they would just tell me there was no signs of foul play and her name was in the system. And, you know, they were waiting for her to just turn up somewhere. But I never really got the impression early on that they were really digging into it. I think that came later on. I just never felt at

the beginning that they were really all that active. You know, that's a really interesting point. Joe Scott Morgan, I agree and disagree with Larry. I disagree in the sense that they're looking at her credit cards, they're looking at banking activity. They're looking to see if she left the jurisdiction or is any of her potential old haunts. So they're looking. They're speaking to friends. They're speaking to the husband. They're speaking to coworkers. And that's what they should be doing.

So I disagree with Larry Altman on that. But I agree with him that I don't know how seriously they were taking it. Yeah, I don't know either, Nancy. And, you know, when you're talking about adults that just kind of vanish off the face of the earth, the standard line that you will get from police is, well, they want to do. Listen, even at the medical examiner's office, Nancy, we used to get calls from people that would say, I'm missing my husband or I'm missing my wife. I'm just calling the morgue to check if they're there. And you get so many of those calls after a period of time, it kind of wears you down and you're working on other cases at that moment in time,

stuff that you have solid information on. So it's a very confusing position to put investigators in. I want to go to Dr. Debbie Jaffe Ellis, but first to the Pappin siblings, Derek, David, and Dana here. To you, Dana, did it sound like something Dawn would do, just go off to one of the islands and sit back and have a margarita? No, absolutely not. Why do you say that? Because regardless of anything, they were attached together. They did everything together.

She had never done it before. It didn't make any sense at all. And if she was going to run away, she was going to run away with him. You know? It didn't make any sense at all. And if she was going to run away, she was going to run away with him. You know, it didn't make sense. Yeah, that's an interesting point. You're talking about the husband, David. What about you, David Papin?

Was Dawn the, quote, free-spirited one in the family, the one that would just leave and go on a vacation without telling anybody and get it out of her system and come back home? Was she the responsible one? I mean, growing up, what was her character? Growing up, I would say that Dawn was a free spirit. But once she met David, like Dana said, they were, they, there wasn't one without the other in very many circumstances. Yeah, he had, they were, they were together 99% of the time. And it sounds like they were really dedicated to making this restaurant work. And Derek Papin, the restaurant was working it was

very popular yeah it absolutely was they uh they were the teamwork that they had together was outstanding and definitely was a great couple and like David said they were always together even through the bad times through the good times any time, they always seemed to work things out if there were bad times. And the good times, Don would never go to an island unless he was with her. To Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis, psychologist, adjunct professor, Columbia University. Dr. Debbie, and also, for instance, I might get really mad at my husband about one thing or the other. And maybe there was a time I would have driven off in a huff. But now I have the children.

And there's no way in H-E-L-L, and you can all write this down, that I would ever, ever, ever leave them or do anything to jeopardize being with them. I believe that is the way Dawn and David felt about that restaurant. That was their baby. Well, that's likely, but we can't know 100% for sure unless we're in their heads. And Nancy, you have a moral compass. You're a dedicated mother with a good brain. We don't know how they, and now in no way am I criticizing Dawn or questioning her sanity. I'm not.

But just make a couple of general statements, if I may. Now, when a person is doing something that's life-enhancing, such as regularly checking in with a sister, with loved ones, with friends, and that stops. That's what I think should raise alarm bells. On the other hand, people can change. People can act in uncharacteristic ways. So the fact that Dawn stopped her regular phone calls to me is more alarming than a possibility of her choosing one day as a previously free spirit to do something dramatically different interesting interesting and you know Chris Byers former police chief of Johns Creek I always I agree with Larry Altman on this at this point so many times I see it with teen quote runaways. No, they're either been kidnapped,

they're dead, or they've been sex trafficked. That's what's happening. When teens and women go missing, with teens, they say, oh, that's a runaway. They'll come back. With women, they go, oh, you know what? She's just gone off with a boyfriend. She's just quote taking a break. Why do cops always say that? What the hate is wrong? Oh, you know what? She's just gone off with a boyfriend. She's just, quote, taking a break. Why do cops always say that? What the hay is wrong? Yeah, I think it's just, you know, there's there's that mindset of going into things and trying to make less of it than it actually could be, which is one of the things when I was a supervisor over investigators, I was always very hard on. We look to the worst possible case scenario and then we work our way back.

And that's what you have to do in these cases so that you don't miss. You know, we've talked in the past about those precious early moments where there's evidence out there that can be lost. So you really have to come into these situations and look at the worst case scenario and then work your way back to it's just a runaway. She's run off with a boyfriend or something. But yes, you're exactly right. All too often that happens in the mind of investigators early on in these cases. Take a listen to our friend Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com. The investigation into Dawn Vien's disappearance began weeks after she was last seen. Her sister, Dana Pappen, and friends went to the police on November 18, 2009 to report her missing.

Police talked to Dawn's husband, David Vienz. He tells detectives that on October 18, he argued with his wife about her excessive drinking. He said that earlier in the day, they'd gone to eat at California Pizza Kitchen and that he dropped her off at home and returned to work. When he got home from work that night, Vienz tells police that Dawn wasn't home. He says he takes an Ambien, goes to bed. He also says Dawn wasn't home the next day,

and Vienz tells police that he texted and called her a number of times. Police asked why he didn't contact police. Vienz says that maybe a week or two after, he got a text message from her saying she was okay and that she was with a friend. Vien says that he talked to Dawn on the phone and that she came home on October 25th begging him to leave Lomita and run away to the mountains. David Vien claims that he told her to check into rehab and the next day she was gone. The investigation into Dawn Vien's disappearance began weeks after she was last seen. Her sister, Dana Pappin, and friends went to the police on November 18, 2009 to report her missing. Police talked to Dawn's husband, David Vien. He tells detectives that on October 18, he argued with his wife about her excessive drinking.

He said that earlier in the day, they'd gone to eat at California Pizza Kitchen and that he dropped her off at home and returned to work. When he got home from work that night, Vienz tells police that Dawn wasn't home. He says he takes an Ambien, goes to bed. He also says Dawn wasn't home the next day. And Vienz tells police that he texted and called her a number of times. Police asked why he didn't contact police. Vienz says that maybe a week or two after,

he got a text message from her saying she was okay and that she was with a friend. Vien says that he talked to Dawn on the phone and that she came home on October 25th begging him to leave Lomita and run away to the mountains. David Vien claims that he told her to check into rehab and the next day, she was gone. Wow. To Dana, David, and Derek Pappin. Question to you. Dana, do you believe cops did not take it seriously? No, I believe they took it seriously. But when you don't know a person, you don't know their habits, you can only go on the evidence you're given.

And coming from her husband, the person that's supposed to know her best, and he's saying, well, I just talked to her and she's mad and we had a fight. And, you know, I don't blame them for not taking it more seriously because they didn't have any evidence to prove that anything was wrong. What about it, David Papin? I don't, I don't think they did anything wrong. And around that time, I actually called him. I actually called David and had an hour long conversation. And he assured me, he kept calling me brother. You know, I would never do anything. You know, she just left. You know, you know me better than anyone, you know, da-da-da-da-da.

And without any evidence, like Dana said, there was really no reason to think something had happened. She just left, which I told her to do 100 times. Oh, really? Oh, absolutely. Derek Papin, do you believe the cops were taking it seriously that she had disappeared? Did you buy into she just took off? No, I definitely didn't buy into that. She just took off and all that stuff.

And I think, you know, like Larry said, I think that they didn't think it was a big deal at first and stuff like that. And then, you know, that's, yeah, I thought there was something wrong from the start, just like Dana said. You know, to you, Larry Altman, you're the only one, although Dana goes to the cops and says she's missing, something's wrong. You're the one that says they're not taking this seriously enough why did you feel that i just felt at the time that they took a report and and put don's name in the system and were just waiting to see what happened um i mean there

were some key things that we all knew you know from the start, we knew that Don's car was still in the driveway. So if she had just taken off, like David said, why wouldn't she take her car? This is Southern California. You can't, you know, do anything without driving. And she also left behind a sizable amount of money that she had been saving. If she'd just left on her own, why wouldn't she have gone and collected that money? It was about $640. Well, now that you're telling me that, you've completely turned me around. These are facts that are very, very critical.

She left behind her car. I mean, for Pete's sake, what is she going to hitchhike when she's got a car? And also the nature of the money. She had asked a friend to hold the money in case of an emergency. Why not put it in the bank? Why did she feel she had to? I mean, I'm not going to go hide my little bit of money. I've gotten a glass jar in the backyard for Pete's sake. Now, I don't want to knock that. My great grandmother did it and ended up paying off a farm by, you know, 50 jars buried in the backyard full of nothing but nickels and dollars and cash. So it does happen. But why did she feel she needed an emergency plan?

Why did she disappear without her car? Guys, take a listen to this. We had to look at all the facts. We looked into Florida. We learned that she'd had family members. Her father was in Florida a substantial time of the year. Nobody heard anything from Dawn. If they know where Dawn is, they're not saying anything. The months begin to pass and with no sign of Dawn, cops start to fear the worst. It became apparent to us

that this was just more than a missing person. Now that months have passed, everyone is getting more serious about Dawn's disappearance. Why did it take months? Why are police now sitting on their thumbs? Take a listen to our friend Richard Schlesinger. Some friends alerted Dawn's sister who filed a missing persons report.

That caught the eye of Larry Altman. His first story about Dawn's disappearance ran on Christmas Eve 2009, two months after Dawn vanished, and it got an immediate response. I received a phone call from one of Dawn's friends who had seen that story. She said, hey, I read your story. There's more to this than you know. Wow. Well, the first article was just a basic missing person story. But when I initially had heard about Dawn's disappearance, I placed a call to David to ask questions, you know,

what's going on with this? And I never got a response. And a lot of time passed. And, you know, after several weeks, I thought, boy, I never heard from him. Why would he not call me back? And so I tried again. And I got a return phone call this time from an attorney. And this attorney said, he's not going to talk to you. He's not going to do any interviews. But he is cooperating with the police. And I said, what are you talking about? He's cooperating with the police. And I said, what are you talking about? He's cooperating with the police. And I'm, why wouldn't he be cooperating with the police? And I'm sure, Nancy, you know,

that is a phrase that is used when there's some sort of suspicion. You know what? You're absolutely right, Larry Altman, on the case in the very beginning. And then after you write your article, somebody else hears about it and the case blows up. Listen. How did all this start and why now? This case lay dormant until we reported on it. And then suddenly cops appoint a brand new investigative team and start reinvestigating the case. and now suddenly they've dug out the bottom of the husband's restaurant right nancy well on october 18 2009 is the last time anybody saw don vians her husband said that he actually fired her they got in an argument whoa whoa yeah the husband fires his wife from the family restaurant okay go ahead right. Her friends claim that he fired her that day.

He says she just walked away, took a Louis Vuitton bag with her. That was the last time he saw her. Wow, so all this, the case blows up after Larry Altman publishes that first article. You know what? I recall the first time I learned, Larry Altman, that he says, the husband says he fired her. How do you fire your wife? Well, exactly. And what else was interesting was that Dawn was replaced in the restaurant.

Straight out to Dana, David, and Derek Pappin. Dana, did you know the husband had, quote, fired Dawn? No, I didn't. That's a surprise. Good luck, David, if you try to fire me. David Papin, did you know that Dawn had basically been, quote, fired from her own restaurant? How do you do that? Oh, I did not know that. But funny enough, in 2004, I was working for David and Don and my dad's sister passed away. So Don and I were in Florida and she said, one of us needs to go. I'll go. And I said, OK, I'll stay and man the restaurant. Well, David stepped in and told Don she was not allowed to go. So I jumped in my car and I started towards the airport because I was going to go. Don was going to cover the restaurant. I got about halfway

into the Tampa airport. David called me and said, don't bother coming back. You don't have a job. You're not loyal, blah, blah, blah. And he fired me on the spot. And I was driving or I was going to Vermont to bury my dad's sister. So I do believe he fired her because he did it to me. So he does have a history of firing people. But I mean, I'm telling you, I mean, you know, guys, how much I love David. But if he tried to order me around or fire me from whatever I'm doing, he would, you know, you put out an arm and pull back another. That's what I've got to say to that.

Derek, did you have any idea that your brother-in-law fired? Don, I mean, it's her restaurant, too. How can you fire somebody? I'd say, oh, H-E-L-L, no, I'm firing you. Take the patent, turn her, pat the the street and turn a corner absolutely not yeah no it's it's it's weird to hear that and all that um especially since she was the primary owner um she couldn't give his licenses and stuff without her so to fire her would it be silly. Guys, take a listen to a little bit more. I follow the trail that Larry Altman sniffed out first.

Take a listen. Deborah, the recent information that we got over this past weekend is that after our show Friday night, cops have now gone out and started re-interviewing people, interviewing friends. We also learned about the possessions being thrown in a dumpster, the Jeep being towed away almost immediately after she goes missing. About a week and a half later, Nancy, after she disappeared, a friend of hers saw her husband's daughter and his new girlfriend taking her stuff. They were in a car. They drove to the restaurant, took stuff out of the car and started throwing things into the dumpster. Allegedly, you know, there was a few things they decided to keep, but most of the things were just thrown away. Okay. So you're telling me that they basically went shopping

in the missing woman's closet. They kept some of her belongings for themselves. I have no idea if it was for themselves, but they certainly did keep some things. I think I recognize that voice. That's me talking to Deborah Mark and Larry Altman. You're right. Killers amongst us. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.