Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KIRK SHOOTING SUSPECT'S FRIENDS & "FURRIES" EYED

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an I-Heart podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Did he have help? The Charlie Kirk shooting suspects, friends and furries tonight under the microscope. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. I heard the gunshot go off.

Starting point is 00:00:27 and that was when I started hearing a bunch of people were crying and screaming to get down, I was terrified. He thought it out, he planned it out, that much that he knew he had to change clothes to blend in. And it hit him in the carotid artery, and that caused it bleed out almost immediately.

Starting point is 00:00:55 As the defendant Robinson is facing four, Formal charges in Utah County Court, interesting, not federal charges, state charges, but the death penalty is the death penalty is the death penalty, whether it's state firing squad or the federal electric chair. That said, facing formal charges as predicted that essentially mirror the charges under which he was arrested, that specifically being the murder of Charlie Kirk. a 31-year-old husband and father of two. For what?

Starting point is 00:01:32 Motive? Political hatred. Ideology differences. Really? At this hour as we go to air, the defendant's friends and furries under a microscope. Did they know what was happening? What are they clairvoyant?

Starting point is 00:01:53 They predicted it online. How did they do that without? knowledge? Did they actually help him affect the murder? That and so much more we are learning, specifically, who got rid of the note? Listen. The suspect wrote a note saying, I have the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I'm going to take it. That note was written before the shooting. That the note, even though it has been destroyed, we have found forensic evidence of the note and we have confirmed what that note says because of our aggressive interview posture at the FBI. Robinson communicated he had an opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and he was

Starting point is 00:02:34 going to do it. Robinson reportedly texted the message and left a note in his St. George apartment. The note was destroyed, but investigators discovered its contents through an interview. The FBI is now investigating if anyone refused to intervene or even helped him commit the murder. That sound of FBI director Cash Patel from our friends at Fox. A lot of people are piling on, right now. Could we focus on the killer? I will get to Patel in a moment. But right now, it's all about the evidence as formal charges being handed down against Robinson. What note? How did it get destroyed? What did it say? And why would someone destroy it? If Robinson himself did not destroy it, who did? Sounds like a co-defendant to me. Straight out to senior

Starting point is 00:03:27 political reporter, Daily Mail, Elena, Shirazi. Alina, thank you for being with us. What note? Yeah, so you just heard FBI director Cash Patel on Fox News on Monday say that Robinson wrote that notes, reportedly saying, quote, I have the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk, and I'm going to do it. Cash Patel also said that the suspect wrote this note. Before the shooting, there was evidence that it existed. It was in their home.

Starting point is 00:03:56 that he lived with, with his romantic partner. But even though Patel says it was destroyed, which there were questions as you brought up Nancy, how was it destroyed, who destroyed it? Because that is obviously crucial evidence. They've still found forensic evidence of the notes, and they've confirmed what the note said because of aggressive interviews at the FBI.

Starting point is 00:04:19 Elena Shirazi, you are absolutely correct. But I don't like the way that that just tripped off your tongue. I want to get every single word you said, all the points you were making, because to me, every one of the points that you so quickly recounted is a point of evidence. You know, to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, joining me. I want to follow up on everything that Alina Shirazi just said. Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, head of an incredible. incredible program there, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon Star of a new hit series

Starting point is 00:05:01 podcast, Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan. That said, he is a death investigator and forensics expert that has handled literally thousands of cases. Joe Scott. Why didn't the guy just take out an ad on Third Avenue? I did it. I mean, to leave a written note, now that's something I would argue in closing arguments, but can we talk about the fact that.

Starting point is 00:05:25 The FBI director said it was destroyed, but that their investigation led to its contents. I smell a co-defendant. Who destroyed that note? And how did they recreate that note? Yeah, good question. I'm wondering if this is a physical note, like a handwritten note, I'm wondering if they found partials of this note that they could have reassembled in some way. and we don't know what destroyed means.

Starting point is 00:05:56 Does that mean that it's torn up? Does that mean that it was burned? All of these factors are going to play into it. Also, is there a chance that there could have been some kind of digital remnant? I have no idea. Hey, Joe, Scott, let's look at each three of those alternatives because we know that they've been able to recreate it. So if it was torn up, simple, some it's, I'm just going out on a limb here, and hypothesizing, it was either him or his roommate that tore up the note.

Starting point is 00:06:28 Yes. That said, it could have been somebody else that happened to be in their apartment that tore up the note. If all it was was torn up, we could put that right back together again. No problem. If it were burned, different thing. That can be recreated too. And it's really not that hard. You've been on plenty of arson scenes, as have I.

Starting point is 00:06:51 when something is burned, very often unless the ashes have been scattered, you can still read what's on the ashes. That is a fact. Yeah. And we have to understand that the evidence response team from the FBI, that by the way, is very good, was on top of everything here working hand in hand with state police. They would have been very careful at all of these scenes. Remember, Nancy, I think that people get lost in the sauce here thinking that there's only one crime scene. Nancy, So you've got multiple scenes here with not just the shooting site, but also the homes that are involved, the vehicles that are involved. There's all kinds of secondary and tertiary scenes involved in this. So this would have been an all hands on deck.

Starting point is 00:07:34 They would have treated this note. Let's just say it was in an incinerated status. They would have treated it as if it's a fragile document from the distant past. One other thing I was thinking about if this was written on a note pad, perhaps, and they used a tremendous amount of pressure when writing, which a lot of people do. If you find that pad, you can reconstruct it based upon the impressions left on the underlying paper still remaining, yeah. Smart, Joe Scott.

Starting point is 00:08:02 And, of course, here's the other alternative, Joe Scott, not to beat a dead horse, but digitally, I don't, I don't, they said it was a note. They did not say it was a text or an email, but if there's some digital proof of that note, such as, hey, get rid of the note I left on my desk. There you go. There you go. Proof of the note. You know, let me go out to a veteran trial lawyer, Franz Borghardt, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, adjunct Louisiana State University at Borghardtlawfirm.com. Franz, thank you for being with us. What if I call you on the phone and go, hey, hey, hey, I left a note.

Starting point is 00:08:50 I think it's on my desk under my laptop. Could you destroy it right now? Okay. And you destroy it. What can I charge you with after the murder takes place? So I've now entered the realm of obstruction of justice, possibly aiding and abetting. In federal court, Nancy, it's a different crime. But it's all in that family of accomplice.

Starting point is 00:09:18 While you may not be able to be charged with murder, you're certainly looking at serious charges on what might be one of the most serious public murders in quite some time. So you are in a heap of trouble. In your jurisdiction for obstruction of justice, what's the sentence? It could be five to 20 for obstruction. There's different flavors of obstruction. There's like a lesser one. But five to 20 and you better believe, Nancy, they're going to be going for the 20. what I predict Franz Borghardt? I predict the furries and friends are going to talk.

Starting point is 00:09:54 They're going to talk rather than do 20, 20 hard on obstruction. Mm-hmm. And a lot has been made about the roommate maybe being transgender and transitioning and his friends are furries. Don't care. I don't care who they are, what they believe, what their sex preferences. I don't care what color they are, what religion or no religion they are. All I care about is, did they have a hand in Charlie Kirk's brutal and public murder? That's all I care about. Guys, there's more, more evidence pouring out. Let's take a listen to the friends, especially the friends on that discord chat room being under the microscope right now listen did they say it hear it and think it was some kind of a joke that's what we're trying to find out now but i promise

Starting point is 00:10:53 you if there's a larger network here we're going to get that out to the public as soon as we can did they know were they sure this or did they hear this and just write it off that's what we're going to have to find out and that's what we're investigating up from our friends at fox straight out to Sidney Sumner joining us, in addition to Elina Shirazi with Daily Mail, Sidney Sumner, Crime Stories Investigative Reporter. What were the friends clairvoyant?

Starting point is 00:11:18 Because didn't they post several of them? Something big is going to happen on September 11. Some of them even naming the place. It'd be funny if someone like Charlie Kirk got shot on

Starting point is 00:11:34 September 10 laughing my ass off Really? You know what? When you're hauled in for questioning, mushy, I don't think you're going to be laughing your ass off then. And there's more. What about it, Sidney Sumner? Oh, here's another one. September 10 will be a very interesting day. I plead the fifth. Really? Why do you plead the fifth if you haven't done anything wrong? And there's so much more. Now, see, that's on August 6th. August the 6th. They're predicting something on the tent and then we effing did it. You guys have something big

Starting point is 00:12:18 coming soon. Just be sure you check the news. You'll know it when you see it. Who are these people, Sidney Sumner? Right. Apparently, these are all people that are being investigated as part of Robinson's network that may have known about this. I mean,

Starting point is 00:12:37 I don't see a way to defend against, oh, I didn't know anything was happening. It seems like you did. Hey, Sidney, look at this. Look at this. Charlie Kirk is coming to my college tomorrow. I really hope someone evaporates him literally. Let's just say, same person speaking, Omar. Let's just say something big will happen tomorrow.

Starting point is 00:13:00 Wow. And look, look at all the people that have reposted it, that have hearted it. I don't know. I don't think they're clairvoyant. Franz Borghardt. It's just like Scott Peterson. Oh, here's another one. Calls Dropout does not know what's coming tomorrow. They're referring to Charlie Kirk. Basically, didn't get into the military academies. Be ready. This isn't a threat. It's a promise. That's Jackson. Jackson, I want to haul you in by your toenails and find out why you. you said that. I mean, we effing did it. Charlie Kirk has died. Oh, Franz Borghardt, just like Scott Peterson. They're not clairvoyant. Recall Peterson said to his lover, this is going to be my first Christmas without my wife. I'm going to have my first Christmas as a widow. And then bam, he did because he murdered her and their unborn baby Connor. Same thing here.

Starting point is 00:14:07 These people are not clairvoyance. I don't know the answer to that. I don't know that they're quote unquote co-conspirators because they knew and didn't say anything. Absolutely foul. Absolutely disgusting. And, you know, if everybody's going to start singing at some point, especially Utah's a fire in squad state, they're not afraid to put someone down and everybody's going to start singing and all this forensic

Starting point is 00:14:32 evidence, all of it, all of it is going to be used against not only the shooter but also these individuals. Well, what about aiding and abetting? Wouldn't that qualify as aiding and abetting? Chearing someone on in their crime?

Starting point is 00:14:48 Not put Franz Borghardt up. Look, I know that you're coming at this from a different lens through a different lens than I am. But just knowing about something is not necessarily crime. But if you aid and abet, if you further that conspiracy at all, if you encourage, encourage is listed in the aiding and abetted statute. The black and white letter of the law

Starting point is 00:15:15 says if you aid, abet, incur, and there are commas, you don't need everyone. Aid, comma, a bet, comma, encourage, comma. If you encourage a murder, you're in it up to here, Borghardt. Well, the federal government and the state are going to have leverage over these people to be sure. Even if it's not a strong aiding and a bed in case, Nancy, they're going to be able to say, you know what, we're going to throw it against the wall and see if we can get it to sick. And that's why I think more likely than not, these lower level people,

Starting point is 00:15:49 and I say lower level because they weren't holding the gun, but they may be just this responsible. I think that they're going to cooperate and try to cut deals that take death penalty off the table. To Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us for now in Psycho Analyst out of LA, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacott at Dr. bethanymarshal.com. Dr. Bethany, who are the ghouls that stand by and let a young father of two get shot in the throat, tearing his throat out. And then they cheer after. Forget what they did after. The aiding and abetting, the encouraging this, that is a crime, a felony. Nancy, these ghouls are people who are also homicidal. You don't cheer somebody on unless you also have homicidal ideation. Now, what's

Starting point is 00:16:40 interesting about this shooting is it has some aspects of a school shooting, not all. It's an assassination as well in that he was standing at the top of a building. It was a efficient a barrel quality, scaring students, creating a power differential, and school shooters tend to confess online and everybody overlooks it. Now, because they're afraid to turn the guy in or they minimize or discount it, what's interesting and different about this is this perp was actually recruiting followers and the followers willingly went along. And I think one of the ways that he recruited followers was through gaming and having people watch him, playing violent games.

Starting point is 00:17:22 And so he was kind of creating an army of support. And I'm going to say these people wished Kirk dead as much as the perp did. They just didn't have to pick up the gun and do it themselves. But they certainly egged him on and pushed him towards it. And in my mind, that is complicity at a psychological level. Did they say it, hear it, and think it was some kind of a joke? That's what we're trying to find out now. But I promise you, if there's a larger network here,

Starting point is 00:17:54 we're gonna get that out to the public as soon as we can. Did they know, were they sure this? Or did they hear this and just write it off? That's what we're gonna have to find out. And that's what we're investigating out. He changed clothes to us to avoid so as to avoid detection. He covered his tracks. He parked far away.

Starting point is 00:18:15 He hid his weapon. He had to go back and retrieve his weapon. He tried to cover his face. Everything indicates he knew what he was doing was wrong, and he tried to hide it afterwards. So this guy, the Kirk suspect, he ain't all that in a bag of chips. Let me throw a technical legal term at you. Idiot. And tonight, we're learning a potential motive.

Starting point is 00:18:43 Hatred. Old as dirt. in one text sent by the alleged shooter, he was asked why he said, some hatred cannot be negotiated with. The alleged shooter says some hatred cannot be negotiated with. And you know what that says to me? Maybe you won't get a plea negotiation. Think about it. I want to of his own words will be thrown back in his face. Will this be a death penalty case in the end? Or will it fizz out like Coburger?

Starting point is 00:19:26 Before the public knows what really happened and the degree of planning involved in Kirk's murder. Right now we are learning formal charges and they mirror the charges on which he was arrested. This is how it goes. Police have PC probable cause to arrest. you. The arrest is for, let's just say, murder and weapons charges. Generally speaking, the formal charges and indictment will mirror what the cops used to arrest you for. Simple. Now, sometimes additional evidence will come to light, and there may be different or additional charges.

Starting point is 00:20:11 That said, that's exactly what is happening in this case. There are additional charge. There are additional charges, but the one that really matters is murder. Now we are learning that the shooter was apparently radicalized online. Sidney Sumner, before we discuss that, could you just remind everybody how many thousands of hours the alleged shooter was online? Well, we know from his Twitch channel, so this is the amount of streaming games that he's played that he's publicly put out there for everyone to watch more than 2,000 hours. That's over 10 years, but when you do the math there, that's an hour a day at least. Now, when you say that that was the amount we know of that was streamed, a lot of people are not familiar with what that means, nor should they

Starting point is 00:21:03 be familiar with it. They're out working and having lives. My understanding is he would play online and there were 2,000 hours of him playing online that he posted or that people could watch as he streamed it. That doesn't include all the online activity that he didn't share streaming. Is that right? Absolutely right. So Twitch is like Facebook for video games. So it's like streaming yourself live on Facebook and people can tune in and watch as you're playing this video game. So there's no telling how many hours he played not publicly just on his own devices without streaming it to everyone. This is only a fraction of what he shared publicly. So the reason I'm telling you about this is because many suspect he was radicalized online,

Starting point is 00:21:55 steeped in political hatred, online. Listen. I will say that that person has been very cooperative with authorities. An anonymous family member of the person Robinson lives with believes Lance Twiggs radicalized Robinson. The woman says Twigs is very low contact with their family and hates them for their political and religious beliefs. She blames immersion in online gaming culture for some of the personality changes seen in the roommate since moving in together, but her gut tells her, Twig provided the fuel behind Robinson's sudden extremism. There was kind of that deep, dark internet, the Reddit culture, and these other dark places of the internet where this person was going deep. That from our friends, that's the Utah governor, Spencer Cox, from NBC speaking earlier.

Starting point is 00:22:54 Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Chris McDonough joining me, Director Cole Case Foundation, star of the interview room on YouTube, but former homicide detective working over 300 homicides plus more. Chris McDonough, motive doesn't matter. Now, I know that sounds off base, but the reality is motive does not have to be proved by the state, period. However, juries like to hear it.

Starting point is 00:23:28 What do you think about this? Radicalized Online? You know, Nancy, there's a couple of things happening right now that are fluid in this investigation. They are scraping the Internet for every click, every keyboard click from Mr. Robinson's, you know, devices. And those keyboard clicks will tell us any kind of messaging that may or may not have been going back and forth to the streaming platforms. where these gamers hang out. The roommate hung out on a variety of different type of streaming platforms. One of them was Twitch.

Starting point is 00:24:05 The other one was what they call Steam, Steemam. I've been on the ground the last three days here in Utah. This is where the investigation is focusing. There's one other point that they're trying to establish. And that's the car in of itself. They've pulled the telematics out of the car. They want to know if that car was moving. when that shot went off.

Starting point is 00:24:27 If that car was moving, now we're into another direction that this investigation could take. Hold on. That is a bombshell. Repeat, about the car potentially moving while Robinson allegedly scaled down the side of that wall while he was shooting while he was laying in weight in a sniper's nest. What?

Starting point is 00:24:53 Yeah, and while we remember when we talked, the other day, Nancy, that the car was at his residence right there. Well, of course, it had to get there. So they're tracking his phone pings. And his phone pings just kind of, my understanding, they're not positive if it went to a car or if the car was parked, et cetera. So they now have that car and they have pulled the data on that car and that's going potentially take them either A, it was parked or B, there's something else going on here

Starting point is 00:25:30 and somebody is driving a car. To Alina Shirazi joining a senior political reporter Daily Mail, Alina, we were looking at video and steals of the same video of the defendant walking through a neighborhood. He had thought ahead, Elena, as you all know, and changed his outfit. Take a look at this. This is him walking through a neighborhood. That's my friends at TMZ, in an entirely different outfit. Now, when he was kneeling down and lying on his stomach, he was wearing what you see on the right. Now, wait a minute. 807, he's on foot. 1149, he's changed clothes. He's back on foot. Where was his car? Did someone? someone drop him at a drop point and pick him back up?

Starting point is 00:26:26 Did he hide his car somewhere and go back to it? Elena, what do we know? Yeah, I mean, looking at all of this, including those discord messages that the FBI is looking through that sort of predicted that this would happen, the fact that he was so entrenched in these groups, also referencing, of course, his romantic partner, which authorities say he became really radicalized, sort of impassioned by his views afterwards. So, I mean, looking at this, I mean, it started with a note and will end with a funeral. They recovered the Mouser 98 rifle.

Starting point is 00:27:01 There was a towel with DNA prints. There is enough evidence there. The big question now is, was he working alone? And they do have evidence that they're looking through now that could potentially point to that. but we certainly we certainly will see he just ditched his gun in the forest in the woods before he went so it was premeditated as you said he changed his clothes it was planned but he's clearly not an expert because he left his DNA Elena we're showing right now you're correct where he ditched the gun and we had on the little facts that we knew at the time hypothesized that the tree area, the tree line where he ditched the gun, was not up in the mountains where many people thought he had scotted up into the mountains, pulling an Eric Rudolph, the Olympic bomber

Starting point is 00:27:59 who lived in the mountains for years before he was caught, but somewhere close to a road. So that leads me to wonder, did someone pick him up in his vehicle after he ditched the gun? Little did he know, a towel is the perfect conduit for DNA. Chris McDonough, you stated that the car and its nav system is being reviewed now to determine if it was moving at the time Charlie Kirk was murdered. How does that work? How do they do that? So what they do is they pull the navigation system out as well as some of the what they call a telematic system. And they're able to send that to either Quantical or Salt Lake City where they have also an FBI office. And in that data, you're able to see exactly what that car is doing.

Starting point is 00:28:54 If it's moving, you know, if it makes a, if the blinker comes on, et cetera, there's a tremendous amount of forensic data that can, you know, be had there. And let's not forget that the, that Tyler Robinson at this point also post-homicide, hold his roommate to go, you know, potentially go get that gun. okay now why would he do that what's going on there and so they this is the angle i think the law enforcement is running on uh in terms of trying to get the bigger circle uh because i think that the car in of itself is going to be very critical in relationship to if like we're talking about here nancy if it's moving if it's what about it joe scott hey look uh his car i like that in the possessive who's driving the car nancy They've already found DNA on a towel.

Starting point is 00:29:51 This is going to be very compelling to me. They will search this car thoroughly. Chris had mentioned the electronics in the car, but I'm interested in contact trace DNA on that steering wheel. I want to know, is there anybody else's DNA in that car that is not an owner of the vehicle? Who's operating the vehicle? If they've gone down this road relative to this towel, remember they found the screwdriver as well, that they say had remnant of DNA, well, if someone is using a gear lever, if someone is opening

Starting point is 00:30:25 the door inside of this vehicle, somebody is obviously steering it. I want to know did they recover any touch DNA inside of this vehicle? And also, are there any latent prints inside this vehicle? Now, we know if he's in a relationship with this person, it's not beyond understanding that that individual would occupy that space. However, it opens the door for other questions forensically, like operating the vehicle. Have you ever operated this vehicle before? And you begin to press this individual relative to more information.

Starting point is 00:30:59 Well, think about it. Josiah Morgan. Here's a great example. I know you recall the reporter, Teresa Holbeck, who was sex assaulted, murdered, and her body burned in a fire pit. in the backyard of Stephen Avery. All that was found were some of her teeth

Starting point is 00:31:20 and the studs on the back of her Daisy Fuentes jeans. Her vehicle was part at the end of his auto salvaged lot covered up and on the ignition was his sweat. Yes. Where he, can you imagine, hunched over the wheel trying to crank up her car and go hide it, just sweating.

Starting point is 00:31:44 onto the ignition and the LA there law enforcement got his sweat off the ignition. I mean, yes, you're right. But here's one thing. I understand everything you're saying and you're absolutely correct. The thing I don't understand, Dr. Bethany Marshall, as somebody calls you after you gunned down Charlie Kirk tearing his throat out and say, hey, hey, can you get me a ride? And the person says, oh yeah, here I come. I was just circling. Who in the H-E-D-L goes along with that. See, Nancy, this is where I think the behavioral evidence is so important. Let's say these two are acting in concert.

Starting point is 00:32:25 What we know about men who are homicidal who act in concert is usually there's a stronger male who recruits a more vulnerable male. And what we're going to see, if you look at all of the Twitch accounts, how he, they were interacting with people online, what I'm interested in is, if you're going to see, if you look at all of the, the Twitch accounts, how he, they were interacting with people online. What I'm interested in is, is it just the perp on Twitch playing violent games in front of a following? Or is it the two of them recruiting a following? To me, that is so vital. And that's going to be very easy to see, Nancy, whose face is there, whose electronic footprint is there. And I also think of this almost like a small cult, where you have two people who are just getting

Starting point is 00:33:10 a ground swell of support. As of tonight, the suspect, Robinson, has stopped cooperating, but meaning a true word is spoken in jest. Take a listen. The suspect has not been cooperating so far, and so we're getting all of this information from family members, again, people around the suspect. Almost immediately after the release, Robinson's friends called him out in their Discord group chat, one asking Robinson where he is. Robinson shoots back, it's my doppelganger trying to get me

Starting point is 00:33:46 in trouble. Another proclaims, Tyler killed Charlie. A third suggests turning Robinson in for the reward, and Robinson sneers, only if I get a cut. You saw the governor speaking to our friends at NBC. Dr. Bethany Marshall, help me out here. You just take a 200-yard shot and tear the throat out of a husband father. Okay. And then you're joking about getting a cut of the reward. when you're the killer? Actually, Nancy, this does fit the profile of this kind of a killer because what it tells me is that he had some kind of paranoid ideation, meaning that he felt that Charlie Kirk's presence on this earth was affecting him negatively in some way. So once he takes him out, there's a relief phase. There's always a relief phase after homicide where somebody's

Starting point is 00:34:32 calm. We saw Casey Anthony going shopping, kind of dancing on the other person's grave. So I think that's really probative here that the fact that they're joking with each other because the group is getting their jolies off. They're very happy that this has happened. It's almost as if he's giddy. Listen to this. The chat continues joking how Luigi Mangione was caught. Whatever you do, don't go to a McDonald's anytime soon. Robinson replying, he better get rid of this manifesto an exact copy rifle I have lying around before insisting the shooter is clearly from California. Elina Shiraziraz. joining a senior political reporter Daly Milt. Explain they are comparing the shooting of Charlie Kirk

Starting point is 00:35:17 to the shooting of Brian Thompson, the health CEO, correct? Yeah, they're trying to draw comparisons there and just kind of make some comments in jest for Louis Jimi and Gianni, who was arrested at McDonald's. So, you know, they responded with a punchline to that. So the question is, if they, truly believe that Robinson didn't do it, you know, that could be a part of the reason why they were joking.

Starting point is 00:35:46 If they did know it was him, that's an entire story in and of its own. But you can imagine what was going through Robinson's head. You're right, Elena. But I want to point out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, they're comparing him to Luigi Mangione, who we have on video shooting Brian Thompson dead, sneaking up on him like a kid. coward and shooting him dead, much the way Charlie Kurt was shot dead at a distance. So the shooter couldn't be hurt or attacked. It's easy to shoot somebody gun them down with a scope in a long range rifle, right?

Starting point is 00:36:26 And here he is talking about, yeah, I better not, I better get rid of my manifesto like Mangione's manifesto. And I got to get rid of the copy rifle. He's not saying, what are you talking about? I didn't do this. I would never kill anybody. You know, Nancy, if you dress it up as a homicide for some kind of ideological reason, you just rationalize to yourself that it's okay. But the end of the day, homicide is homicide, okay? And I think of homicide in a case like this. He talks about hatred. I think underneath the hatred is basic envy. Charles Kirk had a great life, a great wife, two beautiful children. He had the

Starting point is 00:37:08 public stage. He was beloved. He was kind of a provocateur, but people flocked to debate with him and to hear what he had to say. And I think that these perps, and I'm going to put an S on the end of this because I think they all colluded, even though the group didn't want to get their hands dirty. They said one soldier out. It's a group. I think there's basic envy towards somebody who was leading a great life. They couldn't stand it. Does that fit in with many, of these cohorts of his leading a secret life as a furry? We know, Nancy, I'm kind of sad that furries have gotten drawn into this because by and large, the furries are sort of a diverse community of people who are fun-loving. They like to

Starting point is 00:37:55 have personal expression. They talk about wearing fur suits, which they'll spend months making. Bethany, Charlie Kirk had his throat torn out. I appreciate your defense of the furies. But can we please focus on the murder? Okay, well, Nancy, there is a small portion of the furry community. They talk about expressing their personalities, wearing their fur suits. But a small portion of them have fetishes in that dressing up as an animal is very sexualized. Now, interestingly, the shooter made a reference to his bulge, telling me that he equated shooting Charlie Kirk with having an erection,

Starting point is 00:38:37 meaning that there was a sexual thrill in shooting him in the throat. So we have envy, we have school shooting psychology, we also have sexual excitement, which tells me that you have a group of followers online who in some ways have also fetishized killing. I don't think this makes the furry community look very good.

Starting point is 00:38:59 I don't think this has to do with furries. I think this has to do with the group of... Nobody's running from this. geniality right now, Dr. Bethany. And what I try to ask you was, is part of a rich fantasy life, pretending you're an animal, okay? If you're already living in another realm, is this just a part of your pretend world? I mean, Kirk is dead. And whether they were going along gleefully, it wasn't real, they were going along with it in real life, whether they were going along with it in real life, whether they meant to or not.

Starting point is 00:39:37 The law presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act. And when you help encourage aid and abet someone to commit a murder, whether you're pretending or it's your fantasy, doesn't matter. The law assumes you intend the natural consequence of your act. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. And I want to point out that so many people are gleeful over murder. Listen to this. Real world consequences for hateful responses to Kirk's murder.

Starting point is 00:40:20 A surgeon resigned after loudly proclaiming Kirk got what he deserved. DC canceled a comic book series after just one issue because the artist posted, I hope the bullets okay. As quickly as they ran to social media to celebrate Kirk's death, many returned with news of their firings, many extremely angry or in tears over the shocking development. You don't hold me dead! You got shot in the head! You got a shot in the head! You don't hold me dead!

Starting point is 00:40:50 Good gravy! What was that, Sidney? What was that? Well, that was 18-year-old Cameron Giselle, who approached a student on campus who was standing. there holding a sign that said rest in peace Charlie Kirk and was decorated with photos of him. This was one student by himself standing there memorializing Kirk, not really speaking with anyone unless somebody approached him specifically. And Giselle felt the need to attack this person for standing out there with a memorial sign. So you saw her insane song that she was singing. She was getting in his space as other students got involved. Okay, wait a minute. You know what? You're glossing over the fact, Sidney. She said,

Starting point is 00:41:42 F your homie did, he got shot in the head. If your homie did. That's what she was saying. And that is from at AS private story on TikTok. Now, okay, I want you to see the nurse that called, this took some guts, called a surgeon on celebrating Kirkland. murder no I'm not fired as of right now right now I am suspended indefinitely unpaid why so I walked into the nurse's station and I just had learned about Charlie Kirk I saw this guy I didn't know who he was at the time and he was standing there and celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk saying how he deserved it he hated Charlie Kirk and he had it coming to him that mark

Starting point is 00:42:30 from our friends at Fox. That took a lot of guts to call out a surgeon. But there's more. So we came in for an order earlier for to print a poster for a vigil tonight. Yes. For somebody that passed. It's not, oh, so.

Starting point is 00:42:49 It's propaganda. I'm sorry. We don't put that here. It's propaganda. I'm sorry we don't print that here. What was that about, Sydney? So they were trying to hold a candlelight vigil for Charlie Kirk,

Starting point is 00:43:00 and they wanted posters printed at Office Depot for that vigil. And these employees refused to print them, calling them propaganda. So they were very pleasant in their conversation, but Office Max corporate had a huge problem with their behavior. FedEx ended up printing the posters for free after seeing this video, and those employees have been fired. That video is from at MD, appear no on ed. But here's the rub to Franz Borghardt, a veteran trial lawyer joining us out of Baton Rouge.

Starting point is 00:43:37 Franz, here's the deal. We may disagree with their behavior and what they're doing and what they're saying. We may think it's bloodthirsty and disgusting. Much like we feel when somebody burns the flag or has a poster that says F America or burns a beloved figure or political figure in effigy. We don't like it, but it's the First Amendment. So, now, refusing to do your job at Office Max or wherever that was is a whole other can of worms. But these people dancing on Charlie Kirk's grave are disgusting. Whether you agree with Kirk or not, doesn't matter.

Starting point is 00:44:18 The guy was murdered. His children don't have a father. I don't think they can be prosecuted, not at all for saying whatever they want to say. So here's where the rubber meets the road, Nancy. If they're in a state where there's inciting violence laws, and generally those can be felonies, those are not going to withstand a First Amendment defense. You can't shout fire in a crowded theater. You cannot try to incite violence at a memorial.

Starting point is 00:44:46 People who do stupid stuff at their jobs, they're going to get fired. But depending on where these people are acting and what they are saying, they may not be able to escape some kind of arrest or criminal prosecution. And look, justifiably, if you're trying to incite violence at a memorial, I think you should be arrested. Hey, you're preaching to the choir. The investigation into the assassination of Charlie Kirk, husband and father, goes on. If you know or think you know anything about the plot to murder Kirk, please call toll free. 800, call FBI.

Starting point is 00:45:26 800. 225-5-3-2-4. Or 801-579-1400. You can go to tips.fbi.gov. And now we remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Andres LaHara, Citrus County Sheriff's Office, killed in the line of duty after 14 years of service. leaves behind a grieving wife, Michelle, and two sons without a father, Vincent and Nicholas,

Starting point is 00:46:02 American hero, Deputy Sheriff on Dress LaHara. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an IHeart podcast.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KIRK SHOOTING SUSPECT'S FRIENDS & "FURRIES" EYED

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