Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KOHBERGER BACK IN COURT AS IDAHO BRINGS BACK FIRING SQUAD

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Koberger now pointing the finger at another home invader with a ski mask and a knife. Koberger back in court as Idaho brings back the firing squad. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. My niece called and she was very frantic and she was asking me if I had talked to Kaylee. Kaylee's phone goes directly to voicemail, circling Maddie. Nobody's answering. It's ringing, ringing, ringing, ringing.

Starting point is 00:00:50 We turn on the TV and then we see live news coverage at Kaylee's house. 1-2-0. Kaylee and Maddie are both dead. A quadruple homicide. Idaho lawmakers so moved by the slaughter of four beautiful University of Idaho students, they are bringing back the firing squad as a potential first choice of execution in death penalty cases. This as we learn that Brian Koberger's defense is actually going to try pointing the finger at another masked home invader with a knife. Listen. Where did you see this person? I was asleep and then I woke up me. Okay. And it was just me and Sadie home at the time and we both lived down the basement. And my door was closed. I heard my door open. And I looked over and someone was wearing a ski mask and had a knife like this. Okay. And so I like kicked the out of their stomach and screamed super loud. And they like, flew back into my closet and then ran out my door and up the stairs. It almost makes me think that somebody was specifically targeting that person.

Starting point is 00:02:09 You know what I mean? Like if they went to a specific room and would know how to get into this place. Wait a minute. Did you just hear what this female victim says? This was just a few months before the deadly slaying of four University of Idaho students. And the similarities are overwhelming. Now, what's the defense going to do with this? They're going to say, oh, that guy, some other dude did it. And it's that guy, because look at the similarities here, straight out to Sidney Sumner joining us,

Starting point is 00:02:45 CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. The victim, the female victim with another female roommate asleep with a multi-tiered, in a multi-tiered structure, living down in the basement, door closed. All of the things I'm emphasizing right now, Sidney, are direct similarities to the Idaho slayings. I heard my door open like the Idaho victims did. I looked over. Someone was wearing a ski mask, like allegedly Koberger wearing a mask. He had a knife, like Koberger allegedly had a knife. I screamed. They flew back and ran out my door and onto the stairs, like in the Idaho case, the officer. It makes me think someone specifically targeting that person,

Starting point is 00:03:43 like they went to a specific room and would know how to get into this place. Sydney, the similarities are stunning. Tell me about the home invasion, the other home invasion. Nancy, you're absolutely correct. And this happened in the early morning hours, again, just like we saw over a year later. Also, in this area of Idaho and Washington, the houses seem very similar. So these girls lived in a basement apartment. It's kind of a weird unit.

Starting point is 00:04:15 It's not like you would just walk up to the front door and expect a bedroom on the second floor, you know? It's a basement. So this video shows police searching this oddly built house. You can see that basement door down there, right there. And there's windows all over this building and odd places. It's extremely similar for Nancy. It's striking. And you know what you just said, Sid, that striking a court, another court in similarities. And I spent much of my career looking at prior transactions and comparing them to the case in chief in order to prove to a jury.

Starting point is 00:04:53 M.O. Modus operandi, method of operation, course of conduct, how it was affected in that case directly matches how it's affected in the case in chief. Frame of mind, in other words, scheme coming in the middle of the night, armed with a knife onto female victims, multiple victims in the same multi-church structure with a face covering. It sounds just like Koberger. Joining me right now is Chris McDonough. You know him well, director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, and has visited the crime scene multiple times. You can see him as a star of the interview room on YouTube. Chris McDonough, this is what I'm telling you, man. in the other home invasion, or B, the defense is going to use the other home invasion as their

Starting point is 00:05:48 defense, claiming that's the guy that did it, not Brian Koberger. Hey, Chris McDonough, I want you to listen to more of this Pullman PD body cam as the responding officer is talking to the victim. Listen. Sure, that's the one thing I noticed. Thick, thin? I couldn't say for sure, but I don't think either really. Side. So you're saying like a ski mask, any glasses or lenses or anything? It was burgundy. Pretty sure it was a burgundy ski mask.

Starting point is 00:06:23 I think they were wearing gloves. So did you hear them say? They didn't say a thing. They didn't say anything. Did they grunt or moan or exclaim or cry when you kicked them? Nothing. Just silence? Just silence. Pay dirt. Chris McDonough, while right now Koberger is not named as a POI, a suspect in any way in that home invasion, the similarities, the similarities are overwhelming.

Starting point is 00:06:56 Did you hear that? The perp not wearing glasses, wearing gloves and significantly, I'm going to have to go to shrink on this, silent throughout the attack. Jump in, Chris. Yeah, there's no doubt, Nancy, that those similarities have got to be investigative considerations, especially after the brutal murder here of the four college students. And if this is what we would call a pre incident to that particular, you know, murder, then, you know, you're going to have to start with those victims and kind of on re engineer it from there and canvas the neighborhood and then see if you can

Starting point is 00:07:39 match the similarities to the suspect in custody, i.e. allegedly Brian Kohlberger. I mean, we've said it over and over and over that could this possibly be Brian Kohlberger's first offense? Do you go from zero to 120 MPH overnight? Many people argue no. Is this the smoking gun, according to police right now, they're not saying Koeberger had anything to do with this previous home invasion. Listen to more of that body cam. So the windows come open, but there's no touch marks on the glass and like all the cobwebs are intact. Like nobody tried to move anything? Yeah. Yeah. So maybe they just unlocked it. Yeah. Like maybe they thought it would be easier to get out that way. Okay, right there, even more similarities. Did you hear that?

Starting point is 00:08:41 There's no touch marks. All the cobwebs are intact. So this person ends up going up the stairs. Just as in the Idaho slays, as of right now, we don't have any indication of any fingerprints or touch marks. And there's more. Listen. I'm wondering why they didn't come into my room because my room is closer. Yeah. So we were talking about that and it may, so she thought you had a television on. I did. I had my t-shirt. That was the only thing that I could bring outside

Starting point is 00:09:16 your room. So maybe they like knew that I was awake. Between the light and the sound, they probably assumed that you were awake. Which I was. I was wide awake. I was just laying in my bed. Significant. You hear the victim talking, saying, I wonder why they didn't come into my room. My room is closer. We had the same issue in the Idaho Slays, Chris McDonough, because you had Dylan Mortensen downstairs. Remember? And many people wonder, well, why didn't he go into that room first? Same thinking. These two perps have the same thought process going. Why didn't they go into that door?

Starting point is 00:09:57 And then also, you hear the victim's roommate saying, I was wide awake. I was just lying in bed. Did he know I was awake? Clearly, the state believes that Brian Koberger had been monitoring the victim's movements. Did he know they had just ordered food and that some of them may be between asleep and awake in that groggy state? It's a fingerprint ID, Chris McDonough. Yeah, Nancy. And I think, you know, one of the most interesting similarities to this situation is obviously the fact that the perpetrator had a knife. And that's a very personal type of weapon that would be utilized. But there's going to be another hurdle, though, that they're going

Starting point is 00:10:45 to have to overcome. That's going to be, obviously, the physical description of the suspect and the fact that the victim attacked the suspect and he cowered and ran. Somebody who has the frame of mind to commit a homicide forward would have taken that as a control issue. And he probably would have overwhelmed that victim. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, a renowned psychoanalyst out of the L.A. jurisdiction, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock. She's at DrBethanyMarshall.com.

Starting point is 00:11:30 Dr. Bethany, in your world, these similarities are startling. And again, police are not saying that Koberger affected this home invasion just a few miles away from the University of Idaho slay, a few months before the slay. But look at the similarities, Dr. Bethany. And in your world, I find it very significant that both perps remained silent. Again, Bethany, there's only two choices, Bethany. Now you're coming at it from your angle. I'm coming at it from mine. What, if anything, is probative to me as I prepare a case like this? Number one, either it is Koberger that performed that home invasion or it's not Koberger and the defense is going to use it as one of their chief defenses. Some other dude did it and that's the dude. What about both perps remaining silent?

Starting point is 00:12:28 Nancy, serial killers practice for years before they work up the nerve to commit a crime, okay? So, Kohlberger's whole academic career was a form of practicing. He took crime classes. He was, you know, it's like a teacher's aide in a crime class. He went to bars. He took crime classes. He was a, you know, it's like a teacher's aid in a crime class. He went to bars. He hit on women. Serial killing is an obsession. So Koberger probably thought about this for months, years. It was an obsession. He, in his mind, thought out what kind of a house he wanted to enter. He probably spent hours trying to find victims. He liked certain personalities, certain relationship configurations within the house. Perhaps in his fantasy life, he was going to go to the second floor in both crimes,

Starting point is 00:13:20 kill two victims, and then come back to the ones who were more accessible so they could hear the screaming of the other victims as an act of sadism. The silence, I think, is that he was preparing himself for the crime. In respect to becoming emboldened, the first time the perp ran away, if that was Koberger, the second time he was probably prepared to be kicked. So he got his courage up to commit the crime in a second location. I don't like him looking like he did a white collar crime. This isn't a white collar crime. This is people,

Starting point is 00:13:59 you work your whole life to get them to go to college and then they get killed while they're asleep that night? In their beds. And we're going to treat this guy like he just, like, traded insider trading of his own company stocks? It's not white collar. Will another home invasion just a few months before the four beautiful University of Idaho students were slaughtered in their own beds have anything to do with the Koberger death penalty case? four beautiful University of Idaho students were slaughtered in their own beds, have anything to do with the Koberger death penalty case. This, as Idaho plans to bring back the firing squad as a primary means of execution,

Starting point is 00:14:37 hopefully just in time for Koberger's conviction and sentencing, we'll see. And what does cult mom Lori Vallow have to do with Brian Koberger? Plenty. All of this with the backdrop of Koberger's defense claiming the death penalty is inhumane because it forces Koberger to wait on death row and worry. Okay, we'll get to that, but first to this home invasion that occurred just a few months before the quadruple slay. Now look again at this body cam video we obtained from Pullman PD. Listen. Short. That's the one thing I noticed. Thick, thin? I couldn't say for sure, but I don't think either really. Side.

Starting point is 00:15:32 So you're saying like a ski mask, any glasses or lenses or anything? It was burgundy. Pretty sure it was a burgundy ski mask. So I think they were wearing gloves, yeah. So did you hear them say? They didn't say a thing. They didn't say anything. Did they grunt or moan or exclaim or cry when you kicked them? Nothing.

Starting point is 00:15:54 Just silence. Just silence. Joining me is Scott Eicher, founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team. Scott, thank you for being with us. A former police officer, former homicide detective with Norfolk, Virginia PD. Scott, the likelihood that two perps will enter a multi-tiered structure with multiple female victims inside around the same time of the night, a few miles apart, a few months apart with the same MO with a face mask, with a knife. What are the odds? Right. I know you're not a statistician. So let me talk to you about the fact that neither of these perps that we know of yet left behind fingerprints or really any DNA other than what we know about on the knife sheath.

Starting point is 00:16:47 How likely is that, Iker, if it's not the same person? I think it is the same person. I agree with Bethany that serial killers, I've got to practice their situations. This was an attempt. He got foiled by Kitt. And then all the similarities that you guys just talked about really brings that as a detective and homicide detective and an FBI agent, we look for those similarities between crimes to connect them. And this is definitely one of those that seems just like a prior attempt

Starting point is 00:17:20 that was foiled. Thank God. Today, Dr Kendall Crowns, joining us, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth, esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Dr. Crowns, thank you for being with us. You know, I have tried, investigated, and investigated countless homicides. I don't know how many. Usually, knifing someone to death is not the mode of death. It's not the COD cause of death. There are, I would say, more gunshot wounds and more asphyxiations, more vehicular manslaughter. Knifing someone to death, I think, is a more unique COD. What do you think? Well, I would agree with that. Usually what we see with homicides are gunshot wounds, specifically nine millimeters. With stabbings, you have to get up close and personal. It's usually a domestic or someone that knows the victim or, you know, and has been

Starting point is 00:18:19 discussed, serial killers. Strangulations, again, too, are not as common as stab wounds. So, you know, when you look at the causes of death, gunshot wound far outweighs stabbing. Wait, are you saying asphyxiation is more or less common? Because in my experience, knife attacks are less common than asphyxiation. When you look at all of the homicides, you've got bludgeoning, which by far beats out knifing. You've got asphyxiation, which I believe beats out knifing. And of course, gunshot wounds, as you led off with that, by far beats out knifings. So my personal experience, I've seen, of course, the majority of gunshot wounds, but I've seen more stabbings than strangulations, because strangulation, you really gotta get up in there

Starting point is 00:19:11 to strangle them. So, a weapon usually trumps out using your bare hands. So, I would say stabbing is not as common, and a spree stabbing, as you're seeing in this type of situation, is very uncommon, where they stab multiple individuals at the same time. OK, I want to take that pathology and apply it to the current case and the current similar transaction we're discussing, which would be the previous home invasion. And again, Koeberger not named as a POI or suspect in that case. But either he did it and he is the similar or he didn't do it and

Starting point is 00:19:48 the defense is going to use it against the state. What I'm getting at, Dr. Kendall Crowns, is the likelihood of a spree stabbing where a perp goes into a multi-tier structure around the same time of the night, a few miles apart, planning to attack more than one female with a knife. I find that highly coincidental. Well, I agree with you. It's very odd. And it's like, I think he got spooked and then moved on to the next house that he had been casing. You know, you kind of look at, for example, BTK was another criminology student. He had one of his stories as he was casing a victim and something occurred and he got spooked. He moved on and then waited and came back again.

Starting point is 00:20:35 So it could be the similarities are very eerily similar. He could have just gotten spooked by that first person and moved on. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me is a veteran trial lawyer, Brian Stewart, Attorney Parker McConkle. Brian, thank you for being with us. Brian, can we talk very quickly about the introduction under the Constitution of what we call similar transactions? In this case, really a fingerprint crime. The only difference is those two female victims didn't lose their

Starting point is 00:21:18 lives. Everything else is startlingly similar. What do you think? Well, it seems entirely speculative whether or not this person is Brian Kohlberger, but it's likely the same person. But there's no question the defense would want to use this to undermine the prosecution's case, saying that there's someone else out there. But in my mind, it shouldn't come in because it's speculative. And I think that the prosecution is going to have a good argument to keep it out. To Sydney Sunner joining me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, can we talk about the home invasion? Okay. How far away was it from the quadruple murder scene? Nancy, minutes, 10 minutes. And another thing that I wanted to

Starting point is 00:22:11 mention, the victim in the home invasion was also a waitress. So she was no longer a student, but she was waitressing and still living with roommates who were in college. I found that also really striking that some of the Idaho college victims a year later, waitresses at a restaurant. So that's an interesting possibility. And as you were talking through your theories, I came up with one of my own. What if Brian Koberger took inspiration from this? What if he did his research and is trying to pass as this original home invader with a knife? You know, Sydney, do you remember when we were in Idaho and we went to the Greek restaurant where at least one of the victims worked? Others hung out there and we watched people coming in and out.

Starting point is 00:22:59 There's a steady flow of college students, non-college students. And we watched and got that horrible, eerie feeling that Koberger had come in and out of the restaurant as he watched the victims. And now you're telling me that in the other home invasion, the victim, one of them was a waitress? That is absolutely correct. She worked at Zoe's in Pullman, Washington. It's a cafe. So similar restaurant again. It's very striking. I mean, Scott Eicher, don't you see where this is going? The defense is going to win either way on this because they're going to say, A, it's not him, number one. And that's the guy that did it.

Starting point is 00:23:49 And if Koberger did do the other home invasion, it can't be brought in as a similar transaction unless it can be proven he did the other home invasion. So the state right now is hogtied on this. I agree. It sounds like because of the short time of that home invasion, you know, guy comes in, he kicks him, he falls down and leaves. He probably didn't leave like a knife like he did in this in the quadruple homicide. So what evidence do they have to show that that prior incident was was covert? That's going to cause a problem, I think. And I think both ways, hopefully it can't be brought in from either side. The person who did this crime looked at one of the victims and said, I'm here to help. If that's not malice, that's the most type of evil that you could ever hear. That shouldn't be rewarded with a suit and a fresh

Starting point is 00:24:50 haircut every time. And somehow cult mom Lori Vallow rears her ugly head in the middle of all of this. What does she have to do with the Brian Koberger quadruple murder prosecution? Here she is in court. Listen. So the defense, we keep filing motions for discovery since we don't know if it's some kind of strategy of the state that they're holding back this actual evidence of conspiracy in hopes that what the defendant

Starting point is 00:25:26 won't have time to prepare proper defense against the evidence that comes forward at the last minute this court has denied every motion the defense has filed to acquire this evidence okay wait a minute wasn't she claiming a mental defect did you hear her reeling off the law and the facts? She's representing her case in another murder-related case. We got that from our friends at eastidahonews.com. Yes, somehow, cult mom Lori Vallow has insinuated herself into the Brian Koberger case. Listen. Koberger's defense appears to be taking a page out of Lori Vallow Daybell's trial where Judge Stephen Boyce removed the death penalty after prosecutors failed to turn over thousands of documents and hundreds of hours of jail phone calls until three weeks before the

Starting point is 00:26:14 trial. But the key difference between the cases is that Vallow Daybell insisted on a speedy trial while Koberger has waived that quick timeline. With more than six months remaining until trial, Judge Hibbler has plenty of other remedies available before taking such a drastic measure. Straight out to Sidney Sumner, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Sidney, what does call mom Lori Vallow have to do with Brian Koberger? So, Nancy, what the defense is arguing in Koberger's case is that the state's expert witness list was not complete. They're saying that it's too vague, it's overbroad, not everyone is named. So they are threatening to try

Starting point is 00:26:53 and get this death penalty stricken again if that expert witness list is not amended. So that's exactly what happened in Lori Vallow's case. The judge who saw this huge failure to turn over evidence to the defense with only three weeks away from trial really had no choice but to employ this extreme remedy of taking the death penalty off the table. There was no way the defense could possibly sit through all of that evidence at the last second. Okay, Brian Stewart with me, veteran trial lawyer. Brian, I don't want to go DEFCON 4 on this, get too far in the weeds, but the problem in Colt Momlory Vallow's case, she had a speedy, a speedy trial demand. And if the state didn't try it within a certain amount of time, which

Starting point is 00:27:41 varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, there would be a total acquittal. Repeat, if the state didn't try it within a certain period of time, there would be an outright acquittal. So the deal struck was the judge took the DP death penalty off the table. We don't have that problem here, but the defense is trying it. They're saying because the expert witness list is not complete. We don't have a trial for months and months and months to go that the DP should be taken off the table. That's what they're doing right now. Agree, disagree. Well, in this situation, the constitutional protections that we have are more important than any one case. And so if the prosecution didn't turn over this information in charge, it's that they should have turned over, it's in all of our

Starting point is 00:28:25 best interest that evidence be excluded, even if it damages the prosecution's case in this situation. You know, speaking of the death penalty in this case, everybody sit down for this, the latest defense argument. You may need to lay down for this one. Listen to the death penalty argument made by the defense. I don't believe that our constitution allows for us to move forward and make him sit on death row for years and years and years. And the way Idaho's doing it right now isn't really working. It's not a realistic option. I think to have him sit on death row and say, Idaho's going to figure out how to kill you at some point in the future in a way that isn't cruel and unusual and in violation of your rights. I just don't think that the constitutional

Starting point is 00:29:18 protections allow that to happen. Really, Chris McDonough, former homicide detective, star of the interview room. Wait, is she saying, well, if you kill him now, I'm fine with the death penalty. But if you make him wait, tick, tick, tick, tick, that's inhumane. Am I hearing her? Can she hear herself? Yeah. Can you believe it, Nancy? I mean, can you can you picture the founding fathers, you know, signing all the documents that have made this country great, thinking, you know what, there's going to be a guy named Brian Koberger who's going to have to sit for quite some time and the state's going to have to figure it out.

Starting point is 00:29:53 It's just ludicrous. Just a really shallow argument. I mean, Chris McDonough, I'm looking at my notes that I took on Ann Taylor's argument. She's really good lawyer. I mean, she's grasping at straws here, but what can she do? And my big note was, ha ha, waiting equals cruel, unusual punishment under the Constitution. And again, ha ha. So I guess she's okay if they kill him immediately. That would be the argument. But that's not all. Listen to more of Taylor's argument. We think that the court ought to strike the death penalty

Starting point is 00:30:26 in this case and not allow the case to go forward as a death penalty case because Idaho does not have a current means of executing anybody. When somebody sits on death row and there's no real means of executing them, that is dehumanizing to that person. That's similar. Say there's no real means of executing them, that is dehumanizing to that person. That's similar. Say there's no means. Under Idaho law, the method of execution is lethal injection, and if unavailable, then the firing squad. You rely significantly on the idea that lethal injection is not available

Starting point is 00:31:04 based upon the quote-unquote botched execution of Mr. Creech. Dr. Bethany Marshall, please help me. Okay, not in a professional capacity, of course, but Dr. Bethany, she is now saying Koberger is going to have to wait to find out how he's going to be executed. What about the victim's families? Just hold on just one moment. They know how their daughters and son were murdered. They were knifed to death. They were slaughtered like animals in a slaughterhouse.

Starting point is 00:31:40 Okay. But yet Koberger getting three hots in a cot paid for by me and you? That's inhumane compared to what the victim's families go through the rest of their life? Nancy, Koberger loves to wait. He spent his whole life waiting. His whole life waiting to become a serial killer. Waiting is not a problem for him. And when you think about the psychology of serial killers, they are so filled and full

Starting point is 00:32:08 of sexually deviant, sadistic fantasies that often there are long periods of time between actual slayings because they are very satisfied with their fantasy life. In some ways, this is like a dream come true for him. He doesn't have to him. He doesn't have to work. He doesn't have to support himself. He can just fantasize all day long. This is not more delicately than I would fantasizing. What he's going to do is sit behind bars and masturbate to the memory of what he did. if in fact he's proven guilty. I think that's what you're saying. You know what, Dr. Bethany, I appreciate your delicate nature,

Starting point is 00:32:55 but we are talking about the murder of four young Idaho students, brutally, literally butchered like animals. And Sidney Sumner, our investigative reporter, let me just clarify one thing. The defense is whining about what all another killer Thomas Creech went through before the DP. Bottom line, they couldn't find a vein. I never had a nurse in the hospital the whole time I was in there after delivery that could find a vein. Okay. It happens all the time. That's the problem. They couldn't find his vein. That is in fact what they are complaining about. Yep. He must've been dehydrated that morning, just like so many people are in the hospital on a day-to-day basis. And that is their argument that lethal injection is not available.

Starting point is 00:33:44 Coberger's defense team has hired cell phone expert Cy Ray to testify in support of Koberger's alibi. The former police officer and founder of ZX bases his analysis on the pings that a cell phone sends to a nearby tower using the software Trax. But many have questioned the reliability of Ray's data. Many other experts say Trax's methodology is not based in science, and a Colorado judge has even banned prosecutors from using the software in their cases.

Starting point is 00:34:09 Scott Eicher joining us, founder member, FBI cellular analysis survey team. We now know that cellular and digital data is a big bone of contention in the trial. What's happening, Scott? Well, we know that the police department, with the assistance of the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, got data from Mr. Kohlberger's phone. Not only did they get it on the night of the Guadalupe homicide, but they also got it prior to that time and afterwards. So we can see that information what they have found is that on the night of the quadruple homicide he had turned his phone off he turned it off for a good amount of time i think it was for about two and a half hours um and what they also did see is that he had left his house in pullman and gone south, but then he turned his phone off while he's supposedly committing the crime, and then on the way back home, turned his phone back on.

Starting point is 00:35:14 We see this all the time in criminals that don't want their phone to be tracked to the scene of the crime. We did this in bank robbery cases. We'd follow the guys days before where they'd go scout out the bank, leaving their phones on, and then the day of the crime, turn it off, thinking that that wouldn't show that they're there. But we could see that pattern of life that's going to be helpful to the prosecution. And now the Amazon order of the knife, we believe, is the murder weapon. More analysis reveals more evidence. Listen. This is the search warrant. These ASIN numbers are basically inventory control numbers for Amazon. This is the Amazon ASIN that I put in. And this is the amazon asin that i put in and this is the product that came up and the other search warrants started to chase the receipts to amazon to walmart

Starting point is 00:36:16 for and the banks they started pushing search warrants out to the banks and they were they were looking for a money trail that purchased potentially a weapon like this. Okay, joining me, Chris McDonough from the interview room. And that was from the interview room on YouTube. You know, Chris McDonough, you and I talk a lot about what one single piece of evidence can prove, that it can prove so many different things,

Starting point is 00:36:41 not just that Koberberger ordered the murder weapon, according to the state. But your analysis reveals so much more evidence. In a nutshell, what? So, Nancy, that could be gold, you know, to your point, right? That Amazon number, just think of it as like a VIN number for a car. It's a product number that every, like 350 million products that go through Amazon have.

Starting point is 00:37:06 And those numbers are unique to each of those products. So once they discovered that knife that came up, then they're going to chase the money on that. And that money trail in of itself will be able to if you can get a receipt on that, then that's going to give you a time, dates, you know, those kinds of things. And then you can really get into the head of Kohlberger at the time he was making these purchases. So that's going to lead into a whole new direction for the investigation. What kind of direction?

Starting point is 00:37:42 Well, it'll give you, you know, pre-incident behavior. It'll give you his thought process. It will also lead into, you know, the type of, you know, why he's purchasing that particular knife. Is there a sexual motivation? Is there, you know, going down those lines? So is it a fantasy that he's buying this knife remember that knife is a is almost a symbol of a phallic symbol in relationship to this type of attack

Starting point is 00:38:17 because i don't know how you're going to get that off an amazon order history but i trust you the defense is also moving to suppress Koberger's statements the night of his arrest, which begs the question, did the accused quadruple murderer incriminate himself? Koberger's attorneys claim when Koberger was held at gunpoint and had his hands zip-tied, he made statements to the officers surrounding him, despite not having been read his rights. The defense further wants any statements Koberger made in transport and without an attorney present during interrogation at the Monroe County Correctional Facility stricken. The harder the defense fights a particular point, the more damaging and probative it is for the state. Now we are learning the defense is fighting tooth and nail to keep statements out. To Sidney

Starting point is 00:39:03 Sumner, investigative reporter, what statements? They have not been revealed, but we see they're arguing about statements that he made at the time police showed up to the parents Pocono's home, statements he made in transit and more. So in order to argue, we want these statements to be suppressed, number one, the statements have to be made, so there are statements, and number two, they have to be something incriminating to the point the defense is fighting to have them suppressed. Get it? said. But we do know that that was a dynamic entry into the house. The entire family was surrounded by officers held at gunpoint. So this must have been a very stressful situation. So is he begging for mercy? Is he telling them he's surrendering? Is he admitting some form of guilt, just enough of a nugget for someone to twist that in a way to make it incriminating? We don't know, but it will be interesting to find out if that evidence makes it into court. Yeah. And you know, Chris McDonough

Starting point is 00:40:11 joining me, a veteran homicide detective, star of the interview room on YouTube. Chris, it doesn't have to be, I didn't do it. It could be, I was in Hawaii when that happened. It could be, I don't know anything about the slay of the four students before the four students have even been mentioned. It could be any number of things that may not be an outright confession, but indicate intimate knowledge of the murders. Yeah. And those spontaneous utterances like that are just beautiful because, you know, there's no pressure in relationship to the subject. Just kind of asking a question. Sometimes they're even questions. Right, Nancy? I mean, how many of your defendants have asked the cops questions when they first hook them up? Like, you know, anybody else arrested? Why are you arresting me? Those are those are those are great statements. You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, when people are trying to lie and they don't have their statement ready, they can say any number of things that are tells, that are telling, not necessarily an outright confession. information rolling around in that head about the crimes, right? How much time he spent stalking the

Starting point is 00:41:25 victims, what time the murder took place, how the bodies were left. I mean, the information that could come out of his mouth is endless. And if his anxiety level is high, he's not going to be able to think clearly about what he knows that he shouldn't know. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KOHBERGER BACK IN COURT AS IDAHO BRINGS BACK FIRING SQUAD

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