Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KOHBERGER BOMBSHELL: ROOMMATE SEES XANA DEAD ON FLOOR, SPOTS MASKED INTRUDER, MOTIVE REVEALED | The Idaho Murders

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

*New Kohberger Evidence Reveals What Idaho Roommates Saw the Night of the Murders According to court documents, one of the surviving roommates, identified as "D.M."—referring to Dylan Mortensen—saw one of the victims lying on the floor hours before calling 911. On the night of the killings, around 4 a.m., D.M. saw a man dressed in all black wearing a ski mask. She called and texted her roommates but only received a response from "B.F."—identified in the documents as Bethany Funke—who told her to run into her bedroom. As Mortensen ran toward Funke’s room, she allegedly saw Xana Kernodle lying on the floor of her bedroom, with her head near the wall and her feet pointing toward the door. The two survivors exchanged more texts throughout the night. Bryan Kohberger is accused of killing University of Idaho students Madison Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin at an off-campus home in Moscow, Idaho, on November 13, 2022. Joining Nancy Grace today: Howard Blum - Author: "When The Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for The Idaho Student Murders;" INSTA: howard_blum_author TW/X: howardblum Joshua Ritter - Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Prosecutor, Host of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube; X, Instagram & TikTok: @joshuaritteresq, YouTube: CRConfidential Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author of"Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away;” Also featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective [worked over 300 Homicides in 25 year career], Trained the First Native American Homicide Task Force; Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room" Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensic Scott Eicher -  A Founding Member of the FBI’s Cellular Analysis Survey Team (C.A.S.T); Historical Cellular Analysis Expert; Former FBI agent of 22 years; Former Police Officer and Homicide Detective with Norfolk, Virginia, Police Dept. having served 12 years; Has worked several missing persons cases. Currently with Precision Cellular Analysis handling Criminal, Defense and Civil Case Sydney Sumner - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A Brian Koberger bombshell did a survivor roommate actually see her roommate, Zanna, lying dead on Zanna's bedroom floor and spots the masked intruder wearing all black and tonight motive revealed. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Did one of these surviving young women, a young girl, actually see Zanna Kurnodle's dead body lying on her bedroom floor prone, mistaking it for alcohol consumption, then spots the masked intruder that the state says was none other than Ph.D. student Brian Koberger. But also tonight, did two of the roommates nearly collide with the killer? Listen.

Zanna Cronodal and Ethan Chapin head straight to Zanna's room when they get in from a Sigma Chi party at 145. But Kaylee González and Madison Mogan chat with Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk in Kaylee's room when they arrive about 20 minutes later. The smell of Kaylee and Madison's grub truck snacks make Bethany and Dylan debate going back out for their own. 2.10 a.m., Dylan texts a friend to see if they're willing to give them a ride, but getting no reply, the girls decide to head to bed and say their goodnights. Straight out to Sidney Sumner, a Crime Stories investigative reporter. Sidney, they really wanted to go back out and get something to eat. Finally, opting for just let's order some DoorDash.

It's like four o'clock in the morning. And yet there were still food trucks and restaurants and bars still open. And at the last minute before they leave, they go, ah, let's just order. If they had gone out as they were planning to do, they would have collided with the killer, Sydney. That's quite possible, Nancy. We believe the killer was in that home 4.07 a.m. ish. That's that timeline. We know Zanna was still active on her phone on TikTok until 4.12 a.m., just a few minutes after she received that DoorDash order. Now, it was Bethany and Dylan who were debating going out and getting more food after meeting with their other roommates, Kaylee and Madison. So these girls were just minutes away, one decision away from that night turning out possibly much differently than it did.

That would have been victims five and six. Joining me in all-star panel, but I want to go to former FBI Scott Eicher, and we'll go back to him in a moment regarding the cell data because he's an expert in that. But Scott, you've seen so many cases with the FBI all across our country, and I've prosecuted, investigated so many cases where just on a whim, like an angel on your shoulder, you make a split decision and you save your life or you lose your life. If they had done that, Scott Eicher, they would have collided with Brian Koberger with his K-bar knife and his black ninja suit on, and they would have been victims five and six, according to the prosecution.

I totally agree in that the fact that it's random. You know, a simple decision can change the lives of people. Did you go this way? Did you turn right? Did you turn left? Did you make this decision? Did you not make this decision? And thank God there's not five and six victims.

But it can be random in the aspect that what happens if they actually walk into this guy? Does he turn to walk away? And everybody's OK. Do they get murdered themselves, too? It's it's that's the way it occurs in every case. According to the prosecution, he entered the King Road address with murder on his mind, and he had been planning it for at least eight months when he ordered the K-Bar knife from Amazon. That's how far back the murder plot goes. And we're about to get into motive. But at this moment tonight, the timeline is crystallizing.

It's becoming even more clear. Listen, Kaylee and Madison finished their food, then lay in bed chatting until they drift off to sleep. Zaina places a door dash order that arrives at 4 a.m. and is active on TikTok until 4 12 a.m. Around that time, Dylan Mortensen hears strange noises and what sounds like crying upstairs peeks her head out of the room and comes face to face with a man clad in all black. The only part of his body that isn't

covered, his eyes. Now scared, Dylan places calls to her roommates. Bethany is the only one who answers. The girls talk at 419, then again at 420 before they switch to texting about the stranger in their home. And we have those texts. We're about to play them for you. But because they're both afraid in two separate bedrooms and one of their cell phones is going dead, it's like out of a horror movie. One convinces the other one to take a dash and run to the other bedroom. And it's then that we believe one of the surviving girls spots Zanna dead on the floor. Listen. Bethany convinces Dylan to run to her room. In her dash downstairs, Dylan sees Zanna on the floor with her feet toward the door and her head toward the wall

in her room. The girls cower in Bethany's room until they fall asleep for just a few restless hours. When they wake up, Bethany and Dylan decide to call friends to check the house at 1149 a.m. And at that juncture, she was still assuming that Zanna was passed out from alcohol consumption. You know, to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us right now, Psycho Alice joining us out of the L.A. jurisdiction, author of Deal Breaker at DrBethanyMarshall.com. You can see her on Peacock now. Dr. Bethany, why is it that our mind goes to the most, let me say, the least threatening scenario? Because when Dylan runs by, she sees Zanna prone on the floor, stretched out. But she thinks, oh my, she's passed out drunk and keeps running. It never occurs to her.

She's been stabbed dead. And the killer is in the house. You know, Nancy, this is a scene out of a horror movie. I cannot imagine the fear, the panic, even the courage just to leave her room and run to the other girl's room. But when she sees her lying on the floor, of course, she's going to think it's alcohol because we interpret events out of our own past experience. And if they were kids who like to party and have fun and enjoyed each other and maybe occasionally imbibed a little too much alcohol. That's the interpretive lens through which she's going to look at that

experience or look at that prone body on the floor. On the other hand, they are in a panic. So they're kind of going back and forth between fear, panic, and, oh, she just had a little too much to drink. It sounds like a chaotic and confusing situation. I don't understand. I'm just a JD, not a shrink like you, but I'm projecting when my fiance was murdered and I was first told that he was gone, I just assumed he had had a crash, some kind of a car wreck. But my mind never went to the fact that he had been shot five times in the face and the head and the back. That's just not where your mind goes. So I get it. And these victims have been assailed and attacked. Why did they wait so long to report the attack? What were they doing? Well,

now we're learning what happened in those hours. Now, listen to this. When Dylan and Bethany emerge from Bethany's room to meet their friends, Dylan sees Zanna in the same position as the night before. Dylan bursts into tears, worried that she may have serious alcohol poisoning. Moments later, one of the men comes outside and instructs the girls to call 911 now. Bethany connects with a dispatcher at 1156 a.m. Okay, to Sydney Sumner, Crime Stories investigative reporter, explain what we just heard. So we know that Dylan saw Zanna passed out in her room the next morning.

They are too scared to come out of Bethany's room without asking friends to come and check the house. So we're now learning new court documents. Hunter Johnson and a friend come over to the house to check on the girls, make sure nothing is out of place. And when Hunter Johnson gets to the house, he actually grabs a knife out of the kitchen before walking around the rest of the house because these girls are so scared. So that's when they see Zanna again, still passed out. Bethany and Dylan still think that maybe she just drank too much the night before, but it's odd that she isn't awake by now. So at this point, the girls get upset and their friends send them out of the house, tell them to calm down. We're going to check the rest of this out and we'll come back with you mean hunter the male friend they call him over because they're cowering in the bedroom they don't know what's happening they're thinking well she passed out

drunk where's everybody else what's happening who is that guy dressed all in black who who's that so they call hunter the friend he comes over and whatever they say to him, they're so afraid. He arms himself with a knife and says, you two go out. I'm going to go look. In the last days, Judge Hippler has made a big ruling. Hippler has ruled the texts sent between Dylan and Bethany, the two that survived, that were meant to survive to tell the tale in court. Those texts are coming into evidence and this is what they reveal. Listen. No one is answering. I'm really confused right now. Yeah, dude. What the? Zanna was wearing all black. I'm freaking out right now. No, it's like a ski mask almost. Shut the f*** up. Actually? Like he had something over his forehead and mouth. Bethany, I'm not kidding. I'm so freaked out. So am I. My phone

is going to die. F***. Come to my room. Run down here. I'm screwed though. Yeah, I know, but it's better than being alone. Joining me, veteran trial lawyer Joshua Ritter, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor and host of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube. Joshua, now I know why the defense fought tooth and nail to keep out the text messages. They corroborate what we are now learning about the timeline. Yeah, the defense was really aggressive on trying to keep this stuff out for a couple of reasons. Like you said, it corroborates the timeline, but they also know these are the only closest to eyewitnesses in this case, especially the one surviving roommate giving that description. So they need to cut the credibility of these witnesses as much as possible. And they're going to attack one, that their level of intoxication at that time

too. They're also saying that, listen, this is hearsay and it is hearsay, but it falls under certain exceptions. But they made these arguments to the judge, argued them vociferously that these should be kept out. You're right that they argued hearsay. It did not work on the texts. The texts are coming in, but portions of the 911 call are being suppressed. I can't believe that a portion of a 911 call, which is a contemporaneous communication. And the reason I'm using those words, that that's an exception to the hearsay rule. If the statements were made contemporaneous to the moment, but I want you to hear the 911 call and we'll find out why the defense wanted to keep it out. Tell me exactly what's going on.

One of our, one of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last night and she's not waking up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some man in their house last night. Yeah. Hi, is this the patient? And are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone.

Stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened pretty much? What is going on currently? Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4 a.m. Okay, I need to know what's going on right now if someone is passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on, but then now if someone has passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come.

Come on, but we need to go check. But we have to. At that point, the girls, Dylan and Bethany, are still hoping. I think even though deep inside they knew Zanna wasn't just passed out, she's still lying on the floor where she was hours before. But listen to the rest of the 911 call. She's not waking up. Okay, one moment. I'm getting help started that way. She's not waking up. Yeah. Okay.

One moment. I'm getting help started that way. Okay, thank you. Watch out! And then you hear the male friend Hunter yelling at Bethany and Dylan to get out, get out, go outside, get back out, because he must realize that they have all been stabbed dead. And you can hear her voice in the 911 call saying that they're not waking up. She's not waking up. And realization is setting in that Zanna is dead, lying on the floor.

Sidney, I'm perplexed as to why the judge has suppressed even any part of this 911 call. But I guess Hippler threw a bone to the defense. What is the judge suppressing out of the 911 calls? Nancy, it's three statements and really these are really hearsay. So the first caller that we hear who is a little bit calmer, not who is crying, labored breathing later, that caller is not one of the roommates. That is another friend and she is relaying information that's been told to her. One of the roommates. That is another friend. And she is relaying information that's been told to her. One of the roommates is passed out and not waking up. So that statement is the first one that's not coming into evidence. And then that caller continues her statement and says, oh,

and they saw a man in their house last night. So not only is that being relayed to her, but that's not talking about the scene that's going on around her so those two statements are not coming in and the third one is when bethany takes the phone and she's trying to tell the dispatcher can i just tell you what happened last night last night at 4 a.m and the dispatcher cuts her off she doesn't get any further than that but the dispatcher needs to know what's happening now so those three statements are what is going to be redacted from the 911 call when the jury hears it. Tell me exactly what's going on. One of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last night and she's not waking up.

Oh, and they saw some man in their house last night. Motive revealed. Why would Brian Koberger, according to the state, stalk and murder four innocent people at that King Road address? He had to watch them to see their comings and goings. What could possibly be the motive? He didn't even know them, according to the defense. Joining me now, expert Howard Bloom, author of When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. Howard, motive? The big question in this entire case has always been why? Why would someone enter the house, off-campus home of four students and brutally murder them in the hours before dawn? And all along, everyone has been coming up with hypotheses about what could have happened. Well now, the prosecution thinks they have put the pieces together. They believe that there's a direct link

from Dr. Katherine Ramsland to Brian Kohlberger. Dr. Ramsland had been his tutor, his professor at graduate school at DeSalle University when he went for his master's. He idolized her. She put him on a course to become a forensic psychologist. Well, wait a minute, wait a minute to become a forensic psychologist. Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute, Howard. Okay.

So she was his instructor. We know that. We know she's a renowned criminal investigator and professor. But how does that equal motive, Howard? Brian Kohlberger is someone who becomes obsessed easily. He was a heroin addict and then he kicked it. I believe he was obsessed with one of the victims in the King Road murder house. And I also believe he was obsessed with Katherine Ransom. I believe he, in a way, idolized her. He idolized all her accomplishments, and ability to look into the dark recesses of the criminal mind. But he even wanted to take it one step farther as his relationship grew. He wanted

to prove to her that he could be even better than she was in understanding the criminal mind, because he could commit the perfect crime. And this perfect crime that he was committing was in many ways, one can speculate, almost a love letter to Dr. Catherine Ramsland. He was trying to win her affection and her respect and his way of doing this in his bizarre sort of erotomania was to make this perfect crime as an homage to her. Howard Bloom has written the book, That's True When the Night Comes Falling, but I need a shrink.

Again, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I'm just a trial lawyer. What is he saying? Erotomania, what? What Howard Bloom is saying is that Brian Koberger was in love with his mentor. And because he was studying to become a clinical psychologist, a criminologist, he wanted to commit the perfect crime. Howard Bloom calls this erotomania. Erotomania is when somebody is in a very manic, excited state, and they believe that they are at the center of another person's attention. So

he believes that Dr. Ramsland is in love with him and he's going to prove that he's worthy of her love. Nancy, this makes no sense. I mean, honestly, she's a criminologist and he's going to commit a crime to impress her. I mean, logic, just there's nothing logical about that. I mean, let's say it were true. Did he take a trophy to give to her? Did he take pictures to show to her? I mean, it would be more understandable if he caught a killer to impress her, not becoming a killer. We are talking about potential motive, potential motive in this case. Was he so obsessed with Dr. Ramsland that he had grown to love her in an obsessive way? To Chris McDonough joining me,

a veteran homicide detective, director of Cold Case Foundation and star of the interview room on YouTube. I've seen murderers for a lot less, but obsession, definitely a motive I've seen many, many times. And it doesn't mean the defendant and the love object had ever been intimate, had ever even held hands or kissed. It's the obsession with Ramsland. That's what Howard Bloom is talking about, whether requited or not. Yeah, the challenge. So, Nancy, with the obsession aspect here with Dr. Ramsland is Brian Koberger hates women. Let's just start there. And his obsessive behavior was not around his professor, but rather his study of those who would commit mass murder. And so I think we need to dig a little bit deeper here. And again, I believe that at some point it will be shown that he was obsessed with serial killers.

Ted Bundy specifically. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Was Brian Koberger obsessed with Dr. Ramsland, one of his female instructors known as the consummate expert in the field? We know that also the defense fought again tooth and nail to keep out his thesis. The thesis regarding criminal behavior that he wrote, which delves into the criminal psyche. Listen. In arguments against its inclusion, the defense reveals that prosecutors plan to enter into evidence records from Kohlberger's graduate studies in psychology at DeSales University. The filing says they have received discovery including Kohlberger's school calendar, written coursework, testing, emails, and syllabi from his time as a master's student, and the attorneys failed to see its relevance. As part of his theses, Kohlberger worked with

professors to develop a survey exploring how emotions influence a criminal's decision-making during the commission of a violent crime. Wow, was that airbrushed or what? Sidney Sumner joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter. It wasn't just a survey. It wasn't just a black and white on a page report. He would ask these violent felons, how did you pick your victim? What did it feel like when you enacted the crime? In other words, when you stabbed someone or raped someone or killed someone, felt the life ebbing out of their body. What did that feel like? How did you get away?

What was your exit strategy. He wanted the gruesome details, the emotions these violent felons experienced in the throes of the murder. That's absolutely correct. This was not just a pick one of the below survey. It was extremely in-depth. He wanted to know exactly how that criminal felt as they committed their crime, their violent crime. In addition to that survey, prosecutors also wanted to introduce a report that he gave. And it was basically how he would go in and assess a crime scene if he was the lead investigator in a case first to the crime scene. And that case study was a stabbing of a woman more middle-aged than the victims in his actual criminal case. But I think prosecutors plan to use that just to demonstrate how much knowledge of crime scene cleanup Koberger has. Let me clarify something that you just said. In his study, his hypothetical victim was a white female alone that he stabbed with a knife inside a structure.

Isn't that true? Yes, that doctoral thesis that Koberger wrote, allowing that in. Now the state is never required to show motive, but here you've got, according to Bloom, Koberger's obsession, erotomania that Dr. Bethany explained to us with Ramsland, hand in hand, corroborated by this thesis. He's trying so hard to not only impress her, but to best her in his knowledge. What about it, Dr. Bethany? Well, I think one of the things he's doing, if we think of this crime as sexually motivated, then interviewing other criminals is almost like his pornography. It's one of the things he wants to read and reread.

He's obsessed with it. But I would say that that motivation also applies to Dr. Ramsland. That if there were a lot of media, that the excitement, the sexual excitement, the emotional excitement and being around her is that she's talking about crime. This is his crack, Nancy. This is the thing that he is most obsessed about. So if he were to be in love with somebody and if he were to believe that that love object reciprocates his affection, it would be something like Dr. Ramsland because they have this common interest in crime. Can I ask you something, Dr. Bethany? How does stabbing a young co-ed over and over, slicing her up, butchering her, how is that sexually

pleasing? In the DSM, we see that sexual sadism is one of the five perversions, exhibitionism, praterism, voyeurism, pedophilia. And the reason for that, Nancy, is that sociopaths have under arousal, inner emptiness. They can't get excited by normal events in life like you and I do. So committing cruelty, seeing the fear in a woman's eyes, feeling the knife slash through their body, all of these things are very sexually satisfying because they pair sadism and being hurtful with sexual excitement. In other words, it stimulates them out of that dead state. You know how we say with killers, they have dead eyes. They do have dead eyes because internally they are dead. But when they commit acts of cruelty, it brings them alive and they pair that with sexual excitement. And that's what drives the

crime. And then they relive it over and over and over for sexual excitement. Speaking of, and I'm sure Ramsland is not happy about this theory of motive that is now emerging according to Howard Bloom, but corroborating her relationship with him and his family. Let's go to Howard Bloom. Tell me about the connection between Ramsland and Koberger's family. Let's go to Howard Bloom. Tell me about the connection between Ramsland and Koberger's family. The relationship between Dr. Ramsland and the family began way before the trial, just days after Brian Koberger's arrest. His family gets a call from Dr. Ramsland asking if she can help, if she can help them in any way. She's not talking about his innocence or guilt. She's just concerned about a student and she wants to guide the family through this complicated process. The family told

lawyers involved, wait, we can't do anything until Dr dr rambling gives us approval to meet with you that vehicle one is first recorded in pullman at 2 44 a.m as it heads east on state route 270 in the direction of moscow at 302 a.m it's captured passing floyd's cannabis company located just off state route 270 at 3 26 a.m cameras at three different residences in the 700 block of Indian Hills Drive in Moscow pick up the same white sedan. Two minutes later, at 3.28 a.m., a camera at Sunset Mart in Moscow recorded the car turn west about half a mile away and head in the direction of the King Road house. It sounds to me, Scott Eicher joining me, founding member,

FBI's cast historical cellular analysis expert cast team. Scott, it sounds like they have got him in his vehicle starting at 2 44 a.m. And I'm going to explain how the vehicle is tracked all the way back to within one mile that night at 526 a.m. back to his apartment. Scott Eicher, how did they do it? That's one of the things that we teach in our classes is not only are you looking at the cell phone stuff, but the cell phone stuff can lead you to the paths that the vehicle or person took. So you can go look for cameras in that area. It's very helpful. It validates the cellular stuff. The cameras themselves are very helpful. And nowadays there's numerous cameras everywhere, houses, ring doors, businesses. It's very helpful. And if you can piece it together correctly and make a timeline, you can see that car, in this case, the white sedan traveling towards the crime scene.

That's fantastic evidence. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace scott eicher with us as we just reported he the vehicle the white elantra matching the description of his car pulls out at pullman where he lives that's about 10 minutes away from King Road, where the four students were murdered, at Pullman 244, heading East State Route 270 toward Moscow. 3.02 a.m., about 20 minutes later, it passes Floyd's Cannabis. That's just off 270. 3.26, cameras at three residences spot the Elantra at Indian Hills Drive. Okay. That's in Moscow. He's in Moscow picking up the same white Elantra. Two minutes later, 328 Sunset Mart, Moscow records the car turn and head toward the King Road house. Chris McDonough, you and I intimately familiar with that sunset mart. Isn't that the place, Chris McDonough, where a clerk took it upon herself to

come through literally hours of surveillance video and she spots a white Elantra speeding by and she calls police? Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. And you've been there. You've seen that intersection. And what's really interesting here is this is the night of the homicide. I'm going to be really curious to find out what the cast team discovered, not the night of the homicide, but leading up to it. That's going to be fascinating information as well. At that corner where the Sunset Mart is, it's just a hop, skip and a jump from there to the

King Road address. And there you've got the white Elantra turning, heading toward the murder scene. OK, let's pick it up right there. Listen. A security camera on the apartment building neighboring 1122 King Road first records a white sedan at 3.30 a.m. Over the next 34 minutes, it circles the neighborhood at least five times, then parks at 4.07 a.m. Prosecutors write, vehicle one exits the frame traveling in the direction of the victim's residence. There is no subsequent activity captured for approximately 13 minutes. At 4.20 a.m., the white sedan leaves King Road at a high rate of speed and turns west onto Taylor Avenue to exit the area on the road behind the neighborhood. We've seen this before. Can't you just imagine? This was going to happen, Joshua Ritter.

The jury's going to be sitting there, and they're going to be watching this video. We saw it recently in another case we investigated and covered. It's the case of the so-called glam yoga instructor. She wasn't glam to me. Caitlin Armstrong, angry about a love rival, made up a whole love triangle in her head, then followed the victim, a young dirt bike racer, Marine, followed her. And you see surveillance of her like a vulture circling round and round and round in her black SUV. Same thing here. Here we are, 3.30 a.m.

Okay, just after the white Elantra passes the Sunset Mart. I would say as the crow flies, that's a mile or so away from the King Road address. For 34 minutes, it circles 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. At 4.07 a.m. Parks, vehicle one exits the frame traveling in the direction of the victim's residence. No activity after that for 13 minutes, 420 a.m. That white Elantra leaves at a high rate of speed. Now overlay that Joshua with what Dylan and Bethany say, right? Based on their timeline, that's exactly when they spot the intruder in the home just before 4 20 AM, just as they were about to head out to get food. And they go, let's do DoorDash right there. It all fits together, Ritter. Yeah, it's powerful stuff.

I mean, listen, this is this is going to be one of the things that the defense is going to have to deal with most seriously, because you're right. You start to line it up the way you did. It starts to paint a pretty vivid picture for the jury. What is the defense going to argue? I think they're going to argue, listen, this is not horseshoes. Close doesn't count here. If you're not able to place our client, the defendant, at the location and the closest you can do is a mile away, well, then what are we dealing with here? We're dealing with a person who happened to have been driving within a mile of a crime scene does not make him guilty. I realize the counter arguments to all of this, but I'm saying as far as the defense is concerned, there are holes. There are gaps. He's in the neighborhood and he parks close to the home.

The white Elantra is much closer than a mile. It's a one minute walk from where the car is parked at 407, only leaving at a high rate of speed at 420. The best argument they've got right there is, yeah, it's a white Elantra, but it's not my guy. He happened to be out in his white Elantra gazing at the moon and stars. But that's not his Elantra, but it doesn't end there, Ritter. This is like him raising his hand going, I did it. Listen. At 526 a.m., a white sedan is next recorded on surveillance footage at E&S Services on Johnson Road in Pullman. Footage at a Pullman sunset mark then shows the car headed north on State Route 270.

Cameras on the WSU campus record the vehicle making its way north near Beasley Coliseum, which is about a mile from Koberger's student apartment. Brian Koberger's defense team is asking the judge to limit expert testimony from FBI Special Agent Nicholas Balance, a member of CAST, a cellular analyst survey team that specializes in location based on cell phone records. The defense says call detail records will provide partial alibi corroboration. Balance is prepared to speak about the location of Koberger's cell phone before and after the student homicides. Wow. No wonder the defense wants that suppressed. And more. Listen. Jared and Heather Barnhart work with Celebrite with extensive experience in digital forensics.

Celebrite forensic specialists use specialized software and techniques to extract data from electronic devices. They analyzed Koberger's computer and cell phone data to determine his whereabouts and activity before and after the murders. They also looked for signs of tampering or deletion of files. Hippler rules that the Barnhart's testimony is admissible during the trial. To Scott Eicher. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Did I hear tampering? Deletion of files?

You know, the last time I cleaned out my text, I never. Scott Eicher with me, founding member, FBI cellular analysis survey team, an expert in this. Scott Eicher, what do they say? Well, this is damaging evidence, especially if you're putting any cellular data that the defendant has along with the phone, the camera stuff and of the video, and you start matching up the timelines. Very, very important evidence to present. I can see why the defense doesn't want it in because it's damaging. This cellular data and the self-right information have been proven time and time again to be reliable in court.

So the judge made the good decision and I'm glad he found there was no legal basis to exclude them, and he's not throwing them a bone. You know, to Joe Scott Morgan joining us, Professor Forensics, break it down for me. Did you hear the words delete, tamper with evidence? Because when a jury hears this expert take the stand and talk about Koberger potentially deleting or destroying evidence, it's over. Why would he destroy evidence if he was innocent? It's a thread that runs through this entire case. Remember, we also have evidence that there was an attempt to clear out the cachet with the Amazon purchases as well, Nancy. You see this pattern that's developing here. And to this point about the overlay of the area, it's very compelling.

You know, there's one other piece that we haven't really mentioned. That cell phone actually had ping back in that area the next morning. You recall that? And so almost as a confirmatory drive-by, perhaps, no one really knows at this point in time. So he may have returned that morning just to see if there was any activity around the home. And this goes back to what we said earlier about the roommates. You've got these poor kids that are in this place and they're losing their minds in there.

But he wants to casually drive by and see if anybody's caught in wind of this shit. You know, Joshua Ritter, you're a veteran trial lawyer. We're talking about how he can get out of the car evidence by claiming, well, yeah, it looks like my car, but it's not my car, even though it went all the way back toward less than one mile from his Pullman address, and it left from there as well. We're talking about cell phone data, whether he deleted data. But the reality is it boils down to this. His DNA is on the knife sheath. It just can't get away from that. Everything else, again, is gravy. No, you're right. The whole case hinges on that. I don't even think you have a filed case without that. Well, and certainly we don't even know if they would ever even have a suspect without that.

So the whole case for the prosecution comes down to that DNA. And that's why you saw the defense fight so vigorously to have it thrown out legally. That failed. And now they're making attempts to somehow explain it because without some sort of innocent explanation as to why their client's DNA is on that knife sheet, they've got major problems. Now, the one avenue that they have here is they keep talking about this being touch DNA or transfer DNA, meaning DNA that you can't exactly say, does that mean the suspect, the person whose DNA is the contributor, actually touched that item or was it transferred there by some other object or person? Or was it put there, that object, where the DNA

was recovered from by someone else? These are the arguments that it seems like the defense might be exploring in this case. We remember American hero, Detention Service Officer Michael Wall, L.A. County, probation. Passed away in the line of duty, 14 years with law enforcement. Leaves behind a grieving daughter, Aubrey, sisters Jewel, Dionne,ique, and brother Sylvester, American hero, Officer Michael Wall. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.