Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KOHBERGER CONTESTING PLEA DEAL? CAN CASE GO TO TRIAL? LIFETIME 'IDAHO 4 MOVIE' OUTRAGE

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

Steve and Kristi Goncalves join Nancy Grace to share their heartfelt feelings of the recent controversial "Lifetime" movie depicting the brutal murders of their daughter Kaylee, along with three other Idaho college friends. They also touch on their journey of grief and the justice system. On the third anniversary of the Moscow Murders, Judge Hippler rules Kohberger has to pay additional restitution to the families of Kaylee and Maddie of about $3,000, the cost of the urns now holding the remains of the best friends. Kohberger argued he didn't have the money to pay the restitution because he is in prison for the rest of his life. The judge tosses that notion stating Kohberger received nearly $30,000 in county jails while awaiting trial, most of it coming from his family. Hippler also points out Kohberger is a young man who can earn money through prison employment. Kohberger will "receive sufficient amounts over his life to at least come close to meeting his financial restitution obligations. The compensation ruling for the Goncalves and Mogen families is in addition to the nearly $300,000 Kohberger is already ordered to pay the families. However, in a shocking announcement from the bench, Hippler says Kohberger can legally make money from selling his story, saying the Idaho law "leaves open the potential for Defendant to receive money from media contracts in the future"  and such earnings will not be accessible to victims for restitution payments. Joining Nancy Grace today: Kristi Goncalves-Mother of victim Kaylee Goncalves Steve Goncalves -Father of victim Kaylee Goncalves Josh Kolsrud - Criminal Defense Attorney and Former Assistant U.S. Attorney, Founder of Kolsrud Law Offices, kolsrudlawoffices.com, Facebook and YouTube @KolsrudLawOffices Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away” Also featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock, www.drbethanymarshall.com , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive  Chris McDonough -Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, worked over 300 Homicides in 25-year career, Trained the first Native American Homicide Task Force; & Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room”,  www.coldcasefoundation.org/chris-mcdonough  Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", Instagram @JoScottForensic Annie Elise - Host of the true crime podcast "SERIALously," website: annieelise.com Dave Mack - Investigative Reporter, ‘Crime Stories’  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Coburger is contesting his plea deal, reneging on some of the orders in exchange for life over the death penalty. Can the case now go to trial amidst a lifetime Idaho for movie outrage? Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

I want to thank you for being with us. Brian Coburger admitted, pled guilty to four murders. They were worse than murders. They were slaughters of four innocent college students, University of Idaho. Straight out to Annie Elise's host of Serialously, Annie. Coburger is welching on a major tenant of his plea deal under the law. I mean, Annie, that would be like me sentencing you to 20 years on armed robbery. And you have to elocute in court exactly what happened.

We do the deal, and then you refuse to elucute. Okay, deals off. What is he contesting? Paying for funeral expenses? It seems to me like it's all about back to control. He doesn't seem to like any of the inconveniences that are happening now that he's behind bars, whether it's what he overhears the prisoner saying about him, the money that's pouring in and having to possibly use that toward restitution. I think the reality is now setting in for him

and there's starting to be some backpedaling happening. It's my understanding to Dave Matt crime stories investigative reporter that Coburger is balking at paying for the victim's urns and other expenses, right? Exactly, Nancy. The shocking part of it is that that in that plea deal, all of this was already negotiated. All of this was part of it so that he could avoid going to trial and avoid the needle or the gun. And yet now they're going back in and saying, well, we need to send this to the mathematicians

that accounting at the state to determine whether or not he's able to pay for it because he's in prison for the rest of his life. And that actually is something that he's not allowed to do. This plea bargain said he could not go back later and appeal it. He couldn't contest any aspect of it. And in so doing, Nancy, I wonder, why have they not already said, boom, over, you're going to trial? Well, the judge seems to agree with you, Dave Mack.

Listen to Hibler. So you took advantage of the plea agreement to get the benefit of the bargain regarding the state's dropping of the death penalty. Why should you not be held to the plea agreement to pay the victim? the costs of interning their children. I mean, for Pete's sake, does Judge Hippler have to feed the prosecution with a silver spoon? Here's your way out of this disastrous plea deal. Out of all of your lies and your secret deals, Koeberger is contesting restitution. That was part of the deal.

So, deal is off. I mean, can the judge make it any more clear? Listen to Hepler. What's the point of the plea agreement on restitution if the defense is able to argue against the restitution called for in the plea agreement itself? And it's not an issue, is it, to Annie, at least joining us from serulously,

Annie, he's got at least a five-figure amount of money in his commissary account. It's unbelievable. First and foremost, the fact that people are sending an admitted quadruple murderer tens of thousands of dollars than for him to be contesting payment, the restitution that is outlined. And I'm sorry, but $3,000 for the earns. Is that the going rate these days for a life? It's just if he's afforded these comforts of ramen, toilet trees, different treats with his commissary, why should he get more comforts than the victims were ever afforded? Brian Coburger has just been ordered by the judge to fork over 30 grand from his slush fund.

Fine. I'm glad you did that, Judge, to pay the victim's families. But the fact that Coburger has contested the deal. Stop everything. Deals off. Joining me is a veteran trial lawyer who will tell you the truth. We may not like it, but the truth. Josh Colesrude is with us. He is a veteran criminal defense. attorney, former U.S. attorney, founder of Coles Rood Law Offices, Josh, I know that now, in this incarnation of yourself, you are a defense attorney. But isn't it true that when a defendant, when a defendant backs out of one of the tenants of the plea deal, the deal is off? Yeah. So a plea agreement is a contract and it has specific terms that need to be followed. And if those terms are breached, then the plea agreement can be undone and this case can be set for trial. One of the ways that that could happen is a material breach and not paying restitution. So what does that mean? Well, Brian Coburger agreed to have a fair deal.

dealing with his finances, his money, where it was going, and to pay restitution. Now, the state is saying that it was their screw up, that they didn't include the terms in the plea agreement, but that's nonsense. I'll tell you why, because the defendant, Brian Koberger, was levied a $250,000 fine. And that fine, the money from that can be, can garnish his wages. And that money can be transferred into the victim compensation. fund. So they should be able to still go after the money. And so what the prosecution is doing here, they're just being lazy. They're not confident in what they're saying. The judge is actually having to tell them and give them a roadmap out of this because honestly they're

incompetent. I have no idea why they decided to actually plead this case out when if there was ever a death penalty case. Well, that's a whole other can of worms, Coles Rood. You and me both. Koeberger argued last week he was refusing and unable to pay. pay $27,000 restitution to the families, the families of students. He butchered dead. The judge threw out his complaint, his complaint of poverty, noting that he has gotten hundreds of dollars from supporters totally nearly $30,000. Now, he's being ordered to pay restitution. That's well and good. My point is he contested the deal. He hasn't paid it. He's saying he doesn't want to pay it, that he's

unable to pay it, which is a lie, because I know about his five figures of money he's got in his commissary account. To me, that's welching on a deal. Joe Scott Morgan joining me, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University. He's the author of Blood Beneath My Feet. He's a star of a hit podcast, which is incredible. Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan, on and on. But for our purposes, he is a veteran death investigator. Thousands of death scene investigations. Every COD, every MOD, cause of death, matter of death, you can imagine. Why? Why should this have never been a sweet plea deal? Let's just start with that. Why? Is this so important? inflammatory that this was even allowed to be a plea.

And he's ordered to pay the family's restitution after butchering their children. And now he's backing out of it. You know what? Fine. I'd be mad if you didn't. Let's go to trial. Why? Is this so wrong, Joe Scott?

Yeah, in the South, we have a term that says, let the hide come with a hair. My granddaddy used to say that all the time. If he feels froggy, let's jump. Let's go to trial. Because now we have buckets and buckets of evidence that have. been revealed. Now, I've got to tell you, Nancy, give me a little rope here. I know I'm not an attorney. I understand that. But he's kind of got a point of leverage here. They just released the tranche of 2,400 documents of forensic evidence now. So if this thing did go to trial,

everything has been revealed. And, you know, if you think about from the perspective of taining the jury pool, perhaps, they've seen all of this stuff. We've got images that are floating around out there. Nancy, they have flown, and I'll say this directly to the prosecutor, they have flown this case into the side of the mountain from Jump Street. All right, they got nobody to blame but themselves. I was an advocate from the beginning to say that he, like you had mentioned a second ago, he should have allocated in court to everything that he did instead of sitting there, instead of sitting there and not saying a damn word other than, yes, I did it. You know, even BTK was compelled.

Nancy, there are people sitting on death row right now in Idaho that have done far less butchery than he does. He's killed four people, slaughtered them, and now he's complaining about having to pay the family money. This is a gigantic mess. Jos Scott Morgan, the nature of the murders was more akin to a butchering, a slaughtering. When I look at specifically, Well, they're all horrible.

Ethan had his jugular vein slashed, which means there was arterial bleeding, which means that coming from his neck, Ethan's neck, it was like a water sprinkler in the front yard, spurting his life's blood until he was dead. The disfiguration of Kelly Gonzalez, who were, her face was stabbed between 20 and 30 times, could not even identify her. He stabbed her teeth out of her mouth. And more, the other two, Maddie and Zana, horribly, horribly disfigured. Why is it that it is so insulting that now he says he can't pay restitution?

That was part of the deal. When you think about just Kaylee alone, Nancy, not only was she stabbed, she had blunt force trauma to her face. I actually believe that he took that K-bar knife and flipped it on the end of its handle. That was driven into her multiple times, too. You've got these crushing injuries to her face. She's got severe maxial facial damage. And then, you know, you take this robust knife blade and you drive it into her and not just her, but these other victims as well. You've got Maddie laying there.

And she's been butchered as well, Nancy. This would have been a blood bath contained to that, contained to that bud, to the bed, where they were killed. And we've also got bloody deposition that's laying all over the floor that appears to me, Nancy, that he was standing there and probably gazing at the bodies as blood is dripping and falling away free form and striking the ground directly below his feet. You see this blood throughout the house, the deposition, that goes to this point that all of this information. now has been revealed. So, you know, where does the family turn at this point in time? All they're asking for is to show respect to their loved ones that have been killed, Nancy. He must pay.

I don't understand what is wrong with the prosecutor that's been asked many, many times. The judge is basically spoon feeding him with a silver spoon away out of his disastrous plea deal. Listen to Hippler. Isn't a reasonable interpretation of the plea agreement? that the defendant will not contest the state's seeking of restitution that is outlined in the plea agreement. Otherwise, why would it need to be in the plea agreement? It seems to me it's the plea agreement,

a reasonable interpretation is the defendant is agreeing to pay restitution for those items that are identified in the plea agreement, agreement, which includes victims' compensation, pardon me, which includes, in this case, funeral expenses. Joining us tonight to special guests, the parents of Kelly Gonzalez, Christy and Steve, Christy and Steve, thank you for being with us. First, listen to this. So you took advantage of the plea agreement to get the benefit of the bargain regarding the state's dropping of the death penalty, why should you not be held to the plea agreement to pay the victims the costs of interning their children? Judge, I believe that our pleading was clear that we understood that Burns

fell underneath a funeral cost, but that once we have a hearing on this matter that doesn't eliminate the court's duty under 1953-04 to do the ability to pay analysis. And that's why Are you in violation of the plea agreement by arguing that your client shouldn't have to pay those? And more from the judge. What's the point of the plea agreement on restitution if the defense is able to argue against the restitution called for in the plea agreement itself? At this hour, Coburger has been contesting, paying funeral expenses on the four students. He murdered. That's bad enough, but here's the question.

If he's reneging on the deal, then the deal is off. And this case can go to trial if the prosecutor has the backbone to do it, which I doubt. Straight out to Christy and Steve Gonzalez joining us. Christy, you got a shocking letter from the prosecutor. Christy, could you explain what the letter says? Well, basically it says that the travel expense part of the restitution cannot be paid via the defendant's restitution. So we can civilly sue him for it, which is just, you know, we're exhausted, you know. And now something this is just hard.

Christy, can I paraphrase what you just said? You can sue Coburger. That's what the prosecution is offering the mother of a murdered girl. I'm not going to handle it, but you know what? You can go hire a lawyer, Christy, and you can pay the lawyer to sue Brian Coburger. Let's take a look at this letter. It says, and it says, dear gentleman, he can't even write your name. Attached is a copy of the court's order on state's request for restitution. Copies of

restitution orders for your client's funeral-related expenses. It tells you to look at footnote one at the bottom of page one. We were not able to pursue travel expenses. We were not able to pursue Steve Gonzalez, what does that mean? When the prosecutor writes you basically a form letter referring to you and your wife and others as, dear gentleman, when I get something like that, I assume it's a bill collector. The state, in other words, him, was not able to pursue your travel expenses where you had to leave your job and your home and drive seven hours and hole up in a hotel to be in court. They were, quote, not able to pursue that from you.

Koberger has five figures sitting in his commissary account. He will make a movie deal. It's allowed under the law in Idaho. He will write a book. But they did not pursue those expenses for you, Steve? Now, right off the get-go, we said that this deal, the plea deal could be done, but it has to be done correctly. And I didn't think he had the skill level to do it correctly.

That's why we pretty much demanded that the attorneys generals get involved. And, you know, that was the best option we could have. But, yeah, he doesn't know what he's doing. I mean, he's over his head. He's a boomer that literally was trying to retire before this case even happened. And he's mentally retired. So we're the ones losing thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars. tens of thousands of dollars to his mistakes.

And it's embarrassing for the state of Idaho. And, I mean, we did everything for that courtroom so that they could get the resources and they could get the attention. And we just couldn't get him out of that room. And that's really, that really is what's hurting this case. We have Thompson in there just dropping the ball repeatedly over and over and literally admitting it. Like, I totally screwed up, not apologizing, but just saying,

I screwed up. I mean, because it's clearly obvious, the whole world's watching. He can't get himself out of it. But we've been bringing attention to this from the very beginning that there was, I mean, we talked about his office leaking information because we knew where the information was coming from. But nobody ever investigated it. Nobody even came to our family and said, how did you guys know that they were leaking information? Nobody's interviewed us to this day.

Can I ask you how you know it was the prosecutor's office that was leaking? the info. Remember, there was going to be a big investigation and then it just disappeared? There's a couple different ways, and I won't get into it on an open microphone like this. But if you go and look how Anne knew to subpoena my lawyer and our family and what we were discussing, basically, if you reverse that back, you're going to figure out that somebody in that room told Ann that we were talking about one of the witnesses and we knew information about her. So she knew to subpoena our lawyer and the conversations that we were having with just his office. So how does Ann know? How does she even know that she should be requesting the communication

from our personal lawyer to them? What, Christy? Emails. She was requesting all emails from from our attorney, Shannon Gray, our family, regarding this witness. And it was like, okay. And the only time you discussed that was with reps from the DA's office? Exactly. Those are the only people we communicated with officially. And we didn't talk to anyone else about what we had heard it. We had just heard it within probably 48 hours.

And we're concerned and went to them about it. He says, and I'm quoting, as we pre-referred, As we previously submitted response to the court, we believe the crime victim's compensation would be able to reimburse travel and accommodation expenses after the fact. Then we learned that wasn't correct. So they entered into a deal

before they even knew whether you could get reimbursed for all that. That's what it sounds like to me. On a Sunday, after like talking to us on Friday, I mean, these guys didn't do much work at all, But now they're working on their Sundays to basically throw the case away. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. But the last sentence in this letter makes me just want to chew a nail in half.

Quote, at this point it appears there are no remaining outstanding legal issues in the criminal case other than ongoing review of previously civil. documents for possible public release. Sincerely, William W. Thompson, Jr. No remaining issues? I thought that was very weird. No condolences, no sympathy,

no empathy, no anything. I mean, this is basically a form letter covering his rear end. I was very surprised to see how it ended. When I read that last sentence, too, I was like, wow, that's how we're going to end it. No further problems.

If you guys want to get a civil lawyer, you could sue them on your own separately. But we're doing. I'm very curious. Why do you believe what could the possible motivation be? I have a theory that someone in the prosecution's office that you were speaking with, and I can only assume that you went straight to the top,

discussing issues with a trial witness. And then within hours, the defense attorney suddenly wants to subpoena your lawyer's documents about conversations regarding that witness. All I can think of as that the prosecution, Thompson, wanted to further along a plea deal by releasing potentially damning evidence on a witness. That's what we thought. Yeah. If you connect the dots, you can see what's going on.

Because the information that we had for them was damning, was damning to be case. So certain things people want to leak to scare people, to intimidate them, to let them think that there's more going on than what is. or just letting them know that you've got you've got some information that they're not completely privy to so obviously something was going on because she knew to ask for our communications and it just makes no sense how she would know that um this whole case has just been so hard to deal with i mean and we all we did was a demand that whoever was in that courtroom that they they just did their best job every single day and i remember telling thompson because i was warned that he wasn't the man who could get this job done. So I just said, hey, if you're not,

if you're checked out, if you want to retire, I get it, I respect it, you worked your whole life, you're 70-some years old, you don't want it. Step away. Step away. We'll go find somebody. We'll go get someone. But he wanted the fame, but he didn't want the work. Christy and Steve, the fact that Koberger is contesting issues within the plea deal, that's not the banner. The important part of this, we know he's contesting paying restitution. Could that end, rescind, renege the plea deal? Because if he is backing out of conditions of the plea deal,

Then the deal is off. Have you considered this could take the case to trial if Koeberger himself is refusing to pay restitution as ordered in the plea deal? Well, when you bring it up to our attention like that, you know, with your knowledge of how a court is, how courtroom's run and what has happened, I would love for that to happen. But I feel like it's just, it's all just games and none of it is taken serious. oh he doesn't want to pay his restitution slap slap slap you can't do that pay your restitution move on not you know you did a huge thing you violated the plea deal there's no you know second chances we're going to trial just all game it's just all the defense game i mean it just games all the way around i just feel like it just never ending and now we're left with well you could

civilly sue and that's just so frustrating it's like you know what we're out you know a lot of money with everything. The last thing we want to do is sue and just be drugged to more and more court. You know, we were just hoping that they could handle it. The state could handle it on our behalf. So it would be nice to say you violated the plea deal. So we're going to trial.

Well, this is what it boils down to, Steve. Let's look at this. So I take a plea deal. 20 to serve. All right? And the defendant then goes, yeah, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do. 20. Well, then the deal

is off. Paying your restitution is an important part of that deal. And if Coburger contests it, fine. I'd be mad if he didn't. Now, let's go to trial. That is possible. He's reneging on the deal.

That's on him. So what you'd have to do, what we would have to do, is get Thompson off this case. He can't try this case. Someone else, an independent prosecutor, would have to try it. Which would be great.

I would love to see that. I would see that. And per that letter, that letter, he doesn't, he doesn't respect the investigation that Hitler's doing. He didn't say that that was still going on. He said, we're done. We're over. He has no fear of Hitler's investigation because he holds all the cards.

He has all the power. So I mean, I would love for an independent person to come in and look at it. And we're talking about this guy has been trying to control the narrative. you know, P.K., from the very beginning, the minute he even got in prison, he started writing up complaints and started doing formalities and saying, you're going to transfer me, you're going to do this, you're going to do that. We've got to just put our foot down to these kind of psychopath killers and stop entertaining them and stop treating them with baby gloves. It's just, it's just disgusting. And we're doing it all the way up three years later. We're still

entertaining. He's got 30,000. Question, have either you or Christy, out to the feds to take this case? Steve has talked to them. I have talked to the feds. It's been a while since I have, but they're the ones that told me Thompson wasn't even ready for this. They're like, don't go with this guy. This is not going to, this is not going to end well. But they also at the same time told me, we're not going to give you the death penalty either.

So I tried to pick the lesser of the two evils and I was saying, well, at least I get the death penalty in Idaho and I had a lot of belief in the Idaho system. I was just let down by a prosecutor who just was already retired and I didn't know it. Steve and Christy Gonzalez joining us tonight on top of these revelations in this cold-blooded form letter from the prosecutor to them saying, yeah, you're not going to ever get your money back. That's insult to injury. The money, yeah, they're out a lot of money, thousands of dollars. They're out their daughter. They are out, their daughter.

Their daughter was horribly murdered. And we didn't know the truth about what happened to Kelly until after the secret plea deal goes down. And now they're getting another gut punch from a made-for-TV movie. And this is what their daughter, Olivia, has to say. Hi, so that's not iconic. You're young.

So maybe you don't know. But I've looked at the past stuff you've done, and I think you know. there is such a thing as defamation, which can be crushing to a career. Not that you really have one, but if you'd like one, maybe you should just think about it. Maybe you should just think about if Kaylee was your sister. Maybe you should just think about what you put out into the world, like dancing around in between scenes.

Maybe you should think about the projects that you take on. Maybe you should think that if you lay with dogs, you might get fleets. So, yeah, maybe you should just think. You look like you might be capable of it. That's from at Olivia Gonzalez on TikTok, and ever since she first opened her mouth, I knew that she's a champion.

What is she talking about, Christy? Well, one of the actresses, I think it was the one portraying Kaylee had a TikTok, and they were, her and Maddie were dressed up, they were bleeding, and they were dancing with the defendant, and the three of them were dancing and laughing and hollering and whatnot and carrying on, and she posted it on TikTok. something about, you know, loving her job or something. And it was like, we were just appalled. We were like, okay, have fun with your coworkers after work.

But, I mean, do you have to, you know, be dancing around? You were seeing this from Haley Hanson on TikTok. Christy, when you discovered that this was going on, how did that make you feel? because even this many years later, after my fiancé was murdered, when people write about it and make negative comments about it, it never goes away the pain from that, much less someone dancing around on TikTok in the middle of portraying Keeley.

It's very hard. It makes you sick. It makes you literally sick to your stomach. And there were others where she is dressed up, you know, with a lot of blood on her and stuff. And smiling and saying, you know, oh, I'm all, you know, ready for my scene. It's just, it's disgusting and it hurts. And it makes you just, it makes you ill that somebody would actually take a role to portray somebody that died in such a horrific way and make light of it. make light of it and have fun doing it, you know, like not even somber or like, gosh, this is

really hard, but no, you know, let's have a dance party after and let's make TikToks in between scenes. It's hard. Steve Gonzalez, I know that you guys have much bigger issues than some actress Haley Hansen dancing around in fake blanche. during an outtake of during a break from the movie, you have a lot more on your plate than that. But how did that strike you? Because I can see how upset Olivia is about it. I look at the bigger picture and it feels like every time I turn on the TV, I see some like shooting, killing, mass murder. And I think to myself, we have we have multiple

problems, but one of them is kids who think they can do TikTok dances after, you know, as being part of this messaging, as part of this narrative, is part of this corrective measure, if you want to say that's what they're trying to do. Because I want to refuse to think that it's entertainment. But clearly that organization doesn't understand what they're trying to represent and they don't have a clear message and they're not trying to help society get better and and figure out, you know, when these people put out these red flags that we do something about it, part of that could be a documentation or a document on it and say, you know, these are the red flags. And if you see these things in your community, you know, put your foot down and make sure that

somebody takes action. But when you see kids dancing and doing stuff like that and making light of the whole situation, you know, they do the exact same thing to somebody else's child and somebody else's school shooting, somebody else's, you know, tragedy. And you're like, we're just going to do this all over again. If we don't learn from these people and from these cowards,

we got to put some action. And we've got to put some action behind our words. Joining us tonight, Christy and Steve Gonzalez. Thank you for being with us. I know that every time you have to talk about this, it just brings it all up again. if you could have your wish, which of course would be to have Kelly back, what would be your wish now regarding this furor and Coburg are refusing to pay restitution and this ridiculous

movie? What is your wish, Christy? You know, I mean, the wish of wanting Kaylee is obviously that that's not possible. So my only other wish would be for him to hurry up and take his last breath and just we could be done. We can never have to talk about him again. And as far as movies go and books, you know, you just got to roll with the punches. I mean, you can't fight them all. You just can't.

But him being dead would be great. That'd be my way. me um i would try to make something positive out of it as much as you possibly can and i feel like that's what me liby and the family's doing is we're trying to put some actions we're trying to put we're trying to rally around anyone who who see something disgusting and puts their foot down and says all right i've had enough um i think that's that's the best we can do and if we can take this murder and all the people's attention on it and say hey there's no point of having red flags if we're not doing something about it and and we we see all the

these killers and we look back at their past behaviors and there's all these red black but just no not enough action behind them people just dodging the bullets just saying we didn't know he was a normal person no you did know there was things there there was girls making complaints all around this individual over and over and you just refused to listen to him you just refused to do something when they were crying out for help and it's happening all the way to today we're going to lose tens of $1,000 because the prosecutor refused to help us. He couldn't do it. He didn't, whatever the reason, he failed us. And it's just happening over and over and over. And we just,

we need some accountability. And this family is all about, you know, doing whatever we can for these girls, these victims to make sure that something comes out of it, that changes society and helps, you know, reduce this type of type of crime ever again. That's the best I could hope for. She didn't get to pick her mode of death. She didn't get to pick whether she lived or died. Neither did Maddie, neither did Ethan, neither did Xana. To Annie Elise joining us in addition to furor over the Lifetime movie where the actors and actresses are actually doing TikTok dancing,

some of them still in their bloody clothing, portraying Kelly and others, and posting that. That's a whole other can of worms. Can I talk about what matters, and that is the trial and Cooper's refusal to pay restitution, as was ordered in the plea agreement? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Annie Alicia joining me, the Star of a True Crime Podcast,

serielessly, she's been on this case, From the very beginning, Annie, thank you for being with us tonight. Annie, I'm just curious. I know that Coburger's family sent him a lot of money, but other people are donating to Brian Coburger. Why aren't they donating to the families of the victims on their GoFundMe's? Who are these people? Nancy, it is so unnerving when you really break it down

because nearly $30,000 has now poured into his account. And you know what, we've seen this before, the strange fan base, the dark celebrity treatment. We saw it with Chris Watts as well, but what the motivation is here, I don't know if it's that people truly believe he's innocent, if it's women who think they can fix him. But let's be clear, these people are sending money to an admitted quadruple murderer. They need to rethink what they are actually supporting here. You know, Annie Elise, it reminds me of Luigi Mangione, and much was made of the fact that about $40,000 at the get-go had been funneled into his commissary account. Same with Coburger.

It's five figures we now believe to be over $30,000. Are they lovelorn women? I mean, I don't understand who is trying to support Coburger. But you're right, Annie. online I see it all the time people actually angry when I discuss his guilt he pled guilty did I just dreamed that whole thing he pled guilty in court Annie no you're absolutely right there's a group out there that actually call themselves the pro burghers where they are advocating for his innocence saying that it's all a setup that it's all a cover and I argue with them as well you know he admitted

to what he did not in the way that I think a lot of us hoped he would with full allocution, but he did admit to butchering these four students. So for them to now be sending him money, still advocating for him, there needs to be some sort of recalibration here. It does not make any sense what they're supporting. Annie Elise also tonight, there is an uproar, and I think is justified, regarding a lifetime movie about Brian Cobroger's butchering these four students. students. And one of the first people to speak out is Kelly Gonzalez's sister. Listen. And I love to do iconic. Hi, so that's not iconic. You're young. So maybe you don't know.

But I've looked at the past stuff you've done and I think you know. There is such a thing as defamation, which can be crushing to a career. Not that you really have one, But if you'd like one, maybe you should just think about it. Maybe you should just think about if Kaylee was your sister. Maybe you should just think about what you put out into the world, like dancing around in between scenes. Maybe you should think about the projects that you take on. Maybe you should think that if you lay with dogs, you might get fleets. So, yeah, maybe you should just think.

You look like you might be capable of it. There you see, Keely's sister taking to the Airways on TikTok with outrage against this movie, but more so about this. Listen. Why this was even a concept that was pitched, I can't begin to understand. I don't think anyone wants to see a dramatized version of how these four young people, were killed in their home. Mind you, the trial for the murderer

was only a few months ago. I hope and pray lifetime decides to pull this from production and never continue, never, ever, ever. If you sit back and you look at the loved ones' perspectives for just a second because no one can imagine what it's like to walk in their shoes, but to see an entire movie being made about their lives casting actresses to play

them and they're not even involved in this and they really have no say of stopping in. This just feels really unsettling. Not only has Kelly's sister spoken out about not just the movie, but the actors and actress is doing a bloody dance scene sequence where they actually are still in costume covered in blood. What happened? So I think that's where the outrage is here. Everybody expects that Lifetime and other networks will make movies and react to real-life cases, but the way in which the actors are handling this, that's what's not landing well.

Not only are they recreating dance scenes and little catchy voiceovers to these moves between takes, but there's also been times in which they are still in wardrobe. is blood on them and they are offset in their trailer or wherever they are and they're doing these viral dance moves and it is just classless tactless and of course has upset a lot of the family members Kaylee's sister as you mentioned has been very out about this I did reach out to her and chatted with her briefly about it because not only is she upset that they didn't consult the family before moving forward with this film but also because of the behavior that is happening during filming, just the disregard

for the reality and the brutality of this being a real life situation that this family went through. You know, to Chris McDonough joining me, Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective who has been on the case from the beginning. He

and I go into the scene and investigating. You can find him on YouTube at the interview room. Chris, obviously the guys at Lifetime and these actresses and actresses have never been to an actual crime scene or they would not be making light of it. Yeah, 100%. And, you know, let's remember when you make a deal with the devil,

he's going to come collecting. And it looks like he's collecting right now. Like what Doc Morgan was talking about just a minute ago, Nancy, let's not forget that there's evidence of aspiration blood, meaning while Brian Coburger is stabbing these individuals, Joe, so brutally, they are trying to breathe. And this is what we're dealing with. And if our culture thinks that's a good thing, we need to take a hard look in the mirror. Joe Scott, you heard what Chris McDonough just said. He's the expert.

He's been to thousands of crime scenes. Obviously, the actresses and actors and the producers at Lifetime have never been to an actual crime scene. Could you explain what this crime scene was really like, Joe Scott? As Chris had mentioned, there was aspiration of this blood. And kind of let me give you, for instance, for this. So if a lung is penetrated and airway is penetrated, you aspirate that blood, which means you draw in and then you expirate it, Nancy. So it's literally blown out like this.

So you can see the blood deposited on various surfaces, and it looks different than, say, standard like blood splatter where you see something driven or struck into an area. It's kind of got an air-rated appearance to it. It's almost sometimes you'll even see air bubbles in it. And that really lets you know about these final moments that they have just screaming for life, screaming, screaming for air because their brain is screaming out that can no longer breathe.

And that's the brutality that's involved in these people that live in this fantasy world like this, that try to make a buck off of these. poor people. It's beyond the pale, Nancy. I wish just for once they could come and let me take them to an autopsy. Let them see what that's like. Let them hear the screams and the whales of the family. I bet they won't want to do this again. Joe, Scott, the brutality inflicted on Kelly Gonzalez alone. Can you describe what happened to her face and now these actresses, this actress covered in blood is doing a dance, TikTok about it, still covered in fake blood?

Yeah, he's taking a heavy steel blade and driving it through her face. And I still contend that he took it around because there were other abrasions on her face, took it around and began to pummel her like with the handle like this and probably inverted the handle and began to do this as well, driving it almost like the head of a hammer into her face over and over and over again. Nancy, she had so many wounds. Now, dig this, had so many wounds that they were cross-communicating and overlying one another. It was hard to delineate between these wounds because of the inflicted trauma where you've got this overlapping that occurs.

That happens a lot in cases, but here you had it happen with multiple people, just Maddie as well. That happened with her as well, where you had these cross communications of injuries with her as well. So this was a level of brutality that I think that probably for those crime scene investigators that were out there at that scene, none of them had ever born witness. to anything like this before. Could you describe the scene of arterial bleeding such as what Ethan suffered? Yeah, so every time a vessel is clipped and the heart is still beating. And remember, just because you have a vessel that has been clipped in your neck doesn't mean that you die.

He eventually dies of what's referred to as exsinguination, which means you're bleeding out. The loss of blood is incompatible with life. And so the blood is literally depositing itself as it's spraying out from the injuries. Every time that heart beats, it pulses, it contracts, that blood is driven out through that open wound, and it deposits on any of the adjacent surfaces. And you could see this. Sometimes you'll see it in kind of this histamine-like spray that kind of arcs over a wall. I've seen this multiple times it seems.

And it almost looks like a bloody rainbow layer upon layer. and the person's writhing in pain. And so that pattern is going to change every time that blood spurts out. And that would have told the tale where any of these investigators that were out there could have borne witness to what Ethan had gone through. And here's the thing, Nancy. Nobody in court's ever going to see that, are they? He's going to get there.

This guy's going to be able to just to say, yeah, yeah, well, I did it. But no one's ever going to be able to see the horror that he actually inflicted on these people. And that's why he's got three hots in the cot. doesn't he? 911 location of your emergency? Hi, something is happening. Something happens in our house. We don't know what.

What is the address of the emergency? One one to two. What is the rest of the address? Oh, King's Road. Okay. And is that a house or an apartment? It's a house. Can you repeat the address to make sure that I have it right?

sure that I have it, right? I'll talk to you guys. We live at the White, so we're next to them. I need someone to repeat the address for verification. The address, 1122, King Road. Haley Hanson plays Kaylee Gonzalez in the new Lifetime movie The Idaho Murders and uploads a video to TikTok, dancing with the actors playing Maddie Mogan and Brian Koeberger.

As all three are dressed in character, the video has upset family and friends who see the portrayal as disrespectful. Haley Hanson took the video down. Joining us now, Dr. John Deletori, he is a licensed psychologist and he specializes in forensic psychology. You have worked with so many crime victims. You've got, on one hand, Coburger refusing to pay restitution for the urns of his victims that he butchered. Then you've got a lifetime movie where the actresses and actors are doing dance TikToks, covered in fake blood. I mean, this family, these four families, have been through hell and back.

They've got a prosecutor that writes them a form letter explaining why, oh, yeah, if you want anything more, you can sue civilly. Why don't you go hire a lawyer? Will it never end for these people? No, probably not. I mean, then all of these wounds are going to be reopened. once this movie actually comes out.

Because here's the nefarious thing. I highly doubt that this movie is really going to take the crime victims, right? Where they're really going to look at the lives of these young lives, these young, beautiful lives are really going to be taken center stage. I imagine everything is going to be focused on Brian Coburger, because that's where people think that their interest should lie. But these four people deserve to have a life. If they needed a movie, they should be the focus.

And instead, they're probably going to just be right. relegated to the four victims in Brian Kohlberger's massacre. You know what, Delo Tori, who is going to profit off this movie other than lifetime? If they were telling the stories of the victim's families, they would probably profit. But I doubt very seriously that that's the way it's going to go. No, of course not. Of course that's not going to be the thing. Because in their mind, the producers of this movie in their mind, the idea is that we're going to

to bring in all the eyeballs because people want to understand the complexities of Brian Coburger. Brian Coburger is not complex. He's not even that interesting. What the complexities of Brian Coburger? I don't think he's, I don't think he's complex. That's what the producers think. I think, and those people like me that actually care about humanity who actually have empathy, want to hear the stories, want to hear the stories of these victims, want to hear about the lives of these victims and the traumas that they had to face and their family members have to experience now. We don't want to see a movie about Brian Coburger. I know I don't want to see it. I want to hear about these stories of these young lives lost, these young beautiful lives lost.

That's what I want to hear, but producers don't think that people will watch that. Chris McDonough, you and I have investigated and tried hundreds, thousands of cases at this point. Who wants to go into the mind of Brian Koberger and do a dramatization of him? That's a great question, Nancy. I mean, and isn't that the big problem here in our society as a whole in terms of, you know, the access to social media where we get instant gratification and we think in bits and bites anymore, but we forget this one point, and you just raised it a couple of minutes ago. you know this guy sat in that room post-mortem experimenting on those bodies why is that important for the public to know in terms of let's make a movie about this it's crazy we've lost our minds you know josh cole's wrote i'm trying to think of an alternative if you're like me my mind is already raced for about 20 steps what's the best alternative is there a

a way to throw out the plea deal. I mean, the Lifetime movie and the actresses dancing around covered in blood is just, it's disgusting. I'm thinking about a way to make actual change, to do something. The only thing I can think of is to try to renege the deal, to void the deal. A, you can't have that prosecution's office in on it. That's impossible. Even if there are good lawyers within the office, it's too late. They're tainted by their leader. It'll have to be a Fed or a special prosecutor.

But is there a hope? Is there a way, Josh, to get the plea deal voided? Yes, there is. There's two ways. You just mentioned one, which is a, federal action, but there's a much more simple way, and that is through victims' rights. Now, in Idaho, the prosecution is required to go over and make sure that the victims understand the plea agreement and that they've conferred with the victims. And here, it's very obvious that

that process did not happen in full, because during the restitution hearing, the prosecution admitted on the record that it was their fault that the proper restitution terms were not in the plea agreement. So that tells me that the victim's rights were violated. So the victims on their own, through their attorney, can file a special action with the court demanding that the plea agreement be unraveled and the case be set for trial because of material misrepresentations by the prosecution and now by the defendant, but not being honest about his finances and not having good faith about paying the restitution that they deserve.

Guys, I don't always like what Coles Rood has to say because he's typically defending someone, but he's right. There could be a way around this deal with the devil. But now will it happen? I am begging the feds to intervene. I am begging a court to investigate this and appoint an independent prosecutor. How can we stand by and hear these families pain and do nothing? The current U.S. attorney for the Idaho district is Bart M. Davis.

Repeat, Bart M. Davis. The number 208-334-1211. 208-334-1211. You have the knowledge. Use it. Is there a way out of this deal with the devil? The local prosecutor struck with Brian Koberger? Can we get Koberger to trial?

Now, we remember an American hero, Border Patrol agent Freddie Ortiz, U.S. Department Homeland Security, killed in the line of duty. after 13 years serving and protecting, leaving behind his grieving mother. American hero, patrol agent Freddie Ortiz. Nancy Grace signing on. Goodbye, friend. This is an IHeart podcast.