Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KOHBERGER, 'DRESSED LIKE TED BUNDY' FOR SELFIE, XANA 'CHASED DOWNSTAIRS; STABBED

Episode Date: June 19, 2025

NBC News' Dateline revealed new details about Idaho college murder suspect Bryan Kohberger, including his phone activity, disturbing search history, and a chilling selfie taken before his arrest. The report details Kohberger’s searches for Ted Bundy, pornography, and the Britney Spears song “Criminal.” His phone also contained a selfie dated December 28, 2022, showing him staring into the camera in a black hoodie—similar to the clothing Bundy wore in a YouTube video found in Kohberger’s search history. Dateline also uncovered new information about the killings. Investigators believe Ethan Chapin was the last victim targeted. He was allegedly asleep in bed when the attacker “carved” his lower legs with a blade. Before that, the killer reportedly chased and stabbed Xana Kernodle, who was still awake after ordering food from DoorDash. Joining Nancy Grace today,   Joshua Ritter - Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Prosecutor, Host of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube; X, Instagram & TikTok: @joshuaritteresq/YouTube: CRConfidential Dr. Shavaun Scott- Psychotherapist, Author of “The Minds of Mass Killers: Understanding and Interrupting the Pathway to Violence” and "Game Addiction: The Experience and the Effects;"  FB: Shavaun.scott, Instagram: shavaunscott  Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective [worked over 300 homicides in 25-year career], Trained the First Native American Homicide Task Force; Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room"  Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensic Howard Blum - Author: "When The Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for The Idaho Student Murders;" Instagram: howard_blum_author, X: howardblum  Dave Mack - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. An eerie Brian Coburger selfie emerges where he's dressed like Ted Bundy. This as shock evidence comes forth, evidence that Zana was not killed in her sleep. She was literally chased down the stairs then stabbed dead. Is that true? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. She's not waking up. They saw some men in their house last night. So much has developed over the last days in the Brian Koberger prosecution in the deadly

slayings of four beautiful University of Idaho students, which we thought before tonight had all been stabbed dead quasi, if not totally, in their sleep in their own beds. But now a shocking theory has emerged that Zana, beautiful Zana, was actually chased down the stairs and then murdered. This as an eerie, a haunting selfie emerges. Oh, there we go. A Brian Koebberger dressed like Ted Bundy. Now why would the white bread boy from the Poconos Would the white bread boy from the Poconos dress like Ted Bundy and take eerie selfies? You know what?

Before we even get to the news, I need a drink and a shrink, but sadly, I'm a teetotaler. So straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us. Psycho Alice from the LA jurisdiction. You can see her now on Peacock. She is the author of Dillabreakers on Amazon. And you can find her at DrBethanyMarshall.com. Bethany, why? Why is he all dressed like Ted Bundy for a series of selfies?

He actually looks like he's the star in a slice and dice movie. What is this? Dexter, you know, Nancy, this tells me that had he not been apprehended, he would have gone on to kill. If Ted Bundy is his idol and Ted Bundy is a serial killer, killed men, killed women, had a completely deviant life, that this tells me that this was Brian Coburger's first rodeo, this first mass killing, and this was just practicing for all the killings to come.

This is his idol, so he's going to form his entire offending pattern around his idol. This is more evidence that Brian Coburger should never ever be let loose in society again. Okay, you're preaching to the choir on that Dr. Bethany, but I was looking for something else, something that I can't regurgitate myself. I'm trying to figure out why Mr. Button Down Oxford Shirt is dressing like Ted Bundy in a selfie. Think of Halloween. You know how all the sorority girls dress up like hookers, right?

So this says something, Bethany, something deeper than I learned in law school. Why is he dressing up like Ted Bundy? It means something for Pete's sake. The first patient I ever saw as an intern, I was 25 years old, was a young woman who looked like Little Bo Peep from The Waist Up and like a hooker from The Waist Down. She had fishnet stockings, stiletto heels. She was a church secretary. And so she had this duality in her personality. And this is what I see in Brian Koberger. In fact, we call it a vertical split in my field where one half of the person's personality could be deviant, naughty, counter society, maybe even homicidal. And the other part is sort of like a do-gooder.

And the two sides are not integrated. They could go and give a birthday cake to grandma and celebrate grandma and then go rape the old lady next door. So it's very scary when you see these kinds of lack of integration with people who have certain types of pathology because it tells you the deviant side could be so, so deep because it's hidden even from their own consciousness sometimes.

Joining me on all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight, and I want to go straight out to another renowned guest. It's Howard Bloom, author of When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. He has done extensive research on this case. Talk to people we've never even heard of in his effort to get to the truth of what happened. You may know Coburger better than any of us,

and I wanna hear what you think about why he's dressing up like Ted Bundy of all people. Well, first of all, you know, that's taking a leap of faith. Sometimes a black hoodie is just a black hoodie. I mean, there's no crime wearing a black hoodie. So, is he posing as Ted Bundy or is he just some guy wearing his black hoodie. So is he posing as Ted Bundy or is he just some guy wearing his black hoodie? Okay stop, just stop, please, please just stop. Just a black hoodie. You know I've got a black hoodie and I don't look like that in a selfie. A positioned selfie. It's not like he's holding his phone like that. Some of that is up on a

tripod or set up somehow. Why is he doing...not that one, not that one. Let me see the other one. Go...yes that one. You want to tell me he's just just wearing a black hoodie? No he's not just wearing a black hoodie here. He is communicating something. That one evokes Ted Bundy. That is not innocent. He's looking all thuggish and menacing. So it's not that he just ran out and bought a black hoodie. I've got a black hoodie

and I don't take freaky selfies in it. There's a difference. What is the difference? Speak, Bloom. Well, again, I don't find, I just find that a disconcerting stare. He's giving into the camera. He's posing, he's making faces.

There's no crime in doing that. I mean, it's really a large leap of faith to condemn him for that. There's so much more evidence there to look at and to the poses that he makes in front of his own camera. It's really doing a psychological analysis of a selfie. When you have a whole series of selfies, you pick out one, I think that's a large leap of faith. And it's speculative. We can be speculative, let's be speculative, but let's also give him the benefit of the doubt

of what that selfie means. To Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us. Okay, you use the term vertical split. Okay. You use the term vertical split. And it makes me think of other killers such as BTK, buying torture kill Dennis Rader, who was literally a church deacon by day and a serial killer slash dog catcher by night murdering people, women,

even children that in bizarre sexual ways that he would identify on his dog catching route. Then you've got Rex Heurman who is an architect and a successful architect at that by day, even bringing his daughter into the practice and one of the freakiest, most evil serial killers in history. Then of course there's Ted Bundy, who is a quasi-brilliant law student, but also a freakazoid killer, where at the end, he's just bashing people in the head with a log. There's no forethought. There's just mad killing, but he's not insane. So when you say vertical split,

the duality of the psyches of these killers is something I'm trying to figure out with Coburger. Vertical split? I've never heard that before, Bethany. Well, let's think of a vertical split is on one side is all the aspirational goodness, their families whom they rely upon. In the case of Brian Koberger, you know, teaching in a class, learning about law, you know, trying to flirt with women, but he was a family guy. He lived with his family for a long, long time. And then on the other side of the split, all the evil side, I mean, the church secretary that looked like Little Bo Peep from the waist up and a hooker from the waist down was having affairs with other pastors through the church computer, but she was the church greeter on Sunday morning. So it's

the lack of integration, I think, in which these kinds of actions foment. So the BTK killer, you know, he would measure people's graphs. Joining me, Howard Bloom, author of the definitive work on, as of now, on the Idaho slays. When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. And you can find him at Howard Bloom. That's B-L-U-M dot com. Howard, thank you for being with us. Howard, the need to keep photographic evidence, what is that? When someone commits a crime like this, it is the high point of their moment.

They are building up to it over a period of time and then they finally find the will. They finally can make that jump into becoming the monster that they're seeing in their mind. And they want to commemorate this moment. They want this moment to live on. That's why they do it. They want to have this experience. It's like looking at a scrapbook. We might keep a scrapbook of high events in our lives, weddings, high school graduations,

college graduations. They are the killings. events in our lives, weddings, high school graduations, college graduations, they are the killings. Joe Scott Morgan joining me, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He's the star of a hit podcast, Body Bags, with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, thank you for being with us. I want to—the dichotomy of the selfies that Coburger has taken, juxtaposed against, compared to the crime scene.

And I want you to hear this, Joe Scott, before you elaborate on the crime scene. Disturbing evidence tonight that Zanna did not die in her sleep. She was actually chased down, downstairs and murdered. Listen. New information is Madison may have been the killer's intended target and the killer was surprised to find Mogan was not alone. Kaylee Gonzalves had recently moved out and only returned for a visit with Morgan. The killer arrives just after 4 a.m. and goes directly to Madison's room first, where a tan leather sheath for a K-Bar knife is found near Morgan's body on the bed. Coburger's

DNA was found on the button snap of the knife sheath. One floor below Madison's room, Zanna has just received her door dash order and is scrolling through Instagram when she hears a struggle in the room above. Running up to the next floor, the killer chases Zana back down to her bedroom, leaving the knife sheath behind. Catching up to Cronodal, the killer stabs her to death

while her boyfriend Ethan remains asleep. Shocking new evidence. Before he is killed, the murderer carves Chapin's lower leg with a blade. Chapin is the last murder victim, killed with one strike of the knife, hitting an artery. Now, according to sources, Ethan's leg was not carved. It was stabbed. I don't think we're going to know that until we actually hear the autopsy report. But straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author, podcast star, I could go on.

Joseph Scott, this changes things. This is a different dynamic than what we had first been told. The fact that Zana was chased down, that changes the entire complexion for me. It was horrible to start with, but imagining Zanna running for her life adds another layer of terror. How would they even know that? Well, I think we gotta go back. Who told us in the beginning, you know,

that all, and I mean all of the victims were apparently asleep? Do you recall, Nancy, it was either the first or the second day after, we had this odd event that occurred, which never happens, and that is the coroner did an interview. Do you recall that? She gives an interview in which she says it- Oh, yes, I remember, and that is why a cardinal rule is never speak to the press if you are part of a case. It doesn't matter

what they say about you or anything else. Because one offhand statement, they were killed in their sleep, has now snowballed that that's what happened. And it may be entirely untrue. Yeah. And now retrospectively, when you throw this new data in there, it sounds almost, you know, can be implied that it's deceptive or whatever. That's why if you're inside of the investigative bubble that I refer to, you keep your mouth shut, particularly for the coroner. They have no business saying anything about this, but the dynamic of XANA being found away from the bed is quite interesting. And that gives you an awareness, does it? Because we've heard about the food delivery and this sort of thing, we've heard about voices.

And a lot of the stuff, I think going back, Zana's tied to relative to her activity. You know, you get this impression about all of this all the way along and the dynamic has completely changed. You know, before we're thinking, yeah, you know, Ethan and Zana were cuddled in the bed, you know, and that they're asleep. Oh, that's, that's, that ain't what happened here, Nancy. Well, how are they going to prove it? I don't, I don't know that, that they necessarily can. I think one of the fascinating things that

for, for this in particular is if she had an awareness that there was somebody up there this in particular, is if she had an awareness that there was somebody up there and she snuck up the stairs just to kind of investigate on her own, was she cut in any way up there and then chased down afterwards and maybe there's some kind of deposition of her blood on the carpet leading back to her bedroom or is it all concentrated in the room? Because the one thing we do know about Zana... Hey, Pritchett's got it. I want to throw something at him. Yeah, sure. Okay, listen to this. I think the blood spatter is going to be critical here because I'm hypothesizing if she were stabbed at all on those stairs, even if she ran back up, we're going to get Zana's blood on the stairs, even if she ran back up, we're gonna get Zana's blood on the stairs,

even if her body is found in the bedroom. If she ran down and ran back, I don't know yet, because I haven't seen the blood evidence. But all they need is a drop, a drop, not a transfer, not a smear, which could come from the killer, but a drop from her, or spatter from her, which showed the event happened right there.

So it wouldn't matter where her body was found. That shows that a stabbing happened on the stairs that she left her room. And there's one other thing, but put this into your equation. Joining me is Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave Mack. Dave, isn't it true that one of the survivors, the one that ran from one room to the next that night, they were frantically texting back and forth, there's a guy in here, he's wearing a black mask on his face. Didn't one of them run past Zana and see her in the floor and think she was passed out drunk. Because all the facts hadn't assimilated.

She didn't know what had happened, which goes to this theory. Refresh my recollection, Dave Mack. Nancy, that's exactly what happened. And now you've got to put it in the context of the moment. You know, you're talking four o'clock in the morning at a house that is very active. It's heading towards the end of the night, early morning, you're talking four o'clock in the morning at a house that is very active. It's heading towards the end of the night early morning and they hear something and so one of the roommates does go and look see what's going on, but

not putting anything you're not thinking something like this is going to happen. You're thinking is just a regular night hearing weird sounds, but she sees Zanna and it appears to her that Zanna is just asleep. That's because that's what she would normally expect to find at that time of the day or early morning. So nothing really clicked until later and that's why there was all the texting back and forth with the other roommate and the calls to the phones. Just if something's wrong, something's different than normal. And here's another thing

aside from the possibility that Zana was actually chased down and killed that night. The theory that Maddie, Madison Mogan may have been the intended target. And now we are now getting, which I'm about to get to, I'm leading up to it, information as to how we've heard all along the prosecutors came out in open court and said we have no evidence that the victims were stalked on social media. Because remember, there was a lot of talk that Koberger had stalked the victims.

In that vein, it was believed for a long period of time that Kelly Gonzalves was the intended victim. It wasn't that the accepted theory at the get-go, Dave Mack, that somehow Kelly was the intended victim and the others were tangential. Now we're hearing that new information, Maddie Mogan may have been the killer's intended target. Well, you know, the first talking about targeting and who was the first one that actually came from the Gonzales family. You remember in the very early parts of the investigation, they were very public talking

about the investigation and wanting information. And they were given certain information and that led them to believe and led them to say that Kayleigh was the target in their mind's eye. That's what they saw. Now we're hearing that that may not be the case. Again, now we go back to the world of Joseph Scott Morgan because I don't know how you can determine when you've got two young women in the same location,

both being killed with a knife, how you determine who was killed first. Guys, now we're learning more freaky Coburger photos just emerging could reveal how he allegedly targeted four beautiful Idaho University students for murder. She's not waking up. They saw some man in their house last night. Come on, we gotta go check. But we have to.

She's not going home. She's not waking up. What is the address of the emergency? 1122 King Road. emergency 1122 King Road Crime Stories with Nancy Grace On one of the many, many days I spent trumping around Moscow and Pullman, I met Coburger's neighbor, one of his neighbors, who described Coburger's father upon moving Coburger in for the start of school, coming to him and saying, words to the effect, my son has a hard time making friends, surprise,

surprise, would you be his friend? I believe the pool party that is now under the microscope was an invite from that neighbor. Little did I know at the time that that pool party could be the nexus between Coburger and the murder victims. Listen. To me, he seemed a little awkward, kinda like you might expect for a PhD student

who didn't know anyone at the party and was maybe trying his best to kinda get out there and be social and make friends. Shortly after moving to Pullman, Koberger is invited to a pool party in Moscow July 9th. Koberger attends the pool party during the day and his cell phone data analyzed by an FBI cell phone expert indicates Koberger came back to Moscow the night of July 9th and in the days, weeks and months

that followed Coburger's phone pinged nearly a dozen times to a tower that provides coverage within a hundred feet of the murder house. Cell phone records indicate Coburger was within 100 meters of 1122 King Road on at least 23 occasions. All trips were after dark and the last recorded visit just six days before the murders. The first lady you heard speaking from the pool party episode was from our friends at NBC's Dateline. That Dateline episode has exploded in the courtroom with the judge demanding an investigation to find out how that and other information was leaked to Dateline.

And I gotta tell you, it certainly touched a nerve, which makes me think that what's in Dateline could very well be true. Now can we get back to the nexus between the pool party and the murder victims? Okay, listen to this. Another leak is Coburger's cell phone browsing history in possession of law enforcement

shows dozens of pictures of female students at Washington State and the University of Idaho, many in bathing suits. Some of them friends or followers of three murdered students, Madison, Kaylee, and Zanna. Okay, now we must deduce, we must extrapolate based on what we know. Joining me is a renowned homicide investigator,

Chris McDonough, Director, Colcase Foundation, and the star of a YouTube channel, The Interview Ring, where I found him. Okay, Chris, go with me on this and jump in. So he gets invited to the pool party. I think the same pool party the neighbor invited him to so he could make friends. All right. He's at the pool party. That night, July 9th,

begins his trips to where the murders occurred, the King Road murder scene. That night, his phone is pinged, and there are over 20 subsequent visits to the murder scene leading up to the murders. Significance, they start the night of the pool party, right? He didn't know them. Then we find photos in his cell phone

of women, girls, students in swimsuits. Were those girls at the pool party? Because now we learn, last step, that on social, the girls in the swimsuits were social media friends online with the victims. So all along we're like how did he find these victims? How did he target them? Does it all go back to the innocent pool party? He's at the pool party, he sees women, he takes pictures of the women in their swimsuits, he looks them up online, he finds their online friends and targets

them. That's not just a coincidence. There is no coincidence in criminal law, McDonough. Right. No, it's like the hunter who is trying to figure out where the deer hang out. He's a sadistic sexual predator and it starts with finding your victimology. It starts with finding girls, if that's going to be his victimology, and then it's going to talk in his head, and I'm talking about fantasy, that he's going to tie it to his model and who's his model.

But right now, the evidence is showing that it could be Ted Bundy. And if that's the case, who was Ted Bundy stalking? He was stalking sorority girls. And now, the very first murder, if Brian Koviger is your guy, he picks a house with five girls. And is the pool party connected? Well, we don't know yet, but we know he was organized. And we go back to the sheath for a moment. If Zana is the gal that walked up and disturbed him, that's probably the time he dropped the sheath. And that's when it went disorganized. And he probably, if in fact he chased her, that was the time. And that probably explains how the sheath got there in the first place. So, is it past possibility? No, it's a probability. And it's also a probability that when he was taking that secondary selfie, that we're gonna find a lot of information on that digital footprint of his phone.

And it won't surprise me the type of porn that we find on that phone is going to be very sadistic. I guarantee it. Oh, you're leading me to my next topic. The sadistic type of porn found on his cell phone, like having sex with women while they were asleep, passed out, drugged, which is of course not having sex. That's right.

But hold on, before I put the cart before the horse, to Joshua Ritter joining me, a veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney, former prosecutor, and the host of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, and you can find him at joshritteresqueesquire.com. Josh, thank you for being with us. Josh, take off your defense hat. I'm taking off my prosecution hat.

I'm trying to understand what's happening. No wonder the judge blew a gasket and I don't blame the judge. That was a serious leak to Dateline. It's not Dateline's fault. They're doing what they do, right? Somebody leaked. Yeah, that's an idiot's mean cop.

I mean, we're talking about cell phone porn about raping women in their sleep and when they're drugged, found on his phone and these women were attacked, he thought they were gonna be asleep, right? But the nexus here, there is no coincidence in criminal law, not that I've ever seen. I've seen coincidences in life, but in crime. So he's at a pool party that daddy arranged for him basically. He goes to the pool party. He sees women in swimsuits.

Photos are taken of sorority girls students in swimsuits. Online, their friends are these victims. The night of the party, he's caught on his cell near the King wrote address and that starts the 23 times he starts visiting there. That's not a coincidence, is it? No, and what you're outlining too and pointing out, I think it's going to be something that the prosecution is going to need to make abundantly clear to the jurors here. Because one big question I think everyone has is what was the connection between this man, if this is the suspect, if this is the person the police believe is responsible for these grizzly murders, what's his connection to these victims?

Are you telling us that we're to believe that this is a completely random crime? And we're not even talking about students that go to the same college that you could say that, hey, he watched these videos every single day. Hey, Ritter, and this was a big hole in the state's case for many people. Of course, motive is not required for the state to show that, but the jury wants it, this could be filling the hole. How did he pick these people? That's just what you're saying, Josh. No, absolutely, because they're going to have to give the jurors something. I don't think we can walk into this trial with the idea that, hey, random people didn't live near him,

didn't go to class with him, he didn't see them on a daily basis. We have no connection between the suspect and these victims. But yeah, we want you to believe that he's the one that committed the crime here. Listen, I know there's other evidence at play and exactly what you said, motive does not need to be proved. But you gotta somehow make a connection here

because the randomness of this is the thing that's going to be most troubling to people. The biggest question mark in people's heads is why in the world would he pick these three girls and one gentleman in a house that he doesn't live near, that he doesn't have a connection to them, doesn't go to class with them, doesn't work with them? It just starts to create questions and as you know, questions can lead to doubt and then you start to have problems. We know Coburger was rehashing what happened at that pool party because thanks to our friends over at NBC Dateline, we actually hear from a woman

that he contacted after the pool party in a very awkward text exchange. Listen, one of Coburger's WSU classmates met Coburger at a pool party and had a few awkward exchanges with him. Holly tells Coburger about a hiking group and the two exchange numbers so Coburger can get involved. Holly receives one text from Coburger once again asking about the hiking group. Holly now grateful she never responded. It was almost overly formal.

I really enjoy that activity. So, you know, can you follow up with me about about that? From our friends at Incident. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Coburger's internet search history allegedly includes Ted Bundy, as well as non-consensual sex pornography. In the weeks before the murders, Coburger's internet search history allegedly includes Ted Bundy, as well as non-consensual sex pornography. In the weeks before the murders, Coburger searched porn using keywords forced, passed out, drugged, and sleeping.

Coburger's Bundy search might have related to his job as a teacher's assistant, or maybe he was looking for his mother's op-ed about Bundy. Coburger's phone history reveals days before his arrest, he searches for Britney Spears' song, Criminal. Okay, that doesn't really make any sense. So he's looking up porn, Dr. Bethany. Non-consensual sex. Rape. Pornography. That's right. He's looking at rape porn. Okay, that's what that's called. He's looking up Ted Bundy. I mean, I've looked Ted Bundy up maybe what,

a million times, so, you know. And he's a criminologist, so I'm okay with Ted Bundy search. But non-consensual rape porn, looking at porn where the woman, where the rape is, quote, forced, where the woman is passed out, drugged, or sleeping? No. Help me out, Bethany. And then these goals and Ethan are attacked in their sleep? What? Yes. Remember the Max Factor error? He had that same deviant arousal pattern. He took all these videos of himself with women passed out in his bed and he was making these

creepy movements over them. So Nancy, when somebody comes into my office who's had a brush with the law that there's an intersection between that and sex and assault, or they have a deviant arousal pattern, I always ask them, what type of pornography do you look at? And then who are you in the scenario or the vignette you're watching? Are you the passive person? Are you the active person?

Are you the person who's watching? And it gives me a great deal of insight into the deviant arousal pattern. In this case, he needs his victims unaware of what he's doing. He wants to rape them when they don't know he's there and I'm guessing he wants to rape them. So is this the kind of person who could really graduate in his offending pattern to even more serious crimes like necrophilia, you know, abuse of a corp,

something where the sex assault victim does not know that he's committing the crime, so he has complete power and control over them. Okay, you know, Ritter, you better put your defense hat back on. There's really no coming back from a guy suspected of murdering four people, suspected of murdering four people, three girls that live in the home, in their sleep, while hours before he is looking up rape porn where the victims are passed out, drugged, and or sleeping. Good luck with that, Ritter. Well, I mean, what I will say is, OK, the porn, though disturbing, what does that have to do with the crime scene? Other than you're saying that the targets of the crime are females, is there allegations

of sexual assault? And passed out? And asleep? And allegations that he made them unconscious. I mean, the fact that a crime scene happens to have four females or three females, pardon me again, and one male that are believed to be sleeping and maybe we're finding out not now is somehow we're going to tether a nexus between that and the idea that he was looking up disturbing porn. I just don't, listen, the disturbing porn bothers me, the crime scene bothers me. I just don't, listen, the disturbing porn bothers me,

the crime scene bothers me. I just don't see the connection between the two. If the prosecution is going to try to, you know, thread that needle, I think they're going to have a tough time convincing jurors of the same thing. Dr. Bethany Marshall helped me out because Ritter is dancing all around the fact that this guy was obviously sexually frustrated. He keeps trying to connect with women. He can't. He had a horrible record back home. Remember, he got kicked out of a bar for asking women where they lived and telling one woman

he, one woman had a date with him and he told her she had great breeder's hips. I mean, he obviously has a problem connecting with women. And you know, that must have frustrated him no end, taking pictures of girls in their swimsuits. Freaky. But the connection between looking up, just before the murders, rape porn, where the women are drugged, passed out, or asleep, and, quote, forced his search.

Not my words, his. And these girls being targeted, what he thought was going to be in their sleep, in their sleep, girls that he had connected to, I believe, online. Whether he had any conversation with them online, I don't know. But friends of girls at the pool party. He's a criminologist. He knows better than to attack anyone he just met at a pool party. It would be too obvious. Get it? There is, there's a connection here. I get it. One possible victim led to another, maybe like somebody who's trolling the streets

for a certain type, and they see a sex worker who's out there. And so they're not gonna target that victim. They're gonna befriend that victim and learn who that victim's friends are, right? They're gonna go down the rabbit hole of people who are more and more obscure and unidentifiable. But Nancy, when offenders offend, they look at the type of porn that's going to prime them for the offense.

Pedophiles will look at pictures of children online. Rapists will look at assault. Men who want to commit murder, homicide will look at maybe college students or maybe Ted Bundy. So looking at the pornography that the offender is using to arouse themselves ahead of time, that is so vital and so important. Hopefully a forensic psychologist will be on the stand to testify to this. We can't ignore that he's looking up Ted Bundy and girls being attacked in their sleep and Ted Bundy's most infamous crime is attacking the

sleeping sorority girls at the Chi Omega house in their sleep. What am I speaking a foreign language here? Is anybody getting this? He's looking up Bundy. He's looking up porn, rape porn, where the girls are, the victims are asleep, drug passed out, and that's what Bundy did. And we can't ignore Joe Scott Morgan that he's looking at Ted Bundy and girls being attacked in their sleep. And Ted Bundy's most infamous crime is attacking the sleeping sorority girls at the Chi Omega house in their sleep.

What, am I speaking a foreign language here? Is anybody getting this? He's looking up Bundy, he's looking up porn, rape porn where the girls are, the victims are asleep, drug passed out. And that's what Bundy did. Yeah, he did. However, going back to the photo, Nancy, the hoodie photo that we mentioned off the top, one of the names that came to mind with me was Ted Kaczynski with Unabomber.

You know, Kaczynski had a PhD in mathematics as well as a master's degree and was very bright, socially awkward, those sorts of things. And probably, and I think if you read through his statements that he made, he saw himself as above everybody else, that everybody else were these kind of groundlings that were out there that were not worthy of his time. It seems to me that there's kind of a pattern with this and the destructive nature of what Unibobber did, you know, kind of, it came out of the blue. You think about this attack at night where people are asleep, this is out of the blue. This guy thinks he's going to escape and not be caught. It's the height

of arrogance. So, you know, I think that, yeah, Bundy, yeah, he was a law student, a failed law student. I don't think that Coburger intellectually would see himself at that level. He would raise it the bar higher, probably more like the Unabomber. To Howard Bloom, the coincidences are startling Coincidences are startling that he is searching Bundy and then he starts searching rape porn where the victims are passed out asleep or drugged and then these girls, much like the Ted Bundy victims, are sorority girls living in a house, he believes, that are all going to be asleep when he enters. Is it just a coincidence or is it something that a jury will decide to send a man to the firing squad? Now, going even to the pool party pictures, when I was interviewing people who attended the pool party

and I was trying to get a sense of who was there, one of the first things they did was show me pictures of women in bathing suits that they had on their phone and said, these are the women who were there. You should check them out. They too had pictures of women at the pool party on their phone. Can I speak to Bloom? Bloom, did they also then go that night to friends of the women at the pool party and start stalking their home in the dark of night. Did they also look up rape porn where the victims were in bed asleep before the entire time?

Everything you're saying, you're bringing a case against them. It might turn out to be true, but I'm also saying- I'm asking you a question because you're suggesting it's physical incidents and everybody at the pool party did the same thing. Well, they didn't. No, I'm suggesting- He did. and everybody in the pool party did the same thing. Well, they did it. No, I'm suggesting that a good defense attorney will raise all these questions to a jury

and a jury will then have to decide based on these questions, is this enough to send a man in front of a firing squad? No, that is not the law. The law is the jury will determine if it's enough to convict him. This will be a bifurcated trial and once there is a conviction then they will decide the sentence. In fact the jury will be instructed in death penalty cases they are not to consider the death penalty. They have to consider guilt or innocence first. And I hardly think these photos are going to send them to the firing squad.

It's going to be as DNA man on the night. Under the victim's body. That's the interesting question is the DNA and what the defense is going to say. How did the DNA get there? And that's what they're going to try to argue. But all these other issues of the photos, I think are immaterial and irrelevant to the trial. And that's why I think the charges against it.

Yeah, tell that to the victim's families. And now we remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Andrew Peary, El Paso County Sheriff's Colorado, shot and killed in the line of duty. A US Army vet he leaves behind grieving wife Megan and two beautiful children sentenced to life without their father. American hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Peary. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart podcast.