Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - KOHBERGER IN ISOLATION, "SPORTY" NEW LOOK FOR TRIAL?

Episode Date: October 3, 2024

As Judge John Judge reviewed the motion for a change of venue, he made the tough decision to move the trial to Ada County. Now, the Idaho State Supreme Court has designated Boise, nearly 300 miles from the crime scene, as the new location. The Supreme Court cited the large jury pool, courtroom accommodations, and less saturation of prejudicial media as factors in their decision. In accordance with Judge Judge’s wishes, the case was also remanded to Judge Steven Hippler. Kohberger was secretly transferred to the Ada County Jail on an Idaho State Police plane. The Latah and Ada County sheriffs decided to work with State Police to make the transfer as safe and efficient as possible. The 6-hour drive from Moscow to Boise presented several potential complications, such as a blown tire or road closures. The 2-hour early morning flight mitigated those concerns and went smoothly, according to Ada County Sheriff’s Captain Ryan Jensen. Bryan Kohberger is being held in the maximum-security section of the Ada County Jail in one of its 88 solitary cells. He reportedly will not receive any additional security, following the same procedures used in recent high-profile cases. All inmates receive either a mainline, vegan, or kosher meal delivered to their cell three times a day. Due to overcrowding, with the jail operating at or above 92% capacity, many inmates sleep on the floor. Inmates are allowed to purchase snacks and other small items from the commissary once a week. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Brian Stewart - Attorney at Parker & McConkie, Gabby Petito’s Family Attorney; Instagram: parkermcconkie   Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst, Author – “Deal Breaker,”  featured in hit show: “Paris in Love” on Peacock;, Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive Chris McDonough – Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room” IIrv Brandt – Senior Inspector, US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch; Chief Inspector, DOJ Office of International Affairs, US Embassy Kingston, Jamaica; Author: “SOLO SHOT: CURSE OF THE BLUE STONE” – AVAILABLE ON AMAZON IN JANUARY; ALSO “FLYING SOLO: Top of the World;” X: @JackSoloAuthor Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter/X: @JoScottForensic Andrea Cavallier - Senior Reporter, The Independent; X: @acavallierNYC IG: @acavallier FB: https://www.facebook.com/acavallier   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Koberger charged in the murders of four beautiful university students, now in isolation with a sporty new look for trial,ending so-called fans over the edge. Who are these people? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

My niece called. And she was very frantic. And she was asking me if I had talked to Kaylee. Kaylee's phone goes directly to voicemail circling Maddie. Nobody's answering. It's ringing, ringing, ringing, ringing. We turn on the TV and then we see live news coverage at Kaylee and Maddie are both dead. A quadruple homicide. When I hear that, parents being informed their child is dead, not from a car accident, which is bad enough, not some other type of accident, but murdered in their own bed, their own home you send your child away to college with all these hopes and dreams all your love all your energy all

your money everything you've poured into that child to hear that and now I've got to hear the man charged in four murders, a quadruple homicide, has a, quote, sporty new look. Can I see the mugshot, please? Look at this. That's right. Brian Koberger's new mugshot seemingly tantalizing his so-called fans. How can there even be fans of a guy charged in four murders, in brutal murders? Murder, bad enough.

But you have, for instance, the D.C. snipers who shoot at a distance. The people are never even, the victim's not even real to them. And then you have somebody like Koberger, allegedly, who up close and personal reassures his victim, I'm here to help. And then guts them like an animal at the slaughterhouse. Him. A sporty, new look. My rear end. But you've got to see what his fans are saying. There are a lot of Facebook pages and other pages devoted to Koberger. This is real. Is this real? He's so handsome, hot, like a movie star.

Why is he not smiling? He looks like a zaddy, which is a hot man, charismatic. And the look of confidence, I'm not seeing any stress. I can tell you one thing. I don't want them on my jury. What? He looks handsome, hot like a movie star. He's a zaddy. The look of confidence. I'm not seeing any stress. I just happened to pick those comments. They go on and on and on. I just, has anybody seen the crime scene photos? That home on King's Road, if you looked at it from the outside, there is literally blood pouring down the side of the foundation. Oh, okay. Joining me in all-star panel to help me make sense of what I am hearing,

but straight out to renowned psychoanalyst joining us from Beverly Hills, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock. Dr. Bethany Marshall. Dr. Bethany, I know you've done some very intensive analysis with me on how women fall for somebody like this. It's as old as Charles Manson and his followers, people that fell in love and married the Menendez brothers, who thought Ted Bundy was really cute. What is wrong with these people? It only emboldens Koberger. You know, Nancy, what illuminated this topic the most to me was an important prison study where they interviewed women who were in love with famous inmates like the Mendez brothers,

Richard Ramirez, the night stalker, the pillow strangler. And what they found were two things. One is that the women refused to put their thoughts together about the crime. They had never read the men's rap sheets. They insisted that they did not know the realities of the case. On the other hand, many of these women actually took secret pleasure in the crime, thought that the women had it coming to them, or that in the case of the Menendez brothers, that the parents deserve to be shot. So these fanatics, Nancy, I would guess that they're taking pleasure in the crime. They think those kids had it coming to them. These are not nice people. They're idealizing Koberger, almost like one would idealize an evil cult figure.

Let me go to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, host of a new hit series, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Excuse me, Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, your resume is as long as I-75. But what matters to me the most is that you are a death investigator and you have literally investigated thousands of death scenes. OK, you heard what Dr. Bethany just said. And you have literally investigated thousands of death scenes. Okay. You heard what Dr. Bethany just said. Did you know, Joe Scott, you probably don't because you're actually working and busy.

Did you know that there are multiple, for instance, Facebook groups set up to support Brian Koberger? Not support the families of these victims, not them. No, not the family of Ethan Chapin, of Zanna Cronodal, Madison Morgan, Madison Mogan and Kelly Gonsalves. No, not to support them, but to support Koberger. Let me ask you a question real quick, Nancy. Did you know that blood actually has an aroma of its own? And when you walk into a scene...

But is that rhetorical or do you want to answer? Yes. I've been to enough homicide scenes where just the smell, it reeks. Yeah, I've often described it as kind of a sickly, sweet, metallic smell. And once that gets into your brain, once you see physically see it and you experience that, you know, just from a visual standpoint, you take you take measure of what happened in these environments. I would say that these individuals that would, you know, bow at the feet of someone like this or promote them in any way have never heard the screams of families. They've never been witness to an absolute slaughter before

because if they had, if they had, they would not be so quick to support someone that is even, that it's even being implied that they may have had something to do with this this this is beyond the pale it's disgusting on so many levels because they don't understand what true pain is describe and this is with the backdrop of fan pages that's what they are fan pages set up to support Brian Kober. And don't worry, he'll get his mitts on a tablet just like Murdoch did with his shirtless selfies. He's going to go online. He's going to see this so-called fandom, this fan support.

The reality of that crime scene should make everybody tuck their tail between their legs and run for the hills. Explain. Yeah, when you see the scene, and we will, and those that will be present on this jury eventually will, and they take the measure of the horror of that, I think a lot of people are going to look back retrospectively, maybe those that support an individual like this and say, what in the hell was I thinking at the time? Or maybe they don't. Maybe they don't have an expectation of peace and safety.

I don't know that people will be able to fully appreciate it because it is going to be the stuff of the worst horror movies we could ever do. I think what Dr. Bethany said is correct. And as I say so often when I'm making a legal argument, let's follow your comment through to its logical conclusion. Bethany just told us, Joe Scott, that a lot of these fangirls are not thinking through. Oh, he's so handsome. Oh, he's a zaddy. He's a hottie.

Blah, blah, blah. Okay, you bring him home. Let him come to your house. Wait till you get that blank stare looking at you late one night. So they're not thinking through this guy that they are accolading online and crushing on. They're not thinking through who he really is and what he's really accused of. Okay, everybody, brace for impact. Not only has Koberger sported a new look,

but he's also demanding a special wardrobe. Listen to Steve Gonsalves. This isn't a wall of color crime, people. This is people you work your whole life to get them to go to college. Everybody has a dream of their children going to college. You trust the community, you trust the school, you send them off, and then they get killed while they're asleep that night. In their beds.

And we're going to treat this guy like he just traded insider trading of his own company stocks. It's not white collar. The Gonsalves family speaking to our friend with us now, Chris McDonough. But listen, there's more. The person who did this crime looked at one of the victims and said, I'm here to help you. If that's not malice, that's the most type of evil that you could ever hear of. That shouldn't be rewarded with a suit.

And a fresh haircut every time that's wild that's wild we've been told that he does have shackles around his knees or whatnot but it's like you know that's i don't i don't want to be hit crime stories with nancy grace Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Demanding a special wardrobe. Joining me, renowned attorney Brian Stewart. Joining us, attorney Parker McConkle. Just so you know, the Gabby Petito family lawyer.

Brian, thank you for being with us. You know, I would never let a defendant, even though I knew they were completely guilty, go into court wearing prison blues, prison orange, stripes, handcuffs, shackles, nothing in front of a jury. I wouldn't even risk it with them walking down the hallway in case a juror was wandering around. Why? Believe it or not, you can get a reversal for that. Probably not a reversal, but it's possible. And in a death penalty case, yeah, you're looking at a reversal. So I would keep in my office clothes and in different sizes, jackets, all blue jackets for the defendant to put on if he didn't have street clothes to protect, God willing, my guilty verdict. But really, a whole

new wardrobe? What in the hay? Well, I think that it's totally expected and normal that the defense attorney would want Brian to be able to appear in street clothes. It's the impression that he gives to the judge and then later the jury is really important. And he doesn't want to be dressed like a criminal or a prisoner. And I would anticipate that the judge will grant that motion and let him wear street clothes. The judge will want to bend over backwards to be fair to remove Basies for appeal. And so I would definitely expect him to allow Brian to wear street clothes at trial. So that doesn't seem strange to me. I noticed you said Brian. I guess you're on a first name basis now. That's right.

You heard me right. The Idaho student murder suspect, Brian Koberger, has petitioned the judge for a courtroom wardrobe exception. It's bringing to mind another defendant. Delvey, aka Anna Sorokin, the fake heiress that built friends and associates out of well over a quarter million dollars, well, she threw a wrench at the judge. Listen. Anna Sorokin's legal team not only begged that Sorokin be allowed to change out of her jail uniform for trial, but even hired a professional stylist to dress the fake heiress. Sorokin wears designer dresses and suits for a majority of the trial, but when her defense attorneys provide more affordable outfits from H&M or Ann Taylor, Sorokin throws a fit and refuses to attend court. The judge orders Sorokin to appear for court anyway. The judge orders Sorokin to appear for court anyway, and her white blouse and black

slack ensemble is added to the Instagram page at Anna Delphi Court Looks. Does anybody see what's happening here? Anna Sorokin, the fake heiress who built friends and associates out of well over a quarter million dollars, who just was on Dancing with the Stars and whined about it, saying Dancing with the Stars took advantage of her for fame. Girl, you are not famous. You are infamous. That said, the trend, everything she wore, showed up on a highly traveled Instagram page. And now, Koberger has legions of Facebook fans and more. Joining me, a senior investigative reporter with The Independent, Andrea Cavalier. Andrea, thank you for being with us. My ears are bleeding from what I am hearing. Facebook support groups, a special wardrobe, a sporty new look that makes him look like a zaddy. Has the world turned upside down, Cavalier?

The man is charged with four bloody knife murders. Yeah, yeah. It's disgusting. We get comments all the time. If we post a picture, when we posted the mugshot, you know, people went crazy. They loved the look. And him showing up in court going, you know, he wants to be in street clothes. He wants to be in a suit. It makes sense, you know, and we're still going to be getting those comments about his look. Joining me is now a longtime friend and colleague. You can find him where he created the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective and host of a YouTube channel where I first found him on this case, The Interview Room on YouTube, Chris McDonough. Chris, just hearing the Gonsalves family speaking, it just makes me feel ill. And the fact that they are having to

fundraise money to get to the trial, a trial that's going to last at least six weeks, and support themselves to be there. I'm going to tell you a story I was just talking about this morning. When my fiance was murdered, this is, everybody knows that story, but this is, I never thought of it that much, but we would travel every day to the trial over two hours, closer to three hours, one way. And my father, who worked for the railroad, and my mom, who was the payroll clerk, would

take off work. I mean, I was completely out of it. I already dropped out of school. And it was a blur to me. I would be in the back seat. It's seriously a blur. I would occasionally look up. I would be in the back seat. It's seriously a blur. I would occasionally look up. I wouldn't know where we were.

And I'd just start crying again. I had to lay down in the back seat. And we get to the courthouse. I don't even remember going in. I can't remember. It's just a horrible blur. And I'm thinking, that was my fiance. But now I have children.

Imagine them having to raise money, leave their home, leave their jobs, leave their friends, their other family and go to Boise, find a place to live and go to that God forsaken courtroom every day to look at crime scene photos of their child slaughtered. I mean, did anyone think about that before they granted a change of venue? Apparently not, Nancy. And, and, you know, the depth of that pain, as you know, and what the parents are going through, and I'm just not talking about, you know, Christie and Steve, I'm talking about all of the parents. There are eight of them. And to my opinion, in terms of not hearing the totality of the argument that the state should have taken on and say, look, this is a hardship on all of these people. Let's consider that heavily. And do you know what came out of that hearing and what came out of that decision? Judge Judge said in the decision,

we're not equipped to handle this case. Oh, my gosh. Where were you for a year and a half? You could have fixed it quickly and then the parents could have prepared. I understand having tried capital cases before the importance of an impartial jury. And I'm going to get to that. It's not just a factual issue. It's a legal issue. And I've had to make very hard decisions when it comes to changing venue decisions I didn't like. But I want to talk about right now what this is doing to the victim's family. Then I'll get into the legalities and the transport of Koberger. Dr. Bethany Marshall helped me out here.

I mean, even remembering that ride, which a lot of it I don't remember, even remember that, remembering that ride to the courthouse for case murder trial is just very upsetting. But then when I overlay what these families are going through, it's their child. I mean, in my world, I made it very clear to my husband, poor David, that once they came, they are number one. They are the focus, my reason for living. And I'm sure these families felt the same way. Did I tell you I met Ethan's mom at the last CrimeCon? I thought I recognized her. She was coming down a long hallway to come speak to me. I was meeting with Johnny Depp's lawyer and she struck me because she's beautiful, but she seemed to have an inner light about her. She just kind of like glowed. And she is at a very, I don't want to say peaceful, but she's at a spot

where she's trying to help other people, or at least she was at that juncture that could change through all of this. But I imagine all of their will just being crushed out of them just to get to the courthouse on top of everything else they've got to deal with. You know, Nancy, there is so much wrong about this entire situation, how this court case is being managed. First of all, it's traumatic enough just in and of itself that they're going to have to look at those crime scene photos. Did you know that one of the hallmarks of post-traumatic stress is avoiding seeing anything that reminds you of the original crime? They're going to have to do quite the opposite. They're going to have to view the crime scene photos day after day. They're going to have the stress of financial difficulty

because they've had to raise money. There's something even more sinister, Nancy, and that is that I believe Brian Koberger is enjoying this and the family is going to have to watch him smile. Did you notice that when he sits next to the blonde attorney, he looks to her every once in a while and he has a little smile, almost like he's on a date. This perp loved being surrounded by crime. He studied crime. He taught crime. He was obsessed with crime.

Now, where is he? He's in a court of law. This is his heyday. This is his payday. He is achieving what he wanted. This is like being on a date for him. Remember, Brian Koberger was kicked out of a bar for approaching women. Women around him thought he was creepy. He's not going to get kicked out of the courtroom, Nancy. He can sit there in his

street club, flirt with the attorneys, and just enjoy the proceedings. That's what the family is going to have to witness. Brian Koberger's defense team conducted a phone survey of hundreds of potential jurors in Latah County, asking them multiple questions about their knowledge of the case. According to the defense team, there is a bias against Koberger revealed in answers to questions such as, what would happen if Koberober is not convicted. Potential jurors in Latah County answered that question with they'd burn the courthouse down. Outrage would be a mild description. They would probably find him and kill him. And there would likely be a riot and he wouldn't last long outside because someone would do the good old boy justice. And

finally, riots. Parents would take care of him. Now, let me remind everyone that those threats to kill Koberger, if there's not a guilty verdict, were harvested by his defense in an inappropriate juror polling phone call that a questionnaire of sorts that was sent to potential jurors. And those are some of the answers they say that they got that the people of Moscow would storm the courthouse like an angry mob, basically drag Koberger out and kill him. Do I think that would happen? No. But confronted with that evidence that was generated by the defense in support of their change of venue motion, the judge granted it.

But before we put the cart before the horse, before we get to the trial in Boise, the defendant, Brian Koberger, is in Boise. How did he get there? Listen. Koberger is secretly transferred to the Ada County Jail on an Idaho state police plane. Lata and Ada County sheriffs say they decided to work with the state police to make the transfer as safe and efficient as possible. The six-hour drive to Boise presented plenty of opportunity for complications like a blown tire or road closures. The two-hour early morning flight mitigated those concerns and went smoothly, according to Ada County Sheriff's Captain Ryan Jensen. Joining us now is an expert in prisoner location and transport. Irv Brandt is with us, former senior inspector, U.S. Marshal Service, International Investigations Branch.

I emphasize that for a reason. Formerly with DOJ, Office of International Affairs. He's been an attache to other countries for the U.S., including Kingston, Jamaica, and more. Latest book, Forever Solo, Night of the Dragon in his Jack Solo series. Gee, I wonder who that's patterned after. Irv Brandt, let me understand something. Did Brian Koberger get flown to Boise in a private plane? What?

Did he get a ginger ale and a bag of peanuts to go with that? What did they ask him? Beef or chicken? Did he go in a private plane? Nancy, he went with a plane that was owned by the state police. And to answer your questions, no peanuts, no in-flight dinner, no in-flight movies. He was shackled, leg irons, waist chains, probably body armor since they do have some kinds of threats against them. But this is the county's correctional divisions work with the state police.

And the county correctional divisions have what's called the Correctional Emergency Response Team, CERT officers. And they're highly trained in this type of prisoner movement. They'll also be there for the trial. You may not see them, but they're there. They're there to protect everyone, including the judge, the jurors, the witnesses. And they are experts in this field. Change of venue is not uncommon. And they handle these types of matters all the time. You know, Dr. Bethany, I'm listening to Irv Brandt, a U.S. Marshal, who's transported hardened criminals, murderers, dope lords, you name it, all over the world and flown

with them. The last thing we want is, for instance, a courthouse escape or a transport escape. All you have to do is go on to Google and look, put in prisoner transport escape. It just goes on and on page four, page five, page six. It happens all the time, especially when they're in a vehicle of any sort, just through trickery, through force, they get away. But I assume Dr. Bethany that you don't want them on a private, I mean, a commercial plane. There's always, uh, have you noticed people get lulled into a false sense of complacency? They're watching their in-flight movie. They're working. They're this, they're that.

Why Bethany do they in the movies always let the person go to the bathroom. Don't they know something bad is going? I'm like, wet yourself. You're not going to the bathroom. Don't care. Why? That's when the scary music starts playing. Yeah. You know, Nancy, he's not going to the bathroom on this plane. I can tell you that much for sure. From what Irv Brandt is saying, you know, the security is so tight. Here's what I'm concerned about, though. Whenever there's a prison break or somebody breaks out of a prison van, you know how it happens

is that they've seduced somebody in the prison system or on the outside to help them. A famous case comes to mind of a prison nurse who fell in love with an inmate. They plotted together to have him escape. And it

was when he was being transferred to court, she brought guns and she shot one of the officers that was putting him into the car. That was a couple of decades ago. I remember covering that story. So Nancy, you know, who knows Brian Koberger? We have all these strange, weird fanatics who thinks he's handsome and he's like a rock star. And now he's getting on a plane. I would just be concerned about who's in his sphere, who's in his orbit, who is he communicating with, who might want to collude in some kind of a breakout of sorts. So, Irv Brandt, I guess you don't give the accused killer a potty break. No, Nancy, you don't.

And it doesn't matter how long the flight is. Like I said, I've come from South America straight up, you know, into New York, into the Northeast. And you just have to deal with it.

Marshall, I have to go to the bathroom. Hold it. We'll be in New York in seven hours. Hold it. We'll be in New York in seven hours. Hold it. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A million people can tell me, don't let it consume you. Be patient.

Don't think about it. Just, you know, but I am me. I am, I can't. This is my daughter. This is her best friend. This is two other people, kids. And I, you can tell me till the cows come home and I can't stop just being consumed by it. I don't know how the parents were staying so strong.

Did you hear that Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us out of Beverly Hills, author now on Peacock. That was Christy Gonzalves speaking. Did you notice that she says, this is my daughter? Yes. That's what she's saying. It was my daughter in a way, not acknowledging. Oh, it's making my head hurt.

That her beautiful girl is dead. You know, for the longest time, I couldn't say Keith is dead. Dead. The D-E-A-D word. It's just too much. And now they're dealing with having to raise money online to go live in Boise, the duration of the trial, having to put with, with Koberger being a zaddy online and having Facebook fans. I don't see any Facebook fans for the victims, but did you, did you catch that?

What she just said? Yes, Nancy. I did notice that she's speaking about her daughter. Like she's still alive, but her daughter is alive in her mind. She has a duty to her daughter. She wants to find out what happened. She wants to bring justice for her daughter. You know, I've said so many times on this show, when we grieve, it's not just the loss of the past. It's the loss of the future, of what you anticipated you would have with that person. She'll never see her daughter get married. She'll never have granddaughters or grandsons with her daughter. She'll never see her get into her career. Her mind is struggling to come to terms with the loss of that future that she's been dreaming of from the day her daughter was born. And now she's having to

struggle to come up with money to drive to court. Do you know the type of fragility that introduces into all of us when we're financially stressed? And this on top of a court case, it's really a tragedy and a travesty that the location was changed. On top of it all, and listen, I understand why the judge changed the location. If he, she, the judge does not change a location where there have been, there's been evidence of threats on the defendant in that location. You are looking at a big fat reversal on appeal, which means the family would go through all of this pain, move to Boise for the duration, suffer. And then if there is a conviction, you're looking at a reversal. So I believe as much as I don't like it, that the judge did what he had to do. This had to be moved. But do I have to hear

about Koberger's new look and his privileges behind bars? Listen. Brian Koberger is held in the maximum security section of the Ada County Jail in one of its 88 solitary cells. Koberger reportedly will not have any additional security following the same procedures for recent high-profile cases. All inmates receive a mainline, vegan, or kosher meal to their cell three times a day. The jail has recently cut down their menu as it operates at or above 92% capacity. Many inmates sleep on the floor due to the overcrowding. Inmates are permitted to purchase snacks and other small items from the commissary once a week. What? He's got a private room?

You don't even get that in college at fancy, exclusive Ivy League colleges. A private room? Brian Stewart, high-profile lawyer joining us out of Idaho. What? Why does he get a private room? Why don't I just book him at the Ritz? Well, having a private room in jail is not necessarily a good thing or an enjoyable thing. It makes it easier for the jail for sure to maintain security for Kohlberger and for the other inmates. And having him mixed with other people in the population is just going to create a problem for them and a security issue.

So I would imagine that it's mostly for the convenience of the jail and the people who work there. You know what, Brian Stewart? I see why you win so many cases. You totally, maybe you should be on Dancing with the Stars, not Anna Sorkin, a.k.a. Delvey. He's danced right around. He has a private room.

And did you see what we were just showing? It's kind of like their co-op area where they're all sitting around having snacks. A couple of people snoozing on the side on sofa pallets. I mean, and has anybody beside me seen the commissary list? Let's see it, control room. Let's see if you can put that up on the screen. There you go. Item bundles. Hmm. What's that? Tuna, shredded chicken, salami sticks. I would like that. I would like somebody to bring me some Cheetos, some ramen, pretzels, chips, Twix, Snickers. Okay, not Snickers, blueberry Danish.

They could probably get heated up. Let me please call on you again, Professor of Forensics. Can you remind me about how fresh that crime scene was? It's brutal. The you're you know, when these images come out and when we actually hear these crime scene texts give testimony relative to this, they're going to talk about, I don't know, one of the terms that's probably going to come to mind is like a super saturated mattress that's saturated with blood. You're going to see blood deposition on the floor of the walls and not to mention the horror that will be displayed,

on display, on each, on the bodies of each one of these precious children, you know, that are now gone. And I take exception with what I've seen in the news, because relative to descriptions of these injuries, they talk about, well, they were stabbed. And I know that's very, that has a certain economy to it when you write it, but they're not just stabbed, Nancy. They're slashed. As a matter of fact, this poor one child had her hand cut all the way down to the ligaments in her hand. So don't tell me about freshening up. Don't tell me about, you know, honey buns and all these other things. It's absolutely disgusting. But the truth is going to come out and it's going to come out at trial.

I don't feel like we're even close to a trial date. I know that when they do, it's going to be far away, but I don't even think they're close to setting it. And it eats me alive. We're trying to determine when the court date is going to be. There's all over the map. The judge is even thinking about a bifurcated trial where part of the case is presented in May and the other part is presented in September. Hey, judge, that's a bad idea. That is unfair to the state because by the time the defense starts, the jury will have forgotten everything the state said back in May. Don't do that. That said, to Andrea Cavalier, investigative reporter with The Independent. Andrea, what more can you tell me about the preparations for trial?

That's right. At this moment, the trial is set to start in June, but there have been talks about, you know, the judges thinking about, you know, the jurors and the families and, you know, being away for three months during the summer. It's possible it could start in May. It's possible it could start in September. But as for preparations, getting to Boise for these families, There's always going to be something. There are Airbnbs and hotels, but they are filling up. I see Joe Scott Morgan nodding his head. What do you mean, Joe Scott? Well, what I mean is that one of the rationales for moving this case is not just security, but you think about the tainting of the pool,

that there would be perhaps in some magical alternative universe, someone in Ada County, Idaho, that would not have heard of this trial. Nancy, let me tell you something real quick. I just got back from CromCon London in the UK. I was there for 16 days traveling about the country and and met a lot of people. Guess what the number one case was that they asked me about in London was? It was Idaho. They all wanted to know. There's nowhere you can go under the sun that someone has not heard about this trial. So the idea that, you know, you're going to find a group of people in Boise that have not heard about this

case is absolutely ridiculous to my way of thinking, because it's everywhere. It's everywhere. And one other thing, very quickly, I remember the Derek Chauvin case. I covered it for 18 straight days on air every single day. And I saw even those jurors coming in for the voir dire. It was a circus. It was an absolute circus with the news media there. The same thing is going to happen here. You're going to see these people coming in and out of the court, the jury pool, and they're going to have an idea of what they're faced with if they get on this jury. So I don't know. I just don't understand the rationale for it all. Chris McDonough, how did it get so bass-ackwards from Facebook fan pages supporting Koberger to private iPad, vegan meals, endless hours of visitation with his lawyer,

a sporty new look, a private wardrobe. How did all this happen? You know, Nancy, that is the million dollar question today for our society. I think, you know, one of the biggest problems here, in my opinion, is the threat level for Brian Koberger actually went up because they have moved him to a larger jail facility they've thrown him in the hole i.e the shoe okay and he's going to have to start thinking about dodging socks full of bars of soap because these inmates are going to look at him and get cred what they call cred you know credibility if they can beat him with those bars of soaps and those socks, then by golly, now those jailers have to be thinking, how do we keep

them away from the main line? Just like this picture right here. How do we keep them away from this room? And that puts the officers at risk. That puts the court at risk because somebody right now is thinking about Brian Kober, not only on the outside, but on the inside. And that's why this guy is locked down with his honey bun snack options. We wait for the judge to finally schedule the trial so justice can unfold in a court of law. But now we stop and remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Andrew Peary, El Paso County Sheriff's Colorado, shot and killed in the line of duty. A U.S. Army vet survived by wife Megan and two children. American hero, Deputy Sheriff Andrew Peary. Thank you to all of our guests for joining us, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.